Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Between the Sub 2 and Triax, I would go with the Sub 2, but I am not a fan of either design. At $4k, I would go for a Funk 18.3. That will give you more tangible output down low than either of the others, and I would rather have one great driver than a handful of good ones.

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post #32 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Between the Sub 2 and Triax, I would go with the Sub 2, but I am not a fan of either design. At $4k, I would go for a Funk 18.3. That will give you more tangible output down low than either of the others, and I would rather have one great driver than a handful of good ones.

The only problem with the Funk 18.3 is placement......can it be placed on its side (horizontal)? Even then, it will be a tight fit between the center speaker and front speaker (I have since upgraded to Klipsch speakers over the Paradigms that are shown in my posted pictures and I have the Klipsch RC-64 II, so it is twice as long as the Center 3 in the picture, leaving less room than what is shown)
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post #33 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 09:23 PM
 
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It can be used horizontally, that won't affect performance. Nathan at Funk should be able to customize it for you to be used in that orientation pretty easily. Give Funk a call or drop them an email.
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post #34 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 10:25 PM
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Funk will customize anything they make, if I remember correctly there's a $150 or $200 adder for that though.
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post #35 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 10:28 PM
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Honestly though a Funk 18.3 would not have any significant output advantage over a Triax yet it would cost you $1000 more. I also believe the warranty is longer on the Triax. Something else to consider.
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post #36 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 10:47 PM
 
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The 18.3 could easily have a output advantage around its tuning point, which is, I believe, 15 Hz or so. I think it will have a sound quality advantage too. It probably doesn't weigh 200 lbs either.
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post #37 of 168 Old 09-26-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The 18.3 could easily have a output advantage around its tuning point, which is, I believe, 15 Hz or so. I think it will have a sound quality advantage too. It probably doesn't weigh 200 lbs either.

LOL....oh god here we go again. The Triax isn't even released and you already think its not a good sub.
The Triax is be every bit as good as Funk's 18.3. And I also think you're crazy to think the 18.3 won't weight pretty much 200lbs, it has a larger enclosure then a JTR S2 and both use quality drivers and the Cap S2 is 195lbs.

You do realize with the Triax was designed it was a no holds bar sub, meaning its been designed/engineered and built to compete with all of the top end subs. A single Triax is going to have some serious output all the way down to single digits.

Just an FYI, right from the Funk webpage "124db maximum output at 2m ground plane"

The Triax is listed to have 127.1dB output, 3dB is a significant output advantage.
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post #38 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 12:01 AM
 
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I didn't say the Traix won't be a good sub. I think it would be very good, it just wouldn't be my first choice at its price point.

As for the weight, Funk uses Baltic Birch, which is substantially lighter yet stronger than MDF. It also only has one driver which is using a neodymium motor, again lighter yet much stronger. It won't be a light sub, but it will certainly weigh less than the JTR S2 and Triax.

Also, no single sub has serious output down to the single digits- serious output being defined as that which you could perceive. It's better to have strong output down to where it counts. Here the Funk may have a hefty advantage thanks to its passive radiators, whereby it exchanges imperceptible single digit output for more output in appreciable, yet still very deep frequency ranges.

Also, calling 127 dB over 124 dB a serious advantage is pretty silly. First of all, hardly anyone would want to run either of these anywhere near that loud. Secondly, those SPL measurements were likely taken at an upper bass frequency, especially in the case of the Triax. The 18.3 will have more even frequency response and possibly more output down low. However, if you just want a SPL drag race, yes, I agree, the Traix would probably get louder overall, but there is more to bass performance than raw output. Sound quality wise, one great driver will always be better than any quantity of merely good drivers. Since either sub will give you more output than you will need, it would be better to go with that which sounds better. This is also why I would go with the Sub 2 over the Triax as well, I think its drivers may be qualitatively better. However, one thing about the Sub 2 I do not like is all the different points of possible failure. Six drivers means six times the likelyhood of a driver failure. I also don't like how much energy has to be pumped into it to achieve the same SPL as subs with larger cones, it is bound to get hot in that cabinet, especially with an absurd 240 Volt line, which increases it chances of mechanical failure. The Traix has these problems too, although not nearly as severe. A single, efficient, high quality driver with passive radiators or ports avoids these problem at the cost of some SPL but with the reward of potentially better sound quality.
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post #39 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The 18.3 could easily have a output advantage around its tuning point, which is, I believe, 15 Hz or so. I think it will have a sound quality advantage too. It probably doesn't weigh 200 lbs either.

You are tedious

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post #40 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 05:59 AM
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LOL....oh god here we go again. The Triax isn't even released and you already think its not a good sub.
The Triax is be every bit as good as Funk's 18.3. And I also think you're crazy to think the 18.3 won't weight pretty much 200lbs, it has a larger enclosure then a JTR S2 and both use quality drivers and the Cap S2 is 195lbs.

You do realize with the Triax was designed it was a no holds bar sub, meaning its been designed/engineered and built to compete with all of the top end subs. A single Triax is going to have some serious output all the way down to single digits.

Just an FYI, right from the Funk webpage "124db maximum output at 2m ground plane"

The Triax is listed to have 127.1dB output, 3dB is a significant output advantage.

And the Triax will yield another .5-1.5db from the upgraded drivers that have 44lb motors.
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post #41 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 06:45 AM
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another terrible post

lol. Why do you always go out of your way to crap on PSA? You're ridiculous.
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post #42 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 06:53 AM
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Being my last build was with a CSS 12” SDX coupled with two 12” passives I have no doubt that the 18.3 would and is quite the performer with awesome SQ. I might equate the design to coming in between sealed and vented. A much better design and performer than I ever anticipated to be sure. That being said, I have no doubt the Triax being a sealed design with the components and power along with it’s dsp program will be every much as sub as the 18.3 SQ wise and spl wise. A good quality sealed sub is about as good as it gets imo when it has some of the traits of a vented design packed in a sealed design. No it’s not cheap to do so (not like putting a driver in a sealed enclosure and throwing a amp at it) but is well worth it if a guy has the opportunity to own such a sw. If I don’t win that Triax over at the Shack, biggrin.gif my next build is going to be a 18” mae-x with two 18” PR’s. All I need is the two PR's and build the enclosure tongue.gif

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post #43 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:11 AM
 
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Outdoors? No. In a 2000 cubic foot space? That's a different ball of wax. Keep in mind that the Triax nominally has better than twice the displacement of a Seaton SubM and almost twice the rated amplifier power to make use of it.
Why "especially in the case of the Triax"? The 127dB figure is actually the rated 40-63Hz average with CEA 2010 bursts at 2m.
No offense, but I'm not convinced that you have even the tiniest of insights as to the quality of drivers that the Triax will utilize.

So what kind of SPLs do you need for sensible sound at single digit bass? 110? 120? Are you going to get that from three sealed 15"s? Doubtful. Look at what it takes for those AVSr's who have super systems, eight 18"s and so on, a single Triax will not have anywhere near that kind of displacement. Speaking of displacement, how does it get twice the displacement of the Submersive with only three 15"s? Do they have that much excursion? Again, doubtful. And twice the rated amplifier power? From a amp that only has 120 V line? Are you kidding me? Do you like resetting your circuit breaker a lot? That is pure marketing, and I know that you know better. The only sub being discussed here that actually deals in those kind of power levels is the Sub 2. As for their CEA measurements, I'll only really believe it when I see it from a trusted third party. Same goes for the Funk and Submersive too. However I am not debating that it can get loud, I would expect that. Regarding the drivers, I don't know much about the drivers they are using, but do you really think they will be on par with Funk's TSAD18? Do you think they will have the kind of cone control of those beastly motors that Paradigm has on their 10"s? I don't think so, especially in light of how badly they shortchanged the Power X driver.
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post #44 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:38 AM
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post #45 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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First things first, I need to see what kind of interest my current Sub 25 brings up to see if an upgrade is even feasible smile.gif

The major plus of the SUB 2 is that it is being purchased through a local authorized retailer in which I have an open GE Financing account that I can do 2 years same as cash on. Any other route involves cash in hand from my (hopeful) Sub 25 sale and the necessary remaining funds saved up as well.
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post #46 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 09:03 AM
 
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Being my last build was with a CSS 12” SDX coupled with two 12” passives I have no doubt that the 18.3 would and is quite the performer with awesome SQ. I might equate the design to coming in between sealed and vented. A much better design and performer than I ever anticipated to be sure. That being said, I have no doubt the Triax being a sealed design with the components and power along with it’s dsp program will be every much as sub as the 18.3 SQ wise and spl wise. A good quality sealed sub is about as good as it gets imo when it has some of the traits of a vented design packed in a sealed design. No it’s not cheap to do so (not like putting a driver in a sealed enclosure and throwing a amp at it) but is well worth it if a guy has the opportunity to own such a sw. If I don’t win that Triax over at the Shack, biggrin.gif my next build is going to be a 18” mae-x with two 18” PR’s. All I need is the two PR's and build the enclosure tongue.gif

Hey Steve, that would be an interesting design, emulating the Funk 18.3 with a XXX. One drawback that I see could be the upper bass response, much like what you see with Josh Ricci's monster ported XXX. What you are attempting may turn out very similarly. I don't think that is altogether bad actually, in fact, one idea is you might deliberately roll off everything above 50 or 60 Hz or so, in effect, making it into a 'deep bass module' kinda like how Hsu has the 'mid bass module', the MBM-12. By lessening the bandwidth that the amplifier has to deal with, you reserve more power to the bands that is does deal with. Add to that some kind of an MBM with a really light cone, maybe something using a JBL 2226, or maybe just get a couple Hsu MBM-12s. So you would end up with a true two way subwoofer system. The extra efficiency of this is where the deep bass sounds best is not usually where the mid and upper bass sound best, and so by separating the two bands and placing them in optimal locations you end up that much better of a system. Instead of fighting against the room acoustics, you can use the room acoustics to your advantage.
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post #47 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

First things first, I need to see what kind of interest my current Sub 25 brings up to see if an upgrade is even feasible smile.gif

The major plus of the SUB 2 is that it is being purchased through a local authorized retailer in which I have an open GE Financing account that I can do 2 years same as cash on. Any other route involves cash in hand from my (hopeful) Sub 25 sale and the necessary remaining funds saved up as well.

Look at Data-bass.com/systems ...The 1400.00 Rythmik FV15HP has more output then a Sub2 from 12.5hz-40hz. I would never spend that kind of money on that sub...
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post #48 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 09:36 AM
 
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Depends on the room. We're talking about a subwoofer that can theoretically outgun the Sub2 which can deliver nearly 95dB @ 10Hz outdoors at 2 meters, RMS. With the gain typical of a smaller space, it's very feasible for that number to go up quite a lot.
They're rated for a 3" (76mm) peak to peak throw, versus the 22mm xmech (44mm peak to peak) of the Eminence LAB15 drivers used by the SubM.
As Tom has pointed out repeatedly, in real world use, it won't be a problem. A 4000W subwoofer amplifier isn't comparable to running a hair dryer and vacuum on the same circuit in that the draw isn't continuous.
At this point, nobody knows. However, I would note that there isn't anything magical about the Funk driver. It's a very good and capable 18" driver to be sure, but even the Dayton 18" HO driver's measurements look extremely clean, even if the driver doesn't boast as much linear excursion.
The PowerX 15" isn't perfect, but I wouldn't call it badly short changed either.

The ultra deep bass numbers would go up a lot in a small or medium room, true, but enough for single digit frequencies to be perceivable? I think it may be optimistic that any one commercial subwoofer could do that. Speaking of optimism, 'peak to peak' doesn't have any industry meaning. You will need real xmech and xmax numbers for excursion to have meaning. Does the Triax drivers really have 38 mm xmech? Who, outside of PSA, really knows, but I wouldn't think so. It's just another way to inflate their specs, just like their amp rating and just like their CEA measurements. Speaking of inflated amp specs, Gene Dellasala took the wind out of that sail pretty well, as you will no doubt remember.
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post #49 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:04 AM
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Look at Data-bass.com/systems ...The 1400.00 Rythmik FV15HP has more output then a Sub2 from 12.5hz-40hz. I would never spend that kind of money on that sub...

ding ding ding, we have a winner!!...lol

Basshead is exactly right, and from 50hz and up dual FV15HP's would equal the output of a Sub 2 while at the same time providing all of the benefits of multiple subs. Other then the deal the OP has been offered on a Sub 2, I have never heard of an authorized Paradigm dealer willing to sell a sub the retails for $8999us at 50% off of retail. Honestly I'd be willing to bet the Paradigm would be furious if they found out one did because in their minds its probably de-valuing their product.
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post #50 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The ultra deep bass numbers would go up a lot in a small or medium room, true, but enough for single digit frequencies to be perceivable? I think it may be optimistic that any one commercial subwoofer could do that. Speaking of optimism, 'peak to peak' doesn't have any industry meaning. You will need real xmech and xmax numbers for excursion to have meaning. Does the Triax drivers really have 38 mm xmech? Who, outside of PSA, really knows, but I wouldn't think so. It's just another way to inflate their specs, just like their amp rating and just like their CEA measurements. Speaking of inflated amp specs, Gene Dellasala took the wind out of that sail pretty well, as you will no doubt remember.

Its the exact same amp rating JTR and Seaton uses on their subs along with the manufacture Speakerpower and you don't call them out....lol

But yet you'll believe Paradigm when they say their amp is 4500w rated?....lol
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post #51 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:10 AM
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The 1400.00 Rythmik FV15HP has more output then a Sub2 from 12.5hz-40hz. I would never spend that kind of money on that sub...

I would, and I did. Stop being a hater. The Rythmik is a bargain, but the SUB 2 is a very, very nice subwoofer to own. Why shouldn't we be allowed to own nice things? It seems some forum members would like to drive Paradigm out of business if they could.
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At 4k we need to be talking about the Seaton SubMersive master/slave combo

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post #53 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Other then the deal the OP has been offered on a Sub 2, I have never heard of an authorized Paradigm dealer willing to sell a sub the retails for $8999us at 50% off of retail. Honestly I'd be willing to bet the Paradigm would be furious if they found out one did because in their minds its probably de-valuing their product.

The low price is due to the original purchasing scenario of this Sub 2. This model was purchased by the dealer as a sort of "demo" model right when Paradigm was showcasing the subwoofer directly from a rep who had brought it for demonstration purposes. The price they purchased it at/the time they purchased it was before an an MSRP was established and prices were set.....something along those lines is what I was told as to why I am getting this price offer. He even stated they are still making a profit, but not nearly what it should be (the price tag on the floor says $9999, so it's not like they are advetising this price openly to everyone).

It certainly is hard to say no to.
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post #54 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:23 AM
 
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Peak to peak excursion doesn't indicate whether said excursion is linear or not (xmax), but at a minimum it is xmech (maximum excursion before driver damage).
It probably doesn't have 38mm of xmax, but there's nothing special about 38mm of xmech.
Gene certainly disagreed with Tom, but Gene was also trying to compare conventional amplifiers which are rated to run continuously per the FTC to subwoofer amps which simply aren't. The Triax's 4000W rating really isn't any different than the 1400W short term RMS rating for the VTF-15H.

There is no precise definition of peak to peak, but I would go with xmech x 2. The problem is, is this what PSA means? Why wouldn't they just say xmax or xmech? Also, if they mean xmech x 2, why would they want to boast that spec since you would never want to run it to that point? But since there isn't any agreed industry standard, they have room to further inflate their specs. You really don't know what the drivers are capable of, and PSA isn't being forthcoming with any parameters that have meaning. Also, I do understand what spec is meant by the Triaxs peak wattage, however it is an inflated marketing number, just like the Hsu, it doesn't have any meaning since you can not draw that much energy from a normal 20 amp circuit. The industry standard for amplifier power ratings is continuous RMS, why can't they just list that? Because bigger numbers must mean better to an uninformed consumer.
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post #55 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I would, and I did. Stop being a hater. The Rythmik is a bargain, but the SUB 2 is a very, very nice subwoofer to own. Why shouldn't we be allowed to own nice things? It seems some forum members would like to drive Paradigm out of business if they could.

Not being a hater...just trying to offer some information before the Op makes an expensive mistake....

In regards to your purchase on the Sub2, congrats or oops... which ever one fits best. smile.gif

I have about 15 pairs of Paradigm bookshelf speakers that I have used in bars/clubs over the years. I have herd and owned a few Paradigm subs and they sounded great. They are nice speakers minus the foam surround that rots off prematurely, but they do sound great. However there are much better buys in the subwoofer department.
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post #56 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:44 AM
 
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Its the exact same amp rating JTR and Seaton uses on their subs along with the manufacture Speakerpower and you don't call them out....lol

But yet you'll believe Paradigm when they say their amp is 4500w rated?....lol

As far as I know, Seaton and JTR are using the more traditional continuous RMS ratings. Correct me if I am wrong on this point. As for the Paradigm, it's at least possible that it could have a 4.5kW continuous RMS amplifier because it does have a 240V input. I don't know that it truly does do 4.5 kW continuous, but its 120V line is restricted to 3 kW continuous to prevent circuit tripping, so I think it is likely true. I also think shoving so much power into such a small cabinet is not a good idea. Remember the vast majority of energy dumped into drivers is released as heat, and now we are feeding enough energy into a subwoofer that would bring a typical electrical oven, to what, 400, 500 degrees? It takes 2 kW to keep a typical electrical oven to 350.
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post #57 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Its the exact same amp rating JTR and Seaton uses on their subs along with the manufacture Speakerpower and you don't call them out....lol

But yet you'll believe Paradigm when they say their amp is 4500w rated?....lol

You are wasting breath...its like AVS pays ShadyJ to Troll...I get infraction Points from Moderators for posting a Signature Tag Audioholics awarded him with, yet he is allowed to consistently bash and make false claims here on a daily basis. Lol

You can pull 4500watts from a 15amp circuit long as it is short bursts, which most source content is. The only way you would trip the breaker is playing a sine wave full tilt for a duration of time. He knows this, but he is just trolling. The Triax driver has 3 - 3" peak to peak excursion drivers that sport 44lb motors and 4500watts of power. I betting it lays down 110-112db @ 15hz 2m ground plane numbers.
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post #58 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:54 AM
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There was a video of an Paradigm engineer setting their amplifier to output a 60Hz signal and connecting it to a toaster oven and tea kettle, and proceeding to boil water. The video has disappeared, but it was proof the 4500 watt continuous output spec was real.

I wish I saved a copy.
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post #59 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

As far as I know, Seaton and JTR are using the more traditional continuous RMS ratings. Correct me if I am wrong on this point. As for the Paradigm, it's at least possible that it could have a 4.5kW continuous RMS amplifier because it does have a 240V input. I don't know that it truly does do 4.5 kW continuous, but its 120V line is restricted to 3 kW continuous to prevent circuit tripping, so I think it is likely true. I also think shoving so much power into such a small cabinet is not a good idea. Remember the vast majority of energy dumped into drivers is released as heat, and now we are feeding enough energy into a subwoofer that would bring a typical electrical oven, to what, 400, 500 degrees? It takes 2 kW to keep a typical electrical oven to 350.

PSA is no different then JTR and SpeakerPower, they all rate the same amp that JTR & PSA use as 4000w.
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post #60 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

There was a video of an Paradigm engineer setting their amplifier to output a 60Hz signal and connecting it to a toaster oven and tea kettle, and proceeding to boil water. The video has disappeared, but it was proof the 4500 watt continuous output spec was real.I wish I saved a copy.

Here's all I could find about the videos:

http://www.goodsound.com/editorial/200912.htm
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