The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 80 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2371 of 2451 Old 09-12-2019, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I know diff avrs have diff max distance you can use. I just used your 70ms as an example. My whole question was if entering in the minidsp was the correct way you would have done it if you only had 1 sub out and didn't have 2 with dual delay settings? I was just more curious of the way I mentioned earlier post was correct way of delays.

After looking at few threads it does make sense having crowsons at 0 and adding "whatever ms" to subs on minidsp for delay....but then you would need to add that same "whatever ms" on sub distance in AVR to get it back same time aligned as your speaker xover point. So that way crowsons are firing that much "whatever ms" delay. Please tell me I got this right! LOL
I didn't need to do anything in my miniDSP because my AVR was 100% capable on its own.
Like I said, I have no idea how others are achieving more negative delay, so can't comment on what works or how to incorporate it.
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post #2372 of 2451 Old 09-12-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Yes, good point, the price difference is negligible.

Do you find the lack of standby or remote control for volume a little bit of a nuisance?
Not at all. It's easy enough to get the amp to turn on/off automatically with the AVR if desired using a smart power strip or similar, and I've never wanted to adjust the volume, personally. I have it set where I like it and leave it there.

The most compelling benefit of the Crowson amp to me is that it's dead silent. On the other hand, the NX3000D is more powerful and the limiter is really nice to have to prevent clipping.

It's very easy to get the response super-flat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Alright, as promised, for those who want to flatten the iNuke response to 4Hz (+/- 0.5dB!) and only down ~1dB at 3Hz, here's a filter: LS 10Hz Q0.5 4.4dB
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post #2373 of 2451 Old 09-12-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
^^^^^^ Easiest way to think about it is whatever delay is added in the AVR (the farther away from 0 you get) will fire sooner (negative delay) and whatever is added in the miniDSP will fire later. So, it’s the opposite and can trip you up if you’re not used to thinking about it that way when setting multiple sub alignment on one subout with a miniDSP and or the whole negative delay thing with the TR devices like MAs.
Makes sense. Looks like I understand it then.

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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I didn't need to do anything in my miniDSP because my AVR was 100% capable on its own.
Like I said, I have no idea how others are achieving more negative delay, so can't comment on what works or how to incorporate it.
Agghh! I don't know why but for some reason I thought you tried it before. Yeah, it makes sense if your AVR can do it. So basically you're not using delays at all on your minidsp? Just the beq, house curve, etc and connecting subs together for most part?

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post #2374 of 2451 Old 09-12-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Not at all. It's easy enough to get the amp to turn on/off automatically with the AVR if desired using a smart power strip or similar, and I've never wanted to adjust the volume, personally. I have it set where I like it and leave it there.

The most compelling benefit of the Crowson amp to me is that it's dead silent. On the other hand, the NX3000D is more powerful and the limiter is really nice to have to prevent clipping.

It's very easy to get the response super-flat:
Smart power strip. Sadly I've not heard of that! I'll check it out.

Ah, so to get a flat response you just configure an internal DSP curve. Didn't think of that. Itake it that should apply to the re bodied NX models?

Last edited by MOberhardt; 09-12-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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post #2375 of 2451 Old 09-13-2019, 06:55 AM
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Just found out on my prepro I can set the speaker distance max of 99 feet! Wow....that's extreme! Now off to try to figure out how much delay I really need for my crowsons!

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post #2376 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 08:34 AM
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Just got my Crowsons and can't wait to get them set up. I have a few questions on using the Behringer NX3000D and miniDSP 2x4 HD with the MAs. My current set up is a Denon X4300H with dual sub outs to two SVS SB12-NSDs. I have two rows of seats. One row will have 4 MAs and one row will have 3 MAs.

My plan is to use one sub out from the Denon to one of the miniDSP inputs (or should I use both sub outs from the Denon to both inputs on the miniDSP?). Then from the miniDSP>output 1 to subwoofer 1 and output 2 to subwoofer 2. The Behringer has two inputs and two outputs. My first question is do I (or should I) use the remaining two ouputs from the miniDSP to the two inputs on the Behringer? or can I (should I) use one output from the mini DSP to one input on the Behringer. I'll then use both outputs (one output for each row of seats) on the Behringer.

I've never used a pro AMP and the connections have me a little confused. Is this cable the recommendation for going from the mini DSP to the Behringer inputs? I'll also need to terminate my speaker wires in a Speakon connector. Does this one look right?

Any help is much appreciated.

Ray
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post #2377 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Smart power strip. Sadly I've not heard of that! I'll check it out.

Ah, so to get a flat response you just configure an internal DSP curve. Didn't think of that. Itake it that should apply to the re bodied NX models?
Yes, the NX models are the same.

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Originally Posted by guptown View Post
Just got my Crowsons and can't wait to get them set up. I have a few questions on using the Behringer NX3000D and miniDSP 2x4 HD with the MAs. My current set up is a Denon X4300H with dual sub outs to two SVS SB12-NSDs. I have two rows of seats. One row will have 4 MAs and one row will have 3 MAs.
7 total MAs? That's an odd number, how do you plan on wiring them to each channel?

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Originally Posted by guptown View Post
My plan is to use one sub out from the Denon to one of the miniDSP inputs (or should I use both sub outs from the Denon to both inputs on the miniDSP?). Then from the miniDSP>output 1 to subwoofer 1 and output 2 to subwoofer 2. The Behringer has two inputs and two outputs. My first question is do I (or should I) use the remaining two ouputs from the miniDSP to the two inputs on the Behringer? or can I (should I) use one output from the mini DSP to one input on the Behringer. I'll then use both outputs (one output for each row of seats) on the Behringer.
You can send a single cable from the mDSP output to the NX input A, then use BIAMP A mode on the NX to use that single input for both outputs. Just remove any HPF/LPF that are enabled by default.

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Originally Posted by guptown View Post
I've never used a pro AMP and the connections have me a little confused. Is this cable the recommendation for going from the mini DSP to the Behringer inputs? I'll also need to terminate my speaker wires in a Speakon connector. Does this one look right?
I used regular RCA cables and just put an RCA to 1/4" TS adapter on the end, but those RCA to XLR cables should work too. Those Neutrik connectors are the same ones I used. Some people choose to buy 4-pole Neutriks instead of 2-pole, and if you ever want to bridge your NX3000D for a future use you will need a 4-pole connector, but the the 2-poles do work fine.

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post #2378 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
7 total MAs? That's an odd number, how do you plan on wiring them to each channel?

I didn't realize what a conundrum this would be until I sat down last night to figure out how I was going to wire these up. I'm using one MA per arm rest. My seats are modular so my row of two seats has three arm rests and the row of three seats has four arm rests.

Here's what I have so far..

Four MAs wired in series-parallel for an 8 ohm load





Three MAs wired in parallel for a 2.67 ohm load




From the Behringer manual:

"Delivers 2 x 1500 Watts into 2 Ohms; 2 x 900 Watts into 4 Ohms;3000 Watts into 4 Ohms (bridge
mode) "

So it doesn't look like I can use bridge mode in this setup. Would I then use the separate outputs and still be OK? Any problems having two different ohm loads?
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post #2379 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 10:51 AM
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I also found this answer in a Q&A on how to wire three speakers to one amp to get a higher ohm load than wiring in parallel...


"You could wire two of the speakers in series (Rt = R1 +R2+ R3…Rn) resulting in a combined resistance of those two speakers to 16 ohms and then wire the third in parallel with first two giving you a total resistance at the amp of 5.333 ohms, which most amplifiers can handle."


Although I'd need to see a wiring diagram to understand it better.
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post #2380 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 11:11 AM
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Those Behringer power ratings are vastly over-exaggerated.

The 3 in parallel on one channel is a pretty good match for a channel of the NX3000D.

The 4 in series-parallel (8-ohm load) is not a good match for a channel of the NX3000D. I think each MA would only get around 70W each in that scenario. You'd be much better off wiring them in parallel for a 2-ohm load.

You would only potentially use bridge mode if you stepped up to 8 MAs, but even then you could not use bridge mode, run 4 on each channel, and be able to adjust volume on each channel individually.
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post #2381 of 2451 Old 09-16-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Those Behringer power ratings are vastly over-exaggerated.

The 3 in parallel on one channel is a pretty good match for a channel of the NX3000D.

The 4 in series-parallel (8-ohm load) is not a good match for a channel of the NX3000D. I think each MA would only get around 70W each in that scenario. You'd be much better off wiring them in parallel for a 2-ohm load.

You would only potentially use bridge mode if you stepped up to 8 MAs, but even then you could not use bridge mode, run 4 on each channel, and be able to adjust volume on each channel individually.
@aron7awol that helps a lot. I'll proceed with that plan. Thank you.
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post #2382 of 2451 Old 09-18-2019, 01:38 PM
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Hi all,
In this thread I've seen reference to Hudson iso's being superior. Can someone link me to exactly which ones they are using?

Also is it worth it to cut my carpet and put plywood under the MA's?

Thanks!

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post #2383 of 2451 Old 09-18-2019, 06:52 PM
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I believe these are the droids your looking for.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079SV39KW..._I7TGDb5E7BWKS

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post #2384 of 2451 Old 09-18-2019, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
I believe these are the droids your looking for.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079SV39KW..._I7TGDb5E7BWKS
Thank you sir!

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post #2385 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 02:14 PM
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Does anyone have a good suggestion/links for speaker cables from the Behringer twistlock to banana plugs, other? Or just buy twist lock cables and cut one end off?


And is the technical name for those connectors speakon? The manual is unclear but I've been looking online at pictures

Thanks.

Last edited by MOberhardt; 09-19-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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post #2386 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Does anyone have a good suggestion/links for speaker cables from the Behringer twistlock to banana plugs, other? Or just buy twist lock cables and cut one end off?


And is the technical name for those connectors speakon? The manual is unclear but I've been looking online at pictures

Thanks.
These are the ones I used. You just connect them up to bare speaker wire.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #2387 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
These are the ones I used. You just connect them up to bare speaker wire.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks! I did see those, but for once the amazon pictures are so sparse and I could not really see either end!!!

4 pole though? On each output? So if you want to run one actuator from each output, how do you wire that?
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post #2388 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Thanks! I did see those, but for once the amazon pictures are so sparse and I could not really see either end!!!

4 pole though? On each output? So if you want to run one actuator from each output, how do you wire that?
You can wire just 2 poles of the 4-pole to do that.
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post #2389 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
You can wire just 2 poles of the 4-pole to do that.
OK thanks, so -1 to black, and +1 to red, and ignore the -2 +2 pins.
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post #2390 of 2451 Old 09-19-2019, 11:51 PM
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OK thanks, so -1 to black, and +1 to red, and ignore the -2 +2 pins.
Correct.

But if you are using both channels on your amp, you can use 1+ and 1- for channel A and 2+and 2- for channel B. Then just connect the ONE speakon to channel A on your amp(which if you look at the back of your amp, contains signal for both channel A and B)= just one plug for both channels

That is the whole point for 4 (and 8) pole speakons: less plugs
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post #2391 of 2451 Old 09-20-2019, 12:23 AM
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Correct.

But if you are using both channels on your amp, you can use 1+ and 1- for channel A and 2+and 2- for channel B. Then just connect the ONE speakon to channel A on your amp(which if you look at the back of your amp, contains signal for both channel A and B)= just one plug for both channels

That is the whole point for 4 (and 8) pole speakons: less plugs
Ah nice I'll do it that way! So two connections from the minidsp to the amp, and one plug on the speaker side to the two actuators.
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post #2392 of 2451 Old 09-20-2019, 07:20 AM
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Ah nice I'll do it that way! So two connections from the minidsp to the amp, and one plug on the speaker side to the two actuators.
You actually just need one cable to the amp You have a NX3000D right? Just set it to bi-amp1 config, and it will send the signal from input1 to both outputs
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post #2393 of 2451 Old 09-20-2019, 12:02 PM
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You actually just need one cable to the amp You have a NX3000D right? Just set it to bi-amp1 config, and it will send the signal from input1 to both outputs
Ah great even better!
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post #2394 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 09:11 AM
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Hi all,
Running a mini dsp 2x4hd here...2x SVS PB3000 and 2x Crowsons. I have one out for the crowsons and one for each sub. I am doing BEQ for every movie I watch but handling the crowson out is a bit more complicated because I attempt to undo Audyssey on the crowson out.

Basically Audyssey cuts a peak centered at 24hz that has ~10db of room gain and slopes sharply down to 30hz and gradually to 40hz. Based on REW its also going to be cutting a peak at 17hz thats also likely around 8-10db.

So I added filters to reverse that peak on the Crowson out and also added 5db gain to invert the -5db trims I have set for the subs in the AVR.

My question is rather then doing BEQ thats total guesswork above and beyond undo'ing the Audyssey curve is there a good 'catch all' set of filters to handle bass under 20hz that won't clip the crowsons but will still be 'close enough' for the BEQ stuff?

Loaded question I know, appreciate any learning experiences some of you have had if you've been in the same boat.

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post #2395 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Hi all,
Running a mini dsp 2x4hd here...2x SVS PB3000 and 2x Crowsons. I have one out for the crowsons and one for each sub. I am doing BEQ for every movie I watch but handling the crowson out is a bit more complicated because I attempt to undo Audyssey on the crowson out.

Basically Audyssey cuts a peak centered at 24hz that has ~10db of room gain and slopes sharply down to 30hz and gradually to 40hz. Based on REW its also going to be cutting a peak at 17hz thats also likely around 8-10db.

So I added filters to reverse that peak on the Crowson out and also added 5db gain to invert the -5db trims I have set for the subs in the AVR.

My question is rather then doing BEQ thats total guesswork above and beyond undo'ing the Audyssey curve is there a good 'catch all' set of filters to handle bass under 20hz that won't clip the crowsons but will still be 'close enough' for the BEQ stuff?

Loaded question I know, appreciate any learning experiences some of you have had if you've been in the same boat.
So audyssey isn't just smoothing the subwoofer output, it is attenuating it? Crazy. I'm running an Anthem, and I didn't think it was doing this, but no I'll check.

At any rate, wouldn't you figure what the curve was and do a positive low shelf filter at 24Hz or whatever it was. I wrote a powershell script to update xml files to add a ls to an output (the one above for the Behringer flat correction).
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post #2396 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
So audyssey isn't just smoothing the subwoofer output, it is attenuating it? Crazy. I'm running an Anthem, and I didn't think it was doing this, but no I'll check.

At any rate, wouldn't you figure what the curve was and do a positive low shelf filter at 24Hz or whatever it was. I wrote a powershell script to update xml files to add a ls to an output (the one above for the Behringer flat correction).
Audyseey eqs the response to flat. So if there is 10db over flat of room gain at 25hz then it flattens that out and you effectively have 10db of headroom at that frequency.

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post #2397 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Audyseey eqs the response to flat. So if there is 10db over flat of room gain at 25hz then it flattens that out and you effectively have 10db of headroom at that frequency.
Hmm. Does the AVR you have have separate dual sub output? I've an Anthem and it doesn't, both outputs treated the same. If it does, I guess you could use the output one to the subs (and to input one on the miniDSP) and output to to the inut 2 and the crowsons, and don't have audessey on subwoofer output 2.
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post #2398 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Hmm. Does the AVR you have have separate dual sub output? I've an Anthem and it doesn't, both outputs treated the same. If it does, I guess you could use the output one to the subs (and to input one on the miniDSP) and output to to the inut 2 and the crowsons, and don't have audessey on subwoofer output 2.
It does have dual outputs, the problem is if during calibration there is no audible output from output 2 then Audyssey won't use the output. I think undo'ing the EQ then boosting is my only option here.

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post #2399 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 10:25 PM
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It does have dual outputs, the problem is if during calibration there is no audible output from output 2 then Audyssey won't use the output. I think undo'ing the EQ then boosting is my only option here.
Hmm, that is a shame. I wonder if you contacted support, explained the need for it for a Crowson, if they'd consider adding that ability.
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post #2400 of 2451 Old 09-23-2019, 10:50 PM
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It does have dual outputs, the problem is if during calibration there is no audible output from output 2 then Audyssey won't use the output. I think undo'ing the EQ then boosting is my only option here.
I just had another idea - if when Audessey runs, it does each sub separately, and you can see the curve Audessey is using for each subwoofer, you could replicate that curve on the miniDSP and output it to one of the subwoofers, and then run audessey, and it should hopefully, on that output, apply no corrections. Then remove the surve from the minidsp, and use that one for the Crowson
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