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post #61 of 96 Old 12-29-2013, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And a second subwoofer makes the room come alive by adding depth to the sound stage.


Why do they call you the subwoofer enabler?  I have no idea :)

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post #62 of 96 Old 12-29-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And a second subwoofer makes the room come alive by adding depth to the sound stage.

Not necessarily true unless the first sub was inadequate to produce smooth in-room response.
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post #63 of 96 Old 12-29-2013, 07:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post

Not necessarily true unless the first sub was inadequate to produce smooth in-room response.
Adding depth to the sound stage, no, not when most of the wavelengths produced are longer than the room. But one sub cannot produce smooth in-room response unless the LP is quite small, perhaps two seats wide, and it might take a lot of EQ to do so.
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post #64 of 96 Old 12-29-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Adding depth to the sound stage, no, not when most of the wavelengths produced are longer than the room. But one sub cannot produce smooth in-room response unless the LP is quite small, perhaps two seats wide, and it might take a lot of EQ to do so.

Excuse me, produce smooth response at the LP. I have smooth response without EQ across my 2 seat couch without EQ. Not unheard of.

Psychoacoustically, good bass can be perceived as "depth" or fullness of the soundstage.
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post #65 of 96 Old 12-29-2013, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Adding depth to the sound stage, no, not when most of the wavelengths produced are longer than the room. But one sub cannot produce smooth in-room response unless the LP is quite small, perhaps two seats wide, and it might take a lot of EQ to do so.


As something that I just thought of, I had intended on running one sub, whichever I choose.  Would keeping the old sub(PSW110) hooked up improve or hinder overall sound quality due to the huge disparity in output between the two subs.  For the purpose of smoothing in room response.

 

Oh and Bill, did you get my PM?

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post #66 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 01:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post

Not necessarily true unless the first sub was inadequate to produce smooth in-room response.

Actually, it is true. Until one has heard their room light up, they're guessing. The difference is "HUGE." I cannot go back on this personal experience.

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post #67 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 01:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

As something that I just thought of, I had intended on running one sub, whichever I choose.  Would keeping the old sub(PSW110) hooked up improve or hinder overall sound quality due to the huge disparity in output between the two subs.  For the purpose of smoothing in room response.

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them you're willing to share with the economy.

In human terms, too many people are looking for a cheap subwoofer date and aren't looking for subwoofers of substance.

(in the case of local ID subwoofers, the more they cost, the smarter they are)

The point, how stupid does one wish their subwoofers to sound?

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Why do they call you the subwoofer enabler? I have no idea smile.gif

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post #68 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 05:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


As something that I just thought of, I had intended on running one sub, whichever I choose.  Would keeping the old sub(PSW110) hooked up improve or hinder overall sound quality due to the huge disparity in output between the two subs.  For the purpose of smoothing in room response.
In most cases two mis-matched subs together will still work better than either one on it's own.
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Oh and Bill, did you get my PM?
I don't even look at PMs, not even on my own forum. When you get upwards of twenty a day per forum attended , and I regularly go to six forums, if I answered them all I wouldn't have free time to do anything else.
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post #69 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, it is true. Until one has heard their room light up, they're guessing. The difference is "HUGE." I cannot go back on this personal experience.

-

No not really. Bill is right about this one. I've had 1, 2, 3, 4 subs in my setup so I'm not really guessing. The difference might be huge in your experience but its not necessarily true in everyone's room or setup. You don't necessarily gain anything tangible except max SPL by adding another sub unless you care to explain this phenomenon.
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post #70 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In most cases two mis-matched subs together will still work better than either one on it's own.

I'd agree. Be wary as the Polk might exhibit signs of distress much earlier such as bottoming out, port chuffing, distortion than the more capable sub on demanding program material.
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post #71 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 07:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post

No not really. Bill is right about this one. I've had 1, 2, 3, 4 subs in my setup so I'm not really guessing. The difference might be huge in your experience but its not necessarily true in everyone's room or setup. You don't necessarily gain anything tangible except max SPL by adding another sub unless you care to explain this phenomenon.

I've had up to three subs in our room and no I can't explain the phenomenon, nor do I care to. I've heard this phenomenon so I don't care how right Bill or you think you are on this matter, you're not changing my mind.

Currently, we're running two subwoofers and UPS is holding an upgrade AVR for us, to be delivered Tuesday next week. It will have XT32 and SubEQ HT. Later next year, I'm looking to add a matching third subwoofer. The point, I believe in what I'm posting because personal experience has shown me the light. The point, we'll just have to agree to disagree and get along with our disagreement as I'm sure, this point aside, there's much all three of us agree on.

Bill's the professional. I don't know what your qualifications are and I'm an incompetent so forgive me if I use terms incorrectly or post comments not to your liking. In the end, life's good.
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post #72 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I've had up to three subs in our room and no I can't explain the phenomenon, nor do I care to. I've heard this phenomenon so I don't care how right Bill or you think you are on this matter, you're not changing my mind.

Currently, we're running two subwoofers and UPS is holding an upgrade AVR for us, to be delivered Tuesday next week. It will have XT32 and SubEQ HT. Later next year, I'm looking to add a matching third subwoofer. The point, I believe in what I'm posting because personal experience has shown me the light. The point, we'll just have to agree to disagree and get along with our disagreement as I'm sure, this point aside, there's much all three of us agree on.

Bill's the professional. I don't know what your qualifications are and I'm an incompetent so forgive me if I use terms incorrectly or post comments not to your liking. In the end, life's good.

There's nothing wrong as you stated. If you hear the difference, then adding that sub was beneficial in your setup. However, adding subs even past 1 is not necessarily significantly advantageous depending on so many factors. As far as whether two subs suddenly add depth as though it creates a front or back, it doesn't really happen as Bill stated.

As far as my qualifications? I'm just another yokel trying to help the OP.

As for new AVR's, new stuff is nice wink.gif. I'm sure if I got back into the HT game, I'd do many things differently than things before such as have all the new Audyssey stuff. So I can't really speak for all the new stuff coming out with built in EQ.
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post #73 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 07:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post

As far as whether two subs suddenly add depth as though it creates a front or back, it doesn't really happen as Bill stated.

Based on personal experience, it does. Definitely increases the size of the sound stage. As to why, what do I care? I also toe our main speakers out to increase the size of the sound stage and this is based on personal (non-professions) sound checks done at our local performing arts center. Our surrounds are set asymmetrically. As I posted, based on personal experience, I'm not going change my opinion to make someone happy as to do so is to being intellectually dishonest.

After the forty hour subwoofer break-in period and the replacement AVR is up and running, I'll start getting some measurements so I can finally see what's happening with our room acoustics. In the meantime, there's no reason to setup and take REW measurements as it's all good.

None of it is worth an argument.
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post #74 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In most cases two mis-matched subs together will still work better than either one on it's own.
I don't even look at PMs, not even on my own forum. When you get upwards of twenty a day per forum attended , and I regularly go to six forums, if I answered them all I wouldn't have free time to do anything else.

Thanks bill. I wont get much out of the polk sub if i sell it so i will possibly use it as my second to smooth out bass. Cheers to everyones input or i would not have considered that option
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post #75 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd agree. Be wary as the Polk might exhibit signs of distress much earlier such as bottoming out, port chuffing, distortion than the more capable sub on demanding program material.

Good point. I will have to be sure to keep the level turned down a bit so it doesnt distress before the good one.
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post #76 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 08:12 AM
 
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Good point. I will have to be sure to keep the level turned down a bit so it doesnt distress before the good one.

Actually, it's the opposite as the concern is for the stronger sub when it's required to make up for the loss of reinforcement the weaker sub brings to the table. To prevent problems, if possible, it's always better to run matching subs.
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post #77 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, it's the opposite as the concern is for the stronger sub when it's required to make up for the loss of reinforcement the weaker sub brings to the table. To prevent problems, if possible, it's always better to run matching subs.

You don't lose anything by using a weaker sub and the stronger sub won't have to make up for the loss because there won't be any loss. You'd just have another sub playing the same material which would help smooth out dips which is why Bill stated that it's better in most cases it's better to run duals.
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post #78 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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[
quote name="aboroth00" url="/t/1507631/subwoofer-suggestions-upgrading-from-psw110/60#post_24136174"]
You don't lose anything by using a weaker sub and the stronger sub won't have to make up for the loss because there won't be any loss. You'd just have another sub playing the same material which would help smooth out dips which is why Bill stated that it's better in most cases it's better to run duals.[/quote]

I plan to measure the polks output, then the new sub, then both, and hopefully share some graphs with everyone if anyone would be interested.
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post #79 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 09:03 AM
 
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I plan to measure the polks output, then the new sub, then both, and hopefully share some graphs with everyone if anyone would be interested.
You usually get best results with one sub in the front of the room, one in the back. I'd put the new one the furthest from the LP, the Polk closest to the LP, which will to some extent compensate for the difference in their output capabilities.
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post #80 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 10:49 AM
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You usually get best results with one sub in the front of the room, one in the back. I'd put the new one the furthest from the LP, the Polk closest to the LP, which will to some extent compensate for the difference in their output capabilities.

Good advice here. Putting the Polk closer to the LP will make it work less and play cleaner louder. Play around with placement as something that may work best some of the time might not work best in your situation. Localizability might be a concern with nearfield placement. But hey, you'll have two subs so it's up to you to play around with it to see what you can get.

Here's a good white paper if you're interested on subwoofer placement. http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf
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post #81 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You usually get best results with one sub in the front of the room, one in the back. I'd put the new one the furthest from the LP, the Polk closest to the LP, which will to some extent compensate for the difference in their output capabilities.


I think I have a good option for this with my room layout.  I can place the Polk nearfield towards the right rear corner of the room and the big gun front left corner where the current wimpy sub is.  I think I have the wife almost convinced to pull the trigger.  Its helping that I will be ordering her a new mac book pro at the same time if I do :)

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post #82 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Only thing I am agonizing over at this point is the max SPL differences between my frontrunner and the other one or two I am considering.  I am trying to convince my self that I wont miss the extra output with my listening habits, as I like the whole package better with my current top pick.  Brent Buttersworth said during his review of my current choice that he was having a hard time telling a  sound difference between it and the HSU VTF15 during a blind A-B comparison, although it definitely had less peak output.  But he also said he listened as loud as he could stand and never hit the limiter.

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post #83 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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post #85 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks..I am very excited.  I live pretty close to SVS they said will ship tomorrow and 1 day shipping!

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post #86 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 02:53 PM
 
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After you're up and running, stop by the bass demo thread for some great bass heavy movie title recommendations.
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post #87 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like a plan.  I have to say, the most frustrating part of all of this was trying to find fair and accurate comparisons between subwoofer output ratings.  I know a lot of people are trying to provide fair comparisons with the CEA2010 measurement standards, but I found a lot of variation in posted measurements.  I work in quality control for a living, and I have to say it took a lot of scouring over the data with a fine tooth comb in order to find accurate and fair comparisons.  One chart lists numbers for 2m, another chart lists them for one, etc etc.  I even found discrepancies between charts done by the same establishment for the same product.  I can just imagine how (unintentionally) misled a lot of people could be by seeing and comparing charts from different organizations referenced in different ways without realizing they are not seeing an apples to apples comparison. 

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post #88 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 03:56 PM
 
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I work in quality control for a living, and I have to say it took a lot of scouring over the data with a fine tooth comb in order to find accurate and fair comparisons.

Must make comparing anything a total pain for someone with your particular set of professional skills. tongue.gif That's the beauty of the ULF thread as it brings all this information under one roof so an individual has an unbiased method in which to compare dissimilar subwoofers, in dissimilar sized rooms. dominguez1 has put a great deal of love and effort into that thread and I for one appreciate all that he's done.

Agreeing with you, ferreting out dissimilar reviews, unstated testing methods, varying parameters and in the process, create a usable meta study is a total pain. Especially when one finds their efforts have intellectual holes in it and one just can't seem to find a report in which to fill in the missing data.

The first post in this thread will give you lots of bass heavy titles but the purpose of this thread is to focus on the actual output of an individual section of the movie.

Good luck dealing with the wait. biggrin.gif

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post #89 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.  I have to say Im still second guessing myself a bit, its in my nature when I make a purchase.  There are two other subs out there that have substantially higher 30-80 Hz output than the svs I just ordered(that I was considering anyway).  I have convinced myself that I wont notice this due to the room size and my listening habits.  I feel like the Outlaws quality rules that one out as an option for me, and the PSA was $100 bucks higher.  If I had a larger space or felt like I really needed more output I would have leaned towards the PSA.  If nothing else, I have 45 days to make sure :)

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post #90 of 96 Old 12-30-2013, 05:46 PM
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Thanks.  I have to say Im still second guessing myself a bit, its in my nature when I make a purchase.  There are two other subs out there that have substantially higher 30-80 Hz output than the svs I just ordered(that I was considering anyway).  I have convinced myself that I wont notice this due to the room size and my listening habits.  I feel like the Outlaws quality rules that one out as an option for me, and the PSA was $100 bucks higher.  If I had a larger space or felt like I really needed more output I would have leaned towards the PSA.  If nothing else, I have 45 days to make sure smile.gif

Good choice! Like you said, if its not enough you can always return it and get the PSA sub.
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