The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 78 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2311 of 2341 Old 08-07-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
LFE by default is always 10db higher since the .1 (subwoofer) in movies hits peaks 10db higher than other channels. This is perfectly normal and how it should be. The freq response will still be the same as other channels if you include the sub in your measurements.


Thanks Reed.

So any freq mastered for .1 ‘LFE’ channel is always amplified 10db?

Whereas bass sent to other channels (and subsequently redirected to .1 LFE via bass management in AVR) is played through the .1 ‘LFE’ but NOT subject to the 10db increase?
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post #2312 of 2341 Old 08-07-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Thanks Reed.

So any freq mastered for .1 ‘LFE’ channel is always amplified 10db?

Whereas bass sent to other channels (and subsequently redirected to .1 LFE via bass management in AVR) is played through the .1 ‘LFE’ but NOT subject to the 10db increase?
Most AVRs have 10db boost in the LFE channel vs other channels.

Regular bass management for example when you use 80hz xover just sends the 80hz content and below to the subs. That's not the LFE at all and is not boosted....that's just the subs playing lower content that you separated using bass management. The LFE is only the .1 in films and most avrs have fix default of 120hz and most have default of 10db boost.

My whole point was when you're comparing HDMI 4 to the other outputs don't be alarmed if you see 10db boost in the subwoofer frequencies since that is normal.
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post #2313 of 2341 Old 08-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread.

Perfectly clear thanks Reed.

I recall running sweeps on HDMI 4 ‘LFE’ previously and it was exactly as you described, about a 10 dB boost. I could never understand why; now it all makes sense.
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post #2314 of 2341 Old 08-13-2019, 07:35 AM
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Finally had one of my first gen Crowson isos fall apart after about two years:

It does leave a little oil residue on the floor, luckily hard wood so easy cleanup.
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post #2315 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 05:33 AM
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Finally got some 1/4 inch plywood to mount the crowsons. While it is thin, it should still help with magnetic issue. Will test this out to see if its an improvement over the other setup since wood is supposed to transmit vibrations better. Currently have the actuators near one of the corners. Other option is adding isolator in the empty corner and put actuator in the middle of seat. Will see how this goes.
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post #2316 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 06:46 AM
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Although I have not tested a Crowson MA specifically,
I do have experience with subwoofer magnets being drained because they were within 1" from a large metal surface.
(pair of 15" drivers in a regular cab pickup truck, drivers facing seats, magnets very near rear wall of cab)

I'd be willing to bet 1/4" is not enough of a barrier....considering the cost of the MA, I wouldn't risk it myself

I have my 4 MA's under my 3 seater's armrests and lots of Hudson ISO's everywhere else,
...because of the massive size of my seats and the number of feet, I have 4 ISO's per seat at the cross rails, 3 per armrest, 1 MA per armrest.


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post #2317 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 10:11 AM
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Just tested these things. I got so much more shaking with plywood all around the metal frame vs the arm rest as before. I love it! Now @PioManiac why you gonna do me like that? LOL I've noticed its still magnetic but I didn't want to make chairs heavy with really thick sheet on whole chair. Perhaps I can just add plywood squares to the feet part and actuators only and keep the 1/4 sheet where it is?

Temporarily I have pulled out the actuators from the seats til I add more wood. So it actually drains the magnet over time? Didn't realize that! So now its off the metal til I add more barrier. How much is enough???

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post #2318 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Just tested these things. I got so much more shaking with plywood all around the metal frame vs the arm rest as before. I love it! Now @PioManiac why you gonna do me like that? LOL I've noticed its still magnetic but I didn't want to make chairs heavy with really thick sheet on whole chair. Perhaps I can just add plywood squares to the feet part and actuators only and keep the 1/4 sheet where it is?

Temporarily I have pulled out the actuators from the seats til I add more wood. So it actually drains the magnet over time? Didn't realize that! So now its off the metal til I add more barrier. How much is enough???
I'm gonna take the credit for suggesting the plywood base.

Now, dump those isolators and get on the Hudson isos train!! They really are that much better....
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post #2319 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post

Temporarily I have pulled out the actuators from the seats til I add more wood. So it actually drains the magnet over time? Didn't realize that! So now its off the metal til I add more barrier. How much is enough???
1/4" ply isn't very thick or very dense, I would think at least 1/2" or 5/8" MDF would be better, but its easy enough to test
All I know is I lost significant power output on an expensive pair of Subs within a few months and decided not to risk it with my Crowsons.

[EDIT]

I found an old pic from when I was wiring up the Dual 15" subs, my first of many builds....80' Toyota 4x4, 6" lift 36" M/T's
My first Very Near Field's ....from 36 years ago LOL!

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post #2320 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'm gonna take the credit for suggesting the plywood base.

Now, dump those isolators and get on the Hudson isos train!! They really are that much better....
You can have the credit! lol I do have Hudsons when I used on feet of old couch. Didn't want the glue to wear out (since its not as sticky as before) so I was waiting to finalize the plywood base first. I'm assuming I still need 3 per chair just like regular feet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
1/4" ply isn't very thick or very dense, I would think at least 1/2" or 5/8" MDF would be better, but its easy enough to test
All I know is I lost significant power output on an expensive pair of Subs within a few months and decided not to risk it with my Crowsons.

[EDIT]

I found an old pic from when I was wiring up the Dual 15" subs, my first of many 4x4 builds....80' Toyota
My first Very Near Field's ....from 36 years ago LOL!

Nice truck! I used to compete in SQ in USAC back in 2000 and I had a bronco. Yeah, you were a basshead all your life! lol

So whats the diff between plywood and mdf? Thought goal was to get actuator away from metal as far as possible. Does MDF shake/transmit vibrations better?

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post #2321 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
You can have the credit! lol I do have Hudsons when I used on feet of old couch. Didn't want the glue to wear out (since its not as sticky as before) so I was waiting to finalize the plywood base first. I'm assuming I still need 3 per chair just like regular feet?



Nice truck! I used to compete in SQ in USAC back in 2000 and I had a bronco. Yeah, you were a basshead all your life! lol

So whats the diff between plywood and mdf? Thought goal was to get actuator away from metal as far as possible. Does MDF shake/transmit vibrations better?
DENSITY = Resistance to magnetic field transmission through the material

1/4" Plywood is flimsy AF, just the weight of it will tell you that.
MDF = Medium Density Fiberboard = more compressed, high resin content, more dense.

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post #2322 of 2341 Old 08-14-2019, 04:19 PM
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All this mounting and remounting is a pain in the butt! But I'm sure it will be worth it at the end when I'm done!

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post #2323 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 04:46 AM
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My front recliners are older and have wooden frames.
Do I gain anything significant by using a sheet vs. just screwing on wider strips of wood on the front and back cross pieces?
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post #2324 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 04:59 AM
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How does MDF compare to 2x4 lumber? I was thinking to run 2x4 across the metal frames. Overkill?

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post #2325 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 06:10 AM
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I think I'm over thinking this! I'm just gonna get something like 1 inch thick MDF to replace the 1/4th inch plywood! One whole piece is probably best per chair. LOL

The sheet will cover the metal frame as one piece. It will be 22 inches by 24 inches in size. While I'm aware that 2 isolation feet will go on each chair up front....do I need to put isolation feet in the rear corner also if I plan on putting actuator in middle of the seat at the rear?

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post #2326 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ht guy View Post
My front recliners are older and have wooden frames.

Do I gain anything significant by using a sheet vs. just screwing on wider strips of wood on the front and back cross pieces?

If they’re braced well, probably nothing to gain by adding a full sheet. A sheet does make adding isos a little easier since everything is nice and even, but if you get it all flush it shouldn’t matter.
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post #2327 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I think I'm over thinking this! I'm just gonna get something like 1 inch thick MDF to replace the 1/4th inch plywood! One whole piece is probably best per chair. LOL



The sheet will cover the metal frame as one piece. It will be 22 inches by 24 inches in size. While I'm aware that 2 isolation feet will go on each chair up front....do I need to put isolation feet in the rear corner also if I plan on putting actuator in middle of the seat at the rear?

Yes, you’ll need 4 isos in that case. Get some rubber cement for the Hudson isos to glue back on; I’ve had a bunch come off both my risers from moving it around so much, works great. With the added weight of the seating, they don’t need much adhesion to stay put, but they do lose their grip fighting gravity.

You could also just add a 3/4” plywood sheet to each chair bottom and then another small square under the feet for standoffs and above the Crowsons, and is much lighter than MDF and less sawdust if cutting at home; that’ll give you 1.5” clearance from the frame. MDF is more dense, but it’s not fun to work with.

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post #2328 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 06:58 AM
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Yes, you’ll need 4 isos in that case. Get some rubber cement for the Hudson isos to glue back on; I’ve had a bunch come off both my risers from moving it around so much, works great. With the added weight of the seating, they don’t need much adhesion to stay put, but they do lose their grip fighting gravity.

You could also just add a 3/4” plywood sheet to each chair bottom and then another small square under the feet for standoffs and above the Crowsons, and is much lighter than MDF and less sawdust if cutting at home; that’ll give you 1.5” clearance from the frame. MDF is more dense, but it’s not fun to work with.
I wonder something. Could I just leave the 1/4th inch plywood to metal frame as is and just add 3/4 or 1 inch plywood at 5 diff places for standoffs (for feet and actuator)? I could glue the 3/4 inch plywood or screw it into the 1/4th inch plywood or just have it underneath free standing( I doubt it will move around with weight applied) How would that work vs whole new thick sheet bolted to the metal frame? I'm assuming its the same principle? That will give it 1 inch between actuator and metal frame. Will that work?

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post #2329 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 07:08 AM
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I wonder something. Could I just leave the 1/4th inch plywood to metal frame as is and just add 3/4 or 1 inch plywood at 5 diff places for standoffs (for feet and actuator)? I could glue the 3/4 inch plywood or screw it into the 1/4th inch plywood or just have it underneath free standing( I doubt it will move around with weight applied) How would that work vs whole new thick sheet bolted to the metal frame? I'm assuming its the same principle? That will give it 1 inch between actuator and metal frame. Will that work?


If you’re really worried about proximity to metal in the frame, why not just use ISOs near the metal and move the actuator somewhere towards the center of the seat?

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If you’re really worried about proximity to metal in the frame, why not just use ISOs near the metal and move the actuator somewhere towards the center of the seat?
I was just thinking that!!!! Since the center of the frame is open! But I was also thinking since the actuator is slightly taller than the feet and by being in the center of the inside frame it would be unstable? I'd have to test it to see how it is.

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post #2331 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 08:15 AM
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The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I wonder something. Could I just leave the 1/4th inch plywood to metal frame as is and just add 3/4 or 1 inch plywood at 5 diff places for standoffs (for feet and actuator)? I could glue the 3/4 inch plywood or screw it into the 1/4th inch plywood or just have it underneath free standing( I doubt it will move around with weight applied) How would that work vs whole new thick sheet bolted to the metal frame? I'm assuming its the same principle? That will give it 1 inch between actuator and metal frame. Will that work?

If the current sheet is bolted flush to the frame, adding little standoffs should work just fine too. Just glue them on and call it good, nice and simple. As long as it all moves together, it’ll transmit the energy the same. I know it’s a pain lining up all the holes to bolt to the couch frame. I think I did 16 bolts into the frame on my first version that replaced the couch feet and it wasn’t fun.

I wouldn’t recommend putting the MA’s in the middle. You want leverage against the edge of the frame, and if the middle isn’t braced really well the thin 1/4” ply will easily flex losing a lot of the potential energy. You also want to excite as many axes of movement as possible, helping to create a rocking motion by having the MA’s in the front or back, back works better for most as it carries the most weight. I’ve tried them all over, and rear and front work best for me.
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post #2332 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 10:45 AM
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Playing around as usual. I had some extra 5/8 inch pine wood precut laying around in garage or it looks like pine. Here is an example of what I did. I kept the 1/4th plywood and use stock chair feet to keep frame bolt to plywood...and just layed the 5/8 in wood under it with hudsons. This gets me 1 inch from actuator away from frame. Still shakes as much as before but chairs little wobbly from hudsons. Even if I just push my finger on the chair it moves. lol Thats normal right? So I may glue this wood piece and hudsons to the wood so it will be one whole piece when done. Pics are for testing purposes only...the wood and hudsons are just resting on plywood and isn't permantly mounted.

Now if @PioManiac or someone comes in and says I need another 5 inches of clearance I'm gonna lose it! LOL
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post #2333 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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If the current sheet is bolted flush to the frame, adding little standoffs should work just fine too. Just glue them on and call it good, nice and simple. As long as it all moves together, it’ll transmit the energy the same. I know it’s a pain lining up all the holes to bolt to the couch frame. I think I did 16 bolts into the frame on my first version that replaced the couch feet and it wasn’t fun.

I wouldn’t recommend putting the MA’s in the middle. You want leverage against the edge of the frame, and if the middle isn’t braced really well the thin 1/4” ply will easily flex losing a lot of the potential energy. You also want to excite as many axes of movement as possible, helping to create a rocking motion by having the MA’s in the front or back, back works better for most as it carries the most weight. I’ve tried them all over, and rear and front work best for me.
16 bolts? WOW. Even I find 4 bolts difficult especially lining up the holes to predrill. The main issue I had about the whole platform is my arm rest doesn't line up evenly with metal frame. Its about 1/4 inch off which is why whole thing was difficult to begin with. But I think I got it nailed down now with my latest picture! Best part was I had 2 of those same pieces laying around which avoided me buying more wood. Except I gonna buy glue! lol

Now if Ralph can come up with magnetically shielded transducers then we wouldn't have to obsess with moving it so far away from metal!

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post #2334 of 2341 Old 08-15-2019, 08:49 PM
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FINALLY DONE! I can say I'm glad I'm done. This project kicked my ass but it was worth all the hassle. lol

Final pics to show what I did. I'm loving it! This setup shakes my body much more than my old couch.

I want to thank EVERYONE (you know who you are!) on here that gave me ideas and continue to push me to improve the setup.....leveling of the frame, Hudson feet, platform idea, magnet issue, etc, etc. You guys rock!
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post #2335 of 2341 Old 08-16-2019, 02:50 AM
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FINALLY DONE! I can say I'm glad I'm done. This project kicked my ass but it was worth all the hassle. lol

Final pics to show what I did. I'm loving it! This setup shakes my body much more than my old couch.

I want to thank EVERYONE (you know who you are!) on here that gave me ideas and continue to push me to improve the setup.....leveling of the frame, Hudson feet, platform idea, magnet issue, etc, etc. You guys rock!
Nice and neatly done, congrats. Now go and watch the rocket lift off in Interstellar!
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post #2336 of 2341 Old 08-16-2019, 09:14 AM
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I want to thank EVERYONE (you know who you are!) on here that gave me ideas and continue to push me to improve the setup.....leveling of the frame, Hudson feet, platform idea, magnet issue, etc, etc. You guys rock!

Congrats! Now get some wobble on.

For me, an awesome side effect of the soft Hudson isos is also more cushion to the seating. I was surprised how much more comfortable my couch was after adding them all and removing them during various changes; it made it seem like I was sitting on a hard slab even though my seating is pretty comfy on its own.
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post #2337 of 2341 Old 08-16-2019, 04:36 PM
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What Hudson's are you guys using specifically. I did a quick search but getting too much info..

Also, Has anyone attached these with a screw through the middle part? I see that is an option but not sure what the best way is to mount this thing..
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post #2338 of 2341 Old 08-16-2019, 06:52 PM
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What Hudson's are you guys using specifically. I did a quick search but getting too much info..

Also, Has anyone attached these with a screw through the middle part? I see that is an option but not sure what the best way is to mount this thing..
I don't think you're supposed to screw in the middle hole. Its a vent hole to help cool off the crowsons.

Here are the hudsons. Its the 2.5" version. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079SV39KW...ing=UTF8&psc=1

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post #2339 of 2341 Old Yesterday, 04:03 AM
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I tried the Hudson's and went back to the original Penn's, I felt that the Hudson's slowed the movement down and maybe absorbed some of the vibrations and movement. I tested them with the rocket launch scene in Interstellar, I thought that the chair with the Penn's were a little more active. I will have to spend more time with them maybe.
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post #2340 of 2341 Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM
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I tried the Hudson's and went back to the original Penn's, I felt that the Hudson's slowed the movement down and maybe absorbed some of the vibrations and movement. I tested them with the rocket launch scene in Interstellar, I thought that the chair with the Penn's were a little more active. I will have to spend more time with them maybe.
Both feel very similar. It was hard for me to tell the difference as well. I noticed more difference when it got low like 15hz and lower and chairs were bouncier like if you're on a boat in the water type feel. But regular above 20hz felt the same for my seating. I think the biggest diff for me was the seating material more than the feet itself....and the wood platform to transmit vibrations better.

I only have 4 hudsons per chair.....but I think someone said previously that if you add more hudsons it even improves? Could be wrong but I think someone mentioned something like that? If you like Penns better then keep it that way.

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