Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Forgive me if I am wrong, but when a sound system is first calibrated, SPL levels are all matched to 75dB using an accurate SPL meter (which corresponds to the 0db Master Volume number on the AVR). During playback, if one was listening at 0dB Master Volume, the movie is then playing back at reference level (105dB peaks for mains, 115dB peaks for sub). Correct?

Isn't that the 101 of matching levels on a new setup/AVR, to ensure that if one has the volume at 0dB MV on the AVR they are in fact listening at reference level during movie playback?
That is what I meant by listening at 70-73dB (which would correspond to 100-103dB for mains, 110-113dB for sub).



Yes, However this is not what you said in your previous post. You said that you only listen at 73-75db, when you should of said your subs are calibrated at 73db-75db, then I would of understood your post more clearly.
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post #122 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes, However this is not what you said in your previous post. You said that you only listen at 73-75db, when you should of said your subs are calibrated at 73db-75db, then I would of understood your post more clearly.

I know, sorry. I suppose the correct way of saying it for now on is that I listen at 110-113dB, right? Since that is the actual level that corresponds to the master volume calibrated level I listen at?

Now that my listening level is correctly sorted out, would you still assume that upgrading my sub would yield little noticeable difference or am I back on track for being advised to upgrade to one of the given options we have discussed?
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post #123 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I know, sorry. I suppose the correct way of saying it for now on is that I listen at 110-113dB, right? Since that is the actual level that corresponds to the master volume calibrated level I listen at?

Yep, so basically you listen just under reference which is Loud!
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post #124 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yep, so basically you listen just under reference which is Loud!

The addition of your exclamation mark isn't because you are worried for my safety, is it? lol biggrin.gif

So, now would you say I would benefit from an upgrade or should I stick with my lonely Sub 25?
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post #125 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at the Seaton Submersive Master/Slave option. Does Seaton not have a retail website....is all specs/pictures in the forums only?

I also see data-bass doesn't have any data for the Submersive. Any help there too? Looks like a promising option.........
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post #126 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I was looking at the Seaton Submersive Master/Slave option. Does Seaton not have a retail website....is all specs/pictures in the forums only?

I also see data-bass doesn't have any data for the Submersive. Any help there too? Looks like a promising option.........

You will not find any formal reviews on any of their subs.

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post #127 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

You will not find any formal reviews on any of their subs.

Is there a reason for that?
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post #128 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I was looking at the Seaton Submersive Master/Slave option. Does Seaton not have a retail website....is all specs/pictures in the forums only?

I also see data-bass doesn't have any data for the Submersive. Any help there too? Looks like a promising option.........

From a few posts a week ago, I believe Mark is sending one in in a week or two to be tested by Josh?? It would be nice to finally have it up on the Data site.

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post #129 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 11:00 AM
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As an owner of a Sub 2 I can say it really kicks ass and that is in a room with no treatment, open at the back of the room to the front door and a hallway that is in the middle of the room that goes towards the garage. I am only running on a 110v circuit that is shared because I can't afford to get a new electrical box and new line run from the pole at the moment not to mention then having a 240V line run into that room. One of these days but not yet.

Now, with all of that said the only other sub I have ever had in house was a Sub 12 that was a loaner before I got the Sub 2. I can not comment on how other subs perform. Though I would love to try out some of those seaton subs because they look awesome! For a small enclosure the Sub 2 belts out those low notes and makes the concrete foundation that it is one shake like crazy! I'm still new to this. With a wedding to pay for (my own!) and some house upgrades and repairs I can't really buy anything new but new main speakers are on the list eventually along with some new power! My fiancé states that if I ever got a second sub 2 that the house would collapse. Oh and the price you are getting it at is much better than I got mine for and I got almost 40% off but I am good friends with the sales manager and he owed me. Mine was brand new. I was told 2 months until I would get it and it was more like 2 weeks if that.
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post #130 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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*UPDATE*
Here is what my choices are narrowed down to:
- Paradigm SUB 2 ($3995)
- JTR Captivator S2 ($3000)
- PSA Triax ($2800)
- DUAL Rythmik F25's (~ $2800) or DUAL Rythmik FV15HP's (~$2600)
- Seaton Submersive HP (~ $2450)
- SVS PB13-Ultra ($2000)

Subwoofer(s) will be movie use only. Looking for the best possible output at reference level while also digging as deep as possible with authority (so best of both worlds, deepest AND loudest bass possible). Again, my room is 20x14x8ft.

Thanks.....been fun getting back into the hobby after almost 18 months of no change!
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post #131 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

*UPDATE*
Here is what my choices are narrowed down to:
- Paradigm SUB 2 ($3995)
- JTR Captivator S2 ($3000)
- PSA Triax ($2800)
- DUAL Rythmik F25's (~ $2800) or DUAL Rythmik FV15HP's (~$2600)
- Seaton Submersive HP (~ $2450)
- SVS PB13-Ultra ($2000)

Subwoofer(s) will be movie use only. Looking for the best possible output at reference level while also digging as deep as possible with authority (so best of both worlds, deepest AND loudest bass possible). Again, my room is 20x14x8ft.

Thanks.....been fun getting back into the hobby after almost 18 months of no change!

Keep in mind you'll have to pay freight on all on the ID subs. The Triax will probably only be on sale for a few more days and then it will be subject to a price increase, and if I had to guess it'll probably be close to $500-600. The freight is worked into the price of the Triax.

Really you can't go wrong with any of the choices! You room is pretty close to the size of my room and I run dual PSA XS30's and at times those can get pretty crazy!
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post #132 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, let me ask from a different perspective then:
With the choices listed above, which option will make a noticeable improvement over my current Sub 25 at the lowest price point? I.E - which is the most "affordable" upgrade over my Sub 25?

I'm just making sure I am not going through all this research, resale of my Sub 25, and addition of extra money into my budget all for minimal (or no) gain over what I already have.....I don't want to pay x amount extra just for a small percentage increase. That's the biggest hurdle to clear in this upgrade, obviously (which is especially hard given most of these subs are ID and I can't order one to try in-home until my Sub 25 is sold, so it's kind of a leap of faith based off educated opinions and tested results).
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post #133 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 04:14 PM
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I think any of the above would be a noticeable improvement for movies and as such the one with the lowest price point is obviously the PB13 Ultra, although this is the one I would probably not go for being the smallest upgrade over what you have. I would want duals if I had your budget and I like sealed subs (yes even for movies) so would go with the F25s. I really like the S2, Triax and Submersive but would think a pair of F25s would be a bigger step up.

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post #134 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Well, let me ask from a different perspective then:
With the choices listed above, which option will make a noticeable improvement over my current Sub 25 at the lowest price point? I.E - which is the most "affordable" upgrade over my Sub 25?

I'm just making sure I am not going through all this research, resale of my Sub 25, and addition of extra money into my budget all for minimal (or no) gain over what I already have.....I don't want to pay x amount extra just for a small percentage increase. That's the biggest hurdle to clear in this upgrade, obviously (which is especially hard given most of these subs are ID and I can't order one to try in-home until my Sub 25 is sold, so it's kind of a leap of faith based off educated opinions and tested results).

Okay, if you were asking me which I would get it would come down to two choices and the winner would come down to one thing.

If you were never going to look at another upgrade or within the next year or two I would go with dual FV15HP's, I think bang for buck nothing you listed will touch dual FV15HP is output for 12hz probably up to 80hz.

But on the other hand if you were open to the possibility on adding another high end sub down the road within a year or so i would take advantage of the awesome pre-order pricing and jump on the Triax while it's cheap.

A single Triax will have more output then both a Sub 2, and SubM HP. It would be really close to a Cap S2, but hard to say if it would have more output. But it would still be at least $500 less then a Cap S2 once you factor in shipping costs. The Triax IMO is a little cooler looking too.
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post #135 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 04:42 PM
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You may not be able to even get the Triax at the pre-order pricing. I spoke to Tom yesterday about adding a second onto my order and this is from part of his email:
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I can only extend this offer until the current pre orders are fulfilled though. At that point, we fully expect to raise pricing a bit.

Also, I cannot say with certainty when the second unit will ship. We have gotten quite a few orders in the last 2-3 weeks and we are very close to having the first production run of Triax drivers completely spoken for at this point.

So if you are trying to decide and you want to go with the Triax, I would recommend emailing Tom today ([email protected]) and asking him or expect to pay more for it very soon.

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post #136 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


If you were never going to look at another upgrade or within the next year or two I would go with dual FV15HP's, I think bang for buck nothing you listed will touch dual FV15HP is output for 12hz probably up to 80hz.

You would recommend the FV15HP's over the F25's? Is that just because of sealed vs. ported preference or because the FV's have more overall output or dig deeper?

And to answer your question, no, I would not be upgrading/adding more subwoofers within the near future. The purchase I would be making now would last me for at least a few years to come, probably indefinitely.
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post #137 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

You would recommend the FV15HP's over the F25's? Is that just because of sealed vs. ported preference or because the FV's have more overall output or dig deeper?

And to answer your question, no, I would not be upgrading/adding more subwoofers within the near future. The purchase I would be making now would last me for at least a few years to come, probably indefinitely.

If you had no plans on adding a second sub down the road I would probably not get a single Triax then.

You said it was going to be for movies use only, so I would think in single port mode a FV15HP would still have more output then a F25 down to 12hz up to 50hz, above 50hz I would suspect that the F25 would have more output.

If you have the budget for it I would suggest contacting Mark at Seaton and talk to him about either a SubM HP or SubM F2 with the master/ slave combo setup. I think that would be a great setup for about 4 grand.

Give the choice of the Seaton master/ slave setup or dual FV15HP's and budget wasn't a concern I would go with the Seaton's. I just think they are a step up of the Rythmik subs.
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post #138 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

If you had no plans on adding a second sub down the road I would probably not get a single Triax then.

You said it was going to be for movies use only, so I would think in single port mode a FV15HP would still have more output then a F25 down to 12hz up to 50hz, above 50hz I would suspect that the F25 would have more output.

If you have the budget for it I would suggest contacting Mark at Seaton and talk to him about either a SubM HP or SubM F2 with the master/ slave combo setup. I think that would be a great setup for about 4 grand.

Give the choice of the Seaton master/ slave setup or dual FV15HP's and budget wasn't a concern I would go with the Seaton's. I just think they are a step up of the Rythmik subs.

Rythmik claims the FV15HP only has a 1db advantage at 20hz. The F25 has twice the displacement and 25% more power...that should make up for 4-5db of the FV15's port tune advantage.

Its The same principle when you compare the PSA XV15 and XS30. Being the XS30 has twice the displacement and 25% more power, it can make up for all but .5db of the XV15's port tune advantage.
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post #139 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Rythmik claims the FV15HP only has a 1db advantage at 20hz. The F25 has twice the displacement and 25% more power...that should make up for 4-5db of the FV15's port tune advantage.

Its The same principle when you compare the PSA XV15 and XS30. Being the XS30 has twice the displacement and 25% more power, it can make up for all but .5db of the XV15's port tune advantage.

AHHH. lol. So which one should I go with? You guys keep making this hard even when I have it almost nailed down to a choice......
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post #140 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, the only reason why the SUB 2 is an option @ $4000 is because I have an unused GE Financial Account for 2yrs Same as Cash at my Paradigm retailer. Any of the other options is cash out of pocket, which means my max budget can only be $3000 in those instances (hence, no chance for dual Seatons and even the Triax at the upcoming normal price after pre-orders would not be doable).
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post #141 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 07:48 PM
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DUAL F25's !!!!!!!!

They will give you solid extension down into the single digits...and with your room, more then likely you will get solid room gain to lift the bottom end and make use of that deep extension.
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post #142 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

DUAL F25's !!!!!!!!

They will give you solid extension down into the single digits...and with your room, more then likely you will get solid room gain to lift the bottom end and make use of that deep extension.

Sounds good to me, especially since Rythmik is out of stock on the Black Oak finish until end of October at least.

Lastly, now that I have it narrowed down to an ID subwoofer (well, duals).....I have to ask:
SUB 2 vs. Dual F25's - Will the SUB 2 have ANY type of noticeable advantage over the dual F25's?

Hey, I am very thorough in my buying process. lol.

Thanks!
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post #143 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 08:18 PM
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From the data I have seen I would say no. Dual F25's will leave you gasping for breath. Those are the subs I would have bought, but Rythmik was not shipping them at the time I was shopping for subs.
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post #144 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 08:21 PM
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Based on 2m ground plan measurements published by Audioholics one FV15HP got 107.5dB @20Hz and the Sub2 got 106.4dB at 20Hz. According to Rythmik the FV15HP's advantage over the F25 at 20Hz is 1dB (F25 would have advantage lower down and higher up). As such one could deduce that one F25 should be equal in output to one Sub2 and obviously two F25s should smash one Sub2.
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post #145 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

From the data I have seen I would say no. Dual F25's will leave you gasping for breath. Those are the subs I would have bought, but Rythmik was not shipping them at the time I was shopping for subs.
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Based on 2m ground plan measurements published by Audioholics one FV15HP got 107.5dB @20Hz and the Sub2 got 106.4dB at 20Hz. According to Rythmik the FV15HP's advantage over the F25 at 20Hz is 1dB (F25 would have advantage lower down and higher up). As such one could deduce that one F25 should be equal in output to one Sub2 and obviously two F25s should smash one Sub2.

Decision made then. And perfect timing too, as I have a payment pending on my Sub 25 already.
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post #146 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 10:07 PM
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I'm a bit late to the party, but after reading the entire thread I was going to vote for the dual F25s, so I think you made the right choice. I've been a fan of servo subs for a long time...nothing I've heard matches the accuracy and "tight" sound of good sealed servo sub. Since this is a movie only system that might not matter as much, but it can't hurt. It takes some people a little time to get used to the servo sound...you'll hear the explosions and deep bass hits as a BOOM instead of a BOOOOOOM. (although you are coming from a high quality system, so that will probably be less of an issue for you). Congrats on the new subs, and be sure to post back with your impressions after you get them set up.
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post #147 of 168 Old 09-29-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post


Decision made then. And perfect timing too, as I have a payment pending on my Sub 25 already.

Both the F25 and FV15HP are great subs, you really couldn't of gone wrong with either choice. If the F25 had been available when I ordered my subs I could of very well ended up with dual F25's too.
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post #148 of 168 Old 09-30-2013, 08:25 AM
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What about the difference in the F25's DS1501 woofers verses the F15HP's DS1510 one?

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post #149 of 168 Old 09-30-2013, 10:09 AM
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I thought the current F25 that has the 800watt amp has the upgraded drivers? Aside from that I thought Brian said the difference is minimal anyway?
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post #150 of 168 Old 09-30-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I thought the current F25 that has the 800watt amp has the upgraded drivers? Aside from that I thought Brian said the difference is minimal anyway?

"The standard amplifier of F25 is H800XLR3. It has two Hypex 400WRMS power amplifier modules in one heat sink so that each module independently drive one driver with servo control."
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