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post #121 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tanbyte View Post

Did u run auddessey? How was the frequency sweep sound on the sub?

I am kind of in the same boat and a bit confused as to what could be wrong. To start with, the auddyssey calibration frequency sweep on the sub just doesnt sound right (the usual thud/door knock sound, its more high frequency, with a bassy sound). I'm also using LFE in. Due to this i cant say i have the perfectly calibrated sub levels.

I don't use Audyssey. As regards subwoofer sound during audyssey calibration, that's specific to the brand of AVR you are using. Some AVRs use thuds, some use 40-80Hz band limited pink noise, some use white noise. Mine uses -40dBFS band limited white noise for the sub channel. So, I set my sub to 67-68dB, which is actually 10dB louder than what the meter shows while setting the level.

In a nutshell, all my system is level matched to 75dB with the sub just 2-3dB louder than the speakers. But it just doesn't sound right. This comes from comparing with 2 other subs in the same spot with all things equal. I hope it's the faulty LFE input and not the actual sonic signature of this sub.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #122 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Do either of you guys have graphs you can post? confused.gif
+1.

I haven't been following this thread closely, but if you haven't plotted your response, then you're just guessing. Do you know what your response looks like?
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post #123 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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That's 14Hz / 2 Ports Open / Rumble filter off / LFE Input / Low Damping. Im not worried about 50-100Hz suck out. That is taken care of with another sub placed elsewhere in the room. The problem area is 40Hz and below where SQ is bad. It is just not accurate down low. The fluttering problem is with LFE input only. The driver just seems to hit the brick wall. The bass down low is not fluid and effortless.




All the subs, I have, have the same response in that spot, however, FV goes lower and louder. But SQ is far from satisfactory. Now this is comparing this sub with others with all other variables kept the same.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #124 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 04:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

But it just doesn't sound right. This comes from comparing with 2 other subs in the same spot with all things equal. I hope it's the faulty LFE input and not the actual sonic signature of this sub.

Based on your graph, it makes sense as your mid-bass, from 50Hz to 100Hz, needs serious attention and it could be that you're over-driving the <50Hz by 20dB and that would definitely be straining the subwoofer's amplifier.

(the short version, based on the posted graph, that EQ job needs serious attention to detail)
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post #125 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 08:29 PM
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I used to own the svs pb-12 Nsd/2 as well as the pb12-plus. I had a similar sound out of my subs as shown in bravehearts clips. The thing that we have in common is the Cambridge audio azur 751r receiver. I was sent out a new amp and a new driver from svs that didn't fix the bottoming out type distorted sound. Svs was great by the way with service. I ended up thinking the subs were at their limits and that is just what they did.

Looking back now I don't seem to think the subs made this sound when hooked up to my anthem mrx-700 or onkyo 5010 which I had before the Cambridge. Could the output level or the signal out of the 751r be causing this in any way when at higher levels? An anomaly with the odd 751r? I thought it could have been something with the receiver so am buying an Anthem MRX-510 now with 2- JL E112's and KEF R500/R600C speakers.

I am far from being any kind of expert with this and should have done more troubleshooting but have since sold all of the equipment so won't ever know. No complaints from the new owners so seem to be fine for them. Just a shot in the dark on this problem at best. Just thought it was strange that he has the same receiver is all.
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post #126 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Based on your graph, it makes sense as your mid-bass, from 50Hz to 100Hz, needs serious attention and it could be that you're over-driving the <50Hz by 20dB and that would definitely be straining the subwoofer's amplifier.

If playing 20dB below the reference volume and sub being just 2-3dB hotter means pushing the sub hard, I think I better watch movies on CRT TV and forget about HT. Like I said before, it's only the LFE input causing the driver to flutter but only in the ULF and sub sonic region. All things equal, no fluttering occurs when Line level input is used even when volume is pushed at crazy loud levels with sub 8dB hotter than mains.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #127 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 11:08 PM
 
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Allow me to encourage working on the graph. Today I played the FOTP and during the barrel roll, with two FV15HPs banging away, measured 110.2dB. In your case, the graph tells me, by a large amount, the left side of the graph is out of calibration with the right side of the graph and in my opinion, yes, that type of disparity in EQ'g will make a difference in subwoofer performance.

Yes, your Amp can be all messed up so please don't think that I'm missing the possibility of the Amp being messed up.

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post #128 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I hear you Bee biggrin.gif

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #129 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 11:11 PM
 
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How much longer before you rotate back to the States? IIRC, it should be any day now.
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post #130 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommmyJ View Post

I used to own the svs pb-12 Nsd/2 as well as the pb12-plus. I had a similar sound out of my subs as shown in bravehearts clips. The thing that we have in common is the Cambridge audio azur 751r receiver. I was sent out a new amp and a new driver from svs that didn't fix the bottoming out type distorted sound. Svs was great by the way with service. I ended up thinking the subs were at their limits and that is just what they did.

Looking back now I don't seem to think the subs made this sound when hooked up to my anthem mrx-700 or onkyo 5010 which I had before the Cambridge. Could the output level or the signal out of the 751r be causing this in any way when at higher levels? An anomaly with the odd 751r? I thought it could have been something with the receiver so am buying an Anthem MRX-510 now with 2- JL E112's and KEF R500/R600C speakers.

I am far from being any kind of expert with this and should have done more troubleshooting but have since sold all of the equipment so won't ever know. No complaints from the new owners so seem to be fine for them. Just a shot in the dark on this problem at best. Just thought it was strange that he has the same receiver is all.

In case you didn't know Tommy, CA 751R has the subwoofer internal test tone recorded at -40dBFS (65dB); rest all the test tones for speakers are recorded at -30dBFS (75dB). So, if you level matched all the speakers to 75dB and kept sub at 77-78dB, you actually were driving your subs 13dB hotter than mains during playback. Add another 10dB for LFE and you ran your subs 23dB hotter during actual playback. I'm sure you must have overloaded the amps on your subs and caused the driver to flutter.

I calibrate my subs to 67-68dB using internal test tone for subwoofer, which is 7-8dB lower than mains when you set the levels using internal white noise. In reality it is 2-3dB hotter (77-78dB) coz the internal test tone (white noise) for only the subwoofer channel is recorded 10dB quieter (65dB) than the same for the rest of the speakers (75dB). I think you didn't know this before you sold your CA.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #131 of 249 Old 01-14-2014, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I don't use Audyssey. As regards subwoofer sound during audyssey calibration, that's specific to the brand of AVR you are using. Some AVRs use thuds, some use 40-80Hz band limited pink noise, some use white noise. Mine uses -40dBFS band limited white noise for the sub channel. So, I set my sub to 67-68dB, which is actually 10dB louder than what the meter shows while setting the level.

In a nutshell, all my system is level matched to 75dB with the sub just 2-3dB louder than the speakers. But it just doesn't sound right. This comes from comparing with 2 other subs in the same spot with all things equal. I hope it's the faulty LFE input and not the actual sonic signature of this sub.

Good to know info, though my avr is the same (denon 791), and only sub changed. With my previous sub (hsu), i had the thud sound with the same avr,

By flutter do u mean like port chuffing sound? Is there any material I could use to test my sub in a similar manner?

@BeeMan, sorry dont have charts right now, and neither the equipment to measure, but looks like i'll have to get those and take some measurements (if that helps).
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post #132 of 249 Old 01-14-2014, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
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By flutter do u mean like port chuffing sound? Is there any material I could use to test my sub in a similar manner?

Use 20hz/40hz extension and 2 ports open / rumble filter on / low damping / LFE input.

Play the grenade explosion scene WWZ at -10 from reference using LFE input. Also, at the very end of The Conjuring just before the actors and crew listing scroll down begins, there is a very loud LFE thud. That thud is right after the dialogues "The Vatican has approved the Exorcism" and the guy says "Nice Timing!!" and then the girl continues "And if we can, he'd like to meet with us tomorrow". After this the door slams, there is a loud LFE thud there, and after about 20 sec there is another extremely loud LFE.

I haven't watched complete movie on this sub, but these are some of my reference scenes for checking a sub.

At both these instances the driver flutters badly. It seems like the cone is hitting the magnet followed by free air movement of the cone. This is only with LFE input. No such cone behavior when the Line level input is used keeping all other things equal. And also, this doesn't happen with my other subs.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #133 of 249 Old 01-14-2014, 04:23 AM
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Thanks for explaining that. I didn't know to set it as you have explained. I guess that's why I am better off using an automatic setup as I don't know enough about it. Good to know what really was going on/causing the issue for me.

I was selling all my gear anyway so didn't sell everything because of the sub issue. I think I preferred the Anthem to the Cambridge. I am also going to use a parasound a23 to help drive the fronts.

Thanks
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post #134 of 249 Old 01-14-2014, 04:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tanbyte View Post

@BeeMan, sorry dont have charts right now, and neither the equipment to measure, but looks like i'll have to get those and take some measurements (if that helps).

You can download and install a freeware copy of REW as a form of encouragement. Without some form of room measuring capability, the best one can do, is expect to fly blind.
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post #135 of 249 Old 01-14-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Use 20hz/40hz extension and 2 ports open / rumble filter on / low damping / LFE input.

Play the grenade explosion scene WWZ at -10 from reference using LFE input. Also, at the very end of The Conjuring just before the actors and crew listing scroll down begins, there is a very loud LFE thud. That thud is right after the dialogues "The Vatican has approved the Exorcism" and the guy says "Nice Timing!!" and then the girl continues "And if we can, he'd like to meet with us tomorrow". After this the door slams, there is a loud LFE thud there, and after about 20 sec there is another extremely loud LFE.

I haven't watched complete movie on this sub, but these are some of my reference scenes for checking a sub.

At both these instances the driver flutters badly. It seems like the cone is hitting the magnet followed by free air movement of the cone. This is only with LFE input. No such cone behavior when the Line level input is used keeping all other things equal. And also, this doesn't happen with my other subs.

Great, i'll probably give a shot to some of these over the weekend.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You can download and install a freeware copy of REW as a form of encouragement. Without some form of room measuring capability, the best one can do, is expect to fly blind.

Yep, i'll try that. Thanks
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post #136 of 249 Old 01-15-2014, 12:11 AM
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Btw, do i need a special mic for REW? Or Will the auddyssey mic work?
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post #137 of 249 Old 01-15-2014, 12:14 AM
 
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Yes, a special measuring microphone. If you have a USB port on a laptop, this will get you where you want to go.
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post #138 of 249 Old 01-15-2014, 01:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tanbyte View Post

Btw, do i need a special mic for REW? Or Will the auddyssey mic work?

The Audyssey mic may work, but it takes a good PC style mic input, and not a pro audio mic input we usually use with mics like the Behringer ECM 8000. I've done some testing and found that the mic inputs on some laptops can throw you a curve - don't have flat response at all.

If you don't want to become a mic expert, a USB measurement mics could be a good choice:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808

http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-UMM-6-Measurement-Microphone/dp/B00ADR2E68/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389777661

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post #139 of 249 Old 01-15-2014, 07:56 AM
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If you don't want to become a mic expert, a USB measurement mics could be a good choice:

rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #140 of 249 Old 01-15-2014, 08:32 PM
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Jealous Steveeeeeee? We understand.................USB mics wont work with your sub shown below....................wink.gif




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post #141 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 03:11 AM
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Jealous Steveeeeeee? We understand.................USB mics wont work with your sub shown below....................wink.gif




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LOL Dangit! What’s left of my rep is totally shot now. How did you know?
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post #142 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just getting bored and thought to do something different with whatever I have at hand right now. Coz of the LFE input problem with FV15HP, I'm bound to use Line level input.but wasn't willing to forego the LFE content between 80Hz and 120Hz. So, I thought lets integrate FV with my DIY Alpine that runs off iNuke 6000 DSP. I thought what the hell; let's integrate BFD also that collected dust in my store room.

Here is the final result integrating two disparate subs;

Red is raw, green is eq'd. Alpine is high passed at 45Hz (2nd order HPF) and Rythmik is set to 50Hz/24dB on-board LPF with line level input. Overall avr is doing the bass management with 80Hz crossover. Transition between the two is excellent and listening is great too. Just a single null at 70Hz, but I guess I can live with it for now.







Just wanted to keep myself busy till I get the replacement amp.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #143 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 10:13 AM
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^^ look almost like a ruler with exception of that 70hz dip. Perhaps you can try to use the peq to boost it?
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Sweet. Congratulations.
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post #145 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ look almost like a ruler with exception of that 70hz dip. Perhaps you can try to use the peq to boost it?

Boosting beyond 3dB is bad. And 70Hz is a null, any boost there wastes amp power, causes ringing, and will screw the sound.
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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #146 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 10:39 AM
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^^ I see. How about tweaking subs distances? By the way, how do you know if it is a null vs a dip in response?
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post #147 of 249 Old 01-16-2014, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh that's in my bedroom and um stuck with placement options coz of the bed, side tables, a dressing table, and a sofa also eek.gif. This is pretty much it.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #148 of 249 Old 01-18-2014, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Received the replacement amp yesterday. Swapping it was a straight forward affair. Haven't really put FV through paces yet; but initial impressions suggest the amp is fine now. Will update when um done fully dialing it in.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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post #149 of 249 Old 01-18-2014, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Received the replacement amp yesterday. Swapping it was a straight forward affair. Haven't really put FV through paces yet; but initial impressions suggest the amp is fine now. Will update when um done fully dialing it in.

Looking forward to the update....
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post #150 of 249 Old 01-18-2014, 05:24 AM
 
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For your benefit, our fingers are crossed.
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