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post #31 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would look at a pair of Captivator 1000 passives with a behringer Inuke 6000. This setup could be had for less then 3k.

JTR Captivator 1000

At $1.300.00 USD each, plus amplifier, doesn't that qualify as a big budget jump over a pair of FV15HPs or PB12-Pluses?

...confused.gif

If the performance boost and budget is there, then it's worth it. How deep, how loud will the 1000 dig/achieve in a cooperating room?

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post #32 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

JTR Captivator 1000

At $1.300.00 USD each, plus amplifier, doesn't that qualify as a big budget jump over a pair of FV15HPs or PB12-Pluses?

...confused.gif

If the performance boost and budget is there, then it's worth it. How deep will the 1000 dig in a cooperative room?

A "decent" EP4000 can be found for cheap!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #33 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

JTR Captivator 1000

At $2.200.00 USD each, doesn't that qualify as a huge budget jump over a pair of FV15HPs or PB12-Pluses.?

...confused.gif

I said PASSIVE Captivator 1000's @ 1299.00 each x 2 = 2598.00. Add a Behringer I nuke 3000 amp for 229.00 to power them and your at 2827.00.
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post #34 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I said PASSIVE Captivator 1000's @ 1299.00 each x 2 = 2598.00. Add a Behringer I nuke 3000 amp for 229.00 to power them and your at 2827.00.

And indeed you did. I just finished editing my post to reflect this fact.

(not trying to split hairs as yes, I screwed up my post......originally you posted about the "behringer Inuke 6000" which I found at $400.00 USD.)
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post #35 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And indeed you did. I just finished editing my post to reflect this fact.

(not trying to split hairs as yes, I screwed up my post......originally you posted about the "behringer Inuke 6000" which I found at $400.00 USD.)

Yes I originally said a inuke 6000.00 which amazon has for 349.00 shipped. Then I looked up the power specs and realized a Inuke 3000 woud drive both subs with 880watts rms x2 @ 4ohms for 229.00 and has built in dsp. A EP4000 would work too...there are plenty of amp options. I would expect flat to 12-14hz with substantially more output then both offerings. The reason they do not get recomended is becsuse they are passive and that does not seem to be popular in the turn key community.

If I had the budget when I was in the market these would be in my room.
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post #36 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes I originally said a inuke 6000.00 which amazon has for 349.00 shipped. Then I looked up the power specs and realized a Inuke 3000 woud drive both subs with 880watts rms x2 @ 4ohms for 229.00 and has built in dsp. A EP4000 would work too...there are plenty of amp options. I would expect flat to 12-14hz with substantially more output then both offerings. The reason they do not get recomended is becsuse they are passive and that does not seem to be popular in the turn key community.

Two cap 1000s + the inukes dsp would be the winner in my books. Just the DSP itself is what gets me lol.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #37 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If I had the budget when I was in the market these would be in my room.

Good enough for me. I'll sell the FV15HPs and......oh wait, I'm one of those "turn key" people you were writing about. tongue.gif
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post #38 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 07:47 PM
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Good enough for me. I'll sell the FV15HPs and......oh wait, I'm one of those "turn key" people you were writing about. tongue.gif

Dont't get me wrong any one of these choices would be great...I am just recomending something outside of what normally is pushed on these forums. I looked at the Cap1000's back when sub shopping and there was 2 reasons I did not buy them.

1) was not in my budget

2) I wanted turn key with plate amp so I could run wireless sub links.

After spending a bit of time over at the diy section I realize that plate amps are really over rated. Much easier and cost effective to replace a external amp if there is a failure outside of the warranty. Running speaker wire is no different then running a Sub cable.

That being said the FV15HP is my sub of choice in its price range for a turn key sub solution.
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post #39 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 08:32 PM
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I don't want to hijack this thread but makes sense to ask my questions here instead of creating a new one.

As far as SQ and that "punch in the chest" people talk about, which is the better of these two? I know that the RV15HP will have greater output . How does distortion factor in if you can't even hear that range. but instead, feel it? I'm 50/50 with music/movies so I want best of both worlds :/. And I read that SVS uses better drivers/amps which is why they can get away with smaller drivers and therefore, has very good SQ.

I liked the PC12-NSD that I did have but I was constantly hitting that limiter with music...like all the time lol. And it didn't really give me that 'rumble' or punch in the chest with music or movies.

Currently, I am waiting to use a $700 credit with SVS but will probably get their Ultra speaker system so this gives me options for a different brand sub. The RV15HP will just BARELY fit where my old PC12-NSD was. I know I'll probably never use the output that that thing has to offer as my room is only about 1200cf, but, that 15" driver and SPL is very attractive in knowing it'll be there if I ever want to rattle my neighbors wine glasses in his cupboards haha.. I do feel the PC12+ will provide more than enough output but will it give that punch in the chest and tight, clean bass for music as well? The PC12+ is cheaper, and A LOT easier to move [I'll have to carry the sub up three flights of stairs mad.gif]. So that is a factor as well. And, If the PC12+ isn't enough, than I can upgrade for the PC13 Ultra later on. I'm leaning more towards the + and staying with SVS so the only way I'd pick up the RV15HP instead is if the SQ and tightness is superior to what SVS has to offer.

Thanks for the help smile.gif.

Can anyone comment on this? Think my post got skipped by being last on the page :/
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post #40 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 08:41 PM
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What about the Seaton Submersive HP...any idea how one of these would compare to duals of the Rythmiks?
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post #41 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

What about the Seaton Submersive HP...any idea how one of these would compare to duals of the Rythmiks?

For $3800ish (not including shipping), you could get a SubM HP + slave biggrin.gif. SQ wise, can't say as I haven't heard a FV15HP but it seems like the Caps and SubMs are the benchmark of subs for SQ and output.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #42 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

For $3800ish (not including shipping), you could get a SubM HP + slave biggrin.gif. SQ wise, can't say as I haven't heard a FV15HP but it seems like the Caps and SubMs are the benchmark of subs for SQ and output.

For about $4000 and I think it include shipping to anywhere in Canada/USA you got the Funk Audio 18.3 or for $3000ish the 18.0.

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post #43 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 09:17 PM
 
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Dont't get me wrong any one of these choices would be great...I am just recomending something outside of what normally is pushed on these forums.

I'm kidding. tongue.gif

(i whole heartily support your decision to do so)
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post #44 of 109 Old 02-09-2014, 09:22 PM
 
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What about the Seaton Submersive HP...any idea how one of these would compare to duals of the Rythmiks?

How do you want to score the comparison? Two HPs and the two FV15HPs lose. Price/performance, two FV15HPs kicks a single HP's butt. Now the rub, my understanding, the HP has the ability to dig deeper but at what level of output, nobody knows as Seaton won't put their subs out for measurement.

(the above is a statement of fact, not a challenge of behavior)
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post #45 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 04:35 AM
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I'm in the same boat as you (the OP). I'm leaning toward SVS due to the additional three years on the amplifier warranty. I feel that if the other companies had confidence in their product, they would extend their warranties as well. Two years seems awfully short for a product this expensive. Also keep in mind that shipping for the SVS is already included in the price. For the Rythmics, you have to add shipping cost into your budget. 


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post #46 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 04:38 AM
 
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5 years warranty over here for SVS. Considering the plate amp costs £300+ worth it. A few BASH amps have been dying recently, one reason why I got rid of mine...any why I'm buying a new ampliifer as pretty old now.
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post #47 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 06:28 AM
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Brian once mentioned that he was willing to offer an extended warranty. You may want to contact him if warranty is a concern to you.

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I'm in the same boat as you (the OP). I'm leaning toward SVS due to the additional three years on the amplifier warranty. I feel that if the other companies had confidence in their product, they would extend their warranties as well. Two years seems awfully short for a product this expensive. Also keep in mind that shipping for the SVS is already included in the price. For the Rythmics, you have to add shipping cost into your budget. 
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5 years warranty over here for SVS. Considering the plate amp costs £300+ worth it. A few BASH amps have been dying recently, one reason why I got rid of mine...any why I'm buying a new ampliifer as pretty old now.
Brian once mentioned that he was willing to offer an extended warranty. You can contact him about that if it is a concern to you.

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post #48 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 06:40 AM
 
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Never bothered with extended warranty, I'd rather put that yearly fee into a new thing. £200 for 3 years for a £2000 av amplifier
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post #49 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 07:03 AM
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The way I look at it is that nothing is free. SVS figures the price of the 5 year warranty and free shipping both ways into their prices somehow. Other companies just pass the savings to the customer. I am not claiming one way is better than the other. I did not bother with an extended warranty myself, I use my discover credit card with my electronics purchases and it offers an extra 1 year warranty beyond the manufacturer's so the 2 year amp warranty essentially becomes 3.
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Never bothered with extended warranty, I'd rather put that yearly fee into a new thing. £200 for 3 years for a £2000 av amplifier

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post #50 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 07:15 AM
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The way I look at it is that nothing is free. SVS figures the price of the 5 year warranty and free shipping both ways into their prices somehow. Other companies just pass the savings to the customer. I am not claiming one way is better than the other. I did not bother with an extended warranty myself, I use my discover credit card with my electronics purchases and it offers an extra 1 year warranty beyond the manufacturer's so the 2 year amp warranty essentially becomes 3.

Nothing is free.....you are 100000% correct. Everything is figured in beforehand.

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post #51 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 08:03 AM
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5 years warranty over here for SVS. Considering the plate amp costs £300+ worth it. A few BASH amps have been dying recently, one reason why I got rid of mine...any why I'm buying a new ampliifer as pretty old now.


My belief is that SVS is able to comfortably offer this warranty due to their aggressive limiters.  Perhaps the chance of damaging the sub or overloading the amp is less with this design philosophy.  They won't always have the absolute maximum peak SPL compared to other subs in their classes, but they will always play clean and distortion free at their limits. 

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post #52 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 08:43 AM
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My belief is that SVS is able to comfortably offer this warranty due to their aggressive limiters.  Perhaps the chance of damaging the sub or overloading the amp is less with this design philosophy.  They won't always have the absolute maximum peak SPL compared to other subs in their classes, but they will always play clean and distortion free at their limits. 

What about PSA? They offer a 5yr warranty and do not use an aggresive limiter...they do employ a soft limiter. And for the record, any well designed sub does not need a aggressive limiter for reliability. There are other ways around this and one example is shaping the frequency response at max levels. Yes the SVS subs will play clean and distortion free at thier limits at the cost of squashing dynamics. The best way to approach the situation is to buy enough subwoofage so the sub will never be pushed near its limits...then you do not need agressive limiting.
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post #53 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:01 AM
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What about PSA? They offer a 5yr warranty and do not use an aggresive limiter...they do employ a soft limiter. And for the record, any well designed sub does not need a aggressive limiter for reliability. There are other ways around this and one example is shaping the frequency response at max levels. Yes the SVS subs will play clean and distortion free at thier limits at the cost of squashing dynamics. The best way to approach the situation is to buy enough subwoofage so the sub will never be pushed near its limits...then you do not need agressive limiting.
I am confused by this new term as I have seen it used a few times lately. Doesn't the listening material dictate dynamics if the optimal goal is to have a "flat" curve across one's system? If one doesn't desire a flat curve then isn't his argument a slippery slope?confused.gif Old head just trying to understand the concept.
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post #54 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

I've narrowed it down to duals of these 2 models also. Cost is pretty much same for both (accounting for the Rythmik shipping). One benefit of the SVS is they cost the same in piano black whereas the Rythmik's up charge for this.

I have a larger open-concept room and based on what I've heard, the Rythmik's extra output would be superior for this application. Can anyone confirm this?

If your down to 3 of 4 db being the make it or break it point, you are probably looking at the wrong subs anyway. Ideally you want more headroom than that. That being said, I would view both as being similar in output and would concentrate on other details of each sub to make a decision. Good luck. smile.gif
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post #55 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:11 AM
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I am confused by this new term as I have seen it used a few times lately. Doesn't the listening material dictate dynamics if the optimal goal is to have a "flat" curve across one's system? If one doesn't desire a flat curve then isn't his argument a slippery slope?confused.gif Old head just trying to understand the concept.

Yes source content dictates the dynamics sent to the sub, however it is up to the sub to replicate it. Take the PB-12NSD thathas a limiter that starts kicking in around 105db. Ok so you are watching a blu ray at spirited levels, the NSD is constantly pumping around 103db, but all of a sudden the source spits out content that demands a +8db peak, well there will be roughly 5db that is filtered out from the agvressive limiter kickimg. I dont think that many realize that reference lever is not just 115db(continous), it is actually 121db(peak) to handle the peaks source content delivers during reference playback...that is what dynamics are. Flat sound does not sound great. Again the best approach is to buy enough subwoofage that the sub has plenty of head room and it never comes close to its limits. That will offere the best dynamics and sound quality. My post is not to imply the SVS sub is bad, I am just pointing out there is pros and cons to every design and the whole "linearity" is marketing at best.
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I dont think that many realize that reference lever is not just 115db(continous), it is actually 121db(peak) to handle the peaks source content delivers during reference playback...that is what dynamics are.

Not arguing. I thought reference for subwoofers was 95dB plus 20dB headroom. This is the first I've read about 121dB being peak subwoofer reference level playback. confused.gif

To get max dynamics, we added a universal blu-ray player, bitstream to the AVR and let the AVR decode to PCM and then use the best CODEC format such as "DTS-HD Master Audio."
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post #57 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:18 AM
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What about PSA? They offer a 5yr warranty and do not use an aggresive limiter...they do employ a soft limiter. And for the record, any well designed sub does not need a aggressive limiter for reliability.

Well that depends. Certain designs lend themselves to a kind of passive limiting through the combination of box, amp and driver, and some will charge past their design limits into damage without some kind of control. Neither approach makes one or the other a "bad" design.
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There are other ways around this and one example is shaping the frequency response at max levels. Yes the SVS subs will play clean and distortion free at thier limits at the cost of squashing dynamics.
Shaping = limiting? Squash? That's kind of dramatic.
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The best way to approach the situation is to buy enough subwoofage so the sub will never be pushed near its limits...then you do not need agressive limiting.
Agreed.
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post #58 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:19 AM
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My opinion, and I am aware that I may be wrong, so feel free to offer a more educated viewpoint:

 

Lets say that a given svs sub will play clean, distortion free, and uncompressed(unaffected by any limiter) up to 105 dB, but that over 105, some compression kicks in.  If you listen at such a level that peak SPL does not exceed 105 dB, the sub will perform flawlessly with no restriction or reduction in dynamics etc., and there should not be much of a difference  compared to a sub that will play to say, 115 dB.

 

Now, if for example, you have a lot of hearing loss and have to listen much much louder than normal in order to enjoy a movie, or have a space that is too large for the sub to fill, and you exceed this output level, then not being able to play louder than 105 or 110 dB without compression or digital limiting, then you will have somewhat reduced performance.

 

In this case, you would be better served with a subwoofer that is capable of a higher max SPL.

 

So in summary, if you will not exceed the capability of an SVS sub, chances are you will have a sub with less distortion than most competitors along with a flatter frequency response.  Of course, in room acoustics will affect this and one would likely benefit from some form of sub eq to correct in room response.

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post #59 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:20 AM
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Not arguing. I thought reference for subwoofers was 95dB plus 20dB headroom. This is the first I've read about 121dB being peak subwoofer reference level playback. confused.gif

Reference level is 105db for mains and 115db for subs. It is recomended for subs to have 6db of headroom above reference to cleany handle those peaks. Source content does not maintain a flat level.
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post #60 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

Well that depends. Certain designs lend themselves to a kind of passive limiting through the combination of box, amp and driver, and some will charge past their design limits into damage without some kind of control. Neither approach makes one or the other a "bad" design.
Shaping = limiting? Squash? That's kind of dramatic.
Agreed.

I agree Tack, the point I am trying to make is one is not better then the other. PSA gets bashed by a few for the way it handles its limiting but SVS always gets praises for its approach. I am just trying to point out that aggressive limiting does not mean its better even thos it looks better on paper.
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