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post #61 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

It is recomended for subs to have 6db of headroom above reference to cleany handle those peaks. Source content does not maintain a flat level.

Got it......extra headroom so the headroom won't bump it's head on the ceiling. tongue.gif

(man! 6dB headroom above 20dB of headroom. That's a bunch of extra watts to get that extra 6dB of headroom so the headroom will be able to breath; not distort)

Works for me. tongue.gif

(why so much headroom? well, you have to see the amplifier because at reference, it looks all squirreled up like it's getting ready to drop a deuce and I don't want to see the subwoofer's amplifier do that)

...tongue.gif

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post #62 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes source content dictates the dynamics sent to the sub, however it is up to the sub to replicate it. Take the PB-12NSD thathas a limiter that starts kicking in around 105db. Ok so you are watching a blu ray at spirited levels, the NSD is constantly pumping around 103db, but all of a sudden the source spits out content that demands a +8db peak, well there will be roughly 5db that is filtered out from the agvressive limiter kickimg. I dont think that many realize that reference lever is not just 115db(continous), it is actually 121db(peak) to handle the peaks source content delivers during reference playback...that is what dynamics are. Flat sound does not sound great. Again the best approach is to buy enough subwoofage that the sub has plenty of head room and it never comes close to its limits. That will offere the best dynamics and sound quality. My post is not to imply the SVS sub is bad, I am just pointing out there is pros and cons to every design and the whole "linearity" is marketing at best.
Sounds like a black hole. SVS limiting umpteenth peak vs Other brand either struggling to recreate it/distorting. Performance expectation is not a brick wall. Hence, multiples/open baffles/etc. I actually appreciate their design philosophy. It represents a "floor" in terms of quality in all aspects at all price points offered. I do thoroughly "get" what you are saying though.
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post #63 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

My opinion, and I am aware that I may be wrong, so feel free to offer a more educated viewpoint:

Lets say that a given svs sub will play clean, distortion free, and uncompressed(unaffected by any limiter) up to 105 dB, but that over 105, some compression kicks in.  If you listen at such a level that peak SPL does not exceed 105 dB, the sub will perform flawlessly with no restriction or reduction in dynamics etc., and there should not be much of a difference  compared to a sub that will play to say, 115 dB.

Now, if for example, you have a lot of hearing loss and have to listen much much louder than normal in order to enjoy a movie, or have a space that is too large for the sub to fill, and you exceed this output level, then not being able to play louder than 105 or 110 dB without compression or digital limiting, then you will have somewhat reduced performance.

In this case, you would be better served with a subwoofer that is capable of a higher max SPL.

So in summary, if you will not exceed the capability of an SVS sub, chances are you will have a sub with less distortion than most competitors along with a flatter frequency response.  Of course, in room acoustics will affect this and one would likely benefit from some form of sub eq to correct in room response.

Most other ID subs will play just as distortion free and clean if you turn it down a few DB from its cea2010 max burs score. Compare the NSD and XV15 105 db sweeps. The point being made is the SVS looks better on paper when looking at CEA2010 max burst thd sweeps but the reality is the SVS squashes its dynamics when the limiter is employed to maintain a flat low distortion FR. The other subs will allow a bit more thd in exchange for output. At those levels with all speakers engaged you would never hear the difference between 10 or 20% 2nd and 3rd order thd. On a test bench with the just the sub playing sine waves then yes you might hear a difference, but most of us do not use our subs that way.

Edit*

I do agree with you tho that SVS probably uses this design approach due to its customer base and for long term reliability. I am only trying to point out that its not neccessarily better then its competitiors. There is pros and cons to both...again imo the best approach is to buy enough subwoofage so the limits are never reached for whatever ID sub one chooses to purchase.
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post #64 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:32 AM
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I agree Tack, the point I am trying to make is one is not better then the other. PSA gets bashed by a few for the way it handles its limiting but SVS always gets praises for its approach. I am just trying to point out that aggressive limiting does not mean its better even thos it looks better on paper.



I get you, there are different paths to the desired end result. If I was manufacturing these things, and selling to a forum full of dudes with spl meters, I'd limit the hell out of them. smile.gif
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post #65 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Got it......extra headroom so the headroom won't bump it's head on the ceiling. tongue.gif

(man! 6dB headroom above 20dB of headroom. That's a bunch of extra watts to get that extra 6dB of headroom so the headroom will be able to breath; not distort)

Works for me. tongue.gif

(why so much headroom? well, you have to see the amplifier because at reference, it looks all squirreled up like it's getting ready to drop a deuce and I don't want to see the subwoofer's amplifier do that)

...tongue.gif

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Bear in mind that this is only a concern if you want clean reference capable playback. Most of us here do not listen at those levels so its no concern.
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post #66 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:34 AM
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I get you, there are different paths to the desired end result. If I was manufacturing these things, and selling to a forum full of dudes with spl meters, I'd limit the hell out of them. smile.gif

That is a good point!! smile.gif
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post #67 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Bear in mind that this is only a concern if you want clean reference capable playback. Most of us here do not listen at those levels so its no concern.

Working with you, like you bought three, I bought two. Now neither of us have to deal with these issues. biggrin.gif

When nobody like the wife is around, I love listening at full reference as my understanding, that's how it was mastered and meant to be listened to. When the wife is watching, it's -10dB or -15dB on the MVC. frown.gif

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post #68 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Working with you, like you bought three, I bought two. Now neither of us have to deal with these issues. biggrin.gif

When nobody like the wife is around, I love listening at full reference as my understanding, that's how it was mastered and meant to be listened to. When the wife is watching, it's -10dB or -15dB on the MVC. frown.gif

-

Pretty much...I wanted to have enough headroom so the subs are not working nearly is hard to reach my desired listening levels. Oh and its only 10db not 20. Again reference for your mains is 105db, its right on audioholics site. I believe it was the masters list of bass movies thread where I read Luke K or somebody say that some movies will have bass peaks 6db above the listening level. So if your running the subs reference(115db) they can be called upon to deliver 121db.
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post #69 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 09:57 AM
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No that is not correct and you are missing the point. Most other ID subs will play just as distortion free and clean if you turn it down a few DB from its cea2010 max burs score. Compare the NSD and XV15 105 db sweeps. The point being made is the SVS looks better on paper when looking at CEA2010 max burst thd sweeps but the reality is the SVS squashes its dynamics when the limiter is employed to maintain a flat low distortion FR. The other subs will allow a bit more thd in exchange for output. At those levels with all speakers engaged you would never hear the difference between 10 or 20% 2nd and 3rd order thd. On a test bench with the just the sub playing sine waves then yes you might hear a difference, but most of us do not use our subs that way.

First of all, thanks for sharing your viewpoint and knowledge.  I partially agree with what you are saying.  I can see how allowing a sub to exceed "near zero distortion" spl's can be beneficial in order to not compress the signal at loud levels.  However, i totally disagree that all subs will play as distortion free as the svs at say, a 105 dB sweep.  

 

Look for example, at the total harmonic distortion sweeps of the pb12 and the xv15 at the 105 dB sweep level.  The pb12 is near zero and does not approach even 5% until well under 20Hz.  The xv15 has substantially more distortion even at the 105 dB level, which is well below its output limits.  

 

Now look at the 110 dB sweep.  At this level, the pb12 is being affected by its limiter, but distortion is mainly still under 5%, and under 10% down to 18Hz.  Now look at the XV15's distortion at this sweep level.  HUGE difference, although the XV15 does allow much higher SPL, and apparently the distortion level, although reaching 20-40% at the 110 dB level, does not necessarily sound bad.

 

So it is obviously different design goals.  The SVS limits output before allowing much of any THD.  Other companies seem to allow a lot more THD while acheiving higher maximum SPL.  Not saying either is right or wrong, just different.  But it does appear that SVS maintains lower distortion even at lower SPL's.

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post #70 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:03 AM
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Interesting. I wonder how distortion affects dynamics? Does it affect/quash/destroy/devastate/annihilate dynamics long before the limiter? biggrin.gif I kid!tongue.gif
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post #71 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:05 AM
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First of all, thanks for sharing your viewpoint and knowledge.  I partially agree with what you are saying.  I can see how allowing a sub to exceed "near zero distortion" spl's can be beneficial in order to not compress the signal at loud levels.  However, i totally disagree that all subs will play as distortion free as the svs at say, a 105 dB sweep.  

Look for example, at the total harmonic distortion sweeps of the pb12 and the xv15 at the 105 dB sweep level.  The pb12 is near zero and does not approach even 5% until well under 20Hz.  The xv15 has substantially more distortion even at the 105 dB level, which is well below its output limits.  

Now look at the 110 dB sweep.  At this level, the pb12 is being affected by its limiter, but distortion is mainly still under 5%, and under 10% down to 18Hz.  Now look at the XV15's distortion at this sweep level.  HUGE difference, although the XV15 does allow much higher SPL, and apparently the distortion level, although reaching 20-40% at the 110 dB level, does not necessarily sound bad.

You are not looking at the charts correctly. The XV15 has no distortion or compression at 105db...it starts to exhibit some compression in the 110db sweep where the PB12 is completely out of gas by that point. The XV15 was pushed to 115db sweep where it was compressing a significant amount and only increased in output slightly in the 50-60hz range. The PB12 could not even play a 115db sweep at any frequency. When you look at the distortion charts the XV15 is pretty much all 2nd order which is almost non existent to the human ear. Read the know-how on data bass, Ricci explains this. 4th order should be paid more closely attention to and both are pretty low. Also these tests are performed oudoors with sine waves. In room both subs will have more output with lower distortion.
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post #72 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:12 AM
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Interesting. I wonder how distortion affects dynamics? Does it affect/quash/destroy/devastate/annihilate dynamics long before the limiter? biggrin.gif I kid!tongue.gif

No it does not and I see where you are going with this. Cea2010 allows a certain amount of distortion for a reason. Alsonyou need to know and understand what you are looking at when reading the data-bass charts. The Know-How tab over at DB does a good job at explaining this. There is more to looking at thd graphs then simply comparing how much the 2 subs in comparison has. First one sub can have 2 times the 2nd order thd and less 3rd order and sound better then the other. Second the thd graphs need to be looked at closely for dips and uneveness in the thd sweep. A slight bump in the graph can show a problem area...also the waterfall and spectogram graphs need to looked at. smile.gif
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post #73 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:13 AM
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You are not looking at the charts correctly. The XV15 has no distortion or compression at 105db...it starts to exhibit some compression in the 110db sweep where the PB12 is completely out of gas by that point. The XV15 was pushed to 115db sweep where it was compressing a significant amount and only increased in output slightly in the 50-60hz range. The PB12 could not even play a 115db sweep at any frequency. When you look at the distortion charts the XV15 is pretty much all 2nd order which is almost non existent to the human ear. Read the know-how on data bass, Ricci explains this. 4th order should be paid more closely attention to and both are pretty low. Also these tests are performed oudoors with sine waves. In room both subs will have more output with lower distortion.

Totally agree with the points you are making on output, the XV15 plays much louder before compression kicks in.  Also agree that 2nd harmonic distortion does not seem to be harmful as far as sound goes.  However, when I look at the THD charts for both subs side by side, the XV15 has much higher distortion even at the 105 dB level than the PB12, although most of it does seem to be 2nd order.  

 

I am not saying that limiting output on the SVS in order to keep 2nd order harmonic distortion extremely low is the perfect design philosophy.  In fact, I believe they would be a bit better served by allowing a little bit more 2nd order THD in exchange for a bit more max SPL before their limiters kicked in while still keeping things relatively clean.  Perhaps we will see this with the PB2000 when it gets tested, but this seems to be SVS design approach of restricting output before much of any THD is allowed.

 

Oh, also, you mention 4th order harmonics.  I thought it was the odd, as in 3rd, 5th, that are the most objectionable components, or is this wrong?

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post #74 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:15 AM
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Totally agree with the points you are making on output, the XV15 plays much louder before compression kicks in.  Also agree that 2nd harmonic distortion does not seem to be harmful as far as sound goes.  However, when I look at the THD charts for both subs side by side, the XV15 has much higher distortion even at the 105 dB level than the PB12, although most of it does seem to be 2nd order.  

I am not saying that limiting output on the SVS in order to keep 2nd order harmonic distortion extremely low is the perfect design philosophy.  In fact, I believe they would be a bit better served by allowing a little bit more 2nd order THD in exchange for a bit more max SPL before their limiters kicked in while still keeping things relatively clean.  Perhaps we will see this with the PB2000 when it gets tested, but this seems to be SVS design approach of restricting output before much of any THD is allowed.

Thank you!! Thats all I was trying to say...not saying either sub is bad, they both have pros and cons to thier approach.
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post #75 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:18 AM
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Thank you!! Thats all I was trying to say...not saying either sub is bad, they both have pros and cons to thier approach.

Yep was not trying to argue in any way, just enjoying the exchange of information, and I am always open for new information that may alter my opinions or broaden my knowledge.

 

I leaned towards SVS when I purchased mainly becuase I felt like I would not be exceeding the output level they offered.  However, I definitely would have leaned another direction had this not been the case.  I can see where the aggressive limiter may not necessarily a good thing for some peoples needs.

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No it does not and I see where you are going with this. Cea2010 allows a certain amount of distortion for a reason. Alsonyou need to know and understand what you are looking at when reading the data-bass charts. The Know-How tab over at DB does a good job at explaining this. There is more to looking at thd graphs then simply comparing how much the 2 subs in comparison has. First one sub can have 2 times the 2nd order thd and less 3rd order and sound better then the other. Second the thd graphs need to be looked at closely for dips and uneveness in the thd sweep. A slight bump in the graph can show a problem area...also the waterfall and spectogram graphs need to looked at. I am not going to go into a huge debate over this. I have made a point to about the "lineraity" of X sub, if you do not agree with my post then post some information proving what I said wrong. smile.gif
We live to bust you and that Bee dude's chops. tongue.gif The term "quashing dynamics" should be avoided for some mico-nano peak at umpteenth playback level. All subs have their limit even without limiters of some kind. That's why so many of you folks have 2-3-4 of them. I still think the SVS is a superior sub in terms of quality, reliability(only time will tell for the PSA subs), and tuning options. The PSA may be a better value, relatively speaking. For the record, I did try a XS15 and did not care for the sound. I am stuck on sealed subs(here we go again) and debated between the Seaton and XS30. My back and knees chose for me and I got the Seaton hoping that I wouldn't have to try another sub. Dual XS30s may have been nice but I just could not imagine my last sub being less than the Epik Empire in terms of sound quality.
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post #77 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:44 AM
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Speaking of reference level playback, I have to say, it is not something I have any desire or concern of seeking as any sort of goal.  With the house to myself, I started watching underworld evolution at 0 volume on my AVR and it was just not enjoyable.  If I were in a movie theater with the sound that loud, I would have left the theater.  With my family, -15 is generally a bit too loud for them to enjoy, -10 is about as loud as I enjoyed watching alone so far today.

 

For those that enjoy watching at reference volume, that is certainly their prerogative and to each his own, I don't mean this to imply that anyone should not enjoy listening at that level.  Luckily for me and my wallet, I am happier watching at lower volume. :)

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Oh, also, you mention 4th order harmonics.  I thought it was the odd, as in 3rd, 5th, that are the most objectionable components, or is this wrong?

Even order harmonics are considered less objectionable in music, because they can sound like a natural component of an instruments timbre. Since even order harmonics, especially second order harmonic is simply one octave up from the fundamental, it can sound in harmony with the fundamental. This is more true for some instruments than others. A stringed instrument is harmonically rich, so second order harmonic distortion wouldn't be very noticeable with something like a violin or electric guitar. However, you may notice it on other instruments with a simpler sound or on some vocals.

Odd order harmonics are musically 'out of tune' with the fundamental to human perception, so they are more noticeable in music. Outside of music though, none of this has much bearing. Harmonic distortion is simply added sound.
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post #79 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:46 AM
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Yep was not trying to argue in any way, just enjoying the exchange of information, and I am always open for new information that may alter my opinions or broaden my knowledge.

I leaned towards SVS when I purchased mainly becuase I felt like I would not be exceeding the output level they offered.  However, I definitely would have leaned another direction had this not been the case.  I can see where the aggressive limiter may not necessarily a good thing for some peoples needs.
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Oh, also, you mention 4th order harmonics.  I thought it was the odd, as in 3rd, 5th, that are the most objectionable components, or is this wrong?

Hey same here Bear!! I am glad to have you apart of the forum smile.gif

Yes odd is the most objectionable components but 4th order being so far up in the FR range is very noticeable. Read the Know-How at data-bass.com. I had to read it a few times and still go back and sift through it to understand all the info. Basicall what I gather from Ricci's explanation is 2nd and 3rd order thd is not a huge issue long as it is kept under cea2010 passing limits. The main thing to look for is dips in the thd plot which will mimic a change in the subs behavior.
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post #80 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:49 AM
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We live to bust you and that Bee dude's chops. tongue.gif The term "quashing dynamics" should be avoided for some mico-nano peak at umpteenth playback level. All subs have their limit even without limiters of some kind. That's why so many of you folks have 2-3-4 of them. I still think the SVS is a superior sub in terms of quality, reliability(only time will tell for the PSA subs), and tuning options. The PSA may be a better value, relatively speaking. For the record, I did try a XS15 and did not care for the sound. I am stuck on sealed subs(here we go again) and debated between the Seaton and XS30. My back and knees chose for me and I got the Seaton hoping that I wouldn't have to try another sub. Dual XS30s may have been nice but I just could not imagine my last sub being less than the Epik Empire in terms of sound quality.

I am not the onet that created the term "squashing dynamics" it was Tom V. Who use to build and design the subs you so praise....

Here is a good read for ya.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/60450-official-power-sound-audio-psa-thread-36.html

Read thru this page.
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Speaking of reference level playback, I have to say, it is not something I have any desire or concern of seeking as any sort of goal.  With the house to myself, I started watching underworld evolution at 0 volume on my AVR and it was just not enjoyable.  If I were in a movie theater with the sound that loud, I would have left the theater.  With my family, -15 is generally a bit too loud for them to enjoy, -10 is about as loud as I enjoyed watching alone so far today.

For those that enjoy watching at reference volume, that is certainly their prerogative and to each his own, I don't mean this to imply that anyone should not enjoy listening at that level.  Luckily for me and my wallet, I am happier watching at lower volume. smile.gif

You would want a system capable of playing Reference cleanly if you try to listen to it that loud. Chances are you were running into all kinds of compressed peaks and harmonic distortion, that will make anything sound a lot more obnoxious than it is supposed to be. The harmonic distortion shifts a chunk of the sound to a higher pitch and makes it much harsher. Clean reference playback is a lot easier on the ears. Many commercial theaters are playing back at reference levels, and you can tolerate them because distortion is kept way down. One more thing, the movie soundtrack will be a factor in its tolerability at high volumes as well. Underworld is probably mixed really hot, it wouldn't be my go-to movie for reference playback.
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post #82 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:58 AM
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You would want a system capable of playing Reference cleanly if you try to listen to it that loud. Chances are you were running into all kinds of compressed peaks and harmonic distortion, that will make anything sound a lot more obnoxious than it is supposed to be. The harmonic distortion shifts a chunk of the sound to a higher pitch and makes it much harsher. Clean reference playback is a lot easier on the ears. Many commercial theaters are playing back at reference levels, and you can tolerate them because distortion is kept way down. One more thing, the movie soundtrack will be a factor in its tolerability at high volumes as well. Underworld is probably mixed really hot, it wouldn't be my go-to movie for reference playback.

Thanks for this feedback.  Here is some more information about my setup:

 

AVR:  Yamaha RXV-375

Mains:  HSU HB1.2

Center:  HSU HC1.2

Sub:  PB2000

Blu Ray: Sony 5100

 

In your opinion, should i be experiencing much distortion at reference level?  I believe the AVR is probably the weakest link in my system.  However, whether there is excess distortion present at this level or not, I find the volume to be comfortable at -10.  I do see your point though that distortion could be what is making the level more objectionable.

 

I have noticed that when cranking music, -5 sounds very good and I can listen to a few songs at that level, but at 0 it is no longer enjoyable, whether just too loud or starting to clip/distort I am uncertain.

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post #83 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 10:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes odd is the most objectionable components but 4th order being so far up in the FR range is very noticeable. Read the Know-How at data-bass.com. I had to read it a few times and still go back and sift through it to understand all the info. Basicall what I gather from Ricci's explanation is 2nd and 3rd order thd is not a huge issue long as it is kept under cea2010 passing limits. The main thing to look for is dips in the thd plot which will mimic a change in the subs behavior.

Here is a short video which probably explain harmonic distortion a bit more clearly than Josh's write up:
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post #84 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am not the onet that created the term "squashing dynamics" it was Tom V. Who use to build and design the subs you so praise....

Here is a good read for ya.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/60450-official-power-sound-audio-psa-thread-36.html

Read thru this page.
"Now, what if the source material requires the subwoofer to reproduce bass louder than 105dB at the seating position? What about 110dB? Well, subwoofer *A* will not provide ANY of this additional material that you are intended to hear and feel. All of the dyanmic headroom is "squashed" and the audio presentation will suffer accordingly. On the other hand, subwoofer *B* WILL provide all of this material in the 40hz and up range AND a good portion of it in the 25-40hz range. Will you experience all of the intended bass effects at the 110dB level from subwoofer B? No. But you will experience significantly more content that you are absolutely intended to hear/feel. The whole idea with audio reproduction is for the system to have the ability to reproduce AS MUCH of source material as possible. "

Looks like even Tom couldn't decide. Like I said, should be avoided.biggrin.gif
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post #85 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Thanks for this feedback.  Here is some more information about my setup:

AVR:  Yamaha RXV-375
Mains:  HSU HB1.2
Center:  HSU HC1.2
Sub:  PB2000
Blu Ray: Sony 5100

In your opinion, should i be experiencing much distortion at reference level?  I believe the AVR is probably the weakest link in my system.  However, whether there is excess distortion present at this level or not, I find the volume to be comfortable at -10.  I do see your point though that distortion could be what is making the level more objectionable.

Your AVR, speakers, and sub are all weak links in that system. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to sound critical of your setup, and it is better than what most people have, but what you have isn't suitable for reference level listening if you are more than a few feet away from the speakers/sub. I wouldn't say my HT setup is suited for reference level either, so I am not trying to trash your system. Clean reference playback at your listening position will call for some pretty beefy stuff. Very high sensitivity speakers and massive subs, and enough juice to drive it all. Like Basshead said, 115 peaks but also an additional 6 dB of headroom to keep you safely away from THD. A lot of guys around here think they have a THX reference level setup just because they can hit 115 dB on their SPL meters. Well, THX Reference means a certain distortion threshold, and probably the majority of their setups are much too dirty and non-linear to get true THX certification.

I'm guessing your discomfort when you tried to play back at reference level was due to amplifier clipping, and not so much speaker generated THD. Yes, the amp would seem to be the weak link link in your current setup, but, sorry to tell you, basically you would have to replace everything to get a nice reference sound. That kind of equipment tends to have real low WAF, by the way.
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post #86 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:25 AM
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Well on the bright side, it would appear that my blu ray player is up to snuff :D

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post #87 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Oh and its only 10db not 20. Again reference for your mains is 105db, its right on audioholics site. I believe it was the masters list of bass movies thread where I read Luke K or somebody say that some movies will have bass peaks 6db above the listening level. So if your running the subs reference(115db) they can be called upon to deliver 121db.

Not sure what you're sharing in your above as according to THX, it's 85dB for mains, 95dB for subs and both get 20dB of headroom for a total of 105dB for speakers and 115dB for LFE channel. And I know you know this stuff, hence my confusion.

What is Reference Level?

Experience Studio Clarity: THX Certified Receivers reproduce studio Reference Level, 85dB SPL with 20dB of headroom.

And we have our systems set up for an "Ultra2" room size.

THX reference level for subwoofers is 95dB with 20dB of headroom.

I know you know all this so I'm confused as to what you're trying to share. confused.gif
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post #88 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:40 AM
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"The maximum SPL that subwoofers could be asked to reproduce from the low frequency effects track is therefore 115dB at the listening position. In reality the situation is nearly always worse because the subwoofer must additionally reproduce bass managed* content from other channels."

 

"For 5 bass managed speakers an additional 6dB"

 

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/3/14/thx-reference-level

 

In doing a bit of research on the topic I found this info.

 

Time for that OS Bee :eek:

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post #89 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Thanks for this feedback.  Here is some more information about my setup:

AVR:  Yamaha RXV-375
Mains:  HSU HB1.2
Center:  HSU HC1.2
Sub:  PB2000
Blu Ray: Sony 5100

In your opinion, should i be experiencing much distortion at reference level?

Unfortunately, if you check the specs on your system, you'll see that it's not a reference capable system so when cranking at what you think is reference level playback, everything is maxed out and seriously stressing.

Our system didn't reach full on reference level playback until upgrading the CC, the AVR, the subwoofers and a universal blu-ray player.

CC: a Klipsch RC64-II
AVR: a Denon AVR4520CI
Subwoofers: (no longer allowed to post their name)
Universal blu-ray player: Denon DBT-3313UDCI

The point, it takes reference capable gear to successfully reach clean reference level playback.

(unfortunately, no S2s or OSs are going be in my life. Boo-hoo me. biggrin.gif)

-
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post #90 of 109 Old 02-10-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Pretty much...I wanted to have enough headroom so the subs are not working nearly is hard to reach my desired listening levels. Oh and its only 10db not 20. Again reference for your mains is 105db, its right on audioholics site. I believe it was the masters list of bass movies thread where I read Luke K or somebody say that some movies will have bass peaks 6db above the listening level. So if your running the subs reference(115db) they can be called upon to deliver 121db.

THX specifies reference level to be 85db for the 5/7 channels and 95db for the LFE channel, and to have 20db headroom for dynamic peaks. What Luke was referring to was that on a bass managed system, redirected bass can increase the max peak to 121/123 db with the bass from the 5/7 channels. That would be if all channels (all satellites and LFE) simultaneously had peak bass recorded in them, which is rare if ever.

The THX spec already includes headroom for peaks, and reference level does not mean you are cruising along at a constant 105/115db or even a constant 85/95db as material is frequently mixed at even lower volumes in movie soundtracks.

Here is a nice link that helps explain this a bit more.

In regards to squashed dynamics with consumer grade gear, many other components are going to give up the ghost long before a decent sub (such as those discussed here). For those looking to up the ante with dedicated rooms, high sensitivity/powered speakers, and/or desiring to run some heavy house curve or very hot LFE channel (especially those trying to do so with just one sub), better options exist than the PB12/PB2000/XV15 etc.
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