Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 317 Old 04-11-2015, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Davey, sorry if this was covered, have you tried exporting REW sweep to the Mini and let it set it up, then adjust the biquad settings from there if you don't like what you hear.


its always better to cut than add boost at a certain fq, that said I have a hump a 40hz, and regardless of what I cut or add it will remain until I add another sub, which is coming soon
I use XTZ room analyzer and it does not allow direct import, but it gives you your room mode correction values to input manually. I've done that and reduced a peak pre Audyssey.

I changed location of one sub again and I think I have it better now.

Primarily now I'm trying to find someone who is familiar wit this product and wiling to give me values to try and increase the mid bass punch.

I'm realy green, and don't even know what frequencies mid bass is, I just know I like it. I'd like to 'feel' the gun shots and stuff more.

Can someone give me a suggestion of:
Filter Type
Q value
+\- DB value
Frequency(s)
That I could input in miniDsp to see if it gives more mid Bass?
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post #242 of 317 Old 04-12-2015, 04:12 AM
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The lower the value of "Q" the tighter the bass, mid bass 50hz to 150hx approx. If your getting a flat response increase across the board slowly, too much boost can cause distortion


for $10 you can get the 2.1 plugin on the minidsp site, it will allow you export the REW to the plugin, it makes it extremely easy.
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post #243 of 317 Old 04-12-2015, 09:02 AM
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If I make changes to plug in screen (add some filters) and then hook up minidsp to computer and hit sync - are said changes supposed to go on it right then?

Because it's not on mine. I've ran room graphs before and after making lots of changes to dsP and the graphs are identical.

I also noticed anytime I do hit green sync button it disappears. The only way to get it back is to unplug and plug the usb.

Currently I have minidsp hooked up to subs properly. I know this because I can adjust gains while its in sync. I have it being powered with a usb to standard wall plug in dongle.

When I want to hook it to computer, I simply unplug the usb on minidsp and plug in another one that has a long enough cord to reach to my laptop.
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post #244 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 03:19 AM
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If the sync button is gone, then your sync'd, try the link below, this is the short and quick way to set up. Jerry Austin did a great write up on REW look into that. Im far from an expert on REW or the miniDSP, but Ive been where you are, I found spending time and going thru the motions was helpful.






http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...q-step-by-step
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post #245 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post


I use XTZ room analyzer and it found no room modes. It did show a rather wide peak at about 40hz, so I added two PEQ's to the MiniDsp to tame that.

This graph PINK LINE is with Q Control on my actual subs set to max Q0.7
BLUE LINE is with Q Control set to Q0.3
I'm assuming Q0.3/blue line is better here? Since the front part of line is closer to back.

I'm at a total loss though. Gunshots in movies sound weak and it just seems like it lacks oomph.

If you have advice on a filter to add - I would be very grateful if you shared it. I'm clueless on this stuff so I'd need to know Filter type, Q factor, db's, and Frequency.

Please - any suggestion is welcome.
Davey,

You've got a ~12-13db dip from ~65-150hz, this is where the "meat" of mid-bass resides. This suckout could very well be a null and no amount of EQ will help, therefore you need to try to flatten that section with sub/speaker/MLP placement, time/phase alignment before you're going to have good mid-bass response.

What are your mains? Have you tried measuring away from the MLP (Main Listening Position), and if so, do you get a significantly different response?

Also, the punch-in-the-chest mid-bass you're looking for doesn't really become noticeable until pretty high SPL levels. What MV (Master Volume) level are you listening at? I only ask because your graph was taken at a very low SPL.
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post #246 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Davey,

You've got a ~12-13db dip from ~65-150hz, this is where the "meat" of mid-bass resides. This suckout could very well be a null and no amount of EQ will help, therefore you need to try to flatten that section with sub/speaker/MLP placement, time/phase alignment before you're going to have good mid-bass response.

What are your mains? Have you tried measuring away from the MLP (Main Listening Position), and if so, do you get a significantly different response?

Also, the punch-in-the-chest mid-bass you're looking for doesn't really become noticeable until pretty high SPL levels. What MV (Master Volume) level are you listening at? I only ask because your graph was taken at a very low SPL.

My system is 5.2.2 front heights. All HSU bookshelves and center, HSU VTF3 MK5's for the subs.
The 'suckout' seems to be everywhere. I've made radical changes to the subplacement and measured in other places.


Can someone with minidsp confirms this works:


1. Your minidsp is NOT hooked up to your computer
2. You make some changes on plugin application on your computer
3. You THEN unplug minidsp from your system and plug it into computer
4. You hit 'sync' button - and voila all changes are on there.


Is that how it works? Because that's what I'm doing. And no changes are apparently being stored, because before and after graphs are identical.


I'm starting to wonder if you have to hook up minidsp to computer and hit sync - and then and only then make changes - then go hook it up to system. I.e. you have to make changes while it's hooked up and synced or they don't stick?


If anyone has done it the numbered way above, let me know. Then I will know I just have faulty minidsp.
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post #247 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
My system is 5.2.2 front heights. All HSU bookshelves and center, HSU VTF3 MK5's for the subs.
The 'suckout' seems to be everywhere. I've made radical changes to the subplacement and measured in other places.
Hmmm....what mic are you using?

If the suckout is everywhere, you've either got a very unique room or there is a problem with your speakers or your measuring equipment. I would suspect the measuring equipment/setup.

You could try some nearfield measurements of your speakers just to rule out any issues with the speakers themselves.


Quote:
Can someone with minidsp confirms this works:


1. Your minidsp is NOT hooked up to your computer
2. You make some changes on plugin application on your computer
3. You THEN unplug minidsp from your system and plug it into computer
4. You hit 'sync' button - and voila all changes are on there.


Is that how it works? Because that's what I'm doing. And no changes are apparently being stored, because before and after graphs are identical.


I'm starting to wonder if you have to hook up minidsp to computer and hit sync - and then and only then make changes - then go hook it up to system. I.e. you have to make changes while it's hooked up and synced or they don't stick?


If anyone has done it the numbered way above, let me know. Then I will know I just have faulty minidsp.
Can't help you there, I've never made any changes "offline".
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post #248 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hmmm....what mic are you using?

If the suckout is everywhere, you've either got a very unique room or there is a problem with your speakers or your measuring equipment. I would suspect the measuring equipment/setup.

You could try some nearfield measurements of your speakers just to rule out any issues with the speakers themselves.




Can't help you there, I've never made any changes "offline".
But have you made changes offline on plugin screen, then hooked up and hit sync?
Maybe that's the problem, maybe changes only stick if you make them while its synced.
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post #249 of 317 Old 04-13-2015, 04:05 PM
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No, as I said I have never worked "offline" with the MiniDSP...I have always been "synched" when making changes.
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post #250 of 317 Old 04-19-2015, 07:57 AM
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I'm getting closer to a good even output! The graph below shows a dip around 130hz. I was able to bump it 8hz in minidsp so it looks flatter now.

Ive read some posts that seem to frown on adding DBs with minidsp, but it worked well for me.

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post #251 of 317 Old 04-20-2015, 08:04 AM
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Well, if you boosted it and it worked, then it is not a true null. However, you have probably cut into your headroom. Have you noticed any loss of headroom since??
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post #252 of 317 Old 04-26-2015, 02:27 PM
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I've been searching all over the Internet for tips on using minidsp. I've seen a few posts and even pictures showing a low pass and high pass filter added.

I'm having a hard time grasping how they work and exactly what they do. I've seen the low pass filter put at 80hz with a 24db butter worth. I'm guessing that is making it so the sub does not output anything over 80hz. Is this a good thing to do? Or should I not worry about them other than making sure they are fully bypassed?
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post #253 of 317 Old 06-25-2015, 01:21 PM
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My question is very basic and relates to the settings on the miniDSP OpenDRC-AN

I have four subs, two in the front and two in the rear. The fronts are equi-distant from the MLP as are the rears. The fronts have one amp driving them as do the rears.

I want to use the miniDSP to set trims on the front 2 (collectively), trims on the back two (collectively), distance on the front two (collectively) and distance on the back two (collectively), BUT EQ all subs at once (one sub output from my pre pro).

I'm sure I am reading this wrong but I can't determine the physical setup. That is neither "stereo" nor "channel 1" nor "channel 2" seems to give me what I want. The manual says the stereo has dedicated paths for both channels and channel 1 and channel 2 only apply to channel 1 and channel two respectively..

What I think I need is for the channel 1 input to apply to both of the two output channel. That would allow me to set trims and distances individually on the two sets of outputs but EQ the one input.

Assistance requested.
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post #254 of 317 Old 06-25-2015, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
My question is very basic and relates to the settings on the miniDSP OpenDRC-AN

I have four subs, two in the front and two in the rear. The fronts are equi-distant from the MLP as are the rears. The fronts have one amp driving them as do the rears.

I want to use the miniDSP to set trims on the front 2 (collectively), trims on the back two (collectively), distance on the front two (collectively) and distance on the back two (collectively), BUT EQ all subs at once (one sub output from my pre pro).

I'm sure I am reading this wrong but I can't determine the physical setup. That is neither "stereo" nor "channel 1" nor "channel 2" seems to give me what I want. The manual says the stereo has dedicated paths for both channels and channel 1 and channel 2 only apply to channel 1 and channel two respectively..

What I think I need is for the channel 1 input to apply to both of the two output channel. That would allow me to set trims and distances individually on the two sets of outputs but EQ the one input.

Assistance requested.
AVS member JerryAustin has a setup similar to yours and has written a guide on how to time align multiple subs in the following post here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post30501889

Download the guide, print it out, pull up a chair, pour out your favorite beverage and have a good read.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, Harmony Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.
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post #255 of 317 Old 06-26-2015, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
My question is very basic and relates to the settings on the miniDSP OpenDRC-AN
While I don't own and haven't worked with the OpenDRC-AN, it seems that the situation you describe is similar to the 4-sub setup described in my tutorial.

I'd use one of the outputs for the front subs, and the other output for the back subs. If your AVR has a single output, use a Y-splitter to drive both of the MiniDSP inputs.

You have to set exactly the same FIR parameters on all paths if you want to EQ the subs all at once. I am not familiar with the plugins for the OpenDRC but presumably there is a function to copy FIR parameters from one block to another. The only difference between the two paths will be the trims and distances.

I am not sure of the differences between stereo mode and L / R modes in the OpenDRC-AN but presumably stereo allows having different FIR settings on different outputs. If a mono setting allows using both output, it may be simpler (a single FIR box?) but if you must use stereo to get the two outputs working, then the FIR parameters in the two boxes should be identical.

I hope this helps!

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post #256 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 09:20 AM
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What an awesome thread, just took the time to read the entire thing and I feel much more comfortable setting up my Minidsp now. I did have a question when it comes to multiple subs. I'm running dual SVS subs (PC-12 Plus and a PC-13 Ultra) and know that because they are not a match, I need to gain match. That seems easy enough using the Minidsp. As Neutro said (two years ago), ideally what I would like to do is set the Sledge Amp's on both subs to 0db, and work with the volume within the Minidsp when it comes to volume. Considering that the Sledge Amp is more of a attenuation then actual again control, plus the limiters that SVS puts in place, I think I should be safe on this. The actual question is what do I do with the sub trims in the AVR? I would assume that I set those to zero as well, that way I'm dealing with audio directly within the Minidsp.

I'm going to run Audyssey as well, though I don't have an AVR with SubEQ HT. If I do the work using the Minidsp, and my AVR comes back (it's a Denon) with the -12db trim setting, meaning that it's outside of what can be adjusted, do I go ahead and set the trim back up to zero and then use the Minidsp and REW exclusively to adjust the bass? What effect would that have the the rest of the Audyssey filters?

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post #257 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 09:24 AM
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post #258 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 09:48 AM
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I've got the 2x4 unbalanced.

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post #259 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 10:31 AM
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^^^

In that case, you will want to measure the output voltage from your AVR's sub out and see which sub trim setting exceeds .9v (the max input for the unbalanced MiniDSP).

Here's a great write up from @AustinJerry :

Using the MiniDSP 2x4 to Time-Align Multiple Subs on a Single Channel - Rev 1.1

Step 6 is where he addresses the gain/voltage issues. All of your other questions are answered as well.

I had a lot of issues with the MiniDSP early on so I put it away for almost a year. Then I used Jerry's guide and I finally got it up and running the way it should be.
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post #260 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
ideally what I would like to do is set the Sledge Amp's on both subs to 0db, and work with the volume within the Minidsp when it comes to volume.
That's the idea in principle. However you may find out (as I did) that 0dB is still too loud to properly attenuate using the MiniDSP. It doesn't matter too much -- the idea is that the volume on the subs remain fixed and you adjust the volume on the MiniDSP in order to level-match the subs.

Quote:
The actual question is what do I do with the sub trims in the AVR? I would assume that I set those to zero as well, that way I'm dealing with audio directly within the Minidsp.
When launching Audyssey with SubEQ HT, you are typically asked to set the volume of each sub (to 75 dB SPL) at the beginning. That's where you'd adjust the volumes in the MiniDSP --- this will effectively level-match the subs. Subsequently, Audyssey may adjust the subs' levels so that they reach 75 dB SPL total. Once Audyssey has run, you can use your AVR trim level to adjust sub level to taste. Thus, of the volume level adjustments:

  • The sub amp volumes are fixed and are never changed;
  • The MiniDSP volumes are adjusted during setup so as to level-match the subs;
  • The AVR trim level can be adjusted to taste afterward.

Of course nothing prevents you from adjusting the MiniDSP levels afterwards but it may be much simpler to use the AVR remote...

If you want to use the MiniDSP to add a house curve though, this must be done after running Audyssey or else Audyssey will try to compensate for it / flatten it.

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post #261 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 01:07 PM
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If nothing else I would like to run the SVS with the gain as high as possible, and work on lower the the volume elsewhere in the system. I had a long talk with the guys at SVS today, and they did state that the subs run their best with the amp's fully powered.

My biggest challenge is going to be having the mismatched subs. Right now I have both subs corner loaded in the front of the room (theater is still being worked on, so I haven't tested anything yet), but the more I think about it the more I am wanting to move my PC-12 Plus near-field. If I do that the Minidsp should be a very helpful tool in getting the phase adjusted correctly.

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post #262 of 317 Old 07-21-2015, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
If nothing else I would like to run the SVS with the gain as high as possible, and work on lower the the volume elsewhere in the system. I had a long talk with the guys at SVS today, and they did state that the subs run their best with the amp's fully powered.
That's right. SVS subs with the Sledge amp should be used at 0 dB gain if possible.

The problem I had is that with two Pluses in a small room, I had to set the volume so low on the MiniDSP and the AVR that the Auto ON feature of the Sledge amp would not kick unless I got at "medium-high" volumes. Since 95% of my usage is at moderate volume, I prefer setting the amp gain lower but having the auto-ON kick at low volumes.

If you always leave the subs on, or if you always listen at high volume, or if your room needs higher gain levels to begin with, you may very well be able to live with 0 dB gain on the Sledge amps.

Quote:
My biggest challenge is going to be having the mismatched subs.
Should not be that much of a problem unless you're close to the limits of the Plus.

Quote:
the more I think about it the more I am wanting to move my PC-12 Plus near-field. If I do that the Minidsp should be a very helpful tool in getting the phase adjusted correctly.
Indeed -- if you run into the Plus' limits, placing it closer will even out the odds between it and the Ultra. And as you said, you can fine-tune distance/phase easily with the MiniDSP.
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post #263 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 06:23 AM
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Looking for some advice, I messed around with sub placement last night and have found that opposite corners tend to be the best location. With very little work, I end up with a almost flat response from 15hz-50hz. After 50hz however it is a lot more messy, with a very deep null right around 50hz. Any advice on how to clean that up? I'm hoping that figuring out how to get the phase correct will solve the problem.

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post #264 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 07:28 AM
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How far away is each sub from the MLP?

Did you try adjusting phase on one of the subs??

Do you have some measurements we can look at?
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post #265 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 07:38 AM
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Subs are approximately 6ft and 11ft away. I would love to post the charts, but I'm doing this on my desktop which doesn't have internet access in the theater (no wireless connection, and no Ethernet in the theater).

When playing with the delay settings on the Minidsp, should I be adjusting one sub or both? I'm a little confused on how to get the phase dialed in.

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post #266 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 08:23 AM
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After you run whatever auto-cal your AVR has (I'm assuming your AVR doesn't have the ability to calibrate dual subs), you would be adjusting the delay on the closer sub.

Delay in milliseconds = distance in inches / 13.5

So, in your case:

60" (the difference between the 2 subs) / 13.5 = 4.44444

So, 4.5ms would be a good starting point. Run some sweeps and play with the delay a bit up and down from that point to see if you can improve the response.

Then, once you have the 2 subs working as a "system", do the sub distance tweak.
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post #267 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 08:44 AM
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What does the 13.5 represent?

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post #268 of 317 Old 07-29-2015, 10:04 AM
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post #269 of 317 Old 07-30-2015, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
After you run whatever auto-cal your AVR has (I'm assuming your AVR doesn't have the ability to calibrate dual subs), you would be adjusting the delay on the closer sub.

Delay in milliseconds = distance in inches / 13.5

So, in your case:

60" (the difference between the 2 subs) / 13.5 = 4.44444

So, 4.5ms would be a good starting point. Run some sweeps and play with the delay a bit up and down from that point to see if you can improve the response.

Then, once you have the 2 subs working as a "system", do the sub distance tweak.
This advice was great, I was able to get the best looking charts I've ever had for my subs doing this. There still is some room to go, my seat is looking great, but the other seat in the room (it's a two seat theater) still has a null around 50hz. I'll play around some more and try to eliminate that problem, but overall I've very pleased.
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post #270 of 317 Old 07-30-2015, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
This advice was great, I was able to get the best looking charts I've ever had for my subs doing this. There still is some room to go, my seat is looking great, but the other seat in the room (it's a two seat theater) still has a null around 50hz. I'll play around some more and try to eliminate that problem, but overall I've very pleased.
Getting all the seats fairly even is a bit harder. Calibration works well for one seat unless you have a distributed bass system.
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