Originally Posted by Sekosche
So are you running all your isos up front and MA’s in the back?
I just went with 4x4 silicone isos front/back, but I also leave both MA’s under the MLP. I guess I could take the two isos off that are in the back right where two isos are, but I wanted some couch stability for when I move it. Maybe it would be better to only have that corner resting on just the MA’s.
Yes, i am. I have all iso’s in front and all MA’s in the rear. But i had a 4x MA setup and now have 2x3 stack setup. As me an Aron discussed earlier, if you have a 2x MA setup, it might be better to have i like you have it now, with iso’s in the rear on each side of a MA, to lighten the load. So, with just 2x MA setup i see no reason to have all iso’s in the front. However you might still gain from using 8 up front, but i would actually leave the rear iso’s you currently have where they are
Originally Posted by aron7awol
Thanks for the additional detailed data! I was out all day yesterday and only got to look at the data from my phone, but now I'm going to look at it again in detail and share my thoughts on the data and also how it compares to my impressions from my testing and some of my previous guesses based on theory of what's at play with these different approaches...
White noise 0-50:
8 looks better than 4 <20Hz, with a very minor drop in Z but a big bump in Y and a bit in X. But then >30Hz 4 has more Y involvement. This matches my impressions that 8 gave me more bounce, but it makes sense that up top the additional damping of 8 absorbs a bit of output.
4 looks to have quite a bit more X and Y than 8 from ~10-25Hz, otherwise they are very similar. This is an interesting contrast to the results with the WN.
8 looks a bit better in the single-digits than 4, but they are very close. The difference in peaks >10Hz that you referred to as ringing I think is harmonic distortion, which may suggest that the movement with 8 is actually more linear (at least at 6Hz) and thus lower in THD.
4 and 8 look extremely similar here, although in this case 8 appears to have a bit more distortion at 30Hz, and 4 appears to have a bit more distortion at 45Hz. 30Hz is a perfect octave of the fundamental 15Hz, so distortion there is much more desirable than the odd harmonic of 45Hz, so I'll give the edge to 8 again.
I'm sure you've noticed that I haven't really referred to the stacks. This is because I agree with you that stacking is more trouble than its worth, and brings me back to one of my previous thoughts on these isos in parallel vs. series. Normally doubling identical springs in parallel would double the spring constant. However, since these isos are not linear springs and do not follow Hooke's law, the math is different because, as my compression testing showed, these isos' spring constant shows logarithmic growth with compression. So by adding more isos in parallel, we are decreasing the load/compression on each and thus decreasing the spring constant, which is still summed since they are parallel, but the net change is certainly not close to doubling as it would be with linear springs. I would like to do more detailed compression testing with a caliper and see how much the spring constant changes with a halving in load. If spring constant is halved, there would be no net change in spring constant, and if spring constant is more than halved, the net would actually be a decrease
I also didn't refer to the isos in series with the MAs. This is because your results match my impressions. They absorbed some of the output, which makes perfect sense, and I ended up increasing the gain to my MAs to compensate. But I did still really like the end result of additional bounce and resonance of the seating in the single-digits. So I think this one is a case where the data is really difficult to compare due to a resulting level difference, and so we have to go with our butt on this one. I think the isos in series with the MAs results in a more loose feel with more ringing, so it's a personal preference thing. The one difference between my full iso test and yours is I had 8 in the front and 4 in the rear while you had 4 in the front and 3 in the rear.
While I don't have BKs myself,
switched to the Hudson isos with his BK-only setup and had a huge improvement which showed up clearly on VS as well as his impressions. So they definitely seem to make a huge difference with BKs and any TR setup, really. I noticed a big difference even with my MAs off and only my FFs on, just with the pressure waves from my ported monsters hitting my couch and/or the suspended floor bouncing and that all translating to a nice bounce in my seating with the Hudson isos. I believe these isos are really the main component of the BOSS. I don't want to get into the specifics here of the physics behind why I think that is so, but I know many of you have already read my thoughts on that and so I don't need to repeat it here
But as anyone who has put the Hudson isos under their seating knows, the difference is instantly noticeable the moment you sit down and put your weight on it.
Thanks again for all the testing! Any chance of getting some CEA-2010 burst testing as well? I think that would shed some light on some of the thoughts I've had on transient response in the different TR alignments...
Thanks for taking a look, Aron
Always appreciated. I know you like the "use the ol’ butt-o-meter" approach, but i like to have a little measurements to start with
Yes, great analysis, and i agree. Granted not many would be interested or want to use a stacked iso setup, as it is harder to do, but my take on all of this is that the stacked Crowson sorbo- iso’s was the best option from Crowson, but the Hudson is simply better in all aspects, and and altough the different options had some nuances in the measurements, i think it is safe to say that the 8 in parallel showed the best results in total. It kind of combined the pluses from the Crowsons with the best from Hudson’s, and is both easy to mount and cheap(well you need 8, but still).
This is still with a front iso only setup though.
Yes, you are right about the distorsion, i called it ringing because you used that term earlier when comparing full iso with front iso, i believe.
Yes, i agree on the full iso, actually it is nothinng wrong with the full iso graph, they look fine, only lower level. And that is what pleased me most about it, i was half expecting some horrible strange graphs because of the iso’s in series with the MA, but they looked fine.
And altough the BKs helped when i did the demo, it proved that it might actually be a very good way of having it all combined.
So yeah, more testing with content is required on the full iso config.
Originally Posted by SBuger
LOL for sure!! I've had to really be patient these days (so hard for me LOL) with getting time to do what I want with the system, let alone watch movies on it. You should see the list of good new ones that I haven't even watched yet,
knows what I'm talking about from one of our conversations the other day.
I'm hoping to be back at it soon without as much interference
, but life sometimes has a way of getting in the way, even the good stuff. Lots of travel (part of it was vacation) and then lots of company, fixing broke crap on a rental house, yada yada I'll stop there LOL Just a bunch of excuses I know. It makes me realize how much I miss my system though.
About the stacked isos, if I want to run my MAs with this BOSS (in my room and floor anyway), I have to run them on top of the platform to not kill the TR from the BOSS. So, only option is to stack them, but stabilization is not an issue because the two layers of isos are separated by the platform.
Yeah I went ahead and ordered 8 more isos yesterday to use if I need them. Which I do, I found out yesterday that 4 across the bottom is not enough with 3 seats. Its fine with 1 seat (which is what I did all my testing with so it would be easier), but all three seats squishes them down too much and a lot of TR is lost, especially from my VNFs. So now I've got 7 across the front and back vs 4 front and back.
Pretty crazy, I was running a few scenes last night back to back with MAs only and BOSS only with some content that digs super deep. They feel almost identical. There is a slight difference but I have to really be paying attention to feel it. And I think the main difference in feel is coming from the fact that the MAs are pushing against the inner frame of my seats and positioned middle back, whereas with the BOSS, only the outer feet on the seats are touching the plywood top. The MAs may have a slight edge, but maybe not. Pretty damn impressive that they can feel this similar. I probably don't even need to be running both and is a waste. I've got some decisions to make I think, just need some more time to play with it all and think about it. I think I mainly just need to figure out if I want to be sitting up this high or not, then go from there.
Sure, life gets in the way, we all have that problem, no worries, my friend.
Yes, with your combo BOSS/MA setup that would automatically include stacked iso’s so you are already there. Safely
Good call on more iso’s when more seats are installed, makes sense.
Maybe the reason you have trouble deciding on the MA’s or the BOSS is you are only using 3x JBL’s on you riser, so you are like «hmm, they are very similar" as while IF you had a 6x JBL BOSS(or more), it would be more" WOW, that’s it, the MA’s are out of here". If it is comparable to your MA’s now, wouldn’t it be logical that more drivers would be even better?
Another thing: I believe you kind of missed a step going from "conventional" MA setup to a BOSS and then ended up combined them. Me, Aron and richardsim kept the setup and just changed to the Hudson iso’s. And we all noticed a big improvement. Could it be that some of your improvements are also from just the iso’s?
And if you had done what we did, and kept your old setup, only switching out the iso’s, could it be that it ended up as good as you have it today?
Don’t get me wrong, i admire that you went for it, but i have to wonder how much difference the changes in gear did, and how much the iso’s did, since we noticed such a difference