Dual SVS PB13-ULTRA or Dual Seaton Submersive (Slave) or Dual Rythmik FV15HP - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: What dual sub solution would you recommend for this 16 X 27 X 9 room?
Dual SVS PB13-ULTRA's 24 21.43%
DUAL Seaton Submersive HP+ (Master/Slave) 43 38.39%
DUAL Seaton Submersive F2+ (Master/Slave) 18 16.07%
Dual Rhythmik FV15HP 27 24.11%
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post #31 of 200 Old 11-20-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post

Nube is tempting me with this post. How would one of these AIY cabinets with the Stereo Integrity 18" driver and a good amp stand up against a Rhythmik FV15HP? What amps would be recommended for driving 4 of these?

It takes basically 2 SI 18's to equal 1 FV15HP in the 12-20hz range.
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post #32 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 12:09 AM
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Design choice/alignment always plays a big factor regarding DIY or ID. While sealed has it’s positives so does vented. Deciding what route to take will always come down to what is most important to the OP. If you’re considering vented in the ID arena, you might want to consider vented in the DIY arena albeit more complicated.. the thinking has been done for you regarding that option also though. You can always elect to go with other more substantial drivers but that’s a different subject. Anyway you can see the difference between vented (like the HP) and sealed with the SI no dsp or shaping. You can also see sealed with shaping will exceed even a very low tuned LLT. Both are great options as they are in ID, but you have to be sure to address your response to the left with some form of dsp with sealed to emulate the response of vented beyond room gain imo. Sealed is not reinforced/aided by the vent down low, it’s Xmax to a largeish degree.



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post #33 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


It takes basically 2 SI 18's to equal 1 FV15HP in the 12-20hz range.

What makes the FV15HP perform so much better than the larger SI 18? Is it just superior driver design, a better designed cabinet, both? This comes back to what was going through my mind earlier. It seems that the companies like JTR, Seaton, Rhythmik have figured out some magic formula that I wouldn't be able to match with DIY/AIY. It sounds like the only way to match them is to increase quantities. Otherwise, it seems that there would be kits to basically build your own Captivator S2, Submersive HP+, Rhythmic FV15HP. As I type this, I wondering if someone is going to reply with...those kits do exist...they are x, y, z. My guess is that if they do exist, they will cost almost as much as the real thing. I see a bunch of TC Sounds boxes in the background in one of the pictures on the Seaton forum. Are those the drivers used in some of the Seaton products?

 

 


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post #34 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:32 AM
 
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One point, when going DIY/AIY, the individual won't get "Direct Servo Technology" with any of the amplifiers that one has at their disposal. As to the cost of an AIY unit, the cost, when compared to a FV15HP, will be dependent on the quality of the assembled parts; how crazy is one willing to get?

I know the above doesn't directly answer you question but I don't know if there are direct answers as in the end, everything is a compromise.

Price/performance, the Seaton and Funk were outside our multiple subwoofer budget. Price performance, the Ultra is outside our multiple subwoofer budget. Price/performance, the FV15HP fits our multiple subwoofer budget.

In my opinion, not trying to be harsh or antagonistic, your questions don't well define what you're wanting to know other than being curiosity questions. What's up?

(being of a simple mind, if the "Direct Servo Technology" equipped FV15HPs give a SI rating of 1.9 at 12.5Hz, who am I to wonder why?)
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post #35 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:39 AM
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Refer back to Dominguez post and read his ULF thread. As I previously stated, In larger rooms ported subs work better because of thier advantage they have around the port tune. Sealed subs work better in smaller rooms so they can make use of the thing called "Room Gain", which is basically free or additional output that the room adds to the subwoofer in the lower frequencies. If you take 2 similar subs, lets say the F15HP(sealed) and FV15HP(ported), the ported will have a 6-8db advantage around its tuning point. Now were only talking about a narrow frequency range here. The F15HP will have similar output above 30hz. Also sealed subs have no tuning point so they will extend much deeper then ported. However the FV15HP is about the one and only ported commercial subs that will have alot of Output down to 12hz and useable extension to 9-10hz. Its one helluva a sub and if I had known 8mo ago what I know now, I would have 3 of these in my room.

As Beeman would say, Its all about the Benjamins and how much of them you have to address the situation at hand.
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post #36 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In my opinion, not trying to be harsh or antagonistic, your questions don't well define what you're wanting to know other than being curiosity questions. What's up?

(being of a simple mind, if the "Direct Servo Technology" equipped FV15HPs give a SI rating of 1.9 at 12.5Hz, who am I to wonder why?)

Beeman, I appreciate the input. My goal is to get the best product for the the dollar to provide quality sound in my future 27 X 16 X 9 room.  If I can do a little work and save myself a lot money, I'm all for it. If AIY kits exist that would allow me to get the same quality as an expensive manufactured sub, I'm all for it. Also, I just like to know how and why things work the way they do. Is there anything wrong with curiosity questions? In my opinion, curiosity questions are the sparks that lead you to a higher level of knowledge and understanding. Isn't that the purpose of this forum?


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post #37 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:08 AM
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What makes the FV15HP perform so much better than the larger SI 18?

The graph I posted shows you it’s basically a alignment issue. Same SI driver in 3 cf sealed, 4cf sealed and in vented.

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post #38 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post

Also, I just like to know how and why things work the way they do. Is there anything wrong with curiosity questions? In my opinion, curiosity questions are the sparks that lead you to a higher level of knowledge and understanding. Isn't that the purpose of this forum?

I'm the simple mind here, not you. If someone wants to bend their mind worrying about why something works the way it does, that's their distraction and I'm all for them doing so. I'm trying to find out what you're wanting to know that will help you with your quest, finding out what the best subwoofer will be for your budget. The best forum to learn how all things that are subwoofers work, would be the DIY forum as that's what those guys are all about.

How things work and which is the best choice for a particular room or set of intrinsic parameters, are two different disciplines. I'm trying to sort out the confusion that mixing the two disciplines, cause.
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post #39 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm the simple mind here, not you. If someone wants to bend their mind worrying about why something works the way it does, that's their distraction and I'm all for them doing so. I'm trying to find out what you're wanting to know that will help you with your quest, finding out what the best subwoofer will be for your budget. The best forum to learn how all things that are subwoofers work, would be the DIY forum as that's what those guys are all about.

How things work and which is the best choice for a particular room or set of intrinsic parameters, are two different disciplines. I'm trying to sort out the confusion that mixing the two disciplines, cause.

I understand...and appreciate your input. Some of the posters indicated that AIY would be a good option for me....so I'm just exploring that option. I should probably start a new thread in the DIY forum to dig deeper into this.


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post #40 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post

I understand...and appreciate your input. Some of the posters indicated that AIY would be a good option for me....so I'm just exploring that option. I should probably start a new thread in the DIY forum to dig deeper into this.

DIY will allow you to do more with less. However before we go any farther what is your budget? How many subs can you put into your theatre?? I noticed you did not respond to my last post, did none of it make sense? This forum will make your head spin...smile.gif
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post #41 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Refer back to Dominguez post and read his ULF thread. As I previously stated, In larger rooms ported subs work better because of thier advantage they have around the port tune. Sealed subs work better in smaller rooms so they can make use of the thing called "Room Gain", which is basically free or additional output that the room adds to the subwoofer in the lower frequencies.

IMO, it's just not that simple. Volume of the space does matter, but so does construction, layout, shape, etc.

My space is about 8000 cu ft. Here is a single submersive with no eq.



Here is a pair with just XT32.



Neither are max output but are when 5hz started to compress. 10hz and above had more headroom.

Take a look at these threads showing the different rolloffs of sealed vs ported in the same room.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread#post_22512892

I recently found my speclab captures from this event which I thought I had lost. Look for some interesting real world comparisons including the FV15hp and F15 soon.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012#post_21492270
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If you take 2 similar subs, lets say the F15HP(sealed) and FV15HP(ported), the ported will have a 6-8db advantage around its tuning point. Now were only talking about a narrow frequency range here. The F15HP will have similar output above 30hz. Also sealed subs have no tuning point so they will extend much deeper then ported. However the FV15HP is about the one and only ported commercial subs that will have alot of Output down to 12hz and useable extension to 9-10hz. Its one helluva a sub and if I had known 8mo ago what I know now, I would have 3 of these in my room.

As Beeman would say, Its all about the Benjamins and how much of them you have to address the situation at hand.

No matter what the CEA numbers are, don't forget the FV15hp still has a steep filter at around 15hz, so depending on the room and placement you may need external EQ to use that max output at 12hz or below. The HSU VTF15 doesn't match your idea of significant output down to 12hz? It has less output than the Rythmik, but is $400 cheaper and has a similar CEA profile and max output FR. There is more to a sub's performance than just the CEA numbers. Look at the max sweeps, compression magnitude, THD graphs, etc. They all add information to describe the overall performance and design decisions of the sub.

To the OP, if you already have a sub or can borrow one, I would first purchase or borrow a measurement mic. Depending on where you are located, there may be a forum member willing to help. Measure your room and the potential sub locations. This will give you an idea of how the future subs will act in your room. Also, see if you can demo a couple different sub setups. Check here. This may give you an idea on how much output and extension you will want. It's already been mentioned, but call each company you are interested in. (Rythmik, SVS, JTR, Seaton, etc.) Discuss your current and possible future plans, your current and future goals, etc. Ask lots of questions. Just talking to some of the companies may help your decision.
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post #42 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:54 AM
 
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Not being an expert on anything subwoofer related, my recommendation regarding AIY, get the biggest, baddest, subwoofer driver with the greatest Xmax you can afford and go from there.

I'm not a DIY/AIY type. I worked construction in my professional life and want nothing to do with anything creative. I want to buy it, install it and be done with it. This is posted so you understand my mindset. I'll leave others to help you explore the DIY/AIY option.

Have you explored the ULF thread? The first two posts in the thread will give you a comparative idea as to various subwoofer system choices and by adding budgetary constraints (intrinsic details) into the equation, one can easily choose what will work the best for them. For one to make a choice as to what will work the best for them, they have to answer intrinsic questions that, as pointed out by basshead81, revolve around budget, WAF, room decor and what their ultimate goals are. Have you answered any intrinsic related questions?
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post #43 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


DIY will allow you to do more with less. However before we go any farther what is your budget? How many subs can you put into your theatre?? I noticed you did not respond to my last post, did none of it make sense? This forum will make your head spin...smile.gif

Yes, that is something that I will have to look at and try to digest slowly....My initial budget for subs was $3500 to $4000. That budget was generated based on prices for two of some of the subs that I was considering. It was basically....if I want quality, this is around how much I will have to spend.  If I can get great sound for much less....that would be awesome.:)


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Yes, that is something that I will have to look at and try to digest slowly....My initial budget for subs was $3500 to $4000. That budget was generated based on prices for two of some of the subs that I was considering. It was basically....if I want quality, this is around how much I will have to spend.  If I can get great sound for much less....that would be awesome.smile.gif

With the above in mind, start with two FV15HPs with an eye on a third. Two, delivered would be $2,574.00. Give Rythmik a call to see what the price would be on three delivered FV15HPs. The website lists three delivered, at $3,859.00. Both choices are within your above stated budget.

And if you every read "Animal Farm", I clearly remember Napoleon changing the rules on the side of the barn to read: "Three FV15HPs are better than two."

(Yep, I read it)
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post #45 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 09:15 AM
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Wow, this thread has been a beehive of activity since last I checked it.

 

Romans is your head starting to spin yet? After reading through everything that has been posted I can imagine it's getting difficult keeping your options straight. Personally I voted for the dual Rythmik FV15HPs just based on the little bit I knew about them. Since then this thread has been a great education on all sorts of subjects relating to subwoofers, from AiIY to high end companies. I personally am learning a ton and have changed my mind about ten times as to what I would do if I were in your shoes, everything looks good.

 

But after reading everything I think I'm still in favor of going with the Rythmiks based on your budget and seeing on how if you do go AIY or DIY you will have to make a lot of decisions and compromises etc and then you may end up questioning yourself every step of the way as well. The Rythmiks seem to offer you a good system at a price within your budget. The Seatons and Caps sound fantastic but they cost a lot. I would worry about what if I get two in my home and feel I need to add another? With the Rythmik you could add that third sub and still hit your budget.

 

This brings up a question for basshead or some other guys in the know, seeing the ULF scores posted by dominguez do you guys think a third Rythmik is needed? The dual set up seemed to yield a 4 star score. The three Rythmik setup had a 4.5 star score. I imagine there's more to this than that but I was curious on how you guys are viewing it.

 

Finally, in my emails with PSA and SVS they both said the same thing regarding basshead's post on the ported subs working better in larger rooms and sealed subs working better in smaller rooms. Am I correct in assuming you could go the sealed sub route in a large room but you would have to use more of them to get the same output? 


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post #46 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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With the above in mind, start with two FV15HPs with an eye on a third. Two, delivered would be $2,574.00. Give Rythmik a call to see what the price would be on three delivered FV15HPs. The website lists three delivered, at $3,859.00. Both choices are within your above stated budget.

And if you every read "Animal Farm", I clearly remember Napoleon changing the rules on the side of the barn to read: "Three FV15HPs are better than two."

(Yep, I read it)

Rythmik said that they offer a 10% discount on multiples. The odd number (3) would seem to cause a design issue for me. I will need to hide the rears in a column or wall extension.  I would kind of hate to design the room for three....two front and one in the center rear. I would likely design the room for 4...one in each corner. Three would seem to leave the room unbalanced. I may be completely wrong on that.  I will probably end up going with two...or breaking my budget and going with 4. I'm also still considering the 4 AIY's too. Thanks again for all of your input!


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This brings up a question for basshead or some other guys in the know, seeing the ULF scores posted by dominguez do you guys think a third Rythmik is needed? The dual set up seemed to yield a 4 star score. The three Rythmik setup had a 4.5 star score. I imagine there's more to this than that but I was curious on how you guys are viewing it.

In short, in my opinion, the above will depend on the cubic footage of the room and what the individual's expectation are regarding reference level playback and how low they wish to see reference level performance. There's also intrinsic details such as adjacent rooms, size of main listening room openings to other spaces, WAF and room aesthetics. Just saying, as I'm sure you know, sometimes one needs a third or forth subwoofer to smooth out room response, which has nothing to do with playing it louder.

Placing a subwoofer nearfield goes a long way in correcting for a multitude of sonic sins, but, stating the obvious, not everybody can place their subwoofers nearfield.

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If you want four subs beside AIY, consider the PSA XV15's for well below your budget. I am surprise the Rythmik leads the poll, I would think the SubM would be.
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post #49 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Finally, in my emails with PSA and SVS they both said the same thing regarding basshead's post on the ported subs working better in larger rooms and sealed subs working better in smaller rooms. Am I correct in assuming you could go the sealed sub route in a large room but you would have to use more of them to get the same output? 

That appears to the case based on some of the posts...or go with JTR Captivators....


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post #50 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like the diysoundgroup site only has ported flat packs for 12 inch woofers. I don't see options for ported 15 or 18 inch woofers.

 

 http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/ported-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-ported-sub-flat-pack.html


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post #51 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 01:35 PM
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If you would like to compare a sealed SI HT18 vs a ported FV15HP go to this page...
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=90&mset=97
and select Rythmik FV15HP (1 or 2 port) under the "System Measurement Comparison" dropbox.

You can see how easy it is to compare the max output of various systems. using this chart it is clear that the FV15HP has an advantage down around its tuning frequency and the SI HT18 has an advantage higher-up. With the Rythmik in 1 port mode they are very similar around 25-40Hz. It should also be noted that room gain will make these curves much flatter down the bottom. Large sealed subs are quite popular with the DIY crowd because they can get so low (frequencies under what most ported subs are tuned to), but the value of <10Hz is a matter of vigorous debate.

Amps which are popular for use with four SI HT18s are the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 (massive, heavy and robust) and the Peavey IPR2 7500 (lightweight modern tech amp). Note that either of these options really needs a fan mod if located in your listening space.
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post #52 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 04:36 PM
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The thing is you can run three more SI’s off the amp at a cost of about $330 a 18” passive SW.. cheaper if you build it yourself. Turnkey is definitely the easiest route though.

EDIT> https://www.avsforum.com/t/1500188/4x-si-18-d4s-in-16cuft-sonos-tuned-to-16hz#post_23980355

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post #53 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:06 PM
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The thing is you can run three more SI’s off the amp at a cost of about $330 a 18” passive SW.. cheaper if you build it yourself. Turnkey is definitely the easiest route though.

You guys make great cases for the DIY path but I agree the idea of turnkey is the easiest route especially if you are talking about making three or four subs going the DIY route. It also seems to me that the FV15HP does just as well as the DIY options (I could be wrong but they seem to be pretty even).

 

Romans, just out of curiosity, where are you in your thoughts? Are you leaning towards the DIY or are you thinking of going multiples with a particular subwoofer?


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post #54 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

You guys make great cases for the DIY path but I agree the idea of turnkey is the easiest route especially if you are talking about making three or four subs going the DIY route. It also seems to me that the FV15HP does just as well as the DIY options (I could be wrong but they seem to be pretty even).

Romans, just out of curiosity, where are you in your thoughts? Are you leaning towards the DIY or are you thinking of going multiples with a particular subwoofer?

Four subs is a lot to take on, especially from scratch. I did three at one time and it definitely wasn’t fun. I’m into DIY because I like the build, the hunt and the anticipation. I basically get the same from ID except the build. Anyway I generally don’t talk about DIY over here, or maybe I should say push it. It’s not for everyone and there is much good to say regarding ID companies and their product. ID Co's have their own parameters to work with as each individual DIY’r. Take this example and compare it to the HP for instance. There are many more that don’t make it to the list of course. It is what it is.. ID-DIY, it’s all good for me. For you?.. ID might be your answer cool.gif Usually the DIY crowd is pretty polite when they come over here except for a over exuberant new DIY’r on occasion. They know it’s not for everybody.


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post #55 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 06:51 PM
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Before reading this thread I had never considered DIY, now you guys have me seriously thinking about it. I like to work with my hands and I'm pretty good with wood and what not so suddenly I find myself considering it. Nube shared some great info as well. 


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post #56 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

IMO, it's just not that simple. Volume of the space does matter, but so does construction, layout, shape, etc.

My space is about 8000 cu ft. Here is a single submersive with no eq.



Here is a pair with just XT32.



Neither are max output but are when 5hz started to compress. 10hz and above had more headroom.

Take a look at these threads showing the different rolloffs of sealed vs ported in the same room.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread#post_22512892

I recently found my speclab captures from this event which I thought I had lost. Look for some interesting real world comparisons including the FV15hp and F15 soon.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012#post_21492270
No matter what the CEA numbers are, don't forget the FV15hp still has a steep filter at around 15hz, so depending on the room and placement you may need external EQ to use that max output at 12hz or below. The HSU VTF15 doesn't match your idea of significant output down to 12hz? It has less output than the Rythmik, but is $400 cheaper and has a similar CEA profile and max output FR. There is more to a sub's performance than just the CEA numbers. Look at the max sweeps, compression magnitude, THD graphs, etc. They all add information to describe the overall performance and design decisions of the sub.

To the OP, if you already have a sub or can borrow one, I would first purchase or borrow a measurement mic. Depending on where you are located, there may be a forum member willing to help. Measure your room and the potential sub locations. This will give you an idea of how the future subs will act in your room. Also, see if you can demo a couple different sub setups. Check here. This may give you an idea on how much output and extension you will want. It's already been mentioned, but call each company you are interested in. (Rythmik, SVS, JTR, Seaton, etc.) Discuss your current and possible future plans, your current and future goals, etc. Ask lots of questions. Just talking to some of the companies may help your decision.

I am not looking at CEA2010 numbers solely....were using the ULF thread to make a generalization of what commercial subs will perform better in the OP's room. Single digit extension does not mean much if you are not getting enough output for it to be useful. From what I see your room would do better in the 12-20hz range with a pair of FV15HP's.
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post #57 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 07:47 PM
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Off the ULF thread being discussed, 2/3rds of the 4.5 star up are all diy/aiy for a reason.

My buddy carp's system was ~$3600 using the flat packs. You could do dual 18" in each corner, with bass traps above subs to ceiling in the columns.
https://www.avsforum.com/t/1461175/first-build-octo-si-18s-with-flat-packs

Your largest room dimension is 27 ft, so you should have good gain at 20hz and below since half wavelength of 20hz is 28 ft.

If ported is what you are leaning towards, then the marty subs are pretty cool and seem to be a reasonably easy build.
https://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347

That being said I love the ID subs if doing the work and peaking down the rabbit hole isn't for you. smile.gif

BTW I voted seaton, I think your room is a good candidate for multiple sealed subs. If you plan on the front row middle seat being the mlp, I would move the seats back. That looks to be dead center middle of the room, which is usually not good for bass.
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post #58 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
If you plan on the front row middle seat being the mlp, I would move the seats back. That looks to be dead center middle of the room, which is usually not good for bass.

Indeed! good catch Luke!

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post #59 of 200 Old 11-21-2013, 09:40 PM
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The price for a Rythmic DIY HP with DS1510 driver is $769. The equivalent finished sub (F15HP in black matte) is $1184. So you are paying $415 for a finished sub. You would likely pay about a $100 in materials if you build you own. So is the value added for a completed sub (compared to a kit) worth $300? In my opinion - yes. Especially if you are getting 3-4 of them.
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post #60 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post

The price for a Rythmic DIY HP with DS1510 driver is $769. The equivalent finished sub (F15HP in black matte) is $1184. So you are paying $415 for a finished sub. You would likely pay about a $100 in materials if you build you own. So is the value added for a completed sub (compared to a kit) worth $300? In my opinion - yes. Especially if you are getting 3-4 of them.

Being the devils advocate here> What your essentially doing is buying four feature rich amps and four drivers (a very nice option) DIY’rs would generally opt for four drivers, one/two outboard/s and standalone dsp at a more reduced cost and maybe flat packs if sealed. I’m not sure why some companies regard these offerings as a kit though? If they provided the enclosure or the cut panels to size with plans, I would then call it a kit myself... just sayin. Like you suggest, I would opt for the finished product myself if having to choose between the two buying four subs unless I wanted a custom finish.

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