Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Probably because those terms might as well be Greek to most folks. .
Again, they are relying in the uninformed consumer to make a sale.
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Sure they are: those CEA2010 burst figures are a lot harder to fudge with guys like Josh Ricci running around. You can also use them to get an idea of how much linear excursion the driver is capable of. Assuming the numbers are peak, and being conservative with the 20-32Hz average of 116.4dB and just saying the Triax can deliver 116.4dB @ 32Hz @ 2m, that still equates to ~15mm of xmax. If PSA's numbers are RMS, that jumps up to ~21mm.
Of course you can, just not continuously.
.

PSA is posing the Triax numbers to appear 4000 watts continuous, which is why they have that 8 kW peak spec there. If you try to draw 8 kW from a 20 amp circuit for more than an instant, there goes your circuit. I am not even sure a 20 amp circuit could take that for the briefest of moments. Either way, PSA is being disingenuous about their power spec with respect to their competition.

As for the CEA numbers, I would want third party verification for those, and if you really want to analyze its performance, we need distortion measurements, compression, etc.
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post #62 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

PSA is no different then JTR and SpeakerPower, they all rate the same amp that JTR & PSA use as 4000w.

If that is the case, I think they should be more realistic about the power those subwoofers are going to use and will be able to use on a normal circuit. I get what they mean, but they can't take full advantage of those amps with a normal 20 amp circuit.
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post #63 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

There was a video of an Paradigm engineer setting their amplifier to output a 60Hz signal and connecting it to a toaster oven and tea kettle, and proceeding to boil water. The video has disappeared, but it was proof the 4500 watt continuous output spec was real.

I wish I saved a copy.

This is not really a good thing. Another problem with all the heat generated from these massive amps is thermal compression. As the drivers get hotter they lose sensitivity, and so the same wattage won't lead to the same output as the temperatures rise. In a sub like the Sub 2, where does all that heat go? On the plus side for the Sub 2, think of the magnetic force vs cone assembly ratio for the whole subwoofer. Six 10" woofers have about the same area as a single 24" woofer. The Sub 2 is almost like a 24" driver with correspondingly massive motor to its 10"s. Most of the weight in that unit will be sheer magnet. That should make for extremely tight bass.
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post #64 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If that is the case, I think they should be more realistic about the power those subwoofers are going to use and will be able to use on a normal circuit. I get what they mean, but they can't take full advantage of those amps with a normal 20 amp circuit.

People who buy subs like these should have no problem getting new panels and dedicated 30/40/50A circuits installed. Also, there have been posts by Mark Seaton on the subject before stating that people should have no issues running a pair of Submersive HPs on a regular 15A circuit. Unless you are expecting to run sinewaves or whatever at max volume (which would be a bad idea anyway), you wouldn't have any problems.

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post #65 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 12:37 PM
 
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For sensible single digit output, it would have to be enormous, but until we have established exactly how much it would take, it's all speculation anyway. There are some papers that deal with the subject I would like to look at, audibility of infrasonics, but they are behind a paywall.
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post #66 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 12:51 PM
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The SpeakerPower amps are efficient, quality, high power amps made in the USA.

http://www.speakerpower.net/sp1-mono-models.html

20 amp circuits can pass quite a bit of power for a short duration, like those peaks in movies.

From FOH's post

"A 20 amp circuit can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more. It will allow up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so. And most importantly, the same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

* That's over 100amps for around 1-2 seconds, about 60amps for around 10 seconds, and the circuit will allow 30-40amps for as long as 30 seconds! From a 20a breaker."

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1491934/how-much-can-a-breaker-withstand

FI is a well known build house, they are doing the triax drivers for PSA

Ricci-
"The driver is produced to JTR specs by the Fi build house, as are most heavy duty subs that are made in the US. Ascendant, Fi, SSA, PowerSound uses some, JTR uses some, SMD, etc..."

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1484789/hesitant-to-take-the-plunge/30#post_23605071

Multiple drivers increase system efficiency.

They had to change driver build house to FI after some issues and are getting a better driver than anticipated, and the price will be going up soon. They use good parts, the cabs seem well built, and they seem to have some great finish options. What's not to like about the Triax, especially at that introductory price? smile.gif
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post #67 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post


They had to change driver build house to FI after some issues and are getting a better driver than anticipated, and the price will be going up soon. They use good parts, the cabs seem well built, and they seem to have some great finish options. What's not to like about the Triax, especially at that introductory price? smile.gif

I'm sure Shady could find a list of things not to like about the Triax....LOL

Number 1 on the list: it's a PSA sub biggrin.gif
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post #68 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm sure Shady could find a list of things not to like about the Triax....LOL

Number 1 on the list: it's a PSA sub biggrin.gif

I'm not a fan of PSA, but there is a lot to like about the Triax on the face of it. I never said it was bad at all. However, at these high prices points I would just rather have a single great driver or two at the most for reasons I have already explained.
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post #69 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 03:06 PM
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I sense somebody is back peddling so hard the soles of his shoes are smoking. smile.gif
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post #70 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm not a fan of PSA

LOL....shocking!...rolleyes.gif LOL
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post #71 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 05:23 PM
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Not sure that much of anything is a significant upgrade to what you have now. Perhaps make a bid for the Paradigm Sub 12 listed on Audiogon to supplement and balance out your current unit? Why would a SubMersive or JTR or similar sub produce better sound than a Sub 25? I would think the driver and amp in your unit likely are superior (from a music fidelity standpoint, at least) and if you need a bit more grunt, get another Paradigm as a complement (even a somewhat smaller one like the '12). Funk would be the possible exception, but how much would you need to spend to exceed the power of two Paradigms?
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post #72 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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So........

My list seems to be:

- Paradigm SUB 2
- Funk Audio 18.3
- PSA Triax
- Rythmik FV15HP (x2)

Anything I am missing to consider given my budget and space?

Thanks!
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post #73 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 05:34 PM
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Another option to consider maybe is dual F25's from Rythmik.
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post #74 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Loads of potential options, though a lot really depends on what you're looking for from a subwoofer (do size & aesthetics matter, or just sheer output?) and the properties of your room. With 2250 cubic feet of space, I'd suspect a sealed sub with substantial output into the infrasonic range ala the Sub 2 or Funk 18.0 would be very interesting. A pair of Rythmik F25s come in at $2,882 shipped in the lower 48 states which. The Rythmik 15" subs are bona fide overachievers in my book, and I'd not be surprised if the F25 could give a very good accounting of itself versus the Funk 18.0 one to one (let alone 2-1), albeit at the expense of aesthetics & size.

Whatever I can fit in my limited front space. I also have room for a subwoofer in the back left corner of my room if I went a dual subwoofer route. Aesthetics are not important if they deliver on sound.

I am having a hard time comparing the F25 to the FV15HP....which one is superior? The F25 should be since it's dual woofers, right?
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post #75 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, ARC has done a phenomenal job of getting a mostly even response across my two rows of seat with the single Sub 25. So if all dual subs offer is the advantage of more even response, I'm already covered with ARC in this room. However, if the advantage of dual subs (like the Rythmiks) is the addition of 3 or 6dB's at the low end, than I'm all for it as a consideration still.

So let's take the Sub 2. On the ultra low end it beats a single FV15HP. But if it was one Sub 2 vs. two FV15HP's, would the Sub 2 still come out on top?
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post #76 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 06:45 PM
 
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The FV15HP will have more deep bass, not below 10 Hz, but more above 15 Hz. That will make a bigger difference since you are not likely to notice 10 Hz, but 15 and above is much more easily perceived. Two FV15HPs will sound more authoritative in deep bass. If you are chasing after big output in deep bass, ported is the way to go. Passive radiators like the Funk 18.3 also give a boost in output in this region. An 18.3 would likely outperform a single FV15HP in this range, but two FV15HPs would give it a run for its money.
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post #77 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, narrowed the list down a little further after consideration:

- Sub 2
- FV15HP (x2)
- F25 (x2)

My only hesitation with the Rythmik route is it's dual subs. And historically I have always had an irrational nagging with dual subs that they are never perfect. With a single sub and ARC, after using quick measure I have literally been able to "set it and forget it". But with duals, is it just as easy? Is it just a matter of trim level matching the two subs to 75dB (or 70dB, depending on peoples thoughts) at the MLP and then running ARC? Can a "single sub" EQ software like ARC still have good results with dual subs or will it not account for the two interacting together correctly like Audyssey XT32 does?
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post #78 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

OK, narrowed the list down a little further after consideration:

- Sub 2
- FV15HP (x2)
- F25 (x2)

My only hesitation with the Rythmik route is it's dual subs. And historically I have always had an irrational nagging with dual subs that they are never perfect. With a single sub and ARC, after using quick measure I have literally been able to "set it and forget it". But with duals, is it just as easy? Is it just a matter of trim level matching the two subs to 75dB (or 70dB, depending on peoples thoughts) at the MLP and then running ARC? Can a "single sub" EQ software like ARC still have good results with dual subs or will it not account for the two interacting together correctly like Audyssey XT32 does?

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.
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post #79 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 07:29 PM
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F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
LV12R: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db
Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
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post #80 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.

It's in the background as an option.....but with no definite time table on first order shipments, I don't want to sit around too long, especially given also having to wait after release for a good 3rd party review. Not saying you are wrong or that it isn't everything it says it is, but like to buy a proven product and not be one of the first to own something new. Never had good luck in such situations. lol
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post #81 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:11 PM
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It's in the background as an option.....but with no definite time table on first order shipments, I don't want to sit around too long, especially given also having to wait after release for a good 3rd party review. Not saying you are wrong or that it isn't everything it says it is, but like to buy a proven product and not be one of the first to own something new. Never had good luck in such situations. lol

That's too bad, you could still get in on the pre-order pricing before it goes up $500+ in the next week or so.
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post #82 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:15 PM
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Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.



Triax 20-31hz = 116.4db, 40-63hz = 127.1db

Sub2 20-31hz = 109.8db, 40-63hz = 119.8db

Rythmik FV15HP 20-31hz = 111.8db 1 port, 112.7db 2port. 40-63hz = 117.1db 1 port, 119.1db 2 port

Funk 18.0 20-31hz = 109.1db(240 volt), 40-63hz = 120.5db(240volt)

PSA Cea2010 2m ground plane numbers were spot on with Ricci's for the XV15, so its a 99% percent gurantee its going to meet or exceed those numbers with the upgraded drivers. It would take 2 of each sub mentioned to equal the Triax and they would still fall short except dual FV15HP in the 20-31hz range. Bottom line its a ****ing beast!
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post #83 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

That's too bad, you could still get in on the pre-order pricing before it goes up $500+ in the next week or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Triax 20-31hz = 116.4db, 40-63hz = 127.1db

Sub2 20-31hz = 109.8db, 40-63hz = 119.8db

Rythmik FV15HP 20-31hz = 111.8db 1 port, 112.7db 2port. 40-63hz = 117.1db 1 port, 119.1db 2 port

Funk 18.0 20-31hz = 109.1db(240 volt), 40-63hz = 120.5db(240volt)

PSA Cea2010 2m ground plane numbers were spot on with Ricci's for the XV15, so its a 99% percent gurantee its going to meet or exceed those numbers with the upgraded drivers. It would take 2 of each sub mentioned to equal the Triax and they would still fall short except dual FV15HP in the 20-31hz range. Bottom line its a ****ing beast!

Alright, Alright, the Triax is back on the list!
Jeez guys, twist my arms with those awesome stats some more why don't ya!

Only problem is I don't have the cash for a full down payment right now, so I wouldn't be able to get the introductory price :-(
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post #84 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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As a subwoofer graph newbie (other than simple frequency vs. dB), I am having a hard time figuring out the measurement graphs for the Triax. What is the difference between the "Program Button In" and "Program Button Out" graphs? What are the three colored lines representing?
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post #85 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:41 PM
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Does the Triax go down as low as the Sub 2?

Its +/-3db down to 15hz with single digit extension capability in room, so yes it will go everybit as low as the sub2 with much more output. Also look at the other measurements Ricci took of the Sub2. It starts to compress at 105db sweep because of the 12db eq boost centered around 14-15hz. On a 115db sweep the Sub2 shut down.
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post #86 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Its +/-3db down to 15hz with single digit extension capability in room, so yes it will go everybit as low as the sub2 with much more output. Also look at the other measurements Ricci took of the Sub2. It starts to compress at 105db sweep because of the 12db eq boost centered around 14-15hz. On a 115db sweep the Sub2 shut down.

Dang you, responded while I was mid edit on that post. lol

So I have decided it is between the Triax and the SUB 2.......I am pretty sure I know what you guys are going to recommend. Any other single sub setups to consider?
(I really do not want to deal with a dual sub setup......laziness I know).
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post #87 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post


Alright, Alright, the Triax is back on the list!
Jeez guys, twist my arms with those awesome stats some more why don't ya!

Only problem is I don't have the cash for a full down payment right now, so I wouldn't be able to get the introductory price :-(

That makes sense! I guess it’s going to have to come down to lie, steal and cheat to get one of these Triax’s. I might be asking to be bailed out of the clink though. rolleyes.gif

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post #88 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Dang you, responded while I was mid edit on that post. lol

So I have decided it is between the Triax and the SUB 2.......I am pretty sure I know what you guys are going to recommend. Any other single sub setups to consider?
(I really do not want to deal with a dual sub setup......laziness I know).

The Submersive HP+ and Funk 18.3 are other great options to consider well before the Sub2.
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post #89 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know if measurements exist for the Paradigm Sub 25 so I have a personal reference to compare the measurements of the new subs I am looking at to? Tried faithful Google, no luck.
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post #90 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 10:15 PM
 
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Dual subs don't have to be harder than a single sub to setup. They just take more work to perfect, but right off the bat, if you just want to set it up and forget about it, they could easily give you a better response than a single sub right away. As opposed to a single sub, they take less work to get a good, but more work to get perfect. If you want the best sound right away and don't want to tweak stuff, duals actually make more sense.
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