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post #31 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

Tom. It's been awhile since I purchased the XS30 and was on your website, so I thought I'd take a look at what all the hubbub was about. The only thing I see that raised an eyebrow was your "PSA Value Factor", which Shady pointed out. I tend to agree with him on this point. What I don't agree with is Shady's never ending stalking of PSA in every thread. While his personal grudge may be real or imagined, it is simply not healthy. There is a guy named Eduardo on Amazon that stalks any and all Bose products and lashes out. Again, not that I don't agree with some of Eduardo's points, it's his mindless stalking that is really troublesome.

Hi dsrussell,

The "value" factor was an attempt to explain the logarithmic nature of the decibel scale to the very casual home theater hobbyist. Believe it or not, I bet > 90% of the folks visiting our website don't spend countless hours on the various audio forums..smile.gif The whole "calculation" is simple. If subwoofer *A* provides 6dB more than subwoofer *B* based on the CEA-2010 protocol it takes two of subwoofer *B* to provide the same output as subwoofer *A*. The value factor is based on the CEA-2010 output capabilities. I believe we made that clear in the charts but I will review that and see if we can clean it up if necessary.

Tom V.
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post #32 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

Tom: I don't believe I have seen anyone dispute the CEA-2010 standard or its use in your charts.. The hot-button issues, that have raised a few eyebrows, are all in the infamous thread linked above. I do not think you have offered your expertise on the data posted by Luke or Bosso. It would be interesting to get your input.

1)when one of the subs we list has multiple "extension" modes we use the data for the mode that most closely matches the extension of our product. After all, the entire purpose of these charts is to compare OUR prodcut to others. Many of the "graphs" that are posted do not do this. They will use maximum output mode for the competitor regardless of extension similarities. Of course it is *never* mentioned that our product provides deeper extension using during this process.

2)The crux of the entire argument (that I saw) against our chart was that using some OTHER form of "max output" metric would be more indicative to real world source material than the 2010-CEA burst method. I disagree completely with this and *all* of the evidence supports me. This is exactly way the CEA-2010 protocol has been implemented. The tone bursts used most closely mimic the transient nature of real world source material. AES members can find quite a few peer reviewed research papers that support this over and over and over. The evidence against it? Casper.

3)all of the "graphs" used in the thread never scaled the XV15 data properly. Josh Ricci has already stated that if you are comparing the Xv15 to a subwoofer measured with the driver facing the mic....adding 1.0 to 1.5dB to the XV date was correct.

4)When certain test tones are used our DSP is going to react by clamping down on the amplifier's maximum output momentarily. This has *nothing* to do with how the subwoofer will react with actual source material(which is represented by the CEA-2010 bursts). We really don't worry about winning some bizarre "sine wave war" in the parking lot. Our entire focus is on the performance someone is going to experience with their favorite music and film.

As for addressing the two main Power Sound Audio antagonists----they have been on my ignore list for a while now. I just don't have time to go through the constant barrage of thinly veiled personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just express our thought process and then move on to the other million things that would be more productive that taking the "bait"..smile.gif



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post #33 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

1)when one of the subs we list has multiple "extension" modes we use the data for the mode that most closely matches the extension of our product. After all, the entire purpose of these charts is to compare OUR prodcut to others. Many of the "graphs" that are posted do not do this. They will use maximum output mode for the competitor regardless of extension similarities. Of course it is *never* mentioned that our product provides deeper extension using during this process.

2)The crux of the entire argument (that I saw) against our chart was that using some OTHER form of "max output" metric would be more indicative to real world source material than the 2010-CEA burst method. I disagree completely with this and *all* of the evidence supports me. This is exactly way the CEA-2010 protocol has been implemented. The tone bursts used most closely mimic the transient nature of real world source material. AES members can find quite a few peer reviewed research papers that support this over and over and over. The evidence against it? Casper.

3)all of the "graphs" used in the thread never scaled the XV15 data properly. Josh Ricci has already stated that if you are comparing the Xv15 to a subwoofer measured with the driver facing the mic....adding 1.0 to 1.5dB to the XV date was correct.

4)When certain test tones are used our DSP is going to react by clamping down on the amplifier's maximum output momentarily. This has *nothing* to do with how the subwoofer will react with actual source material(which is represented by the CEA-2010 bursts). We really don't worry about winning some bizarre "sine wave war" in the parking lot. Our entire focus is on the performance someone is going to experience with their favorite music and film.

As for addressing the two main Power Sound Audio antagonists----they have been on my ignore list for a while now. I just don't have time to go through the constant barrage of thinly veiled personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just express our thought process and then move on to the other million things that would be more productive that taking the "bait"..smile.gif



Tom V.
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Nor....should you Tom...love the XS30 now go & enjoy some football...wink.gif

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post #34 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 04:08 PM
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PSA (Tom V.'s) willingness to discuss his products and thought processes on these boards is commendable. I have never heard a PSA sub, but if I have no doubt they are terrific in their price brackets.

Their CS is amazing.
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post #35 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

PSA (Tom V.'s) willingness to discuss his products and thought processes on these boards is commendable. I have never heard a PSA sub, but if I have no doubt they are terrific in their price brackets.

Their CS is amazing.

Same with hsu,seaton, and jtr!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #36 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 05:01 PM
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BUT I should mention only one of those companies has a sub $700 sub:D:D:D

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #37 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

What I don't agree with is Shady's never ending stalking of PSA in every thread. While his personal grudge may be real or imagined, it is simply not healthy. There is a guy named Eduardo on Amazon that stalks any and all Bose products and lashes out. Again, not that I don't agree with some of Eduardo's points, it's his mindless stalking that is really troublesome.

When a manufacture has a long standing reference of positive reviews from many, many buyers, fluff and hype aside, that's a clear indication of the validity of what's being posed by the manufacture. And if one has but a lone voice in the woods, screeching at every chance they have, that one dissenting voice is just that, a Harpy to be ignored cause they're as invalid as the day is long and in my opinion, mindless stalking is indicative of a troubled mind.
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post #38 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 05:33 PM
 
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I would concede that CEA has merit in one aspect of a sub's performance, that of output within certain targeted distortion limits within a certain band. However, as a measurement it does not tell the whole story of output, and it does not tell the whole story of distortion, and this is because it only measures a confined band of frequencies, 20 to 63 Hz. There is more to a subwoofer's performance than that. According to Tom, no one should listen to me since I am not published in the JAES, but if you want proof, just play some tones that sweep above and below 20 to 63 Hz. Hear that stuff? That's what CEA doesn't measure. Tom would love you to pay attention to CEA's region alone because outside of that band, his bread-and-butter driver just does not do very well. CEA does not cover real deep bass, it calls 20 to 31.5 Hz bass 'ultra deep', which is laughable to many of the enthusiasts around here. It does not cover bass above 63 Hz which is actually a very crucial range and typically has more soundtrack content in it than 20 to 63.

Another aspect where CEA2010 falls short is the equal loudness contour vs the audibility of harmonic distortion at deep frequencies. The harmonics of deep frequencies are way more audible than the fundamentals themselves. CEA does not account for this because their THD thresholds are fixed for every frequency. A superior metric would account for that. PSA does not want to acknowledge that because of the relatively high levels of THD their subs start hitting at those frequencies. But don't listen to me, I am just a crazy person who hasn't been published in the JAES.

Furthermore, what you won't see Tom acknowledge is that CEA has too much variation between for the kind of comparison he wants to make. CEA is good for a rough idea of how these subs might compare, but it is nowhere near precise enough for his sham 'value factor', where every decibel counts. Example discrepancies include audioholics and data-bass' results for the same exact FV15HP unit, the many different results for the VTF15h, and S&V's results for the SVS subs. Brent Butterworth even wrote a detailed four page article describing the limits and variations of CEA in this respect, but that didn't stop PSA from using Brent's own measurements of Deftech's sub from being excluded from their bogus comparison chart!

Tom has dodged the critique of his subs poor CEA frequency response, by seemingly claiming that everything within the CEA averaged regions sound the same because CEA can be stated in averages, but I doubt Don Keel would agree. The averaging is what you do when you run out of print space:
Quote:
CEA-2010 mandates a specific way to present the measurements, which looks like this:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 110.4 dB
20 Hz 101.1 dB
25 Hz 107.3 dB
31.5 Hz 116.3 dB

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 118.6 dB
40 Hz 117.2 dB
50 Hz 118.8 dB
63 Hz 119.5 dB

Of course, you can arrange these numbers as you wish; the important thing is that they're all presented. Actually, you aren't required to break out the numbers for all frequencies; you can just report the averages if you choose. But unless you're pressed for space (i.e., in a print magazine), you should report all the data.

So either frequency response accuracy matters, or PSA ran out of webpage space and couldn't fit in all those extra numbers.

Regarding the XV15's inflated CEA data:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

The minor scaling that the reviewer in question has confirmed is correct on one model---the XV15. (adding about 1dB to his XV15 measurements because the driver was actually about 7foot from the mic versus 6 foot for other brands). Is is all simple math, and math we have performed accurately.

What Tom isn't saying is that, would the sub have measured a little bit more output, sure, but it would have measured a lot more distortion. By turning a subwoofer away from the listener (or mic), higher frequency output will be masked. If anyone needs this proved, just listen to your speaker facing away from you. So by having the XV15 tested as he did, Ricci was masking much of its harmonic distortion. If you want to know how that would have affected any output test which has a distortion threshold, ask any audio scientist or audio engineer. Ask Josh Ricci himself.
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post #39 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

When a manufacture has a long standing reference of positive reviews from many, many buyers, fluff and hype aside, that's a clear indication of the validity of what's being posed by the manufacture. And if one has but a lone voice in the woods, screeching at every chance they have, that one dissenting voice is just that, a Harpy to be ignored cause they're as invalid as the day is long and in my opinion, mindless stalking is indicative of a troubled mind.
Thats how the cht and bose folks used to feel! smile.gif lol

Lets not forget axiom!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #40 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:12 PM
 
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Thats how the cht and bose folks used to feel! smile.gif lol

Lets not forget axiom!

Not arguing, I don't understand the point you're making. confused.gif

FWIW, PSA's XV15 received a "Top Pick."
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post #41 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:13 PM
 
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To summarize my previous post, PSA has used a whole host of techniques to inflate their subs performance in a bogus comparison made to look legit because the letters CEA are splashed all over it. But PSA deliberately misuses the protocol for their benefit. What's more is, PSA is using their own in-house measurements as comparison points. Given the level of deceit already on display here, I have to wonder about the authenticity of their own numbers. If they want a legitimate comparison, why wouldn't they just have Ricci or Audioholics measure their subs? I would say approach PSA's own numbers with skepticism until verified by a third party. At the very least, it is improper to use in-house measurements in a comparison against other subs. After all, if PSA can not be straight on the one sub that does have third party measurements, why should anyone trust their measurements which have no other corroboration whatsoever?
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post #42 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not arguing, I don't understand the point you're making. confused.gif

FWIW, PSA's XV15 received a "Top Pick."

I'm not saying PSA is a bad product (As I was interested in their XS30 sometime ago), I'm just saying just because a lot of people like it doesn't make the claims of a manufacture accurate?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #43 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

To summarize my previous post, PSA has used a whole host of techniques to inflate their subs performance in a bogus comparison made to look legit because the letters CEA is splashed all over it. But PSA deliberately misuses the protocol for their benefit. What's more is, PSA is using their own in-house measurements as comparison points. Given the level of deceit already on display here, I have to wonder about the authenticity of their own numbers. If they want a legitimate comparison, why wouldn't they just have Ricci or Audioholics measure their subs? I would say approach PSA's own numbers with skepticism until verified by a third party. At the very least, it is improper to use in-house measurements in a comparison against other subs. After all, if PSA can not be straight on the one sub that does have third party measurements, why should anyone trust their measurements which have no other corroboration whatsoever?

You know I haven't been following your so called "grudge match" against PSA so I don't really know whats going on..biggrin.gif

but with that said, I'd feel more comfortable looking at numbers that were measured by the same person/tester instead by the manufacturer.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #44 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I'm not saying PSA is a bad product (As I was interested in their XS30 sometime ago), I'm just saying just because a lot of people like it doesn't make the claims of a manufacture accurate?

Doesn't make them inaccurate either. The point, we all are measuring the poo out of our subs and nobody who has tested a paid for PSA product, is coming back accusing PSA of misrepresentation. Yes, despite your comment, in my opinion, this is valid testimony and should be considered.

OTOH, when there's a single voice, that should be considered for what it is also.

(disclosure, we have a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs)

What subs did you finally go with?
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post #45 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

What I don't agree with is Shady's never ending stalking of PSA in every thread. .

I offer commentary about PSA in only a few threads. Most of the time I do not comment when they are mentioned. I have my complaints about integrity of PSA's marketing, and they are legitimate, and you even seem to agree. I don't participate in PSA's own thread or any product devoted thread of theirs. I usually only comment on them in recommend threads where someone asks me directly about them or someone makes an untrue claim about them which I can correct. If you don't believe me, find something I wrote which contradicts that. I get accused of stalking them by PSA owners because I am willing to criticize them. If you want to be among them, you are welcome to do so, but you would do better to look through my post history more closely and make an informed decision based on that instead of just casually encouraging everyone to dismiss me as a stalker.
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post #46 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 06:46 PM
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I offer commentary about PSA in only a few threads. Most of the time I do not comment when they are mentioned. I have my complaints about integrity of PSA's marketing, and they are legitimate, and you even seem to agree. I don't participate in PSA's own thread or any product devoted thread of theirs. I usually only comment on them in recommend threads where someone asks about me directly about them or someone makes an untrue claim about them which I can correct. If you don't believe me, find something I wrote which contradicts that. I get accused of stalking them by PSA owners because I am willing to criticize them. If you want to be among them, you are welcome to do so, but you would do better to look through my post history more closely and make an informed decision based on that instead of just casually encouraging everyone to dismiss me as a stalker.

Are you looking for validation from him after you called his review on the same 2 subs I have in home on another forum as worthless....you're a classic!

Here is the caption ...I can cherry pick much like you!!


Russel's comparison is worthless

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Are you looking for validation from him after you called his review on the same 2 subs I have in home on another forum as worthless....you're a classic!

So then its totally fair for him to make unfounded personal attacks against me because I (fairly) criticized his review? We are adults here, right, and not just a closely-bunched cluster of balloons filled with ego?
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Not arguing, I don't understand the point you're making. confused.gif

FWIW, PSA's XV15 received a "Top Pick."

Lol, its 'top pick' status doesn't exactly place it among a very exclusive bunch. There's this thing called 'context'...
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post #49 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 07:00 PM
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Lol, its 'top pick' status doesn't exactly place it among a very exclusive bunch. There's this thing called 'context'...

Btw..who received the same award in 2011 so you can put things into context for us and from the same source I might add.

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post #50 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Doesn't make them inaccurate either. The point, we all are measuring the poo out of our subs and nobody who has tested a paid for PSA product, is coming back accusing PSA of misrepresentation. Yes, despite your comment, in my opinion, this is valid testimony and should be considered.

OTOH, when there's a single voice, that should be considered for what it is also.

(disclosure, we have a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs)

What subs did you finally go with?

Fair enough. smile.gif

I'm saving up for JTR 228s + Dual S1s maybe 2s if I can afford it biggrin.gif. I was originally interested in the PSA stuff when I first got my dual 16-46ci used awhile back. I emailed Tom about setting it up and he talked about his future company (before it was announced as PSA) and that made me interested for sure. Seems like his company is definitely delivering though!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #51 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 08:09 PM
 
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I'm saving up for JTR 228s + Dual S1s maybe 2s if I can afford it biggrin.gif.

...eek.gif Nothing like lofty goals.

If you can, to start with, go with the pair of S2s and add as you can from there. Would have loved a pair of S2s but the budget will only support three FV15HPs, of which, I now have two. Hopefully, sometime after September this year, I can add the third FV15HP.

Just recently added a Denon AVR 4520CI and a Denon DBT3313-UDCI universal blu-ray player. Have to absorb the costs before adding the third subwoofer.
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post #52 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

When a manufacture has a long standing reference of positive reviews from many, many buyers, fluff and hype aside, that's a clear indication of the validity of what's being posed by the manufacture.

Without casting aspersions on PSA, that statement shows the naivety commensurate with your join date. You really have no idea.
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post #53 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post


2)The crux of the entire argument (that I saw) against our chart was that using some OTHER form of "max output" metric would be more indicative to real world source material than the 2010-CEA burst method.
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No, Tom, the crux of the argument is that the chart is cheesy and "OMG the PSA sub is best no matter what!", and those that know you know you're better than that.

10 years ago, if some company had posted that chart, you'd have rolled your eyes out the back of your head.
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Btw..who received the same award in 2011 so you can put things into context for us and from the same source I might add.

.

I didn't say that award was a bad thing, it just is not as special as its name would suggest.
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post #55 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 09:23 PM
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I offer commentary about PSA in only a few threads. Most of the time I do not comment when they are mentioned. I have my complaints about integrity of PSA's marketing, and they are legitimate, and you even seem to agree. I don't participate in PSA's own thread or any product devoted thread of theirs. I usually only comment on them in recommend threads where someone asks about me directly about them or someone makes an untrue claim about them which I can correct. If you don't believe me, find something I wrote which contradicts that. I get accused of stalking them by PSA owners because I am willing to criticize them. If you want to be among them, you are welcome to do so, but you would do better to look through my post history more closely and make an informed decision based on that instead of just casually encouraging everyone to dismiss me as a stalker.

ShadyJ: I had to laugh when I just read that you had criticized my review and considered it worthless. Guess what? That is quite fine by me. One opens oneself up to public criticism when one publishes anything … a comment, a review, whatever.

As far as my thoughts on your stalking, it is what it is. I've already given you far too much attention as is. However, I do wish you well.
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Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #56 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 10:03 PM
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As much as I hate to say it I think shady does get a pretty fair amount of grief from guys maybe a little self inflicted but hey at least he sticks to his guns. Guys should treat him a little more civil at times too, he doesn't name call like the way guys do it too him.

He's entitled to his opinions and I can't fault him for that. I still think they are a little unfounded until he's heard any PSA products for himself but whatever. Doesn't really matter and I honestly think guys need to treat him a little better.

With that said though I still think it says something that there's literally hundreds if not thousands of PSA subs on the market now and you might hear one bad remark for every 99 good ones and people need to take that into consideration when buying subs. The shear amount of subs that PSA has sold now in a little more then two years with pretty much zero complaints from actual owners speaks volumes about PSA and it subs. So any potential owners should also keep that in mind.
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post #57 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 10:47 PM
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As much as I hate to say it I think shady does get a pretty fair amount of grief from guys maybe a little self inflicted but hey at least he sticks to his guns. Guys should treat him a little more civil at times too, he doesn't name call like the way guys do it too him.

He's entitled to his opinions and I can't fault him for that. I still think they are a little unfounded until he's heard any PSA products for himself but whatever. Doesn't really matter and I honestly think guys need to treat him a little better.

With that said though I still think it says something that there's literally hundreds if not thousands of PSA subs on the market now and you might hear one bad remark for every 99 good ones and people need to take that into consideration when buying subs. The shear amount of subs that PSA has sold now in a little more then two years with pretty much zero complaints from actual owners speaks volumes about PSA and it subs. So any potential owners should also keep that in mind.

Meh...he is officially on my ignored list....I know my next sub will be a Hsu...because they're so awesome....rolleyes.gif

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post #58 of 116 Old 01-12-2014, 12:09 AM
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Meh...he is officially on my ignored list....I know my next sub will be a Hsu...because they're so awesome....rolleyes.gif

Hsus are pretty darn good too biggrin.gif

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #59 of 116 Old 01-12-2014, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

As much as I hate to say it I think shady does get a pretty fair amount of grief from guys maybe a little self inflicted but hey at least he sticks to his guns. Guys should treat him a little more civil at times too, he doesn't name call like the way guys do it too him.

Well said, jbrown15, and I agree. I also think ShadyJ acquits himself quite well on many subwoofer issues/topics and has helped several members make more informed decisions. I also feel that a more civil discourse is always warranted, but I'm going to bow out of this continuing saga. I have neither the time nor inclination to help perpetuate endless discussions about PSA's website information or their drivers. In the big scheme of what is important in life, this would rank at, or near, the bottom.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
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post #60 of 116 Old 01-12-2014, 02:29 AM
 
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Without casting aspersions on PSA, that statement shows the naivety commensurate with your join date. You really have no idea.

Actually, I do have an idea. I don't need your approval to know this to be a fact. Unbeknownst to you, as a consumer, I've been using this method to buy for a very long time and this method has proven to be an accurate indicator time and again. In the end, what you think of me has no bearing on my day, so, from the bottom of my naive heart, I wish you well.
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