The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 87 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2581 of 2728 Old 03-06-2020, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I just read your post in the TR thread, and some of your experiences are not typical at all. What are you using for an amp to power them? Are you shaping the signal at all (LPF or other filters)? I have a feeling your issues can be easily resolved with some tweaks. Overheating during Aquaman and two MAs feeling worse than one both suggest something is not normal.
He quoted my earlier response of using two Crowson on a chair with only 1 armrest. If you use two in my situation you get more response from the side that has the armrest. More bulk on that side of the chair so more to elevate. I love the Crowsons and they are the only brand I can use on my chairs. Lack of mounting options underneath. I believe less is better and never had mine shut down. They are quiet and feel very natural. These things really don’t need much power. I use the Crowson amp and have it set to 18 out of 30 I think. Above 20 is way too much and I’m 250lbs mostly muscle

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post #2582 of 2728 Old 03-06-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I just read your post in the TR thread, and some of your experiences are not typical at all. What are you using for an amp to power them? Are you shaping the signal at all (LPF or other filters)? I have a feeling your issues can be easily resolved with some tweaks. Overheating during Aquaman and two MAs feeling worse than one both suggest something is not normal.
Using the Dayton SA1000. ~500W each 8 ohms in parallel.

Not sure what could not be normal with the setup. I posted the pic of where it's placed and pretty much tried everything. It overheated when placed on the floor so the rug choking the ventilation thing is not really valid. However, I was using the LFE input on the SA1000 which apparently bypasses the on board LPF when that happened. It's possible some of the higher frequencies caused that overheating issue. I haven't replayed that scene since enabling the 40Hz LPF on the amp.

With the second MA placed under the right foot near my armrest it did provide more shake but it also produced some really weird resonances with my arm rests that I couldn't handle. The shake was also less uniform across the seat like keeper mentioned in his post. The additional shake >25Hz again was not bad but wasn't nearly as good as the buttkickers. Less than 25hz is very fun though.

As I said in my post I tried multiple chairs (including the one on the end with both armrests attached) and an old wooden chair I had--the feeling during the RP1 bomb scene was worse than the buttkickers in every scenario.

EDIT: Just ran through Aquaman, hot as hell but didn't shut off this time...and that's with it on the rug.

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post #2583 of 2728 Old 03-06-2020, 08:30 PM
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^^^ Okay, yeah, if you were running without a LPF at all I can see RP1 bomb and Aquaman both getting very uncomfortable, they both have some crazy sustained bass up pretty high.

I was just surprised to hear of overheating with relatively HF content, because the one and only time I was ever able to overheat mine was when I was pushing the Lone Survivor chinook scene to ridiculous levels just to see how far I could go with it, but I guess with no LPF and also considering you are pushing a single MA that makes sense. And who knows, maybe you were even clipping the amp.

Anyway, it sounds like you got the stuff pretty much worked out and are happy overall, so welcome to the club! Have you checked out BEQ (link in my sig) yet?

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post #2584 of 2728 Old 03-06-2020, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
^^^ Okay, yeah, if you were running without a LPF at all I can see RP1 bomb and Aquaman both getting very uncomfortable, they both have some crazy sustained bass up pretty high.

I was just surprised to hear of overheating with relatively HF content, because the one and only time I was ever able to overheat mine was when I was pushing the Lone Survivor chinook scene to ridiculous levels just to see how far I could go with it, but I guess with no LPF and also considering you are pushing a single MA that makes sense. And who knows, maybe you were even clipping the amp.

Anyway, it sounds like you got the stuff pretty much worked out and are happy overall, so welcome to the club! Have you checked out BEQ (link in my sig) yet?
Yea I've been following the BEQ stuff. I've been really addicted to the ULF effect the MA adds in the few full range movies I've watched, specifically Fury Road and I'm pretty excited about getting on the BEQ train.
The miniDSP will be my next theater upgrade .
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post #2585 of 2728 Old 03-07-2020, 12:20 PM
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I'm sure this has been covered in some of the previous 80+ pages of amazing content, but what is the frequency response range for the Crowsons? I'm asking, because I want to make sure the upstream equipment can go sufficiently low to take advantage of their sub-20Hz capabilities.

Abstract yourself!
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post #2586 of 2728 Old 03-07-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
I'm sure this has been covered in some of the previous 80+ pages of amazing content, but what is the frequency response range for the Crowsons? I'm asking, because I want to make sure the upstream equipment can go sufficiently low to take advantage of their sub-20Hz capabilities.
The transducers are 1Hz to 600Hz and the 501 Crowson amp is 5Hz to 160Hz
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post #2587 of 2728 Old 03-13-2020, 08:40 AM
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I've been posting a bunch of different curves in the TR thread, but I wanted to share this here since I have settled on using it for my MAs and I'm LOVING the results!

So these curves are all almost identical, I just created two higher-level versions in case people needed more level and didn't have any gain left to use. So the simplest thing is to use the default version (purple) and just increase gain as desired, which should work out to be fine in almost every case. If you have a LPF on your amp that you can't disable just turn it to the highest frequency it allows.

Default (purple):
LPF 10Hz BW 6dB/oct
rolloff compensation filter

~5.5dB higher (red):
LPF 20Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 16Hz 4.2dB Q0.7
rolloff compensation filter

~11dB higher (gold):
LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation filter

I'm comfortable saying at this point that this is the best curve I've ever used, for both movies and music. Give it a try, and don't be worried if with the default curve you need to bump gain significantly over what you're used to, that's normal.

Note: Rolloff compensation filter is a LS filter to counter the low-end rolloff of your amp.
For iNuke/NX amps this is LS 10Hz 4.4dB Q0.5
For BKA amps this is LS 10Hz 10.1dB Q0.7
If you have another amp let me know and I will try to help you find an appropriate rolloff comp filter.

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post #2588 of 2728 Old 03-14-2020, 07:02 PM
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I am considering the Crowsons. I used to watch movies in my living room which was on a suspended wood floor over a basement. It had cathedral ceilings and an open floor plan with only 1 PSA 15V and the resonance through the floor was nice and is certainly missing in my my much smaller dedicated room with 2 JTR 118HTs in the basement on a concrete floor.

I am hoping the Crowsons will be the answer to my prayers with with authentic feedback and not vibrating seats. I would love for it to feel as though I am on a suspended wood floor. Is this a realistic expectation?

I also have some other questions:

1. I have 3 seats in my front row. 1 "U" on one side with 2 "L"s next to it. How many Crowsons would be best?

2. My seats are Palliser Stereo. Do I need an isolator under each foot disc?

3. Should I get the Crowson amp or another. I absolutely want remote turn on.

4. Do I need minidsp? My AVR supports 2 subs and I am currently using both outputs with Audessy. Should I just use a splitter on the closest sub to send a signal to the Crowsons?
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post #2589 of 2728 Old 03-15-2020, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post
I am considering the Crowsons. I used to watch movies in my living room which was on a suspended wood floor over a basement. It had cathedral ceilings and an open floor plan with only 1 PSA 15V and the resonance through the floor was nice and is certainly missing in my my much smaller dedicated room with 2 JTR 118HTs in the basement on a concrete floor.

I am hoping the Crowsons will be the answer to my prayers with with authentic feedback and not vibrating seats. I would love for it to feel as though I am on a suspended wood floor. Is this a realistic expectation?
Don't know about replicating your experience in the other room, but our theater is also in a basement, and the Crowsons are extremely realistic and blend in seamlessly.

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Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post
I also have some other questions:

1. I have 3 seats in my front row. 1 "U" on one side with 2 "L"s next to it. How many Crowsons would be best?
Easiest is one on each chair.

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Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post
2. My seats are Palliser Stereo. Do I need an isolator under each foot disc?
The general recommendation is ISO's on 3 feet and the actuator on the 4th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post
3. Should I get the Crowson amp or another. I absolutely want remote turn on.
It is a nice amp and dead silent (important if the amp is in the theater room.) In addition to the option to use a 9v trigger, it has an "auto on" feature whereby it turns on if it gets signal and then turns off after no signal for a given amount of time.

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4. Do I need minidsp? My AVR supports 2 subs and I am currently using both outputs with Audessy. Should I just use a splitter on the closest sub to send a signal to the Crowsons?
To get the most out of your subs and Crowsons, I would highly recommend considering a Mini-DSP and BEQ.
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post #2590 of 2728 Old 03-15-2020, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I've been posting a bunch of different curves in the TR thread, but I wanted to share this here since I have settled on using it for my MAs and I'm LOVING the results!

So these curves are all almost identical, I just created two higher-level versions in case people needed more level and didn't have any gain left to use. So the simplest thing is to use the default version (purple) and just increase gain as desired, which should work out to be fine in almost every case.

Default (purple):
LPF 10Hz BW 6dB/oct
rolloff compensation filter

~5.5dB higher (red):
LPF 20Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 16Hz 4.2dB Q0.7
rolloff compensation filter

~11dB higher (gold):
LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation filter

I'm comfortable saying at this point that this is the best curve I've ever used, for both movies and music. Give it a try, and don't be worried if with the default curve you need to bump gain significantly over what you're used to, that's normal.

Note: Rolloff compensation filter is a LS filter to counter the low-end rolloff of your amp.
For iNuke/NX amps this is LS 10Hz 4.4dB Q0.5
For BKA amps this is LS 10Hz 10.1dB Q0.7
If you have another amp let me know and I will try to help you find an appropriate rolloff comp filter.
Very cool. What would you recommend for the D-501?
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post #2591 of 2728 Old 03-15-2020, 04:22 PM
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Very cool. What would you recommend for the D-501?
I would recommend you start with just the 10Hz BW 6dB/oct LPF, and increase the level to where you like it. Then, if you're feeling like you want a little more on the low-low end, add a LS 10Hz 2.3dB Q0.5 to flatten out the single digits.
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post #2592 of 2728 Old 03-16-2020, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I've been posting a bunch of different curves in the TR thread, but I wanted to share this here since I have settled on using it for my MAs and I'm LOVING the results!

So these curves are all almost identical, I just created two higher-level versions in case people needed more level and didn't have any gain left to use. So the simplest thing is to use the default version (purple) and just increase gain as desired, which should work out to be fine in almost every case.

Default (purple):
LPF 10Hz BW 6dB/oct
rolloff compensation filter

~5.5dB higher (red):
LPF 20Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 16Hz 4.2dB Q0.7
rolloff compensation filter

~11dB higher (gold):
LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation filter

I'm comfortable saying at this point that this is the best curve I've ever used, for both movies and music. Give it a try, and don't be worried if with the default curve you need to bump gain significantly over what you're used to, that's normal.

Note: Rolloff compensation filter is a LS filter to counter the low-end rolloff of your amp.
For iNuke/NX amps this is LS 10Hz 4.4dB Q0.5
For BKA amps this is LS 10Hz 10.1dB Q0.7
If you have another amp let me know and I will try to help you find an appropriate rolloff comp filter.

125db at 2hz?? Do you get crazy single digit TR without the crowsons engaged?

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post #2593 of 2728 Old 03-16-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
125db at 2hz?? Do you get crazy single digit TR without the crowsons engaged?
Those graphs are from USB streaming through the mDSP, not actual SPL measured with a mic

So the absolute levels don't really mean much, it's the relative levels that matter.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
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post #2594 of 2728 Old 03-18-2020, 02:15 AM
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I've been considering this as I live in an apartment and have a lowly SVS SB12 NSD subwoofer. My concern with this device is that I don't want it to be used all the time. Only on ULF content.

So let's say 20 Hz and below. Does the amp allow me to set a LPF from 20 Hz or 25 Hz max?
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post #2595 of 2728 Old 03-18-2020, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
I've been considering this as I live in an apartment and have a lowly SVS SB12 NSD subwoofer. My concern with this device is that I don't want it to be used all the time. Only on ULF content.

So let's say 20 Hz and below. Does the amp allow me to set a LPF from 20 Hz or 25 Hz max?
If you are asking about the Crowson 501 amp, the lowest you can set it to is 40Hz and that works perfectly fine considering that most movies now a days begin rolling off low frequency content around 30Hz. There is another thread where you can view the graphs. Also, the sensitivity is adjustable and works really well with most of us using this amp have it set to 19 out of 34.

Now if you go a different route with amps and MiniDSP units, then I believe that you can set it much lower, but without BEQ filters as well, I don't think that it would be doing much at all.
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post #2596 of 2728 Old 03-19-2020, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
I've been considering this as I live in an apartment and have a lowly SVS SB12 NSD subwoofer. My concern with this device is that I don't want it to be used all the time. Only on ULF content.

So let's say 20 Hz and below. Does the amp allow me to set a LPF from 20 Hz or 25 Hz max?
If you want to really benefit from ULF below 20Hz, then BEQ (Bass EQ) is an absolute must (link in my sig)
...and with a miniDSP 2x4HD ($200) you can easily put a crossover setting on the output channel that feeds your Crowson D-501 amp.

I have 4 Crowson motion actuators and the Crowson D-501 amp, but didn't like the 40Hz lower limit for crossover setting.
No one needs to feel low male voices rumbling in their butt (like James Earl Jones/Darth Vader) LOL!

Here's a shot of my miniDSP Channel 4 output with crossover set at 30Hz (you can easily make it 20Hz if you prefer)
(as detailed in the miniDSP setup guide in the BEQ thread)




The Crowsons really shine below 20Hz where most subs roll off,
unfortunately most movies lately rarely dip below those levels without using BEQ.
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post #2597 of 2728 Old 03-19-2020, 07:24 PM
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If you want to really benefit from ULF below 20Hz, then BEQ (Bass EQ) is an absolute must (link in my sig)
...and with a miniDSP 2x4HD ($200) you can easily put a crossover setting on the output channel that feeds your Crowson D-501 amp.

I have 4 Crowson motion actuators and the Crowson D-501 amp, but didn't like the 40Hz lower limit for crossover setting.
No one needs to feel low male voices rumbling in their butt (like James Earl Jones/Darth Vader) LOL!

Here's a shot of my miniDSP Channel 4 output with crossover set at 30Hz (you can easily make it 20Hz if you prefer)
(as detailed in the miniDSP setup guide in the BEQ thread)




The Crowsons really shine below 20Hz where most subs roll off,
unfortunately most movies lately rarely dip below those levels without using BEQ.
Interesting. I have the D-501 set at 40, and do BEQ, but aren't applying any 30Hz output filters to the crowson. I hadn't noticed any ill effects though and wasn't sure what a good test would be. So I take it the Darth Vader speaking is a good test to see if it is annoying at 40Hz?
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post #2598 of 2728 Old 03-20-2020, 07:28 AM
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^^^ You guys should try the 10Hz 6dB/oct LPF instead. It might sound crazy, but it creates a pretty much perfect tilt to the response IMO. If you're concerned about the higher stuff, 80Hz is 3 octaves higher than 10Hz, so at 6dB/oct 80Hz would be 18dB lower than 10Hz. Deep voices are not an issue with this curve, but it makes everything else much better!

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post #2599 of 2728 Old 03-20-2020, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
^^^ You guys should try the 10Hz 6dB/oct LPF instead. It might sound crazy, but it creates a pretty much perfect tilt to the response IMO. If you're concerned about the higher stuff, 80Hz is 3 octaves higher than 10Hz, so at 6dB/oct 80Hz would be 18dB lower than 10Hz. Deep voices are not an issue with this curve, but it makes everything else much better!
Wouldn't that cause below 20hz to have less output overall? Or is it just more of a blending type thing? Could you show the diff with 10hz 6db BW vs 30hz 24b BW on graph as comparison?

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post #2600 of 2728 Old 03-20-2020, 07:26 PM
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Wouldn't that cause below 20hz to have less output overall? Or is it just more of a blending type thing? Could you show the diff with 10hz 6db BW vs 30hz 24b BW on graph as comparison?
No, it creates a pretty much perfect tilt to the response that creates just a superb balance throughout, way beyond anything else I've ever tried. And I ran all kinds of 24dB/oct LPFs similar to yours in the past, 40Hz, 30Hz, 20Hz, 18Hz, you name it.

Really, just trust me enough to at least give it a try. Forget whatever you expect it to be like and just go in with an open mind, and you won't be disappointed!

Here's a comparison of the two curves. Note, this is with a +5dB gain on the 6dB/oct curve. Adjust gain as necessary to find where you like it best.


Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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Last edited by aron7awol; 03-20-2020 at 07:40 PM.
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post #2601 of 2728 Old 03-20-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
No, it creates a pretty much perfect tilt to the response that creates just a superb balance throughout, way beyond anything else I've ever tried. And I ran all kinds of 24dB/oct LPFs similar to yours in the past, 40Hz, 30Hz, 20Hz, 18Hz, you name it.

Really, just trust me enough to at least give it a try. Forget whatever you expect it to be like and just go in with an open mind, and you won't be disappointed!

Here's a comparison of the two curves. Note, this is with a +5dB gain on the 6dB/oct curve. Adjust gain as necessary to find where you like it best.

Thanks for doing the graph. This is not something you can really see in the minidsp plugin since it limits to 20hz view. Of course I will try it...always try anything once. Just looking at the graph alone you posted I think I'm already gonna like it.
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post #2602 of 2728 Old 03-27-2020, 07:20 PM
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Lightbulb Please help to verify the 10Hz settings

@aron7awol
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post59365732

Hope I followed your instructions correctly.

Please help me to verify my setting for the 10hz LPF and 10Hz Low_Self.

I am using Crowson D-501 Tactile Motion Amplifier (the cross over is set to the lowest knob setting 40HZ) and volume level @20 and of course never watch movies without BEQ.

thank you so much.






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Originally Posted by avtvhdbass View Post
@aron7awol
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post59365732

Hope I followed your instructions correctly.

Please help me to verify my setting for the 10hz LPF and 10Hz Low_Self.

I am using Crowson D-501 Tactile Motion Amplifier (the cross over is set to the lowest knob setting 40HZ) and volume level @20 and of course never watch movies without BEQ.

thank you so much.






That looks correct!
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Originally Posted by avtvhdbass View Post
I am using Crowson D-501 Tactile Motion Amplifier (the cross over is set to the lowest knob setting 40HZ) and volume level @20 and of course never watch movies without BEQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
That looks correct!
It looks correct, other than you should set the crossover on the D-501 as high as possible (to essentially bypass it), not at low as possible. The 10Hz LPF you entered in the mDSP is intended to replace it.
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Thanks @ereed and @aron7awol
I will change the cross over knob on the crowsons to max.

Just wanted to let you know, my wife watched Hunter Killer, she was impressed with the new Crowson settings.
Thanks again for all the efforts @aron7awol , I know you spend incredible amount of time researching this things which is beyond me.
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Question Crowson D-501 Phase

While changing the crossover knob to max. I noticed that phase was at 180deg, not sure if this matters. It's been a while since looked at the back of the amp. Should I leave this at 180?.

All my subs are set to 0deg phase, the distance setting for Crowson in AVR Sub channel 2 is 0.5", thank you.

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Last edited by avtvhdbass; 03-28-2020 at 08:03 PM. Reason: added more details
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post #2607 of 2728 Old 03-29-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by avtvhdbass View Post
While changing the crossover knob to max. I noticed that phase was at 180deg, not sure if this matters. It's been a while since looked at the back of the amp. Should I leave this at 180?.

All my subs are set to 0deg phase, the distance setting for Crowson in AVR Sub channel 2 is 0.5", thank you.
Try it both ways and see if you can notice a difference, and if so, which way you prefer. It typically doesn't really make a big difference, other than if you have a suspended floor and/or other TR devices to interact with. Those sort of interactions is where phase will really make a major difference.

Also, don't be surprised or concerned if you end up having/wanting to turn the level up on this new curve. You mentioned you were at level 20 in a recent post, but I'm not sure if that's about where you used to run it or if that's higher?

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Try it both ways and see if you can notice a difference, and if so, which way you prefer. It typically doesn't really make a big difference, other than if you have a suspended floor and/or other TR devices to interact with. Those sort of interactions is where phase will really make a major difference.

Also, don't be surprised or concerned if you end up having/wanting to turn the level up on this new curve. You mentioned you were at level 20 in a recent post, but I'm not sure if that's about where you used to run it or if that's higher?
I am on concrete floor. I will try the phase setting later. You are absolutely correct!!!!. I watched fast and furious (1) I didn't feel anything in the Crowsons!!. I have the AVR SUB Level set to -8 and Inside Minidsp Crowson Level is at 0. The D501 Amp Volume was at 20.

I am going watch fast and furious (2) soon, I will increase the volume knob on D501 and see how far I need to go up, thank you sir.

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@aron7awol
Increased volume on D-501 to 23 (Previously was at 20). Holy molly, fast and furious (2) felt too too... good.
There is a scene when the cars gather for race and a car has smoke shoot out from the side of car (nitrous Purge kit), oh man you can feel it.

I tried playing at volume 24 ended up with clanking sound in actuators for some specific scenes, MV was at -15DB, Sub Channel Level = -8db.

I can tell one thing for sure the impact is too good and far better than what I had before LPF @ 30HZ D-501 Vol @20. Quality control test passed
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The negative delay used on the minidsp was to address tactile feel before or after the audible bass?

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