Dual SVS PB13-ULTRA or Dual Seaton Submersive (Slave) or Dual Rythmik FV15HP - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: What dual sub solution would you recommend for this 16 X 27 X 9 room?
Dual SVS PB13-ULTRA's 24 21.43%
DUAL Seaton Submersive HP+ (Master/Slave) 43 38.39%
DUAL Seaton Submersive F2+ (Master/Slave) 18 16.07%
Dual Rhythmik FV15HP 27 24.11%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 06:08 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Being the devils advocate here>

Well, that's a position you'll never see me playing. tongue.gif
steve nn likes this.
BeeMan458 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Romans828's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Naboo
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

You guys make great cases for the DIY path but I agree the idea of turnkey is the easiest route especially if you are talking about making three or four subs going the DIY route. It also seems to me that the FV15HP does just as well as the DIY options (I could be wrong but they seem to be pretty even).

 

Romans, just out of curiosity, where are you in your thoughts? Are you leaning towards the DIY or are you thinking of going multiples with a particular subwoofer?

I am still up in the air. I may try a small inexpensive project for one of my other TV's to see how DIY or AIY goes. 


JVC RS600 | Dual PSA V3600i | Denon X6300H | Klipsch THX Ultra 2 | CDT-5800-C II Atmos | Oppo UDP-203
Romans828 is offline  
post #63 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 06:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,457
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3246 Post(s)
Liked: 9581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post
 

I am still up in the air. I may try a small inexpensive project for one of my other TV's to see how DIY or AIY goes. 

Funny you should say that, I was going to ask you if you had another room with a system in it where you could kind of "cut your teeth" in the AIY or DIY realm and decide if you liked doing it and if you like the outcome. I think dipping your toe in the water is a petty smart way to approach it. But that's just my opinion. 


Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 06:24 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post

I am still up in the air. I may try a small inexpensive project for one of my other TV's to see how DIY or AIY goes.

Check out Parts-Express.

If you wish, you can customize; buy box, amplifier and driver separately.

I did what Hopinater suggested but with with completed units as opposed to DIY/AIY units. I upgraded the two boxes we already had. Added room measuring capability, Played with room placement. Added an Anti-Mode 8033S II EQ. Added a third subwoofer. Stuffed cabinets with poly-fill. And with a bit more playing around with room placement, will upgrade to better quality turnkey subwoofers.

The point, playing around and learning about it all, is a good thing and well worth the added time, effort and expense. See it as paying for an education.

(the downside, one has to get rid of all the old stuff or store it forever)

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #65 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 06:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
I think dipping your toe in the water is a petty smart way to approach it.

+1

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #66 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 07:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
steve nn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 433
Quote:
I think dipping your toe in the water is a petty smart way to approach it.

Maybe so, I would be selective in the water though or it’s basically a waste of time and you’ll walk away with a bad taste in your mouth and still be thirsty.

Klipsch RB-75
Klipsch C-7
Klipsch RB-35
On-going SW management class
Denon
PS3
steve nn is offline  
post #67 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,457
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3246 Post(s)
Liked: 9581

Good point. Practice in such a way that results in positive useable experience, not frustration and bitterness.

steve nn likes this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #68 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 447
A couple of points.

First, Roman's (the OP's) room isn't big. It's medium-sized, and will almost definitely still see significant room gain. I don't think there's any reason to necessarily prefer ported over sealed, aside from the fact that you likely get more output from ported at and near tuning. Outside of that, it's a crapshoot, with sealed being better down low.

Having said that, I think that if you're going to go with a turnkey solution, go with the two or three Rythmik FV15HP - it's not terribly expensive, but is a pretty bulletproof solution that everyone here can agree you'll be incredibly happy with for many years.

However, you can really, REALLY save a ton of money if you go the AIY route. And, make no mistake - DIY is much more involved than AIY. You really don't have to do hardly anything with AIY flatpacks & kits from Erich at DIY Sound Group. I know it seems daunting up front, but there's really just not much to assembling a pre-made cabinet for your subs.

Let's break it down by cost for 4x of the AIY 18" Stereo Integrity subs, all included:
Code:
4x flatpack AIY cabinets + shipping = $610
4x SI 18" D2 drivers + shipping     = $956
Peavy IPR2 7500 (or similar) + Ship = $800
100ft 12ga cabling + banana plugs   = $45
Terminals/terminal cups             = $15
12 Walmart pillows for stuffing     = $40
Paint + supplies (or Duratex)       = $30
25ft gasket tape                    = $4

Grand total                         = $2500

Compare that to 4x of the FV15HP, and you're looking at about half the price without sacrificing much performance (and likely none that you'd notice)

The same could be said for the speakers, although I bet the savings there are even greater compared to the Klipsch you were looking at. wink.gif

I generally agree that starting with a small AIY project would be great. If you decide to go that route, make sure to get the flatpacks from DIY Sound Group so you support the community. cool.gif
nube is offline  
post #69 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:28 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Compare that to 4x of the FV15HP, and you're looking at about half the price without sacrificing much performance (and likely none that you'd notice)

Just saying, at 1.9 SI, one FV15HP is almost equal to the output of two SI 18s. Shipped, two FV15HPs are $2,574.00 and according to the ULF thread, output 3.8 SI and there's the added benefit of "Direct Servo Technology." Also, there's the benefit of a warranty that doesn't require one to get their fingers dirty with all that yucky assembly work. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

-
Kini62 likes this.
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #70 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Compare that to 4x of the FV15HP, and you're looking at about half the price without sacrificing much performance (and likely none that you'd notice)

Just saying, at 1.9 SI, one FV15HP is almost equal to the output of two SI 18s. Shipped, two FV15HPs are $2,574.00 and according to the ULF thread, output 3.8 SI and there's the added benefit of "Direct Servo Technology." Also there's the benefit of a warranty that doesn't require you to get your fingers dirty with all that yucky assembly work. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

As dominguez said previously, that's a rough guesstimate and it's a mere guide. In the case of the FV15HP, it's based on the output from a very narrow (yet important) frequency range. Keep that in mind.

I honestly don't think the FV15HP is legit equal to almost 2 SI 18s, no way no how, if you consider the entire LFE bandwidth from 3-120Hz. It's a great sub by all accounts, but saying it's equal to two medium high xmax, quality 18" sealed subs is a real stretch that I'm not willing to accept as fact. The FV15HP simply isn't magic.
nube is offline  
post #71 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:55 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

As dominguez said previously, that's a rough guesstimate and it's a mere guide. In the case of the FV15HP, it's based on the output from a very narrow (yet important) frequency range. Keep that in mind.

I honestly don't think the FV15HP is legit equal to almost 2 SI 18s, no way no how, if you consider the entire LFE bandwidth from 3-120Hz. It's a great sub by all accounts, but saying it's equal to two medium high xmax, quality 18" sealed subs is a real stretch that I'm not willing to accept as fact. The FV15HP simply isn't magic.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. My comments are based on what's been posted in the ULF thread. And yes, agreeing, my comments are low frequency centric.

According to Data-Bass, open plain, a single FV15HP is easily able to obtain reference at 31.5Hz, no room gain and no co-joining of subwoofers. At 16Hz, a single FV15HP is capable of 104dB and according to Data-Bass, a single sealed DIY, Stereo Integrity HT18D2 is capable of 97.8dB at 16Hz. That's a 6dB difference. How would you characterize this difference in measured output?

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #72 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 08:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 447
Reasonable minds can disagree, Beeman smile.gif

To put things into perspective, let's use Ricci's words and data on the FV15HP. In his measurements of the FV15HP in 1port mode (where it looks so good in CEA Max Burst distortion-limited tests), he said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci 
Unfortunately the single 3" port can't cope with the output of the 15" driver and compresses a lot while also contributing a lot of wind noise at the highest output levels. Still overall headroom and low bass extension are very good. The distortion performance is decent but could be better.

That means that it's pretty likely you'll hear port chuffing at high output. That's important because it's not something that will be caught in the CEA testing.

Further, because we don't limit our listening to CEA Max Burst distortion-limited testing, we should consider the max long-term output of these subs. Granted, the higher frequency performance (maybe 50Hz and up) we won't see on the SI at home because we don't have the same amp capacity as Ricci does for testing, but below that I think is a much more valuable comparison of the FV15HP and the SI 18". Here's that graph, from Data-bass.com:



Although the FV15HP does have more output over 1 octave's worth of the frequency range, it doesn't look like twice as much output to me.
nube is offline  
post #73 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 09:13 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Although the FV15HP does have more output over 1 octave's worth of the frequency range, it doesn't look like twice as much output to me.

Well, other than what I posted regarding the 6dB difference in output, I don't have enough education to respond to the contrary. I'll have to let others who are more knowledgeable on these matters, respond.

(hopefully, at our personal listening levels, <100dB, one port plugged, we won't have to deal with chuffing issues)

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #74 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 09:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 447
I'm not trying to beat a horse to death, but I have more to say about my reasoning that the FV15HP isn't equal to almost 2 SI 18" in practice - the previous graph showed a max of ~3dB advantage in that single octave.

In comparing the 1port vs. 2port modes on the Rythmik, Ricci had this to say about the FV15HP:
Quote:
In its 2 ports open configuration this subwoofer offers notably higher output above 20Hz than with one port open. Also the amount of port compression and wind noise is greatly reduced. Overall the headroom is very good and output is useable till 16Hz still. Compression performance is very good above 30hz as is bandwidth uniformity. Overall we feel like the 2 ports open mode is superior to the single port open mode due to the increased vent area and higher overall output above 20Hz. This subwoofer offers a lot of bang for the buck.
and
Quote:
Comparing the 1 port open mode to the performance of the 2 ports open mode of the Rythmik FV15-HP shows that the 2 ports open mode has higher maximum output everywhere above 20hz. At 20Hz it is only a dB or 2 behind. The greater vent area of having both ports open also lowers the amount of vent compression and noise at the loudest drive levels. Distortion above 20Hz is also better with 2 ports open. The performance in the time domain is slightly worse. This subwoofer offers a lot of output from a modest size and for a reasonable cost considering the performance. The compression performance above 30Hz is very good up until the 115dB sweep level. 2 ports open is probably the better all around performance and recommended for larger spaces and people who need a lot of headroom. 1 port open mode is better for smaller spaces and people who like less loud playback volumes and want the deeper bass extension. The FV15-HP gives a solid performance in either case.

Given that recommendation of 2 ports, the SI 18" vs. FV15HP comparison from Data-bass.com looks a lot more equal in that one octave, maybe even with a slight edge to the SI 18"

nube is offline  
post #75 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 09:21 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Thanks for sharing the above. The good thing about a dead horse, it doesn't know it's continuing to be beat. :P

I appreciate your efforts at enlightening me to your way of thinking.
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #76 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 09:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cowboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 107
In my ~2700 ft^3 seal room, I prefer one port. I bought the fv15hp for deep extension which it separates itself from its competition within its price range: the ability to go very low with usable output which is hard to achieve. Most of us doesn't listen at the level of Ricci's sub testing so port chuffing and distortion won't present.
Cowboys is offline  
post #77 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 11:06 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

In my ~2700 ft^3 seal room, I prefer one port. I bought the fv15hp for deep extension which it separates itself from its competition within its price range: the ability to go very low with usable output which is hard to achieve. Most of us doesn't listen at the level of Ricci's sub testing so port chuffing and distortion won't present.

Like you, I want the FV15HP for it's low tuning point with one port open. I don't want any port chuffing but I'd say, unless doing a demo, the loudest we record, all speakers operating, would be a 100dB. It's nice to have the extra headroom to reduce stress on the system. Most of our listening is in the +65dB to 86dB range with the occasional bumps to 96dB. In my opinion, that will leave a lot of stress reducing headroom to keep distortion down.

(haven't learned about compression sweeps yet)

Also, I'm quite intrigued by "Direct Servo" as my understanding, it tightens up the bass for more articulate music reproduction. Anything that's a plus, I'm all for.
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #78 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 11:51 AM
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,743
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1330 Post(s)
Liked: 1358
Reading through this thread, I can not believe how many people are advising FV15HPs over Submersives. FV15HPs are great bangs for the buck, sure, but a Submersive would be so much more capable. There is a reason why it costs a lot more. And the reasoning for going with FV15Hps is bezerk; "you will get more X dB output a 12 Hz", what kind of autism is this? Past 105 dB, the distortion in deep bass on the FV15HP in one port mode becomes pretty bad. Its a great sub but it isn't the deep bass king. This is the problem which is endemic around here which comes from only looking at CEA burst scores and judging subs by that alone. These people look at extension as if that is all that matters, but not distortion at those same frequencies, where if the subs were pushed to the extent that those frequencies could be perceived, the distortion would actually be a lot louder. But hey, that is just me, and I think accurate reproduction is more important than BIG BOOMS, but I'm dumb like that.

As for the comparison with the FV15HP vs the SI 18, you guys do realize that the SI is getting a huge amount of amplification in the Data-bass.com measurements? No normal DIY sub using the SI drivers are going to be hitting those kind of SPLs especially in the mid and upper bass frequencies. Plus distortion doesn't let the SI hit very high SPLs in deep bass either. If you are interested in chasing real deep bass, I would pay the extra money for some Mach 5 UXL-18 drivers.
shadyJ is offline  
post #79 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 01:12 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 813
.
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #80 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 01:14 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 180 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 8743
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I'm not trying to beat a horse to death, but I have more to say about my reasoning that the FV15HP isn't equal to almost 2 SI 18" in practice - the previous graph showed a max of ~3dB advantage in that single octave.

In comparing the 1port vs. 2port modes on the Rythmik, Ricci had this to say about the FV15HP:
and
Given that recommendation of 2 ports, the SI 18" vs. FV15HP comparison from Data-bass.com looks a lot more equal in that one octave, maybe even with a slight edge to the SI 18"


Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Reading through this thread, I can not believe how many people are advising FV15HPs over Submersives. FV15HPs are great bangs for the buck, sure, but a Submersive would be so much more capable. There is a reason why it costs a lot more. And the reasoning for going with FV15Hps is bezerk; "you will get more X dB output a 12 Hz", what kind of autism is this? Past 105 dB, the distortion in deep bass on the FV15HP in one port mode becomes pretty bad. Its a great sub but it isn't the deep bass king. This is the problem which is endemic around here which comes from only looking at CEA burst scores and judging subs by that alone. These people look at extension as if that is all that matters, but not distortion at those same frequencies, where if the subs were pushed to the extent that those frequencies could be perceived, the distortion would actually be a lot louder. But hey, that is just me, and I think accurate reproduction is more important than BIG BOOMS, but I'm dumb like that.

As for the comparison with the FV15HP vs the SI 18, you guys do realize that the SI is getting a huge amount of amplification in the Data-bass.com measurements? No normal DIY sub using the SI drivers are going to be hitting those kind of SPLs especially in the mid and upper bass frequencies. Plus distortion doesn't let the SI hit very high SPLs in deep bass either. If you are interested in chasing real deep bass, I would pay the extra money for some Mach 5 UXL-18 drivers.


I think you both are missing the fact that we are talking about multiples here. 3 FV15HP's in 1 port mode will run very strong with alot less distortion and port noise compared to 1. Were trying to fill the OP's room with the most even bass coverage and ULF for 4k. If he is willing to go DIY then obviously thats a great option.

Nube, you need to take note that Ricci tests his DIY subs with a 12kilowatt amp. In real world most DIY subs are not going to hit those numbers on data-bass, so yes I still say the it takes 2 SI 18's to equal 1 FV15HP. If you disagree then go to Dominguez ULF thread and ask him to correct his calculations so we are all on the same page.
basshead81 is offline  
post #81 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 01:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Reading through this thread, I can not believe how many people are advising FV15HPs over Submersives. FV15HPs are great bangs for the buck, sure, but a Submersive would be so much more capable. There is a reason why it costs a lot more. And the reasoning for going with FV15Hps is bezerk; "you will get more X dB output a 12 Hz", what kind of autism is this? Past 105 dB, the distortion in deep bass on the FV15HP in one port mode becomes pretty bad. Its a great sub but it isn't the deep bass king. This is the problem which is endemic around here which comes from only looking at CEA burst scores and judging subs by that alone. These people look at extension as if that is all that matters, but not distortion at those same frequencies, where if the subs were pushed to the extent that those frequencies could be perceived, the distortion would actually be a lot louder. But hey, that is just me, and I think accurate reproduction is more important than BIG BOOMS, but I'm dumb like that.

As for the comparison with the FV15HP vs the SI 18, you guys do realize that the SI is getting a huge amount of amplification in the Data-bass.com measurements? No normal DIY sub using the SI drivers are going to be hitting those kind of SPLs especially in the mid and upper bass frequencies. Plus distortion doesn't let the SI hit very high SPLs in deep bass either. If you are interested in chasing real deep bass, I would pay the extra money for some Mach 5 UXL-18 drivers.

shadyJ,

I agree with most of what you said aside from the amplification of deep bass stuff re: the SI 18". It's likely that the only place where the amp makes a difference is above the range we're talking about in the comparison of the FV15HP and the SI 18. We are pretty much exclusively talking about 30Hz and down, where a single large amp, such as those recommended in this thread, will get the SI 18 to its max output the same as Ricci's testing.

As for others talking about not playing the FV15HP that loud, you do realize that it's not necessarily how loud you have it turned up that matters, but what the content in the media asks your equipment to reproduce? I mean, your master volume setting clearly matters, but, in cases where there's extremely hot content down low, the sub is going to struggle to reproduce it as soon as it receives a signal that's just barely clipped. That could happen at MV -15 or 0, depending on how you've setup the chain, and it could happen at -15, even if all the rest of the content has been low level.

What I've noticed with Ricci's reviews is that if he mentions a sub makes bad noises, he almost always notes that they were not a problem during playback of normal content. He didn't do that with the 1port FV15HP testing, but very clearly says the 2port mode is the way to go, which leads me to believe port chuffing could be a fairly big issue. This ignores people's anecdotes that are sure to claim otherwise, because we're all generally bad witnesses. wink.gif

basshead81,

It doesn't matter how many you have. In 1port mode, the FV15HP is likely underported and will prolly always experience port noise when the content has high amplitude effects that are below 20Hz. That's a frequent occurrence for the content most of us watch with such subs & systems. wink.gif

Also, I do note how much amp Ricci has. You might not know, but because of their variable impedance over the frequency spectrum, the subs he tests with that amp are almost never amp limited from 40Hz on down, it's almost always mechanically or noise-limited. That's why it doesn't matter, and why I said the above in response to shadyJ (but I alluded to in an earlier post).
its phillip likes this.
nube is offline  
post #82 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 01:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,457
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3246 Post(s)
Liked: 9581
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Reading through this thread, I can not believe how many people are advising FV15HPs over Submersives. FV15HPs are great bangs for the buck, sure, but a Submersive would be so much more capable. There is a reason why it costs a lot more.

That's a good point but as this thread has run on the OP has stated on more than one occasion that money matters and as basshead pointed out the advice has been to try and help the guy find a way to put three to four subs in his theatre. The Submersives with their price tag seems to exclude them from being an option for multiples. The FV15HP seem to fit within his budget as a good option.


Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #83 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 180 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 8743
Nube, Yes it does matter. The more subs you have means the load is divided to achieve a certain output...which also lowers thd and compression. Instead of assuming why not ask a few that own the FV15HP and they will tell you that the port noise is not a issue with the FV15HP in 1 port mode? Dominguez hates port noise and his dual FV15HP's don't have any issues in 1 port mode...not to mention they are near field too. Again if you disagree with my post then you need to be in the ULF thread posting your thoughts.
basshead81 is offline  
post #84 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:02 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 180 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 8743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

That's a good point but as this thread has run on the OP has stated on more than one occasion that money matters and as basshead pointed out the advice has been to try and help the guy find a way to put three to four subs in his theatre. The Submersives with their price tag seems to exclude them from being an option for multiples. The FV15HP seem to fit within his budget as a good option.

This!
basshead81 is offline  
post #85 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Romans828's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Naboo
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

That's a good point but as this thread has run on the OP has stated on more than one occasion that money matters and as basshead pointed out the advice has been to try and help the guy find a way to put three to four subs in his theatre. The Submersives with their price tag seems to exclude them from being an option for multiples. The FV15HP seem to fit within his budget as a good option.

Yeah...if we are talking more than 2, the Submersives go into a price range that would require a lightsaber duel with my wife.


JVC RS600 | Dual PSA V3600i | Denon X6300H | Klipsch THX Ultra 2 | CDT-5800-C II Atmos | Oppo UDP-203
Romans828 is offline  
post #86 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:15 PM
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,743
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1330 Post(s)
Liked: 1358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

That's a good point but as this thread has run on the OP has stated on more than one occasion that money matters and as basshead pointed out the advice has been to try and help the guy find a way to put three to four subs in his theatre. The Submersives with their price tag seems to exclude them from being an option for multiples. The FV15HP seem to fit within his budget as a good option.
A Submersive with a slave is a multiple sub setup. And for all the advice towards 3, 4 sub setups, the OP doesn't even know his room acoustics yet. He could end up being just fine with two or even one (if he is very lucky). Yes, it does look like the FV15HP is underported in one port mode. 3" is not enough for that kind of displacement, although that isn't a problem at 105 dB and below. The thing is, 105 dB isn't much output at 12 to 20 Hz. I will reiterate what I said before, if the OP can do DIY, the best bang for the buck deep bass to me looks like UXL-18s. $4k will get you a nice beefy quad UXL-18 setup, that ought to get palpable deep bass without being overshadowed by distortion.
shadyJ is offline  
post #87 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 180 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 8743
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

A Submersive with a slave is a multiple sub setup. And for all the advice towards 3, 4 sub setups, the OP doesn't even know his room acoustics yet. He could end up being just fine with two or even one (if he is very lucky). Yes, it does look like the FV15HP is underported in one port mode. 3" is not enough for that kind of displacement, although that isn't a problem at 105 dB and below. The thing is, 105 dB isn't much output at 12 to 20 Hz. I will reiterate what I said before, if the OP can do DIY, the best bang for the buck deep bass to me looks like UXL-18s. $4k will get you a nice beefy quad UXL-18 setup, that ought to get palpable deep bass without being overshadowed by distortion.

105db is 2m rms. in room were looking at around 110-112db @ 12hz with 2 FV15HP's....that's solid output. The Op can get 3 FV15HP's for less then a Seaton SubM master slave combo and have more output in the 12-20hz range over the Seaton. Is the Seaton a better sub overall, yes, but in the OP's case the Rythmik looks to be a solid choice unless he can go DIY for his budget.

Btw I find it funny you mention "all this advice towards 3-4 subs" then you recommend QUAD UXL-18's LOL.
Hopinater likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #88 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,345
Mentioned: 163 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Reading through this thread, I can not believe how many people are advising FV15HPs over Submersives. FV15HPs are great bangs for the buck, sure, but a Submersive would be so much more capable. There is a reason why it costs a lot more. And the reasoning for going with FV15Hps is bezerk; "you will get more X dB output a 12 Hz", what kind of autism is this? Past 105 dB, the distortion in deep bass on the FV15HP in one port mode becomes pretty bad. Its a great sub but it isn't the deep bass king. This is the problem which is endemic around here which comes from only looking at CEA burst scores and judging subs by that alone. These people look at extension as if that is all that matters, but not distortion at those same frequencies, where if the subs were pushed to the extent that those frequencies could be perceived, the distortion would actually be a lot louder. But hey, that is just me, and I think accurate reproduction is more important than BIG BOOMS, but I'm dumb like that.

As for the comparison with the FV15HP vs the SI 18, you guys do realize that the SI is getting a huge amount of amplification in the Data-bass.com measurements? No normal DIY sub using the SI drivers are going to be hitting those kind of SPLs especially in the mid and upper bass frequencies. Plus distortion doesn't let the SI hit very high SPLs in deep bass either. If you are interested in chasing real deep bass, I would pay the extra money for some Mach 5 UXL-18 drivers.
What chart are you looking at that shows the distortion is pretty bad over 105db? At the max burst at 12.5hz it shows 10% THD.

Why do you think the submersive is much more capable? What's the reason why it costs more? The FV15HP certainly isn't the king overall, but commercially from 12-20hz what bests it?
dominguez1 is offline  
post #89 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 7,902
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2660 Post(s)
Liked: 2442
With this talk of the FV15 being "under ported" in one port mode, does that make the PB/PC-13 Ultra actually better when driven to its extremes due it having more port area? Does it equate to less noise and distortion? Maybe one of several reasons they cost more?

Thanks

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Onkyo RZ820
Roku Ultra, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Quattron
Kini62 is offline  
post #90 of 200 Old 11-22-2013, 02:52 PM
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,743
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1330 Post(s)
Liked: 1358
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

105db is 2m rms. in room were looking at around 110-112db @ 12hz with 2 FV15HP's....that's solid output. The Op can get 3 FV15HP's for less then a Seaton SubM master slave combo and have more output in the 12-20hz range over the Seaton. Is the Seaton a better sub overall, yes, but in the OP's case the Rythmik looks to be a solid choice unless he can go DIY for his budget.

Btw I find it funny you mention "all this advice towards 3-4 subs" then you recommend QUAD UXL-18's LOL.

You don't know how deep bass is going to add up in his room. That is a tremendously speculative guess. Anyhow the Seatons may still offer a more visceral deep bass experience due to their gradual 12/dB rolloff, and what's more, they will not have any issues with ports. Like I said, 3" port is too small for a 15" woofer with that much displacement, hell I can get my VTF3 to chuff in two port mode if I push it hard enough and that is a 12" woofer with much less xmax with two 4" ports. Even the VTF3 may be able to offer more clean output at it's tuning frequency where port contribution is concerned

As for quad UXL-18s, I meant the drivers, and they can be put in any kind of configuration. He could do four subs, three subs, two subs, even even one monster sub with four drivers. The overall performance remains the same in room. Each driver can produce just a bit less sub20 Hz clean deep bass than a FV15 and also has the advantage of a 12/dB rolloff. Four UXL-18s will at the very least equal three FV15HPs anywhere within the FV15HP's ported output without having to worry about port noise, and four UXL-18s blow the FV15HPs away at all frequencies above and below that.

Edit, added in bold, I am not suggestion that the VTF3 outguns the FV15HP at any frequency.
shadyJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Svs Pb13 Ultra , Seaton Sound Submersive F2 , Fv15hp Subwoofer , Seaton Sound Submersive H P , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp , Klipsch

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off