The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 81 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 2496 Old 09-24-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
I just had another idea - if when Audessey runs, it does each sub separately, and you can see the curve Audessey is using for each subwoofer, you could replicate that curve on the miniDSP and output it to one of the subwoofers, and then run audessey, and it should hopefully, on that output, apply no corrections. Then remove the surve from the minidsp, and use that one for the Crowson
I'll give it a shot when my patience is high. Really I'm nitpicking at this point, the experience with dual subs/crowsons is still fantastic.

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post #2402 of 2496 Old 09-25-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Hi all,
Running a mini dsp 2x4hd here...2x SVS PB3000 and 2x Crowsons. I have one out for the crowsons and one for each sub. I am doing BEQ for every movie I watch but handling the crowson out is a bit more complicated because I attempt to undo Audyssey on the crowson out.

Basically Audyssey cuts a peak centered at 24hz that has ~10db of room gain and slopes sharply down to 30hz and gradually to 40hz. Based on REW its also going to be cutting a peak at 17hz thats also likely around 8-10db.

So I added filters to reverse that peak on the Crowson out and also added 5db gain to invert the -5db trims I have set for the subs in the AVR.

My question is rather then doing BEQ thats total guesswork above and beyond undo'ing the Audyssey curve is there a good 'catch all' set of filters to handle bass under 20hz that won't clip the crowsons but will still be 'close enough' for the BEQ stuff?

Loaded question I know, appreciate any learning experiences some of you have had if you've been in the same boat.
Is your room treated? Have you considered running with Audyssey off and EQ'ing the subs + Crowsons with the MiniDSP?

How did you measure the filters that Audyssey is applying? Did you measure directly from the sub out on the AVR??

Once you have reversed Audyssey's filters, you should be able to use BEQ without any concern.


Quote:
Audyseey eqs the response to flat. So if there is 10db over flat of room gain at 25hz then it flattens that out and you effectively have 10db of headroom at that frequency.
That's not quite how it works. There is no free ride with EQ, cuts eat up headroom just like boosts.
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post #2403 of 2496 Old 09-25-2019, 04:56 PM
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BTW, if anyone is using a miniDSP, Behringer, and would like to update the output for the crowson to use Aron7Awols Low Shelf filter, here is a sample powershell (windows) script to update them and create new files in a subdirectory. It doesn't create the destination directory, so create it manually. If you want add a line for it to do it automatically.


Note that this depends what output you have the crowson on. For me it is Output 1, and I use "EQ1", and that corresponds to PEQ_3_10. If you have it on a different output you can find which one it is by opening a BEQ XML, saving it, then manually add the filter, and save it again, as a different file name, and compare the files (eg WinMerge).

Code:
$InputDirectory = "D:\miniDSPBEQ\Movie BEQs"
$OutputDirectory = "D:\miniDSPBEQ\Movie BEQs\Behringer LS"

$files = Get-Childitem $InputDirectory *.xml 
foreach ($file in $files){
    $xmldata = [xml](Get-Content $file.FullName); 
    $node = $xmldata.setting.filter | Where-Object { $_.name -eq "PEQ_3_10" }
    $node.freq = "10"
    $node.q = ".5"
    $node.boost = "4.4"
    $node.type = "SL"
    $node.dec = "1.0001661767013137,-1.998846932505161,0.9986813073310071,1.9988470421047522,-0.9988473744327293,"
    $node.hex = "3f800572,bfffda37,3f7fa994,3fffda38,bf7fb476,"
    $outputFile = "$OutputDirectory\$($file.Name)"
    $xmldata.Save($outputFile)
}
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post #2404 of 2496 Old 09-25-2019, 06:28 PM
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Quick question can the Crowson Amp power 3 transducers? I really need only 3 but know that creates an odd load for an amp.
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post #2405 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
Quick question can the Crowson Amp power 3 transducers? I really need only 3 but know that creates an odd load for an amp.
It can drive up to four so two would be in parallel and the third would connect off the second output, I would contact Crowson to verify the connections.
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post #2406 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Is your room treated? Have you considered running with Audyssey off and EQ'ing the subs + Crowsons with the MiniDSP?

How did you measure the filters that Audyssey is applying? Did you measure directly from the sub out on the AVR??

Once you have reversed Audyssey's filters, you should be able to use BEQ without any concern.
I have the Audyssey mobile app which shows before eq and after eq. I don't know the exact filters it applies have to guess based on the graph.

Yes I have room treatments. I am +/- 5db on FRC wiithout EQ, +/- 3.5 db (not counting room gain peak under 30hz) without EQ on the sub.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That's not quite how it works. There is no free ride with EQ, cuts eat up headroom just like boosts.
Hmm per Ed Mullen a cut reduces amp gain at the point of the cut. So if theres 10db of headroom at 10hz and you cut it to flat then you have gained 10db of headroom at that frequency due to lowered gain.

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post #2407 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
I have the Audyssey mobile app which shows before eq and after eq. I don't know the exact filters it applies have to guess based on the graph.
The "after" graphs in the app are only an approximation of what Audyssey has done, it is not an actual measurement of your response, I would not base any sort of reverse engineered EQ on them. You need actual in-room frequency response measurements, or better still, a measurement of the electrical signal from the sub out with Audyssey on/off.


Quote:
Yes I have room treatments. I am +/- 5db on FRC wiithout EQ, +/- 3.5 db (not counting room gain peak under 30hz) without EQ on the sub.
So you do have measurement equipment (besides the Audyssey app)??


Quote:
Hmm per Ed Mullen a cut reduces amp gain at the point of the cut. So if theres 10db of headroom at 10hz and you cut it to flat then you have gained 10db of headroom at that frequency due to lowered gain.
Not how it works.

@Wayne A. Pflughaupt explains it much more eloquently than I can, see this post.
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post #2408 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The "after" graphs in the app are only an approximation of what Audyssey has done, it is not an actual measurement of your response, I would not base any sort of reverse engineered EQ on them. You need actual in-room frequency response measurements, or better still, a measurement of the electrical signal from the sub out with Audyssey on/off.




So you do have measurement equipment (besides the Audyssey app)??




Not how it works.

@Wayne A. Pflughaupt explains it much more eloquently than I can, see this post.
I assumed Audysseys after graph was pretty accurate. I guess I'll just run REW to confirm what it did. I have to lug my wifes desktop pc (way lighter then mine) downstairs which is a pain so I don't run REW that often.

Very interesting stuff, thanks Alan. So in theory I could get more headroom out of my subs by greatly lowering the filtering on it as low as possible frequency wise? (Using the audyssey app thats an option).

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post #2409 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
I assumed Audysseys after graph was pretty accurate.
Most users do, and Audyssey doesn't make it clear at all.


Quote:
I guess I'll just run REW to confirm what it did. I have to lug my wifes desktop pc (way lighter then mine) downstairs which is a pain so I don't run REW that often.
You need to get a cheap laptop.

If you are interested, there is a method to measure exactly what Audyssey is doing with the sub output using REW. I have never had the need so am not that familiar with it, but I know it is mentioned a few times in this thread.

Quote:
Very interesting stuff, thanks Alan. So in theory I could get more headroom out of my subs by greatly lowering the filtering on it as low as possible frequency wise? (Using the audyssey app thats an option).
Correct.
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post #2410 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Most users do, and Audyssey doesn't make it clear at all.




You need to get a cheap laptop.

If you are interested, there is a method to measure exactly what Audyssey is doing with the sub output using REW. I have never had the need so am not that familiar with it, but I know it is mentioned a few times in this thread.



Correct.
Well I thought I was out of the rabbit hole, thanks for dragging me back in! Do you personally cut your sub 30 hz room gain or just leave it in there? Man I can't believe so many are misinformed on this, its seems like I would have read in more places that cutting room gain is eating amp headroom. I believe you on this because I see you have been a veteran on the forums for many years and have likely seen it all.

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post #2411 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Well I thought I was out of the rabbit hole, thanks for dragging me back in! Do you personally cut your sub 30 hz room gain or just leave it in there? Man I can't believe so many are misinformed on this, its seems like I would have read in more places that cutting room gain is eating amp headroom. I believe you on this because I see you have been a veteran on the forums for many years and have likely seen it all.
I don't get much room gain (5K cubic foot room) so I actually boost the ULF with a low shelf filter.

Don't get me wrong, if you have sufficient headroom, cutting peaks is not going to "ruin" your experience. Plenty of people do it every day without issue. I only wanted you to be aware that boosts and cuts can eat up headroom.

Cutting room gain just on the ULF is a bit of different animal than cutting large peaks higher in the sub frequency range. When you cut a large peak, you compensate by boosting the rest of the range (to keep it flat)...when you cut room gain, you aren't going to raise up the rest. This is more of a "pure" cut filter and shouldn't use up much headroom if any at all.
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post #2412 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 12:43 PM
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@Alan P

Matt is right, a cut at a particular frequency does create headroom at that frequency.

What Wayne is talking about in his post, is that if you are tailoring a response and are choosing between boosting low areas or cutting high areas, a lot of people think that if they choose to only cut the high areas they will end up with more headroom as opposed to only boosting the low areas. Where that logic falls apart is that the overall level of the signal is different in the two cases (lower in the case of bringing the high areas down, and higher in the case of bringing the low areas up) and after doing a level adjustment to bring them to the same level, the imagined headroom difference has disappeared as the response and level becomes identical in each case.

Think of it this way, if a room response is flat other than one peak, and you bring that peak down, you don't need to adjust the level and everything is flat. You've gained headroom at that frequency (relative to all the other frequencies) and that's the only thing that's changed.

Edit to add: I think the opposite extreme example demonstrates the concept Wayne is talking about very well. Start with a response that is flat other than one dip. Obviously by far the easiest way to flatten that response is to simply boost that dip, but the flawed logic causes some people to think that if they instead bring everything else down to the level of the dip (which requires multiple filters) they haven't eaten into any headroom. Which is technically true at that moment (in the same manner that reducing overall gain creates headroom), except the level is now lower than where they started, so they now have to increase overall gain to get that now-flat response back up to the level it started at. All that headroom they thought they were preserving just disappeared with that gain increase.

At the end of the day, the response is the response, and resulting headroom is frequency dependent. After tailoring the response, there will always be certain frequencies that have less headroom than others. The method of tailoring the response doesn't affect this.

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post #2413 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
@Alan P

Matt is right, a cut at a particular frequency does create headroom at that frequency.
This all makes perfect sense Aron! Thanks for clarifying things. Just goes to show that even after this many years, I can still learn something new.

Sorry for any misguidance @Matt Fowler .
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post #2414 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This all makes perfect sense Aron! Thanks for clarifying things. Just goes to show that even after this many years, I can still learn something new.

Sorry for any misguidance @Matt Fowler .
No worries, still at work so didn't waste any time on it yet.

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post #2415 of 2496 Old 09-26-2019, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Hi all,
Running a mini dsp 2x4hd here...2x SVS PB3000 and 2x Crowsons. I have one out for the crowsons and one for each sub. I am doing BEQ for every movie I watch but handling the crowson out is a bit more complicated because I attempt to undo Audyssey on the crowson out.
The way we all do it is we enter this sort of "user EQ" on the outputs in the mDSP, and the BEQ filters get entered on the inputs. The BEQD merge function even automates combining the BEQ filters on the inputs with the "user EQ" on the outputs for each title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Basically Audyssey cuts a peak centered at 24hz that has ~10db of room gain and slopes sharply down to 30hz and gradually to 40hz. Based on REW its also going to be cutting a peak at 17hz thats also likely around 8-10db.
If you want to see exactly what Audy is doing, you can use the Crowson output of your mDSP as a direct input in REW and run a sweep. Then add filters to that Crowson output to try to counter what Audy is doing and then run another sweep. Repeat until you are satisfied with the response.
Quote:
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So I added filters to reverse that peak on the Crowson out and also added 5db gain to invert the -5db trims I have set for the subs in the AVR.
Why are you adding that 5dB gain? You are increasing the risk of clipping your mDSP by doing so. Can you turn up your Crowson amp instead? That would be a much better approach. In fact, if you can turn your sub amp(s) and Crowson amp up, I'd suggest you lower the sub trim even further than the -5 you have it at to reduce the chance of clipping your AVR sub out and/or your mDSP.
Quote:
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My question is rather then doing BEQ thats total guesswork above and beyond undo'ing the Audyssey curve is there a good 'catch all' set of filters to handle bass under 20hz that won't clip the crowsons but will still be 'close enough' for the BEQ stuff?
What do you mean by total guesswork? I've eliminated any and all guesswork for the nearly 1,000 titles I've designed filters for.
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Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #2416 of 2496 Old 09-30-2019, 04:20 PM
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Going to finally purchase some Crowsons. What’s the opinion on the Crowson amp? I like that it is silent and has a remote. Need a silent amp as it will be directly behind my seating. I have an old Buttkicker 1000 but it is pretty old so may get the Crowson amp to replace. Any opinions appreciated.
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post #2417 of 2496 Old 09-30-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
Going to finally purchase some Crowsons. What’s the opinion on the Crowson amp? I like that it is silent and has a remote. Need a silent amp as it will be directly behind my seating. I have an old Buttkicker 1000 but it is pretty old so may get the Crowson amp to replace. Any opinions appreciated.
I guess if you don't mind the cost, it does seem to be a good match. Silent, air cooled, and flat. The only downside I believe is the low pass can't be set any lower than 40, and some people prefer to have it at 30.
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post #2418 of 2496 Old 09-30-2019, 05:44 PM
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I have the Crowson amp, and very happy with it. The remote
is small, but is really nice with the stainless steel face plate.
Agree with the post above, it is costly, but I have no regrets in
spending that extra money.

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BTW, what frequency are people running their low pass on? I'm currently just using 40Hz, and am getting used to it, but am wondering if I should experiment a bit, and with what...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vardo View Post
I have the Crowson amp, and very happy with it. The remote
is small, but is really nice with the stainless steel face plate.
Agree with the post above, it is costly, but I have no regrets in
spending that extra money.

Craig
Thanks for the info. How many are you powering with the amp?
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post #2421 of 2496 Old 09-30-2019, 08:57 PM
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If the 40hz on crowson amp isn't low enough that is easy to fix in minidsp outputs.

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Does anyone have any recommendations for xlr to RCA cable or adapter? I need something with good shielding. I'm getting mains noise induced into the miniDSP when the Behringer is connected. I tried the monoprice cable you can get at Amazon.
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Does anyone have any recommendations for xlr to RCA cable or adapter? I need something with good shielding. I'm getting mains noise induced into the miniDSP when the Behringer is connected. I tried the monoprice cable you can get at Amazon.
Try the Blue Jeans brand. Very high quality shielding. They make rcas and xlrs.
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Quote:
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Thanks for the info. How many are you powering with the amp?

I'm running 3 Crowson actuator's off of the of the Crowson amp.
The 2nd and 3rd actuator are wired in series. I get plenty of
tactile feel with this setup. You don't need mega watts to run these
actuators IMO. The Crowson amp has ample power to run 4 actuators.

Craig
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Try the Blue Jeans brand. Very high quality shielding. They make rcas and xlrs.
Thanks. Yes I was looking there, but struggling to find a page where they had options for mixed connectors on a cable. I might email them.
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Does anyone have any recommendations for xlr to RCA cable or adapter? I need something with good shielding. I'm getting mains noise induced into the miniDSP when the Behringer is connected. I tried the monoprice cable you can get at Amazon.
I know you grounded your mDSP to your AVR after our previous discussion, but did you also ground the Behringer to the AVR? That made a huge difference for me.

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post #2427 of 2496 Old 10-01-2019, 05:31 PM
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I know you grounded your mDSP to your AVR after our previous discussion, but did you also ground the Behringer to the AVR? That made a huge difference for me.
Yes, as well as I could. I couldn't find a native ground point on it though so just did one from under the top cover to the casing. When I did that it did improve it, but I'm still observing a 10db amount of noise on the minidsp input when I connect the output to the behringer.

How and where did you ground the Behringer? Should I try putting a hole thru it and finding a point on the main board, possibly?

Also, I checked out the monoprice cable and it is connected all ok, so the xlr the shield is to pins 1 and 3, and then to the casing of the connector. I thought possibly I had a faulty one where they only connected one.

BTW, do you use a particular type of cable for grounding, or any wire OK, like speaker cable?

Oy yes, also, the noise is 50Hz (aussie mains), so from what I'm reading that means more induced noise rather than ground noise _I think_. I think of it was ground noise it would be 100Hz, twice mains freq.

Last edited by MOberhardt; 10-01-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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post #2428 of 2496 Old 10-01-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
How and where did you ground the Behringer? Should I try putting a hole thru it and finding a point on the main board, possibly?

BTW, do you use a particular type of cable for grounding, or any wire OK, like speaker cable?
I used speaker wire and I removed one of the fan screws, stuck the wire in, and put the screw in just so it was tight enough not to move but I didn't crank it down too hard.

Do you measure a difference when you connect/disconnect the ground wire?
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post #2429 of 2496 Old 10-01-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I used speaker wire and I removed one of the fan screws, stuck the wire in, and put the screw in just so it was tight enough not to move but I didn't crank it down too hard.

Do you measure a difference when you connect/disconnect the ground wire?
Ah ok the speaker grill. I was thinking of that also - but when I did the fan swap to the noctura, it the screw to casing seemed pretty isolated with little metal as the screw goes into plastic, so would need to rely on a metal on metal touch on the screw through the hole in the case.

I'll retry.

I didn't actually measure the diff when I did the ground wire, but I do recall it did make a difference. I'll try it again. I might have a look inside see if I could see where would be a good spot.
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post #2430 of 2496 Old 10-01-2019, 06:34 PM
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Ah ok the speaker grill. I was thinking of that also - but when I did the fan swap to the noctura, it the screw to casing seemed pretty isolated with little metal as the screw goes into plastic, so would need to rely on a metal on metal touch on the screw through the hole in the case.

I'll retry.

I didn't actually measure the diff when I did the ground wire, but I do recall it did make a difference. I'll try it again. I might have a look inside see if I could see where would be a good spot.
I think it's the connection between the wire and the inside of the screw hole that is doing the work for me, not the screw itself.

I asked about whether you tested connected/disconnected because I wonder if it gets rid of most but not all of the noise. For all I know, there might be a 10dB difference for me too if I disconnect my Behringer from the mDSP, but I never tested it. I think it's great that you're testing this in so much detail and am looking forward to seeing the results. You might as well compare the way you have it grounded now with the screw hole I used to see if there's any difference there as well.
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Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 10-01-2019 at 07:00 PM.
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