The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 86 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2551 of 2577 Old 02-06-2020, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
^^^ Not necessarily. I'm guessing the isos that you have in back are there to help bridge the gap between the MAs and eliminate sag in the middle of the couch frame.

I would always suggest you try it all the different ways and stick with the one you like best but I realize that can be a lot of work.

You could also try I M I M I across the back and see if that's an improvement.

Based on my experience, I would guess you will prefer more isos over less, because adding more seems to decrease net spring constant (make things bouncier and lower the natural frequency).

I'll explain what I mean by that in a little more detail than before...

If the isos were linear springs, doubling the number of springs would double the spring constant (make things stiffer). However, they are not linear springs, and they become stiffer as they have to support more weight. So in this case, doubling the number of isos also reduces the amount of weight supported by each iso, which make things less stiff. So when we double the number of isos, we are increasing stiffness by having twice as many isos but also decreasing stiffness of each iso because they are supporting half the weight. That decrease seemed to be of a greater magnitude than the increase in my experience because things became more bouncy overall when I added more isos.
Fantastic advice as usual. You should probably get added to the Mt. Rushmore of AVSForum legends that I'm sure exists somewhere.
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post #2552 of 2577 Old 02-06-2020, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
^^^ Not necessarily. I'm guessing the isos that you have in back are there to help bridge the gap between the MAs and eliminate sag in the middle of the couch frame.

I would always suggest you try it all the different ways and stick with the one you like best but I realize that can be a lot of work.

You could also try I M I M I across the back and see if that's an improvement.

Based on my experience, I would guess you will prefer more isos over less, because adding more seems to decrease net spring constant (make things bouncier and lower the natural frequency).

I'll explain what I mean by that in a little more detail than before...

If the isos were linear springs, doubling the number of springs would double the spring constant (make things stiffer). However, they are not linear springs, and they become stiffer as they have to support more weight. So in this case, doubling the number of isos also reduces the amount of weight supported by each iso, which make things less stiff. So when we double the number of isos, we are increasing stiffness by having twice as many isos but also decreasing stiffness of each iso because they are supporting half the weight. That decrease seemed to be of a greater magnitude than the increase in my experience because things became more bouncy overall when I added more isos.

I took your advice of I M I M I in the back and it was very good, I also added two more Iso's to the front and two along the sides closer to the rear. So 7 in front 2 on the sites and 3 in the back with the MA's. Was able to turn the gain from 55/80 to 40/80 and get equal or better wobble. Thanks!
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post #2553 of 2577 Old 02-08-2020, 10:09 PM
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Reading a bit out of the Crowson manual: they caution against too low of a LPF; that it can cause the MAs to miss some of the faster effects making a gunshot feel more like a ‘thud’ than a quick ‘crack’. Since I’ve had my MAs I’ve been using the lowest LPF available on my D501 (40hz).

Seems like everyone likes lower LPFs here (some even much lower than 40hz). Curious if there are individuals who prefer a higher LPF such as the 100hz as recommended in Crowson manual?
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post #2554 of 2577 Old 02-09-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Reading a bit out of the Crowson manual: they caution against too low of a LPF; that it can cause the MAs to miss some of the faster effects making a gunshot feel more like a ‘thud’ than a quick ‘crack’. Since I’ve had my MAs I’ve been using the lowest LPF available on my D501 (40hz).

Seems like everyone likes lower LPFs here (some even much lower than 40hz). Curious if there are individuals who prefer a higher LPF such as the 100hz as recommended in Crowson manual?

I don't use 100 as I feel that is too high but I am somewhere in between 40 and 100, I would guess 60 or so. I tested it using sniper rifle scenes in the Accountant and Lone Survivor as well as the Gatling gun/helicopter scene in the Matrix. Also, some horror films with slamming doors and footsteps above come alive a little more. It's not a cutoff it's a roll off and the other important factor to take into consideration is what volume level you watch movies at. I am around -25 so raising it from 40 to 60 helps me.
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post #2555 of 2577 Old 02-09-2020, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Reading a bit out of the Crowson manual: they caution against too low of a LPF; that it can cause the MAs to miss some of the faster effects making a gunshot feel more like a ‘thud’ than a quick ‘crack’. Since I’ve had my MAs I’ve been using the lowest LPF available on my D501 (40hz).

Seems like everyone likes lower LPFs here (some even much lower than 40hz). Curious if there are individuals who prefer a higher LPF such as the 100hz as recommended in Crowson manual?
I have mine at 30hz 4th order rolloff and let crowsons handle the ULF duty only. I have my very nearfield sub behind me for everything else and it handles gun shots better than crowsons IMO.
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post #2556 of 2577 Old 02-09-2020, 06:52 PM
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Along with personal preference, the choice for a LPF also greatly depends on the desired level at the lower frequencies. I find that TR >20Hz is pleasant at much lower levels than are preferred in the lower frequencies. So the LPF is just a tool for shaping the response to what you want. In my case, as I increased the overall level toward what I really wanted in the ULF, I found that the >20Hz content became a bottleneck, so to speak, in that it became unpleasant in that area. By using a lower frequency LPF, I was able to tone that area down enough that I could then increase the overall level to where the ULF was where I wanted it. An alternative approach to achieve something similar could be to use a higher frequency or gentler LPF, but then use a LS filter to boost the low end (or a negative HS filter to cut the high end). That's what I mean when I say it's just a tool to shape the response. Many ways to skin that cat, as always, and they are all valid if they result in a desired FR.
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post #2557 of 2577 Old 02-10-2020, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Reading a bit out of the Crowson manual: they caution against too low of a LPF; that it can cause the MAs to miss some of the faster effects making a gunshot feel more like a ‘thud’ than a quick ‘crack’. Since I’ve had my MAs I’ve been using the lowest LPF available on my D501 (40hz).

Seems like everyone likes lower LPFs here (some even much lower than 40hz). Curious if there are individuals who prefer a higher LPF such as the 100hz as recommended in Crowson manual?
I have mine set at 40hz. Any higher and a movie like Aquaman will have chairs vibrating constantly. I have a vnf sub that handles higher.
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post #2558 of 2577 Old 02-11-2020, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Along with personal preference, the choice for a LPF also greatly depends on the desired level at the lower frequencies. I find that TR >20Hz is pleasant at much lower levels than are preferred in the lower frequencies. So the LPF is just a tool for shaping the response to what you want. In my case, as I increased the overall level toward what I really wanted in the ULF, I found that the >20Hz content became a bottleneck, so to speak, in that it became unpleasant in that area. By using a lower frequency LPF, I was able to tone that area down enough that I could then increase the overall level to where the ULF was where I wanted it. An alternative approach to achieve something similar could be to use a higher frequency or gentler LPF, but then use a LS filter to boost the low end (or a negative HS filter to cut the high end). That's what I mean when I say it's just a tool to shape the response. Many ways to skin that cat, as always, and they are all valid if they result in a desired FR.
Do you find you have better headroom with a lower LPF in the very low bass region? IE <20hz has more impact if you apply a 40hz xover vs an 80hz crossover?

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post #2559 of 2577 Old 02-11-2020, 09:32 AM
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Do you find you have better headroom with a lower LPF in the very low bass region? IE <20hz has more impact if you apply a 40hz xover vs an 80hz crossover?
It's not that <20Hz has more impact just because I change the LPF, but the lower LPF allows me to turn the overall level up without that higher stuff becoming uncomfortable. Once the overall level is turned up everything else has more impact.
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post #2560 of 2577 Old 02-11-2020, 10:02 AM
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Finally got my crowson order in . Going from aura pros->buttkickers->crowsons. I hope the hype was worth the price... .
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post #2561 of 2577 Old 02-13-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Reading a bit out of the Crowson manual: they caution against too low of a LPF; that it can cause the MAs to miss some of the faster effects making a gunshot feel more like a ‘thud’ than a quick ‘crack’. Since I’ve had my MAs I’ve been using the lowest LPF available on my D501 (40hz).

Seems like everyone likes lower LPFs here (some even much lower than 40hz). Curious if there are individuals who prefer a higher LPF such as the 100hz as recommended in Crowson manual?
Did you end up using a plywood platform for your MAs or something else? I was reading through some of the mounting suggestions and noticed I have chairs very similar to yours and Sburger.
Not that I can't use plywood, but that process would be very involved when one of the benefits of the crowsons is supposed to be ease of installation.
Don't think I've seen a single setup in this thread that isn't using plywood...

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post #2562 of 2577 Old 02-13-2020, 01:13 PM
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Did you end up using a plywood platform for your MAs or something else? I was reading through some of the mounting suggestions and noticed I have chairs very similar to yours and Sburger.

Not that I can't use plywood, but that process would be very involved when one of the benefits of the crowsons is supposed to be ease of installation.

Don't think I've seen a single setup in this thread that isn't using plywood...


I did not use plywood. I may down the road as time permits but nothing to date. Mine are installed under rear feet of chairs. I’m very happy with them but may look into a platform in the future.
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post #2563 of 2577 Old 02-13-2020, 02:31 PM
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Did you end up using a plywood platform for your MAs or something else? I was reading through some of the mounting suggestions and noticed I have chairs very similar to yours and Sburger.

Not that I can't use plywood, but that process would be very involved when one of the benefits of the crowsons is supposed to be ease of installation.

Don't think I've seen a single setup in this thread that isn't using plywood...


I did not use plywood. I may down the road as time permits but nothing to date. Mine are installed under rear feet of chairs. I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m very happy with them but may look into a platform in the future.
Great. So you just left the rear feet from your chair on and mounted them underneath?

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Great. So you just left the rear feet from your chair on and mounted them underneath?
On my recliner setup, my room is hardwood floor over concrete and I have directly under the couch feet. It honestly is the easiest way and works fine.
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post #2565 of 2577 Old 02-13-2020, 05:15 PM
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Great. So you just left the rear feet from your chair on and mounted them underneath?
I use mine directly under ht chair feet in back. Was thinking about wood but it works great this way and is easier. Look closely in the first pic. IMO no need for wood platform.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post58647594

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The &quot;Official&quot; Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread.

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Great. So you just left the rear feet from your chair on and mounted them underneath?


Sry for late response DArk. Mine are mounted under the metal crossbar across rear of seat. I didn’t want to raise my front row height at all. Therefore I left feet on and placed MAs under the cross bar. It’s a perfect fit for me and works well on all my chairs in front row. Similar setup to the above couple posters in that my chairs feet remain intact but I’m not mounting the MAs under them and therefore it doesn’t raise the elevation of my front row seats.

Let me know if I’m making sense. If not I’ll snap a pic for you.
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post #2567 of 2577 Old 02-19-2020, 11:33 PM
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Sry for late response DArk. Mine are mounted under the metal crossbar across rear of seat. I didn’t want to raise my front row height at all. Therefore I left feet on and placed MAs under the cross bar. It’s a perfect fit for me and works well on all my chairs in front row. Similar setup to the above couple posters in that my chairs feet remain intact but I’m not mounting the MAs under them and therefore it doesn’t raise the elevation of my front row seats.

Let me know if I’m making sense. If not I’ll snap a pic for you.
:O? So you have them directly against the metal? I heard that wasn't good for them, but if it works for you I might give it a shot. A pic would be appreciated.

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post #2568 of 2577 Old 02-20-2020, 03:43 AM
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:O? So you have them directly against the metal? I heard that wasn't good for them, but if it works for you I might give it a shot. A pic would be appreciated.
Don’t forget you will need absorbers or whatever they are called on other spots of your ht chairs. These make a huge difference as the amp and Crowsons don’t need to work nearly as hard. You will also get better and more intense shake and wobble. Without them they will need to be turned way up and also the shake will only come from specific parts of the chair instead of the whole chair.
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post #2569 of 2577 Old 02-20-2020, 06:31 AM
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:O? So you have them directly against the metal? I heard that wasn't good for them, but if it works for you I might give it a shot. A pic would be appreciated.


I’ll grab a pic tonight. I spoke with Randolph Crowson. He told me it may cause them to be slightly less powerful but would not hurt them.

Since I’m never running at full power anyway it works well for me.
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Don’t forget you will need absorbers or whatever they are called on other spots of your ht chairs. These make a huge difference as the amp and Crowsons don’t need to work nearly as hard. You will also get better and more intense shake and wobble. Without them they will need to be turned way up and also the shake will only come from specific parts of the chair instead of the whole chair.


True. And unfortunately the absorbers aren’t cheap.
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True. And unfortunately the absorbers aren’t cheap.
Just order penn elcom 9106 from amazon. They are practically the same thing as the feet that come with the crowsons.

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Just order penn elcom 9106 from amazon. They are practically the same thing as the feet that come with the crowsons.


Yea? Same as the good ones? The ‘Sorbothane centers’?
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Yea? Same as the good ones? The ‘Sorbothane centers’?

No, the penn elcom feet are made of very hard rubber and are poor at decoupling the furniture from the floor. I used these same feet for a while with Crowsons until upgrading everything to the Hudson Hi-Fi soft silicone feet (when adding a BOSS platform), and using the proper isolation feet alone made a significant difference in wobble/TR across the seating.

The Hudson feet are only $25 for a 4-pack, which is obviously much cheaper than the alternatives and really is a steal for their performance.

https://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Hi-Fi-...8-4&th=1&psc=1
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No, the penn elcom feet are made of very hard rubber and are poor at decoupling the furniture from the floor. I used these same feet for a while with Crowsons until upgrading everything to the Hudson Hi-Fi soft silicone feet (when adding a BOSS platform), and using the proper isolation feet alone made a significant difference in wobble/TR across the seating.

The Hudson feet are only $25 for a 4-pack, which is obviously much cheaper than the alternatives and really is a steal for their performance.

https://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Hi-Fi-...8-4&th=1&psc=1
What he said👆
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post #2575 of 2577 Old 02-21-2020, 03:59 AM
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I used the Hudson's for approximately 5 weeks and went back to the Penn's, maybe it's me or my setup but I notice more "activity" and quicker motion with the Penn's especially with short burst sounds such as gun shots and banging noises typically heard in horror movies. The Hudson's seemed too subdue those effects somewhat, it could possibly be the weight of my chair, the chair frame, my size or all of the above.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Yea? Same as the good ones? The ‘Sorbothane centers’?
No, they are the same as the normal crowson feet....but much cheaper if you need more than the ones that came with your actuators. I have not tried sorbothane ones but I use Hudsons and they are similar to sorbothane since its squishy but more squishy. Not to mention cheaper as well.

If you need to bolt to existing frame then you need penn elcom or the sorbothane since they have hole in the middle. The hudsons are flat and stick like glue and works best on platform or large flat surface.
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Last edited by ereed; 02-21-2020 at 06:23 AM.
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post #2577 of 2577 Old 02-21-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
No, the penn elcom feet are made of very hard rubber and are poor at decoupling the furniture from the floor. I used these same feet for a while with Crowsons until upgrading everything to the Hudson Hi-Fi soft silicone feet (when adding a BOSS platform), and using the proper isolation feet alone made a significant difference in wobble/TR across the seating.

The Hudson feet are only $25 for a 4-pack, which is obviously much cheaper than the alternatives and really is a steal for their performance.

https://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Hi-Fi-...8-4&th=1&psc=1
I agree with Sekosche. I went with the Hudsons about a year ago and haven't looked back. They're affordable and do a great job IMO.

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