For a $2000 budget - what is the best sub out there? Not on SPL but on Fidelity, Tight & Clean bass. - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

I'd simply not want to see a "made in china" tag - which immediately implies "cost savings, mass produced and that too in a country which is a competitor for resources and power and was at one point not long ago in our history "the enemy" ...

Really? What war are you still fighting? frown.gif
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post #32 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post


I'd simply not want to see a "made in china" tag - which immediately implies "cost savings, mass produced and that too in a country which is a competitor for resources and power and was at one point not long ago in our history "the enemy" ...

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are not duals but they are within my price range and satisfy most other criteria.

I heard the ADAM floorstanders and they were terrific, too bad their made in Germany.
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post #33 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I heard the ADAM floorstanders and they were terrific, too bad their made in Germany.

I gez you forgot to add an emoticon for sarcasm (if there is one)?

any of the good stuff from USA/Canada/Europe/Aus/NZ/Japan is fine... even if the world's best speaker... is made in China - I'll take the next best made in one of these places...

btw: have u heard the ADAM subs? any forum members have them?
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post #34 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post

I heard the ADAM floorstanders and they were terrific, too bad their made in Germany.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

I gez you forgot to add an emoticon for sarcasm (if there is one)?
I think the point he was making is that you are the one talking about War so would presumably not want to buy anything from a country that massacred 6m+ Jews and took on the rest of the world while doing it?
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post #35 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 12:17 PM
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Speaker made in India is the future for you. Find some cabinet maker and have them custom built and finish for you at India prices is way cheaper that importing whole speaker.
http://meniscusaudio.com/kits-c-133.html
There are some world class speaker kit there.
Jbl w15gti is consider a top tier sound quality sub and and crown amps. Jbl should be accessible in India. I have my sub cab custom build and I haven't seen a better performance and visually looking sub in the 3 grand retail class which is spend way less.
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post #36 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 12:21 PM
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Rhythmic subs are very well known here and they are well deserving should also be look at if I were you. They also sell kits too.
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post #37 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 02:55 PM
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Hi,

I understand & appreciate the challenges of finding numerous options in India as well as the insane cost mark ups on imported products but you may want to also consider warranty, repair & replacement aspects if you get something specially imported from faraway lands just because it has a "Made in XXXX" label. At least with SVS having authorised dealers there, you can be assured of parts, servicing, warranty etc - just something to consider!

As for made in China - well the fact is it seems they own & make everything whether one likes it or not!

Bazzy!
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post #38 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 03:25 PM
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I know some Genelec subwoofer used Peerless drivers, Right ? If I am not mistaken, Some (all ?) Peerless are now made in China.
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post #39 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

after going through some reviews...getting maturer...
I'll drop the storied past/legend requirement.. even the KK DXDs it seems are made in china...

I am looking for performance and value...at the same time I'm not a fan boy or groupie of some brand (even if its BMW, B&W or Genelec)

I simply do not want a product made in China.. after coming this far from my original budget...to some this may have sounded prejudiced if read in snippets...
keep in mind I started at $2500 for the whole 5.1ch + receiver and was looking at B&W 600 series... but after hearing the 800Diamonds... the 600 was a non-event... the Genelec 8260 was what brought me to the brand...the Genelec 8260 performance was quite comparable to the 800Diamonds at 1/3 the price...
add in "the halo effect and reputation" and I'm now seriously considering their lower line of products...

but in short... at the price band I'm willing to spend - I'd simply not want to see a "made in china" tag - which immediately implies "cost savings, mass produced and that too in a country which is a competitor for resources and power and was at one point not long ago in our history "the enemy" ...
again if I were looking in the < $1000 for the whole enchilada.. I could expect no other choice

and now am at $6500 for just the 5.1 speakers and this is before shipping, taxes and customs duties - my final cost will be around $10,000.

now taking the above into account - could you recommend speakers/subwoofers that have true fidelity...

basically if a musician were to play whatever the instrument and record it and play it back on the speaker - it should be indistinguishable...in a blind test... or by actual sensitive measurements both in frequency and time... i know this is the ideal and doesn't actually exist - but whatever comes the closest in my budget is what I'm looking for the learned and experienced and passionate members of these forums to help me with..

that is what I'm looking for...fidelity - the "brand/history" etc is an offshoot of its consistent performance and the experts and market recognizing the same over time...

my new signature will be...
"give me fidelity or give me death".

i'm thinking of the following requirements to obtain the best fidelity and vibration free bass:

1. Made in NA/EU - this is a must have
2. Sealed (went throught sealed vs ported debate and it seems Sealed is better for fidelity...except for the Genelec's LSE)
3. 8" or 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA inputs
5. Low pass filter and other controls
6. LFE+Sum-out for daisy chaining
7. Auto-power on signal (nice to have feature), with volume remote etc

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are not duals but they are within my price range and satisfy most other criteria.

It seems the Velodynes, Paradigms, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, Rhythmik and JL Audio are made in NA - am I right?

any other brands?

and heaven forbid - should nothing exist - I may need the help of the esteemed members of the forum to help me on a DIY.

Your exact definition of made in NA/EU, can make this requirement a bit tricky. Of those above (I could be mistaken) I believe only Power Sound's Triax and our SubMersive have all parts, including the electronics and drive units produced here NA without the complete components produced somewhere in Asia. Many more have final assembly or some percentage of the product manufactured in NA/EU.

Based on what you've described, one you might want to also consider is the ML Descent. It is basically the predecessor to the Sub 1/2 from Paradigm, and gives you the control and input flexibility without the larger enclosures you will find with many of the US made products. If you didn't mind the larger size, do consider that you can always find a Velodyne SMS-1 to place in front of whatever subwoofer you select. An Antimode Dual Core 2.0 might also be worth considering. Given the size of the space you mention, I would recommend you consider some subwoofers utilizing drivers larger than 8-10". Given your description in the first post, I don't see why you *need* a variable low pass filter nor summing capability in the subwoofer.

Good luck in your search.

Mark Seaton
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post #40 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Dear Mark,
Thank you so much for the detailed response and suggestions. Its quite self-less of you to recommend products by other makers.
I've heard only the best things about the Submersible - the thing is its 15" and may actually defeat the HT or my marriage.
My strategy would be to go under the radar by getting an 8" - dual/triple sub (rather than a single 10", 12" or 15" which may never see the light of day in my case) and pull a fast one by adding another later.
Devious.. yes... a man's gotta do what he's gotta do.
Its always the sub that draws the boys in but drives the women & neighbors nuts...
That's why I'm focusing on musicality/fidelity than loudness/SPL.

ML Descent i (the successor to Descent) and ML Depth i - triple driver are similar to the Vandersteen 2Wq (the issue with 2Wq is it takes speaker and not line level input)
The only problem with Depth i - seems to be no balanced XLR input but the Descent i offers it.
I don't know what a cost savings that would've resulted - but that prevents me from deciding on it.
btw: Are the Martin Logans/Paradigms made in US/Canada?

I hope these would pair well with the Genelec 8040 for music - all connected directly to a Home-theater PC. Other than whatever bass-mgmt found on the sound card - I won't be able to add any pre-amps or other dedicated bass management systems.
The sum-out feature will be quite nice to have to add another sub later - if the sound-card is 5.1/7.1 and not 5.2/7.2.

I hope you will one day offer an 8" - dual/triple configuration with the above features and I'd be the first to get in line.
May be you will consider after this...

Thanks again
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post #41 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

Dear Mark,
Thank you so much for the detailed response and suggestions. Its quite self-less of you to recommend products by other makers.
I've heard only the best things about the Submersible - the thing is its 15" and may actually defeat the HT or my marriage.
My strategy would be to go under the radar by getting an 8" - dual/triple sub (rather than a single 10", 12" or 15" which may never see the light of day in my case) and pull a fast one by adding another later.
Devious.. yes... a man's gotta do what he's gotta do.
Its always the sub that draws the boys in but drives the women & neighbors nuts...
That's why I'm focusing on musicality/fidelity than loudness/SPL.

I hope you will one day offer an 8" - dual/triple configuration with the above features and I'd be the first to get in line.
May be you will consider after this...

Thanks again
Just to check, are you aware that any AVR will/should EQ to Reference levels, which means that it will (attempt to) balance the speakers and sub so they put out Reference level at the listening position. This means that you could have one 8" sealed sub or a wall of 16 24" subs in an infinite baffle - at Reference they will both (try to) be putting out the same volume.

The point is that the multi-driver that moves more air is more capable and therefore can actually produce Reference level sound at the lower frequencies - an 8" driver will struggle because it physically cannot move that much air.

Do not fall into the trap of assuming that just because a 15" driver is twice the diameter of an 8" driver, the 15" will always be playing twice as loud or be 'slow' because it is bigger - that is not the case.
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post #42 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

It seems the Velodynes, Paradigms, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, Rhythmik and JL Audio are made in NA - am I right?
I think the newer Velodynes might be from China. Rythmik is made in China.

Good luck in your quest.
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post #43 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

My strategy would be to go under the radar by getting an 8" - dual/triple sub (rather than a single 10", 12" or 15" which may never see the light of day in my case) and pull a fast one by adding another later. . . .

ML Descent i (the successor to Descent) and ML Depth i - triple driver are similar to the Vandersteen 2Wq (the issue with 2Wq is it takes speaker and not line level input)

The ML Decent is a triple 10" driver (not 8") and it is no smaller than the largest 12" subs that the ID manufacturers make. In fact the SVS PB13-Ultra appears to only be deeper, not significantly wider or taller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

That's why I'm focusing on musicality/fidelity than loudness/SPL.

Of course you have no way to know which of the subs you are considering have better music fidelity. Individual audio magazine reviews aren't that helpful since they are not comparing the subs against each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

I hope these would pair well with the Genelec 8040 for music - all connected directly to a Home-theater PC. Other than whatever bass-mgmt found on the sound card - I won't be able to add any pre-amps or other dedicated bass management systems.
The sum-out feature will be quite nice to have to add another sub later - if the sound-card is 5.1/7.1 and not 5.2/7.2.

You really need to look into processors with bass management and room correction now that you have upped your overall budget substantially.

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post #44 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 10:29 AM
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How about any dealers for Kreisel subs? Expensive, but I thought I heard there were dealers there.
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post #45 of 126 Old 08-13-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@Reefdvr - I've heard only good things about the Kreisel - but unfortunately its made in china - therefore its out... it may still be the best sub in its class - but I can't buy it out of my own silly notions and principles...
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post #46 of 126 Old 08-14-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok so its
Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810

WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket:
Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060
in which case do other competitors like PMC and ATC enter the picture?
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post #47 of 126 Old 08-14-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

ok so its
Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810

WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket:
Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060
in which case do other competitors like PMC and ATC enter the picture?

Looks like you've decided to up the budget considerably - bearing in mind that you have to factor in freight charges and possible taxes/duties for India.

So from $900-1200, you went up to $2000 and now (with some of the names you mentioned above) it's going to be $3000 or even beyond.
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post #48 of 126 Old 08-14-2013, 09:42 AM
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Out of your new choices, I would imagine the Seaton would be the best option.
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post #49 of 126 Old 08-14-2013, 11:38 AM
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Seaton is the top of the pyramid of subs. Good choice but your budget is up considerly after shipping but still a bestbuy.
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post #50 of 126 Old 08-15-2013, 07:49 PM
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Maybe I'm in a cynical mood tonight, but these types of threads are a big reason why I don't post as often as I once did.

I quit reading after the first page but there were some solid recommendations there. It sounds like the OP needs to keep reading a bit longer.
I agree with the guy who said anyone in the know wouldn't be impressed with a Genelec 10" sub for 2200$ , and that is an understatement.

Go ahead and keep that Genelec mystique, and tell your friends you have the best subwoofer money can buy. They probably won't know that you are absurdly incorrect, but the first time you visit a home with an SVS or Rythmik or Seaton....well you'll figure it out sure enough for yourself.

Good luck in your search OP, but before you jump on anything stick around and keep reading. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys on here and the ones who leave here purchasing the best subs for the money are the ones who do the research, heed solid advice, and mix in a bit of common sense.
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post #51 of 126 Old 08-15-2013, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The Seaton - which seems to be the clear favorite... presently offers 3 models - 2 of which don't seem to have 220V option and am not sure what the difference between them is
and the 3rd "original with 220v option" says "pre-owned" amplifiers...and "no-longer" available for ordering...

therefore I'm not sure I understand people's impatience with my still looking around...

I am doing my research because I did not fall for the Genelec dealers' claims - hence my detailed and painstaking research in multiple forums..
I will heed the advice... especially the unbiased, honest ones...
I realize there are no absolute right answers and the correct answer depends on who is asking and who you ask etc..
its just that some of the advice is contradictory and subjective or from fans of the brand... (and sometimes its hard to figure out who stands where and may be all of us have elements of each)...

I'm not at all sold on the Genelec sub - I was just paraphrasing the dealer's claim and a few others here even agreed

Now to a possible nominee for a candidate...
How is the quality, fidelity of Sunfire TS-EQ10 - ? I have heard it being mentioned in this forum a few times seems to offer quite a lot of features for the price...
but I'm guessin its made in China...to have all these features and arrive at this price...so it may not be a candidate after all...


If all else fails... I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which it seems surprising that there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer.

What are the features/parameters that I should expect in my sub - if I enter the DIY realm?

I'm thinking the following:
Must have:
1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass.
2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex.
3. Low pass filter for drive protection
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA - gold plated inputs
5. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24"
6. Level control
7. Clipping and Power surge protection
8. Auto-power on signal
9. No compromise on finish and looks etc...

Nice to haves:
1. Should I consider adding dual passive radiators as well? a quad driver active/passive design?
2. Cross-over adjustment?
3. Is it advisable to use Hard-wood for cabinet instead of MDF? (other than cost - are there any other advantages to MDF - how about an all aluminum cabinet?)
4. Liquid cooled amplifier - like for a PC?
5. Sumout XLR, RCA outputs for daisy chaining


I will probably have to take the DIY ideas/discussions onto a different thread or should I continue to keep this thread active...

because I intend to continue my search for existing products (while exploring the feasibility of DIY with all the must have features...)
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Stay away from the Sunfire. It's a sub made when you need a small unit. It won't give you great bass. Can't you just get a converter for a sub like the Seaton? I don't know how much converters cost though. DIY is the way to go, you can get some massive bass for a lot less than $2k. I would go DIY if you have the resources for it.
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post #53 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass.
2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex.

If you are buying a $2000+ sub, and the company can't design a "vibration/rattle free" model with only one driver, and they can't optimize the tuning of a ported sub, you don't want to buy any subs from them. There are good single driver ported subs that don't have these problems and have excellent SQ, and one that is available to you: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb13

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post #54 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Go ahead and keep that Genelec mystique, and tell your friends you have the best subwoofer money can buy. They probably won't know that you are absurdly incorrect, but the first time you visit a home with an SVS or Rythmik or Seaton....well you'll figure it out sure enough for yourself.

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post #55 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If you are buying a $2000+ sub, and the company can't design a "vibration/rattle free" model with only one driver, and they can't optimize the tuning of a ported sub, you don't want to buy any subs from them. There are good single driver ported subs that don't have these problems and have excellent SQ, and one that is available to you: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb13

we have been dow this road already Cel. For some reason the op does not want a sub built in China...even tho SVS is very high quality. At this point I think everybody here is wasting thier time. Its apparent the op has a nose in the air approach and Genelec is the best thing since sliced bread in his mind. I think he was expecting everybody to kneel down and praise Genelec products, but he quickly found out otherwise and abandoned the thread.
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post #56 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 07:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

we have been dow this road already Cel. For some reason the op does not want a sub built in China...
Subs assembled in the US have parts of Asian origin. Drivers assembled in the US have parts of Asian origin. My Nissan, assembled in Tennessee, has parts of Asian origin. If you intend to truly avoid buying Asian products that pretty much rules out anything that comes from a factory, including the OPs computer that he posted with.
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post #57 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 07:46 AM
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Including your famous iPods and iPhones......I guess Steve Jobs realized the importance of offshore product assmbly line ...... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #58 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 07:50 AM
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My Cambridge Audio Azur 751R is assmbled in China.......................I am yet to find an avr to best this beast. Krell, Mark Levinson, Classe may be better but I haven't auditioned them. But if they are any better; be ready for one of them to claim your limbs to acquire it.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #59 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

we have been dow this road already Cel. For some reason the op does not want a sub built in China...even tho SVS is very high quality. At this point I think everybody here is wasting thier time. Its apparent the op has a nose in the air approach and Genelec is the best thing since sliced bread in his mind. I think he was expecting everybody to kneel down and praise Genelec products, but he quickly found out otherwise and abandoned the thread.

No. He hasn't abandoned the thread. I was replying to him smile.gif

But it is unfortunate. Either PB13-Ultra or SB13-Ultra will give him incredible sound for the money. And since he wasn't buying a processor or receiver, but intent on using a computer sound card only to save money (in his speaker forum thread), his priorities have gone in strange directions. Not about the best sound he can get for his money.

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post #60 of 126 Old 08-16-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ok i see what you all are saying that most everything has something chinese made in it - but if its mostly made in the US/Canada/EU/Aus/NZ/Japan that's all I care about....
I can't see why everyone gets all wound-up about the fact that I don't want a "chinese made" product even if its the best in the price range... in fact i would've thought it would've been the other way round... but not so...
its good that you are all open minded and not jingoistic and very much subscribe to the globalization/walmartization of the economy...in fact if you were all like "be american, buy american" even if its crap - it would've freaked me out...(anyone ever own old unreliable chevys and pontiacs before experiencing the reliability and quality of hondas and toyotas? i'd gladly buy a Lenovo, made in China (but I refuse to buy an IBM or Apple laptop made in China - it just doesn't sit right)
I agree with the concept of "may the best among us win", "resource optimization", "the right tool, right man, right location for the right job" but in practice that is not what is happening...
the reality is the system is not just imperfect - its completely flawed and will remain so for a very long time... it ensures the widening of the rich-poor divide, middle-class squeeze, privatization of profits and socialization of losses and social costs, meaningless growth at all costs economics and politics...

If you haven't already seen or felt its true effects (be it as a beneficiary, victim or as a sympathizer) - you must indeed be living in your own bubble and that shall burst in the years to come...
I've rambled on enough - about economics, politics and geo-politicss and that can fire-up a lot of passions and rants.. so lets get to the OP (original point)
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

the op has a nose in the air approach and Genelec is the best thing since sliced bread in his mind. I think he was expecting everybody to kneel down and praise Genelec products, but he quickly found out otherwise and abandoned the thread.

Its funny how you attribute intentions and attitudes without reading what I'm posting or that I'm posting at all - therefore it would not be sensible for me take any offense to this particular message - as I'm very thankful for everyone who posts in reply to this thread...

again...
I'm certainly NOT looking for confirmations of the Genelec's purported superiority - in fact quite the opposite I am looking for viable alternates of which I assume there must be quite a few...

I'm certain that among the Active speakers suitable (size, performance, looks) for use as a home-theater - Genelec G 4 and G 3 are the speakers for me... (the ADAM and Focal came very close) but the Genelec won out because of the consistent look and performance with their higher line products and surprisingly enough I've grown to like their looks... I started out thinking they were rank ugly... then they started looking plain and now they've started looking downright cute - like a bunny rabbit... it just grew on me...(and I'm quite used to the same experience when it comes to women...)

Now the clear favorite Seaton SubM doesn't have anything 220V that I can order (and the 110V to 220V transformers are noisy and unsafe)...
The Sunfire TS-EQ10 - not sure about its performance or SQ but it does offer all/most of the features I want
but its off the list because its "made in china"...
the Power Sound Audio (XS30 is kina big and Triax kina expensive) and Paradigm sub 1 too expensive and JL Audio Fathoms are not duals...

the Martin Logan Depth i and Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub are still in the picture...

but it still feels like something's amiss in all of this and not quite what I want - especially in a category that is particularly popular as a DIY.
I'll keep this thread going to hear any other suggestions on "dual/sealed" subs to consider in the below $2200 range...
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