The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 71 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2101 of 2274 Old 04-08-2019, 03:32 PM
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^^ Agreed, those hockey pucks are way too stiff, and you should notice a big improvement going to the silicone ones.

Note: it seems you have mounted the Crowson isolator the wrong way, judging from the pic. The fastening screw is NOT supposed to protrude trough the bottom like that. If would make the isolator obsolete and the couch would stand on the screw head, and not rest on the flexible isolator.

Pic below shows how it is supposed to be mounted, with the threaded insert part upwards against the couch bottom, and the screw locking that plate to the couch. That way the isolator is working as it should, using all its suspension in sync with the transducer



Not that it matter when going to silicones, just thought i should mention it
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post #2102 of 2274 Old 04-08-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^ Agreed, those hockey pucks are way too stiff, and you should notice a big improvement going to the silicone ones.



Note: it seems you have mounted the Crowson isolator the wrong way, judging from the pic. The fastening screw is NOT supposed to protrude trough the bottom like that. If would make the isolator obsolete and the couch would stand on the screw head, and not rest on the flexible isolator.



Pic below shows how it is supposed to be mounted, with the threaded insert part upwards against the couch bottom, and the screw locking that plate to the couch. That way the isolator is working as it should, using all its suspension in sync with the transducer







Not that it matter when going to silicones, just thought i should mention it


Good catch on the isolators. I will need to remount them with the screw on the upper plastic shell not all the way through!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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post #2103 of 2274 Old 04-09-2019, 06:53 AM
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ISO TEST v2.

Let’s continue

Today was more testing of the exellent Hudson Hifi’s silicone isolators in different configs:
I baselined it again the way it was last time: 4x Hudson along the front with 2 layers of MA’s in the rear. Same as last: MV -20dB, no DEQ, no EQ/flat signal, 2lb load on phone and White noise, sweep, 6and 15hz tests.

And the configs was:
4x Hudson in front.
8x Hudson in front in parallel.
8x Hudson in front in 2x4 stack.
4x Hudson in front and 3 x Hudson on top of the 2x3 MA stack= full iso config.

Data in file name as usual.

White noise shows 4 and 8 iso’s is very similar, while the stack is behind and full iso even worse.



On the sweep both 8X configs show very nice curves(very similar to the Crowson’s) and the highest numbers, slight edge to the stack here, with 4X a bit behind and more jagged curves again. And full iso last again.



6hz have all of them very close actually, small edge to 8X single layer. Notice most ringing in the 4X graph. Better summing of the axes on the stack.



15 hz show 4X and 8X very close, with the stack lagging and full iso last again.



So, it seems that 4X is a good place to start, but 8X in parallel is best in almost all the tests(even better than the Crowsons). All things considered stacking them is not recemmended, as it has no gain over 8X and is DEFENITELY harder got mount, with them being shaped like a half sphere.

Unfortunately full iso gave the worst results for the MA’s. I kind of had a feeling these tests would show that
I DID test the BK’s too in full vs front iso configs, but something happened with the levels between those tests, so i need to redo those another time, as i ran out of time to troubleshoot.

HOWEVER, i watched the start of The Meg with the full iso setup, with the submarine rescue, and Holy Testicle Tuesday!! When the submarine hull starts to implode, my jaw dropped and i actually blinked from the impact, LOL. It was soooo visceral and sudden with such a force that i really tightened up inspite of having watched it before and KNOWING it would be loud, i was flabbergasted at the difference! INSANE! And all the remotes laying on the couch got airborne !! That is THE most violent demo i have ever played, LOL!

Truth be told i think even if the MA’s gain a lot from the Hudsons, the BK’s gain at least as much, if not more, even in a front iso only setup.

But like i have said before, the BK has a 3 lb slug pumping inside, so with 4 of them, that is 12lb trying to disintegrate your couch. Insane indeed

So to sum it up: the Hudsons are the real deal ! And i am glad i did this test, as it showed that the dangerous stacking version gain nothing, and also that 8x is better than 4X in the front.

So 8 in the front it is And i got the last 4 in the mail today, so i have what i need for a 8X in the front + iso’s in the rear on top the MA’s, because even if the full iso config didn’t test as good, it will require more listening tests with real content, because that demo i did was off the charts good
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post #2104 of 2274 Old 04-09-2019, 07:23 AM
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Truth be told i think even if the MA’s gain a lot from the Hudsons, the BK’s gain at least as much, if not more, even in a front iso only setup.

But like i have said before, the BK has a 3 lb slug pumping inside, so with 4 of them, that is 12lb trying to disintegrate your couch. Insane indeed

So to sum it up: the Hudsons are the real deal ! And i am glad i did this test, as it showed that the dangerous stacking version gain nothing, and also that 8x is better than 4X in the front.

So 8 in the front it is And i got the last 4 in the mail today, so i have what i need for a 8X in the front + iso’s in the rear on top the MA’s, because even if the full iso config didn’t test as good, it will require more listening tests with real content, because that demo i did was off the charts good
Nalleh, forgive me if this was covered. But the Hudson isolators:
  1. Do you prefer them over both types of Crowsons?
  2. Where to purchase them?

Thanks for all the great info you are putting out there. Your setup is insane indeed! I have a modest (4) MA coming for my 3 seat front row. Arriving tomorrow!
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post #2105 of 2274 Old 04-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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Nalleh, forgive me if this was covered. But the Hudson isolators:
  1. Do you prefer them over both types of Crowsons?
  2. Where to purchase them?

Thanks for all the great info you are putting out there. Your setup is insane indeed! I have a modest (4) MA coming for my 3 seat front row. Arriving tomorrow!
1. Yup! As my test showed stacking 2x4 of the sorbothane Crowson isolators is very close to 4x Hudson iso’s in the front, but the Hudson is still better. And now the above test show that 8x Hudson’s is even better, so yeah i choose Hudsons


2. Amazon, man :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #2106 of 2274 Old 04-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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@Nalleh - Thanks for the heads up about your post in the BOSS thread, yet again!! I'm gonna have to get with the program over here in this MA thread and keep a better eye on it

Dude, another awesome post with your tests!!! LOL, VS does not lie and is such a cool tool!! Nice to see that the Hudson Isos are so good, especially with even more of them across the front, in parallel. I forgot to try out more Isos in parallel in addition across the front and back under my riser. I'm just running 4 front and 4 back now under the riser. I need to use the rest of what I have up top of the riser since I'm using the MAs on top. Hmmm ..may have to order a few more now for the bottom to get more in parallel LOL

Thanks for doing these tests again, very cool!!!
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post #2107 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 12:46 AM
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@Nalleh - Thanks for the heads up about your post in the BOSS thread, yet again!! I'm gonna have to get with the program over here in this MA thread and keep a better eye on it

Dude, another awesome post with your tests!!! LOL, VS does not lie and is such a cool tool!! Nice to see that the Hudson Isos are so good, especially with even more of them across the front, in parallel. I forgot to try out more Isos in parallel in addition across the front and back under my riser. I'm just running 4 front and 4 back now under the riser. I need to use the rest of what I have up top of the riser since I'm using the MAs on top. Hmmm ..may have to order a few more now for the bottom to get more in parallel LOL

Thanks for doing these tests again, very cool!!!

No problem, Bug

Yeah, you seem occupied elsewhere these days, i don’t get what can be more interesting than this? We miss you over here

Just kidding, i guess you have enough on your plate setting up that monster hybrid combo of yours, LOL.

I guess if you could mount the stacked ones safely it could be done, but honestly i am glad the test showed minimal improvements, because i do not have a good way of doing that yet. And it seemed the 8x in front summed up best with the least disadvantages, so win-win

But getting more of the iso’s is probably a good idea, to test more combos
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The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread.

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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
. And it seemed the 8x in front summed up best with the least disadvantages, so win-win



But getting more of the iso’s is probably a good idea, to test more combos

So are you running all your isos up front and MA’s in the back?

I just went with 4x4 silicone isos front/back, but I also leave both MA’s under the MLP. I guess I could take the two isos off that are in the back right where two isos are, but I wanted some couch stability for when I move it. Maybe it would be better to only have that corner resting on just the MA’s.
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post #2109 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 09:13 AM
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@Nalleh Thanks for the additional detailed data! I was out all day yesterday and only got to look at the data from my phone, but now I'm going to look at it again in detail and share my thoughts on the data and also how it compares to my impressions from my testing and some of my previous guesses based on theory of what's at play with these different approaches...

White noise 0-50:
8 looks better than 4 <20Hz, with a very minor drop in Z but a big bump in Y and a bit in X. But then >30Hz 4 has more Y involvement. This matches my impressions that 8 gave me more bounce, but it makes sense that up top the additional damping of 8 absorbs a bit of output.

Sweep 0-60:
4 looks to have quite a bit more X and Y than 8 from ~10-25Hz, otherwise they are very similar. This is an interesting contrast to the results with the WN.

6Hz:
8 looks a bit better in the single-digits than 4, but they are very close. The difference in peaks >10Hz that you referred to as ringing I think is harmonic distortion, which may suggest that the movement with 8 is actually more linear (at least at 6Hz) and thus lower in THD.

15Hz:
4 and 8 look extremely similar here, although in this case 8 appears to have a bit more distortion at 30Hz, and 4 appears to have a bit more distortion at 45Hz. 30Hz is a perfect octave of the fundamental 15Hz, so distortion there is much more desirable than the odd harmonic of 45Hz, so I'll give the edge to 8 again.

I'm sure you've noticed that I haven't really referred to the stacks. This is because I agree with you that stacking is more trouble than its worth, and brings me back to one of my previous thoughts on these isos in parallel vs. series. Normally doubling identical springs in parallel would double the spring constant. However, since these isos are not linear springs and do not follow Hooke's law, the math is different because, as my compression testing showed, these isos' spring constant shows logarithmic growth with compression. So by adding more isos in parallel, we are decreasing the load/compression on each and thus decreasing the spring constant, which is still summed since they are parallel, but the net change is certainly not close to doubling as it would be with linear springs. I would like to do more detailed compression testing with a caliper and see how much the spring constant changes with a halving in load. If spring constant is halved, there would be no net change in spring constant, and if spring constant is more than halved, the net would actually be a decrease.

I also didn't refer to the isos in series with the MAs. This is because your results match my impressions. They absorbed some of the output, which makes perfect sense, and I ended up increasing the gain to my MAs to compensate. But I did still really like the end result of additional bounce and resonance of the seating in the single-digits. So I think this one is a case where the data is really difficult to compare due to a resulting level difference, and so we have to go with our butt on this one. I think the isos in series with the MAs results in a more loose feel with more ringing, so it's a personal preference thing. The one difference between my full iso test and yours is I had 8 in the front and 4 in the rear while you had 4 in the front and 3 in the rear.

While I don't have BKs myself, @richardsim7 switched to the Hudson isos with his BK-only setup and had a huge improvement which showed up clearly on VS as well as his impressions. So they definitely seem to make a huge difference with BKs and any TR setup, really. I noticed a big difference even with my MAs off and only my FFs on, just with the pressure waves from my ported monsters hitting my couch and/or the suspended floor bouncing and that all translating to a nice bounce in my seating with the Hudson isos. I believe these isos are really the most important component of the BOSS. I don't want to get into the specifics here of the physics behind why I think that is so, but I know many of you have already read my thoughts on that and so I don't need to repeat it here But as anyone who has put the Hudson isos under their seating knows, the difference is instantly noticeable the moment you sit down and put your weight on it.

Thanks again for all the testing! Any chance of getting some CEA-2010 burst testing as well? I think that would shed some light on some of the thoughts I've had on transient response in the different TR alignments...
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post #2110 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 09:14 AM
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No problem, Bug

Yeah, you seem occupied elsewhere these days, i don’t get what can be more interesting than this? We miss you over here

Just kidding, i guess you have enough on your plate setting up that monster hybrid combo of yours, LOL.

I guess if you could mount the stacked ones safely it could be done, but honestly i am glad the test showed minimal improvements, because i do not have a good way of doing that yet. And it seemed the 8x in front summed up best with the least disadvantages, so win-win

But getting more of the iso’s is probably a good idea, to test more combos
LOL for sure!! I've had to really be patient these days (so hard for me LOL) with getting time to do what I want with the system, let alone watch movies on it. You should see the list of good new ones that I haven't even watched yet, @aron7awol knows what I'm talking about from one of our conversations the other day.

I'm hoping to be back at it soon without as much interference , but life sometimes has a way of getting in the way, even the good stuff. Lots of travel (part of it was vacation) and then lots of company, fixing broke crap on a rental house, yada yada I'll stop there LOL Just a bunch of excuses I know. It makes me realize how much I miss my system though.

About the stacked isos, if I want to run my MAs with this BOSS (in my room and floor anyway), I have to run them on top of the platform to not kill the TR from the BOSS. So, only option is to stack them, but stabilization is not an issue because the two layers of isos are separated by the platform.

Yeah I went ahead and ordered 8 more isos yesterday to use if I need them. Which I do, I found out yesterday that 4 across the bottom is not enough with 3 seats. Its fine with 1 seat (which is what I did all my testing with so it would be easier), but all three seats squishes them down too much and a lot of TR is lost, especially from my VNFs. So now I've got 7 across the front and back vs 4 front and back.

Pretty crazy, I was running a few scenes last night back to back with MAs only and BOSS only with some content that digs super deep. They feel almost identical. There is a slight difference but I have to really be paying attention to feel it. And I think the main difference in feel is coming from the fact that the MAs are pushing against the inner frame of my seats and positioned middle back, whereas with the BOSS, only the outer feet on the seats are touching the plywood top. The MAs may have a slight edge, but maybe not. Pretty damn impressive that they can feel this similar. I probably don't even need to be running both and is a waste. I've got some decisions to make I think, just need some more time to play with it all and think about it. I think I mainly just need to figure out if I want to be sitting up this high or not, then go from there.
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post #2111 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 11:30 AM
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LOL for sure!! I've had to really be patient these days (so hard for me LOL) with getting time to do what I want with the system, let alone watch movies on it. You should see the list of good new ones that I haven't even watched yet, @aron7awol knows what I'm talking about from one of our conversations the other day.

I'm hoping to be back at it soon without as much interference , but life sometimes has a way of getting in the way, even the good stuff. Lots of travel (part of it was vacation) and then lots of company, fixing broke crap on a rental house, yada yada I'll stop there LOL Just a bunch of excuses I know. It makes me realize how much I miss my system though.

About the stacked isos, if I want to run my MAs with this BOSS (in my room and floor anyway), I have to run them on top of the platform to not kill the TR from the BOSS. So, only option is to stack them, but stabilization is not an issue because the two layers of isos are separated by the platform.

Yeah I went ahead and ordered 8 more isos yesterday to use if I need them. Which I do, I found out yesterday that 4 across the bottom is not enough with 3 seats. Its fine with 1 seat (which is what I did all my testing with so it would be easier), but all three seats squishes them down too much and a lot of TR is lost, especially from my VNFs. So now I've got 7 across the front and back vs 4 front and back.

Pretty crazy, I was running a few scenes last night back to back with MAs only and BOSS only with some content that digs super deep. They feel almost identical. There is a slight difference but I have to really be paying attention to feel it. And I think the main difference in feel is coming from the fact that the MAs are pushing against the inner frame of my seats and positioned middle back, whereas with the BOSS, only the outer feet on the seats are touching the plywood top. The MAs may have a slight edge, but maybe not. Pretty damn impressive that they can feel this similar. I probably don't even need to be running both and is a waste. I've got some decisions to make I think, just need some more time to play with it all and think about it. I think I mainly just need to figure out if I want to be sitting up this high or not, then go from there.
LOL ..what was I thinking there, NO NOT A WASTE At least not when combined under 10hz. I don't know that one could ever have too much single digit wobble. I just tried the MAs in combo together and this time only had the BOSS contribute under 10-11hz. Damn, Single digits make a serious difference. 'IT' BEQ'd is just loaded with singles. I think I've been shorting myself a lot of single digit wobble until now and didn't even realize it.

Maybe I can dial up the MAs more in this area too, they are not even hot from it
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post #2112 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 11:37 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
1. Yup! As my test showed stacking 2x4 of the sorbothane Crowson isolators is very close to 4x Hudson iso’s in the front, but the Hudson is still better. And now the above test show that 8x Hudson’s is even better, so yeah i choose Hudsons


2. Amazon, man :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I finally caved in and ordered 8 of the Hudson 2.5's from amazon.ca (Canada) Amazon Prime free next day shipping.

Very pleased to see the price didn't increase at all going to the Canadian site
that almost always incurs a 50-100% increase in pricing after conversion PLUS extra for US international shipping when I buy from amazon.com

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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
LOL ..what was I thinking there, NO NOT A WASTE At least not when combined under 10hz. I don't know that one could ever have too much single digit wobble. I just tried the MAs in combo together and this time only had the BOSS contribute under 10-11hz. Damn, Single digits make a serious difference. 'IT' BEQ'd is just loaded with singles. I think I've been shorting myself a lot of single digit wobble until now and didn't even realize it.

Maybe I can dial up the MAs more in this area too, they are not even hot from it
Happy to hear it, because that's what the theory was telling me should be the case and while I don't mind having the theory be wrong, I need to figure out why so I can revise the theory! It makes a lot more sense this way!

This is similar to my theory on the transients, so hopefully you will soon confirm that is the case as well

I feel the same way, though, I'm not sure I could ever have too much on the single-digit wobbles and hard transients!
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post #2114 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 12:09 PM
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I finally caved in and ordered 8 of the Hudson 2.5's from amazon.ca (Canada) Amazon Prime free next day shipping.



Very pleased to see the price didn't increase at all going to the Canadian site

that almost always incurs a 50-100% increase in pricing after conversion PLUS extra for US international shipping when I buy from amazon.com




Nice! If memory serves, you’re using a mix of hockey pucks and Crowson isos, so you should see a solid improvement in TR with these. Wish these were available from the get go! $5 each is awesome
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Anyone see a problem using this to power two crowsons?

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http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...mountable.html

Anyone see a problem using this to power two crowsons?
No, it just seems very expensive for what you get compared to something like an NX3000D.
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No, it just seems very expensive for what you get compared to something like an NX3000D.
Yea the fan complaints on the NX3000D and conventional inputs on the dayton have me leaning towards that model though.
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Yea the fan complaints on the NX3000D and conventional inputs on the dayton have me leaning towards that model though.
Gotcha. How about one of the Crown amps, then? I'm seeing the XLS 1002 on PE for ~$340 and it is rated at:
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Nice! If memory serves, you’re using a mix of hockey pucks and Crowson isos, so you should see a solid improvement in TR with these. Wish these were available from the get go! $5 each is awesome

Yep, My seating has a LOT of feet

4 per armrest (x4) = 16
4 per seat (steel cross-rails) x 3 seats = 12

Total 28



4 Crowson locations, 4 Crowson (new style) ISO's left me needing 20 more

I bought a bunch of hockey pucks ($1 ea) and 8 of these ...

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post #2120 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 12:58 PM
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Happy to hear it, because that's what the theory was telling me should be the case and while I don't mind having the theory be wrong, I need to figure out why so I can revise the theory! It makes a lot more sense this way!

This is similar to my theory on the transients, so hopefully you will soon confirm that is the case as well

I feel the same way, though, I'm not sure I could ever have too much on the single-digit wobbles and hard transients!

Thanks man!

Ok, I get it about the transients theory, but what was the other one? Sorry, maybe I didn't read it right or misunderstood (or my heads been out of the game too long lol), but wanted to ask about what you meant exactly about the first theory.

For clarification, the BOSS seems to feel almost identical to the MAs on all those heavy ULF and LF scenes with the same settings on each (LPF @18hz with BW 12db/oct slope where it slowly fades out at about 35-40hz). But combined can just be too much from about 12hz and a little further up and up towards the 20hz area. This is where I was saying that having both MAs and BOSS is kind of a waste (besides headroom), as I just have to dial them both back quite a bit to get the same TR intensity when combined in this area. I know I said the other day that it feels better this way, but not sure about that from today's demos. So, I just raised the MAs intensity back up to were I'd run them by themselves without the BOSS, but still at a level that gives that perfect feel intensity combined with my VNFs. THEN in addition, set a LPF at 11hz BW 24 db/oct high cutoff on the BOSS, that way they are only combined mainly under 10hz where its contributing. A little above too since its not a cliff, but majority us under 10hz. Then in addition crank up the gain on the BOSS so get more singles power TR as well. I guess I could do it the other way around too and switch where each contribute, OR lower the levels on both and LS both at 10hz to rise the singles on both. I need to mess with it more, but loved the way that felt today for sure with doing it that way. Made me realize what I've been missing under 10hz. My 12hz area is just so strong on this suspended floor that it tends to overshadow everything else if not careful. Not that I don't love me some powerhouse 12hz

EDIT: Nalleh gets his powerhouse TR from his floor about 3hz higher than mine peaking around 15hz, where mine peaks at 12hz. I wish mine extended up higher like his.
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post #2121 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 01:53 PM
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Thanks man!

Ok, I get it about the transients theory, but what was the other one? Sorry, maybe I didn't read it right or misunderstood (or my heads been out of the game too long lol), but wanted to ask about what you meant exactly about the first theory.
Knowing that in my case, I just can't get enough and/or too much when it comes to the single-digits and transients. As you know, I recently increased my peak power from 500W to 1000W and I'm loving when a hot transient hits and uses all of it, it's that peak acceleration moment where I feel like, the more the better (it's still not enough)!!! And I feel similarly when testing the Lone Survivor Chinook scene or the Hulk Street Fight when they run toward each other, that single-digit wobble makes me want to just increase the gain more and more until I just can't any more! So those feelings from my own personal experience and preference, and my interpretation/theory of the physics of the BOSS vs. MAs, I would be very surprised if I would be fully satisfied with something like 240W of peak power accelerating me in those transients or single-digit wobbles. Granted, there's a seat resonance coming into play, but that's the case with full isolation with MAs as well, so just knowing how similar our tastes seem to be for TR, I was surprised to hear you saying that adding the MAs to the mix was essentially a waste since that suggested you were 100% satisfied without them, even in the single-digits and transients. Now don't get me wrong, 240W certainly feels like a ton of TR, so really, anyone in their right mind should be fully satisfied with it, but you and I, my friend, are not in our right minds, along with others who I don't need to mention Now >10-15Hz, or somewhere around there (and of course suspended floor resonance will affect this point), it gets quite easy to turn things up enough to be more than intense enough where it starts to get uncomfortable, and that's why our house curves are so important to be able to crank it down low without things getting out of hand higher up. But with BEQ there's just so much to take advantage of in the singles and transients, I can't imagine having anything less than I have now, and on the other hand I'm starving for more!
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post #2122 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 02:27 PM
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So are you running all your isos up front and MA’s in the back?

I just went with 4x4 silicone isos front/back, but I also leave both MA’s under the MLP. I guess I could take the two isos off that are in the back right where two isos are, but I wanted some couch stability for when I move it. Maybe it would be better to only have that corner resting on just the MA’s.
Yes, i am. I have all iso’s in front and all MA’s in the rear. But i had a 4x MA setup and now have 2x3 stack setup. As me an Aron discussed earlier, if you have a 2x MA setup, it might be better to have i like you have it now, with iso’s in the rear on each side of a MA, to lighten the load. So, with just 2x MA setup i see no reason to have all iso’s in the front. However you might still gain from using 8 up front, but i would actually leave the rear iso’s you currently have where they are

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@Nalleh Thanks for the additional detailed data! I was out all day yesterday and only got to look at the data from my phone, but now I'm going to look at it again in detail and share my thoughts on the data and also how it compares to my impressions from my testing and some of my previous guesses based on theory of what's at play with these different approaches...

White noise 0-50:
8 looks better than 4 <20Hz, with a very minor drop in Z but a big bump in Y and a bit in X. But then >30Hz 4 has more Y involvement. This matches my impressions that 8 gave me more bounce, but it makes sense that up top the additional damping of 8 absorbs a bit of output.

Sweep 0-60:
4 looks to have quite a bit more X and Y than 8 from ~10-25Hz, otherwise they are very similar. This is an interesting contrast to the results with the WN.

6Hz:
8 looks a bit better in the single-digits than 4, but they are very close. The difference in peaks >10Hz that you referred to as ringing I think is harmonic distortion, which may suggest that the movement with 8 is actually more linear (at least at 6Hz) and thus lower in THD.

15Hz:
4 and 8 look extremely similar here, although in this case 8 appears to have a bit more distortion at 30Hz, and 4 appears to have a bit more distortion at 45Hz. 30Hz is a perfect octave of the fundamental 15Hz, so distortion there is much more desirable than the odd harmonic of 45Hz, so I'll give the edge to 8 again.

I'm sure you've noticed that I haven't really referred to the stacks. This is because I agree with you that stacking is more trouble than its worth, and brings me back to one of my previous thoughts on these isos in parallel vs. series. Normally doubling identical springs in parallel would double the spring constant. However, since these isos are not linear springs and do not follow Hooke's law, the math is different because, as my compression testing showed, these isos' spring constant shows logarithmic growth with compression. So by adding more isos in parallel, we are decreasing the load/compression on each and thus decreasing the spring constant, which is still summed since they are parallel, but the net change is certainly not close to doubling as it would be with linear springs. I would like to do more detailed compression testing with a caliper and see how much the spring constant changes with a halving in load. If spring constant is halved, there would be no net change in spring constant, and if spring constant is more than halved, the net would actually be a decrease.

I also didn't refer to the isos in series with the MAs. This is because your results match my impressions. They absorbed some of the output, which makes perfect sense, and I ended up increasing the gain to my MAs to compensate. But I did still really like the end result of additional bounce and resonance of the seating in the single-digits. So I think this one is a case where the data is really difficult to compare due to a resulting level difference, and so we have to go with our butt on this one. I think the isos in series with the MAs results in a more loose feel with more ringing, so it's a personal preference thing. The one difference between my full iso test and yours is I had 8 in the front and 4 in the rear while you had 4 in the front and 3 in the rear.

While I don't have BKs myself, @richardsim7 switched to the Hudson isos with his BK-only setup and had a huge improvement which showed up clearly on VS as well as his impressions. So they definitely seem to make a huge difference with BKs and any TR setup, really. I noticed a big difference even with my MAs off and only my FFs on, just with the pressure waves from my ported monsters hitting my couch and/or the suspended floor bouncing and that all translating to a nice bounce in my seating with the Hudson isos. I believe these isos are really the main component of the BOSS. I don't want to get into the specifics here of the physics behind why I think that is so, but I know many of you have already read my thoughts on that and so I don't need to repeat it here But as anyone who has put the Hudson isos under their seating knows, the difference is instantly noticeable the moment you sit down and put your weight on it.

Thanks again for all the testing! Any chance of getting some CEA-2010 burst testing as well? I think that would shed some light on some of the thoughts I've had on transient response in the different TR alignments...
Thanks for taking a look, Aron Always appreciated. I know you like the "use the ol’ butt-o-meter" approach, but i like to have a little measurements to start with

Yes, great analysis, and i agree. Granted not many would be interested or want to use a stacked iso setup, as it is harder to do, but my take on all of this is that the stacked Crowson sorbo- iso’s was the best option from Crowson, but the Hudson is simply better in all aspects, and and altough the different options had some nuances in the measurements, i think it is safe to say that the 8 in parallel showed the best results in total. It kind of combined the pluses from the Crowsons with the best from Hudson’s, and is both easy to mount and cheap(well you need 8, but still).

This is still with a front iso only setup though.

Yes, you are right about the distorsion, i called it ringing because you used that term earlier when comparing full iso with front iso, i believe.

Yes, i agree on the full iso, actually it is nothinng wrong with the full iso graph, they look fine, only lower level. And that is what pleased me most about it, i was half expecting some horrible strange graphs because of the iso’s in series with the MA, but they looked fine.

And altough the BKs helped when i did the demo, it proved that it might actually be a very good way of having it all combined.
So yeah, more testing with content is required on the full iso config.

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LOL for sure!! I've had to really be patient these days (so hard for me LOL) with getting time to do what I want with the system, let alone watch movies on it. You should see the list of good new ones that I haven't even watched yet, @aron7awol knows what I'm talking about from one of our conversations the other day.

I'm hoping to be back at it soon without as much interference , but life sometimes has a way of getting in the way, even the good stuff. Lots of travel (part of it was vacation) and then lots of company, fixing broke crap on a rental house, yada yada I'll stop there LOL Just a bunch of excuses I know. It makes me realize how much I miss my system though.

About the stacked isos, if I want to run my MAs with this BOSS (in my room and floor anyway), I have to run them on top of the platform to not kill the TR from the BOSS. So, only option is to stack them, but stabilization is not an issue because the two layers of isos are separated by the platform.

Yeah I went ahead and ordered 8 more isos yesterday to use if I need them. Which I do, I found out yesterday that 4 across the bottom is not enough with 3 seats. Its fine with 1 seat (which is what I did all my testing with so it would be easier), but all three seats squishes them down too much and a lot of TR is lost, especially from my VNFs. So now I've got 7 across the front and back vs 4 front and back.

Pretty crazy, I was running a few scenes last night back to back with MAs only and BOSS only with some content that digs super deep. They feel almost identical. There is a slight difference but I have to really be paying attention to feel it. And I think the main difference in feel is coming from the fact that the MAs are pushing against the inner frame of my seats and positioned middle back, whereas with the BOSS, only the outer feet on the seats are touching the plywood top. The MAs may have a slight edge, but maybe not. Pretty damn impressive that they can feel this similar. I probably don't even need to be running both and is a waste. I've got some decisions to make I think, just need some more time to play with it all and think about it. I think I mainly just need to figure out if I want to be sitting up this high or not, then go from there.
Sure, life gets in the way, we all have that problem, no worries, my friend.

Yes, with your combo BOSS/MA setup that would automatically include stacked iso’s so you are already there. Safely

Good call on more iso’s when more seats are installed, makes sense.

Maybe the reason you have trouble deciding on the MA’s or the BOSS is you are only using 3x JBL’s on you riser, so you are like «hmm, they are very similar" as while IF you had a 6x JBL BOSS(or more), it would be more" WOW, that’s it, the MA’s are out of here". If it is comparable to your MA’s now, wouldn’t it be logical that more drivers would be even better?

Another thing: I believe you kind of missed a step going from "conventional" MA setup to a BOSS and then ended up combined them. Me, Aron and richardsim kept the setup and just changed to the Hudson iso’s. And we all noticed a big improvement. Could it be that some of your improvements are also from just the iso’s?
And if you had done what we did, and kept your old setup, only switching out the iso’s, could it be that it ended up as good as you have it today?

Don’t get me wrong, i admire that you went for it, but i have to wonder how much difference the changes in gear did, and how much the iso’s did, since we noticed such a difference
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post #2123 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 02:34 PM
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Yep, My seating has a LOT of feet

4 per armrest (x4) = 16
4 per seat (steel cross-rails) x 3 seats = 12

Total 28

4 Crowson locations, 4 Crowson (new style) ISO's left me needing 20 more

I bought a bunch of hockey pucks ($1 ea) and 8 of these ...
Joink, that is a lot of feets ! You should notice a big improvement with the new iso’s

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post #2124 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 02:55 PM
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Yes, you are right about the distorsion, i called it ringing because you used that term earlier when comparing full iso with front iso, i believe.
Yeah, I definitely felt more ringing going from 4 isos to 8 in the front, and going from half-iso to full-iso. I was just saying that in this case I thought what was showing on the graphs was harmonic distortion, not ringing. I wish my butt-o-meter was sensitive enough to feel harmonic distortion, but it's a crude old butt without the latest newfangled butt-o-meter technology

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Yes, i agree on the full iso, actually it is nothinng wrong with the full iso graph, they look fine, only lower level. And that is what pleased me most about it, i was half expecting some horrible strange graphs because of the iso’s in series with the MA, but they looked fine.

And altough the BKs helped when i did the demo, it proved that it might actually be a very good way of having it all combined.
So yeah, more testing with content is required on the full iso config.
Agreed. I haven't decided which I prefer myself, but I definitely need to do a lot more testing.

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Another thing: I believe you kind of missed a step going from "conventional" MA setup to a BOSS and then ended up combined them. Me, Aron and richardsim kept the setup and just changed to the Hudson iso’s. And we all noticed a big improvement. Could it be that some of your improvements are also from just the iso’s?
And if you had done what we did, and kept your old setup, only switching out the iso’s, could it be that it ended up as good as you have it today?

Don’t get me wrong, i admire that you went for it, but i have to wonder how much difference the changes in gear did, and how much the iso’s did, since we noticed such a difference
+1. Really tough to say.
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post #2125 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Gotcha. How about one of the Crown amps, then? I'm seeing the XLS 1002 on PE for ~$340 and it is rated at:
Output power, bridged mono mode (EIA 1 kHz): 700 watts x 1 (8 ohms), 1,100 watts x 1 (4 ohms)
As far as I know the XLS doesn't come with any DSP controls. The Dayton is ~$400 on amazon (not $529) so It doesn't seem too bad.
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post #2126 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 06:25 PM
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Knowing that in my case, I just can't get enough and/or too much when it comes to the single-digits and transients. As you know, I recently increased my peak power from 500W to 1000W and I'm loving when a hot transient hits and uses all of it, it's that peak acceleration moment where I feel like, the more the better (it's still not enough)!!! And I feel similarly when testing the Lone Survivor Chinook scene or the Hulk Street Fight when they run toward each other, that single-digit wobble makes me want to just increase the gain more and more until I just can't any more! So those feelings from my own personal experience and preference, and my interpretation/theory of the physics of the BOSS vs. MAs, I would be very surprised if I would be fully satisfied with something like 240W of peak power accelerating me in those transients or single-digit wobbles. Granted, there's a seat resonance coming into play, but that's the case with full isolation with MAs as well, so just knowing how similar our tastes seem to be for TR, I was surprised to hear you saying that adding the MAs to the mix was essentially a waste since that suggested you were 100% satisfied without them, even in the single-digits and transients. Now don't get me wrong, 240W certainly feels like a ton of TR, so really, anyone in their right mind should be fully satisfied with it, but you and I, my friend, are not in our right minds, along with others who I don't need to mention Now >10-15Hz, or somewhere around there (and of course suspended floor resonance will affect this point), it gets quite easy to turn things up enough to be more than intense enough where it starts to get uncomfortable, and that's why our house curves are so important to be able to crank it down low without things getting out of hand higher up. But with BEQ there's just so much to take advantage of in the singles and transients, I can't imagine having anything less than I have now, and on the other hand I'm starving for more!

Ahhhh gotcha!!! Great reply and I totally agree. Thanks for the clarification! And yeah, I guess I was mainly talking about the above 10hz stuff that kind of seemed to be a waste with so much TR horsepower between the MAs and BOSS above 10hz that feels almost identical. They have to be backed down or it can get to be too much. Now the BK's, they are massive above 10hz too but are different in a way and can add their own little special somethin' to the mix

But now that I've discovered just how insanely cool feeling singles can be by doing that little experiment, if I end up keeping both, combining in the singles area will be the real magic of this setup with BOSS in the mix I think, especially if I can get even more out of the MAs in the singles, which I KNOW I can in some way just like I did out of the BOSS. They we just coasting in the singles today and the BOSS was doing most of the work.

Ya know, that being said with saying you want even more in the singles with the MAs being maxed out in your rig, I think that may be next step for you in attaining MORE. In whatever form or components, I think multiples are in order. Combining is a VERY power thing and could/can really work to your advantage in the singles just like mine (and will get even better once I tweak some more). That could be some form of a BOSS and or even stacked MAs for the singles. Nalleh said he could def feel a real nice difference in the singles digit area. 'More texture and more Power' I think were his words

Knowing what I know now with just experiencing an entry level boss with only 3 JBLs, I personally think combining something like GK's 18" in a BOSS set up with a proper rising curve with LSs or combo of LPF and slope order for full throttle maximum single digit capability combined with MAs set up similar would just knock the single digit intensity and aggression right out of the park. Granted, it'll probably set the seating way to high in the air for a front row seat. But I have no doubt that it was kick MAJOR ass down low and may be worth setting way up on a throne!! LOL

Or maybe the Franken-BOSS Nalleh may bring into the world in the near future That thing could bring on some series TR brutality!! When I get a chance, I need to go catch up on that in his thread too.

You are right, we are not 'normal' when it comes to our lust for intoxicating TR!!
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post #2127 of 2274 Old 04-10-2019, 06:59 PM
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Sure, life gets in the way, we all have that problem, no worries, my friend.

Yes, with your combo BOSS/MA setup that would automatically include stacked iso’s so you are already there. Safely

Good call on more iso’s when more seats are installed, makes sense.

Maybe the reason you have trouble deciding on the MA’s or the BOSS is you are only using 3x JBL’s on you riser, so you are like «hmm, they are very similar" as while IF you had a 6x JBL BOSS(or more), it would be more" WOW, that’s it, the MA’s are out of here". If it is comparable to your MA’s now, wouldn’t it be logical that more drivers would be even better?

Another thing: I believe you kind of missed a step going from "conventional" MA setup to a BOSS and then ended up combined them. Me, Aron and richardsim kept the setup and just changed to the Hudson iso’s. And we all noticed a big improvement. Could it be that some of your improvements are also from just the iso’s?
And if you had done what we did, and kept your old setup, only switching out the iso’s, could it be that it ended up as good as you have it today?

Don’t get me wrong, i admire that you went for it, but i have to wonder how much difference the changes in gear did, and how much the iso’s did, since we noticed such a difference

Thanks man! Great comments and questions, as always!

Yes, I'm sure more drivers would make it even better, I could probably fit 6. I gotta say, I'm surprised what just 3 little 12's can do in this thing. The fact that they seem to be able to pretty much hang with the MAs is saying a LOT IMO. Pretty crazy. I'm sure 6-8 drivers could REALLY bring it! Or bigger drives like I was saying in my reply to Aron up above. But size becomes a factor at a certain point for sure. But the possibilities are pretty exciting to think about!!

About me skipping right to the BOSS and not trying the new isos first ...oh yeah most definitely, I agree. I was very happy with my previous setup before the BOSS (in most ways) and think the Isos would have totally taken it up a notch or two just like in you guys' systems. The new Hudson Isos makes TR from ALL components better!! So I would have just added them in with what I had, I may not have even tried the BOSS and been over the moon happy with it. I already was in ways, but as we know, it can always be better right!!?? LOL

But, I'm glad I went ahead and tried it because I had to know, it would have drove me insane not knowing, especially with all the fantastic feedback they are getting in the BOSS thread. Hell even carp (a VNF and MA lover) is jumping ship and totally abandoning his beloved VNF and MAs (for various reasons I think), but that right there is one hell of an endorsement for the BOSS (I know, I think Tim may have said something similar). But true. I know what the VNFs and MAs are capable of. Pretty crazy the TR possibilities and the ways of getting it these days. Then there is us, who want to run it all, or most of it anyway LOL

But back to if I had not tried the BOSS and just changed out the isos, would I be where I'm at now with this Hybrid BOSS thing? Damn good question and one I was thinking about today, before and after my demo session. In one of my earlier posts today in this thread, I was saying I had a decision to make and was thinking it was probably a lateral move and then I'm sitting up higher as well. I was thinking I may just go back to my setup preBOSS but with the new Isos and would probably feel about the same as what I've got now with the BOSS hybrid and would be not as complicated, plus set lower..

But this last demo today made me possibly think otherwise. I need more time and testing with it, but I do think that the BOSS can really help me push the boundaries in the single digit arena the way I was running it today combined with the MAs. Could be killer and might not be able for me to match it otherwise. Maybe stacked MAs could, IDK. BUT, I will say that the BOSS added something today that I hadn't experienced from it yet. With running it down low only (basically only under12hz) and at a more aggressive gain setting with such a low LPF and fairly moderate steep slope cutoff, it added a wonderful fullness and weight and even a certain awesome feeling of pressure as well to go with it, and all very natural and realistic feeling. I LOVED it and dont think I want to loose that. It really added to the realism. It really felt like I was missing something vital when I would mute the BOSS. Will be interesting to see if the MAs can do this as well once I try to juice up their under 10hz as well.

I do kind of think that after I get the BOSS hybrid just like I want and everything tested out, I may take it completely out and try my pre-BOSS setup against it to just compare and see what I think. Or I may be so happy with the Buger-BOSS hybrid (hahaha) I may not even care to do such a thing and just leave well enough alone

One thing I do need to do though is take the BK's off the riser like I have them now on the BOSS platform and mount them behind like I did pre-BOSS. I don't like them where they are at now and are vibrating something petty bad on the platform if I run them very hard at all. Not good. A little too localizable too.
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post #2128 of 2274 Old 04-11-2019, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Yeah, I definitely felt more ringing going from 4 isos to 8 in the front, and going from half-iso to full-iso. I was just saying that in this case I thought what was showing on the graphs was harmonic distortion, not ringing. I wish my butt-o-meter was sensitive enough to feel harmonic distortion, but it's a crude old butt without the latest newfangled butt-o-meter technology
Ok, that makes sense.

I decided to dig a little deeper after your post and take a look at that 6hz sine wave and how it looks, TR wise. I zoomed in and seperated the axis.
Here is Z-axis. The whole graph is 0.5 seconds long and 6hz should then be 3 big peaks. As you can see neither of the graphs have just 3, they all have 6’ish distint peaks. And the different iso setups show different shapes of the peaks, some are more "in sync" than others. The one that looks most like seperate peaks is actually the 4x Hudson, but it still isn’t clean. However this may vary a LOT depending on resonant frequenzy of the seat, weight, number of MA, iso’s and so on.



Y-axis is a bit better, but still not clean. But i don’t think that can be expected with all this weight bouncing around. And differences here to in the different iso setups, but 8x iso’s looks cleanest here.

Also note that 4x is the one dipping furthest below -10 on the vertical accel scale on both Z and Y-axis. Probably because those axis sum better.

(The 4x looks like 3 cats sitting there looking at you, LOL)



And lastly X-axis. And dare i say 8x looks best here too ?



You might think it is strange that the X-axis is so active, but it is probably because i sit in one of the two seats(weighted down seat) and measure in the other(un-weighted seat), and it is CLEARLY VISIBLE during the measurements that the couch DO move in all three axis.
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post #2129 of 2274 Old 04-11-2019, 01:48 AM
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@SBuger : too long post to quote, LOL(but i love your thorough posts).

Yeah, i believe you called me going to a 3 driver BOSS would be a lateral move and i tend to agree. Between the stack MA, 4x BK now combined with the Hudson iso’s is just so insane, i am skeptical.

Problem is a 3 driver BOSS is all i can do(and even that is a lot of work) without major surgery, LOL.

Because of thight space under my recliner, your tall riser option is my only viable option, and if so, i might as well pack it full of drivers, LOL. Me and @aron7awol have been brainstorming a bit in my thread about it, but haven’t reached a conclusion yet.

I am glad to hear you are getting good results after all your hard work, you deserve it, LOL.
How many MA’s do you have active now, 2?

I have to admit Archea’s review was impressive, though

Thing is, a lot of people may not have experience with a good transducer setup, they have just put one under there, run it off of the LFE channel with EQ, timing and what not the same as the subs, subpar mounting, amps and generally speaking not a optimal setup, and they badmouth that solution for ever. My experience is transdusers is NOT a plug and play option. Sure technically it is, but NOT for optimal performance. And if you just plug and play, you may end up with a bad taste in your mouth for those solution, while all it really was, was bad setup.

Lately i have heard the phrase " doesn’t feel natural", and my first tought is setup, setup, setup.
Us that have been doing this for a while and put in the time to properly set it up, can witness amazing improvements from initial performance.

Sure a lot is preference and taste, and what one finds perfect, another might find lacking/ or too much. But still: proper setup is crucial.
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post #2130 of 2274 Old 04-11-2019, 06:58 AM
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Ya know, that being said with saying you want even more in the singles with the MAs being maxed out in your rig, I think that may be next step for you in attaining MORE. In whatever form or components, I think multiples are in order. Combining is a VERY power thing and could/can really work to your advantage in the singles just like mine (and will get even better once I tweak some more). That could be some form of a BOSS and or even stacked MAs for the singles. Nalleh said he could def feel a real nice difference in the singles digit area. 'More texture and more Power' I think were his words
My MAs are not actually maxed out, they are only running at ~50% right now But your point certainly still stands, that the synergy of combining will net an even better result. Which, in that respect, I still need to build my speaker stands and get my UM18s VNF, as we previously discussed. I know you and @Nalleh love your VNFs and he's been pushing me to do exactly that as well. So I definitely need to do that, and upgrading my amp to take full advantage of my MAs' capabilities would give a doubling in peak acceleration as well.
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