SVS and CEA2010 max SPL - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so the reason I started this thread is due to my recent research that I did when deciding which subwoofer to purchase for an upgrade from my Polk PSW110.  There were about 6 subs that I had narrowed my choice down to from brands such as PSA, HSU, SVS, Outlaw, and Rythmik.

 

For some reason, I was drawn to SVS, even though most of what I saw indicated that they did not have the highest SPL capability in CEA2010 tests.  In part, this was due to my belief that I did not need the maximum output capability of any of the subs I was looking at and that they would all have more output than I needed.  So my decision ended up being SVS due to linearity, warranty, perceived quality, asthetics, and company stability.

 

However, despite being happy with my purchase(PB2000), there was always this little nagging doubt in the back of my head saying...hmm...i wonder if I should have gone with one of the subs that had higher output for about the same price...am I missing anything?   While browsing the forums this morning, I ran across this post.  It confirms that for me, the decision was right, and helps put to bed some of the doubt I have had about my choice based on output:

 

From Josh Ricci in a thread concerning the Seaton Submersive(since it has not been tested):

 

" There is far more to a good sub than just putting up big CEA-2010 burst numbers. Besides the other measurements there are also all of the intangibles like customer service, finishing, build quality, warranty period, price and aspects of the sound that may not show up in the typical measurements. For example SVS subs do not usually have the highest CEA-2010 output in their price class but there is a level of quality control and overall integration to them that is above and beyond most. Most of them simply will not make overtly bad noises even during CEA-2010 output testing. On the other hand a LOT of other subs are not sounding too good when driven to the max during CEA-2010. Most of them in fact. They may be still passing CEA-2010 but you can't tell this stuff from looking at the measurements. SVS have their limiter and system protections down to a science. Their measurements are always good, the distortion is held down and the data on their products is very accurate. They also make good design decisions with most of their subs that make sense for the product niche IMO. Some units I have encountered made me scratch my head and wonder whether anyone verified the final design or knew what they were doing in the first place. But despite doing nearly everything else well...because the SVS units are not the absolute loudest subs on the block anymore they seem to often get dismissed around here."

 

 

Anyway, thought I would share this info for anyone undecided about a new sub purchase as I was recently.

Tack and its phillip like this.
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 07:09 AM
 
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F25 looks impressive. Two for LFE duties would be interesting, with another 1 per side for left/right.
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post #3 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 07:10 AM
 
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On the other hand a LOT of other subs are not sounding too good when driven to the max during CEA-2010. Most of them in fact. They may be still passing CEA-2010 but you can't tell this stuff from looking at the measurements.

Just saying, that read more like an advertisement than a commentary. So who were these manufactures Ricci was bagging on? With other companies such as Rythmik, Hsu or PSA, I don't see anybody complaining about "the intangibles like customer service, finishing, build quality, warranty period, price and aspects of the sound that may not show up in the typical measurements."

If Ricci wanted to test a Seaton Submersive, he would have already. What happens to commentary when equal priced subs are compared? In commentary such as this, consumer experiences are thrown out the door as if they don't exist.

Nothing wrong with your purchase. Regarding a purchase such as what you made, what you think is all that matters. Once purchased, what Ricci thinks, doesn't matter. And no, I'm not bagging on Ricci but I am bagging on what was quoted forward as what was quoted forward, doesn't tell the whole story.

What are your room measurements showing you?

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post #4 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If Ricci wanted to test a Seaton Submersive, he would have already. 

That is not true.  Ricci stated he only has time to test about 12 subs a year...its a hobby, not his job.  And Mark Seaton has not sent a sub to Ricci for testing yet.

 

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post
 what was quoted forward, doesn't tell the whole story.

What are your room measurements showing you?
 

 

You are right Bee, however, in the context in which I posted, that being some concern over max CEA2010 SPL, this illustrates that those numbers are not the be all and end all of a subwoofers performance capabilities, and this quote from Josh simply solidified the opinion I had on this matter.

 

Now that is not to say that for someone else who needs extreme output for a very large space, or extremely loud listening levels, should weigh CEA2010 max SPL much more heavily than I did.

 

As far as in room measurments go, I regrettably am unable to do so at this point, although I plan to.   I have REW downloaded, but will have to wait a bit, as I plan on getting the UMIK-1(?) mic and mini dsp, as I do not have the ability to EQ my sub even if I do measure.  Last year we went a bit out of character and went on a bit of a spending spree with a kitchen remodel, a new home theater setup from the ground up, some various home upgrades, an international trip, a car for my 16 year old twins birthday, etc etc.  Savings obviously took a plunge and I am building back up to a comfortable level before I spend anymore.  I know its only a couple hundred bucks, but I have drawn the line in the sand until I hit my target.  Shouldn't be long.

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 07:41 AM
 
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Despite all that, I still wonder why all SVS subs do so poorly in maximum midbass output. I feel that's the main reason why SVS is "dismissed" as the loudest sub in their price category even though they have some of the highest deep bass output.

This is just not with SVS's current line up, but in all previous SVS subs too. The old PB12 Ultra had *higher* 20-40Hz output than 40-80Hz output confused.gif
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

That is not true.  Ricci stated he only has time to test about 12 subs a year...its a hobby, not his job.  And Mark Seaton has not sent a sub to Ricci for testing yet.

With all due respect. all of which I've know about for a couple of years and in my opinion, it's very true. Again, if Ricci wanted to test a Seaton Submersive, he would have and if Mark wanted to have his subs tested by now, he too would have. And based on personal conversations with Mark, he and I both know this to be accurate. Just saying, this point is moot and I'm not kicking over a fight as it's Mark's call what he chooses to do and I support both him and Ricci on this point so I won't say anymore on the Seaton/Ricci matter as I'm not trying to cause either Mark or Josh discomfort. These guys are doing a great job and unequivocally, I appreciated the effort they both put forth for all of our benefit.

(kiss, kiss, hug, hug)

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However, despite being happy with my purchase(PB2000), there was always this little nagging doubt in the back of my head saying...hmm...i wonder if I should have gone with one of the subs that had higher output for about the same price...am I missing anything?

Absolutely. But like everybody else, it all boils down to money and how much one has to throw at a problem. There's no crime or sin in this point. Subs are limited accordingly and that's just the way it is. Boo-hoo everybody. tongue.gif

As to higher output, if a properly dialed in pair, I can't say how much one is missing in output. In my opinion, the layperson's answer, after EQ'g effort to dial a subwoofer system into the acoustics of a room, can be found in FOTP when played back at +/-0dB MVC. With sound meter in hand, seeing what shows up as the max output on the sound meter readout during the barrel roll in the crash scene. That's as good as any layperson's output test as I can think of. My guess, one should get a reading in the 110dB to 115dB range if output is up to snuff and meets the needs of the room the subs are in. One should get a full THX reference capable readout. And if not, output numbers need to be adjusted accordingly. The operative words are: "meets the needs of the room the subs are in."

Your choice in SVS was an excellent choice. Your choice in the PB2000, unimpeachable. I'm not bagging on this point and unfortunately, we can't buy, try and enjoy subs like Jay Leno buys and enjoys his car collection. It's just not the same thing. My point, Ricci's comments read like an SVS endorsement and not a neutral commentary as he went out of his way to cast unnamed aspersions on unnamed subwoofer manufactures. That's a foul in my book and that's my only point.

In my opinion, you made an excellent choice and we have SVS to thank for releasing this model update. Enjoy your SB2000s and don't look back.

Quote:
Last year we went a bit out of character and went on a bit of a spending spree...snip...but I have drawn the line in the sand until I hit my target.

Good luck with that as doing so is absolutely no fun. tongue.gif

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:14 AM
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^^^beeman^^^

very good points....

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post #8 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

 But like everybody else, it all boils down to money and how much one has to throw at a problem.
 

It is a natural tendency to feel like ones own financial situation is naturally that of everyone else's.  For me, it boiled down to getting the right sub for my application, money was not a limiting factor.  For some it is, for others it is not.  That is not to say that I do not consider value.  But a Rythmik FV15HP or dual OS would have been frivolous, as the sub I have exceeds my needs.

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Good luck with that as doing so is absolutely no fun. tongue.gif
 

Definitely true, but discipline has its rewards in the end. :)

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 Again, if Ricci wanted to test a Seaton Submersive, he would have and if Mark wanted to have his subs tested by now, he too would have.

I concede this issue...I guess my point is actually what you are stating...Mark has not wanted his subs tested yet at this point.  I think it might be over concerns that it might cause demand to far exceed his production capability, and that he wants to be able to enjoy some work/life balance.

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^^^beeman^^^

very good points....

Thanks!

...biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:29 AM
 
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Definitely true, but discipline has its rewards in the end. smile.gif

We both officially retired, 17Nov2010....biggrin.gif

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I concede this issue...I guess my point is actually what you are stating...Mark has not wanted his subs tested yet at this point.  I think it might be over concerns that it might cause demand to far exceed his output capability, and that he wants to be able to enjoy some work/life balance.

In this case, it's not mine to challenge why he chooses to do so. His products are very well received and in the end, it's the customers who are the final arbiter, not the little pea that rattles around in my over-sized head. In my opinion, the truth is in the pudding and once one has personal testing ability, all that is not seen, will become known. Sucks really because as we all know, ignorance is bliss. I like bliss and being able to measure our room, sure kicked the [email protected] out of my bliss. tongue.gif

"Liar Liar"

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post #11 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


We both officially retired, 17Nov2010....biggrin.gif

In this case, it's not mine to challenge why he chooses to do so. His products are very well received and in the end, it's the customers who are the final arbiter, not the little pea that rattles around in my over-sized head.

In my opinion, the truth is in the pudding and once one has testing ability, all that is not seen, will become known. Sucks really because as we all know, ignorance is bliss. I like bliss and being able to measure our room, sure kicked the [email protected] out of my bliss. tongue.gif

"Liar Liar"


Congrats on retirement!  I would ultimately like to(be able to) do so at age 50, but of course, the only thing certain about life is that things are never certain!

 

I am looking forward to doing in room measurements.  Might even compare what happens if I run my PSW110 nearfield in conjunction, although the PB2000 did not sound good with that placement by itself compared to my front of the room corner placement.

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post #12 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 08:51 AM
 
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Congrats on retirement!  I would ultimately like to(be able to) do so at age 50, but of course, the only thing certain about life is that things are never certain!

Thanks! I was a bit slower than you. Didn't retire until I was 57. We saved twenty-six years for that day and three years before we retired we started buying things to be used in the first few years of retirement as yes, there's a two or three year financial adjustment period you never hear about. The short version on how I characterize retirement:

(the below is said in all respect to those who have yet to retire)

"Retirement? Every night is a Friday night and every morning is a Saturday morning."

Quote:
I am looking forward to doing in room measurements.  Might even compare what happens if I run my PSW110 nearfield in conjunction, although the PB2000 did not sound good with that placement by itself compared to my front of the room corner placement.

Beware, as a forewarning, when you start measuring the acoustics in your room, expectedly (aside from finding out how crappy things are), after great effort on your part, the first thing you'll find, you "need" that second PB2000.

...tongue.gif

(you have been warned)

...tongue.gif

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Beware, as a forewarning, when you start measuring the acoustics in your room, expectedly (aside from finding out how crappy things are), after great effort on your part, the first thing you'll find, you "need" that second PB2000.

...tongue.gif

(you have been warned)

...tongue.gif

-

If I unexpectedly end up being interested in a second sub, it would probably have to be the PB1000.  It would be nearfield, which should help with the lower output, and I believe the frequency response would match quite well.  Here's to hoping my single PB2000 is +/- 3 dB from 15-80 Hz in my room :D

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Here's to hoping my single PB2000 is +/- 3 dB from 15-80 Hz in my room biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

It is a natural tendency to feel like ones own financial situation is naturally that of everyone else's.  For me, it boiled down to getting the right sub for my application, money was not a limiting factor.  For some it is, for others it is not.  That is not to say that I do not consider value.  But a Rythmik FV15HP or dual OS would have been frivolous, as the sub I have exceeds my needs.

I concur with your comments, bear. When I first entered this maddening subwoofer fray, several subs really stood out for me. They were the JL Gotham (the most beautiful subwoofer I've ever seen up close and personal), the Paradigm Sub 2, Seaton Submersive, the JTR Caps and the PSA Triax (I didn't audition any of these). I ended up auditioning the Hsu ULS-15, Paradigm Sub 1, JL Fathom 212, SVS SB13-Ultra and the PSA XS30. I also wanted to audition a 15-inch Rythmik sealed design, but there was a 6 month back order. Could I afford any of 'em? Fortunate, I could with no problem. But like you, I wasn't looking for complete overkill, especially since I don't listen at reference levels. Common sense took over (as it usually does) and I chose what I thought was right for me and my environment, even knowing there was something better, and perhaps far better, out there. Now do I wonder if I made a mistake? Not in the least. I also had to have subwoofers that were attractive and fit my decor, not ungodly heavy nor huge, and provided solid sound, especially for music. I'm very happy with my decisions and I simply don't look back.

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Not being the voice of reason, fun and common sense are not intended to be used in the same sentence.

(that may be fun.....but common sense tells me not to go there)

Three Dog Night: "Momma Told Me Not To Come"

In the 60's, I didn't start to have fun until I grew up and stopped listening to Momma.

...tongue.gif

(come here big boy. Oh, I can't do that, Momma wouldn't approve and Momma don't approve of Daddy)

Common sense tells you not to go fast.

Jet Boat Crashes

Mudding Crashes

Atlanta snow storm

Snow Bowl 2013

Shall I continue? Common sense? Sometimes common sense tells us not to get out of bed in the morning.

Common sense? It's a great idea.....with built in limitations.

Common sense? Is overrated.

...tongue.gif

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post #17 of 23 Old 02-03-2014, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I concur with your comments, bear. When I first entered this maddening subwoofer fray, several subs really stood out for me. They were the JL Gotham (the most beautiful subwoofer I've ever seen up close and personal), the Paradigm Sub 2, Seaton Submersive, the JTR Caps and the PSA Triax (I didn't audition any of these). I ended up auditioning the Hsu ULS-15, Paradigm Sub 1, JL Fathom 212, SVS SB13-Ultra and the PSA XS30. I also wanted to audition a 15-inch Rythmik sealed design, but there was a 6 month back order. Could I afford any of 'em? Fortunate, I could with no problem. But like you, I wasn't looking for complete overkill, especially since I don't listen at reference levels. Common sense took over (as it usually does) and I chose what I thought was right for me and my environment, even knowing there was something better, and perhaps far better, out there. Now do I wonder if I made a mistake? Not in the least. I also had to have subwoofers that were attractive and fit my decor, not ungodly heavy nor huge, and provided solid sound, especially for music. I'm very happy with my decisions and I simply don't look back.

Wow, you got a chance to listen to a lot of nice subs, with a fair comparison right in your home.  What were your impressions of the various subs?

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"Retirement? Every night is a Friday night and every morning is a Saturday morning."

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Bee smile.gif

How about this for a retirement project for you... you should make t-shirts and/or decals with the above statement and sell them to the masses biggrin.gif

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Bee smile.gif

How about this for a retirement project for you... you should make t-shirts and/or decals with the above statement and sell them to the masses biggrin.gif

Thanks for the thoughts. I have lots of great comments for bumper stickers and T-shirts.

For a bumper sticker: "Warning: Conservative onboard.....are you feeling lucky?"

Above household chores, my wife and I are loving retirement and want nothing to do with being productive members of society.

...biggrin.gif

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post #20 of 23 Old 02-03-2014, 11:42 AM
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Wow, you got a chance to listen to a lot of nice subs, with a fair comparison right in your home.  What were your impressions of the various subs?


Unfortunately, I didn't audition the JL 212 Fathom or the Paradigm Sub 1 in my home. I went to L.A. to audition the Sub 1 (couldn't find a Sub 2 anywhere) and Covina to audition the Fathoms (that's where I saw the Gothams). There were problems in auditioning both these subs. It seems that no matter how expensive of equipment is on hand … and I mean there was some really esoteric equipment at these places, if subs aren't set up properly the audition is a failure. When auditioning the JLs, I was basically seated in a null area and the crossover to the mains wasn't good. At least in the Sub 1 audition, it was paired with Martin Logan Ethos (a spectacular speaker imo), crossed over properly, and while I was listening, I could swear I was sitting at home (I own Maggies). The Sub 1 performed very well, but when I gave them more demanding material to audition, they hadn't hooked up the right players, so it was a no go.

Normally, I would go back several times (I did that when auditioning speakers), but decided that the JL and Paradigms were too expensive for what I was seeking in a sub.

I did audition the SVS SB13 Ultra and the Hsu ULS-15 at home and at the same time and A-B compared them over several days. A month later I auditioned the PSA XS30. For its size, the Hsu was quite amazing for LFE and solid with music, except for basically one artist in which the Hsu failed to reproduce the deep parts adequately. Big surprise since it did so well with LFE content, but music is a different animal. I did a review of the PSA XS30 here on AVS that compared the PSA with the SVS. You can find it here: https://www.avsforum.com/products/xs30/reviews/4360
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post #21 of 23 Old 02-04-2014, 07:52 PM
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Here's to hoping my single PB2000 is +/- 3 dB from 15-80 Hz in my room biggrin.gif

I would just caution you to temper your expectations. Achieving +/- 3 dB from 15-80 Hz in room is quite a feat, especially for a single sub. Even with dual subs, getting within a window of +/- 3 dB is not easy.
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post #22 of 23 Old 02-04-2014, 08:16 PM
 
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To me, the ability to dig deep (10-15hz) with usable output is my sub requirement (not easy to do). I usually watch a movie from -10 to -15db MV with subs 6dbs hot and DynEQ on, my dual FV15hps are just that. You get the tactical sensation feeling that cannot be heard (read: awesome) when sub can dig low. One does not know what missing if his sub(s) can't produce usable output down low for movies that has ULF contents.
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-05-2014, 06:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassoholic View Post

To me, the ability to dig deep (10-15hz) with usable output is my sub requirement (not easy to do).

Unless willing to go the "Full Monte."

...tongue.gif

Fortunately, once done, you don't have to keep doing it over and over.
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