Looking for some sub help... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-21-2014, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, needing a little advice.  Yes, I'm a noob....to this site.  With that said, I am in need of a new sub, the amp in mine is shot..  When my wife and I built our house, I had a theatre system built in.  I didn't know a lot about it, but trusted the company that put everything in.  After doing some research, I don't guess they did too bad.  Well, that was 6 years ago, and now I need a new sub.  My old sub wasn't the greatest, but it did ok, and was in my budget.  Knowing a little more now, I want to get something better than I had.

 

I'm using an Onkyo TX-SR705 receiver, with JBL speakers (can't call the series off top of my head).  My sub was a JBL Venue 10.  Again, not the greatest, but I didn't know any better, and I was budgeting (since I'm not a sound "pro").  I would like to get some opinions on what would be best for me now.  My main use will be for watching movies.  Occasionally we'll have the radio on, but rarely.I have researched A LOT, but just don't know what to look for.

 

I have looked at:

JBL(es150p, es250p, studio250p)

HSU (vtf1-mk2, vtf2-mk2, stf2)

SVS (pb1000, pb2000, sb1000)

BIC (f12, h100, v1020, 1220)

Velodyne (impact10, impact12)

Definitive (Supercube2000)

Polk (dsw 660wi, dsw 550wi)

 

and more...lol...tired of listing.

 

Anyway, my budget is around $500....obviously would love to have another $250 sub, but I don't think I will be able to.....hence the reason I am here.  If you guys could guide me, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks!

 

Kenny

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post #2 of 20 Old 02-21-2014, 11:38 PM
 
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From that list the SVS PB2000 would likely be the highest performer, but it is $800, not $500. Next highest performer would be the Hsu VTF2 mk4, but that is closer to $600 after shipping. If you really can't spend anything over $500, I would go for a Reaction BPS 212 Turbo. It's a new sub and a new company but the design and specs look promising. If you can push your budget up a bit, my top picks would be the Hsu VTF2 mk4 or Rythmik LV12r, both of which are $600, but the Hsu is on sale at the moment so its price will go up in the near future.
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post #3 of 20 Old 02-22-2014, 02:34 AM
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SVS PB-1000. The BPS212 Turbo looks intruiging but it is a new company and there is not much info out on those subs. You could be a first tester for us. wink.gif
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post #4 of 20 Old 02-22-2014, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Yea, several on that list are over $500, but was thinking I may be able to pick up a nice, used one somewhere....I certainly appreciate the advice...I'm going to just go with a consensus, lol

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post #5 of 20 Old 02-22-2014, 05:21 AM
 
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First of all welcome to the forum! I find it neat when someone stumbles upon this place for this first time. Be prepared to be overwhelmed by information! cool.gif

Anyways, I recently upgraded to an SVS from an older Cadence Sub. I haven't had it long enough to play with it much at this point but I'm extremely happy with what I have heard. Customer satisfaction with them is amazing, fedex damaged the original and SVS sent out a replacement sub before I sent the original back. Plus they give you 45 days to test the sub, if you don't like it you can return it no questions asked. During my upgrade research I can tell you the 3 names thrown at me the most were SVS, Rythmik, and HSU, not in any particular order.

What's the size of the room? That may help everyone size the right sub for you.
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post #6 of 20 Old 02-22-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keh3180 View Post

Yea, several on that list are over $500, but was thinking I may be able to pick up a nice, used one somewhere....I certainly appreciate the advice...I'm going to just go with a consensus, lol

That might be easier said than done unless you live in a large metro area. Because shipping subs are expensive, you often have to find subs for local pickup to get a decent deal on used.

You might also update your AVS user profile with your location in case anyone knows of any deals in your area.

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post #7 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice guys...room size is 15x18; 12' ceiling.

 

So, let me ask this.  Do I really need a frequency lower that 25 and higher than 150??

 

I ask because, by looking and comparing specs of different speakers, and relating price, the JBL ES150 and ES250 looks dang good at nearly half the price.  It has higher RMS, and what looks like a good range (25-150).

 

Can someone tell me what I should and shouldn't look for??

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post #8 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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You certainly won't need your sub to playback anything higher than 150, you will probably end up crossing it over at 80 Hz. As for 25 Hz, I doubt either of those JBL subs can playback 25 Hz very cleanly at loud levels. However, in your budget, not much can. I wouldn't worry about chasing frequencies below that point on your budget.
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post #9 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 01:46 PM
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At $500 the SVS PB1000 is your best bet. Can be had from the outlet section for $449 when they have them. It has good output down to 19hz.

As for "needing" output below 25hz, no you don't need it but it sure makes some movies a whole lot better. smile.gif

My previous sub only went to about 25hz, my current sub goes into the mid to upper teens (depending on the tuning mode) and does so with authority. It really makes a difference with some movies.

But, the lower you go the more it costs. frown.gif

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post #10 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 03:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

At $500 the SVS PB1000 is your best bet. Can be had from the outlet section for $449 when they have them. It has good output down to 19hz.

As for "needing" output below 25hz, no you don't need it but it sure makes some movies a whole lot better. smile.gif

My previous sub only went to about 25hz, my current sub goes into the mid to upper teens (depending on the tuning mode) and does so with authority. It really makes a difference with some movies.
Deep bass can make a movie experience better, but any movie that is made a whole lot better by a deeper octave of sound reproduction is going to be a pretty awful movie to begin with. By the way, the PB1000 is measured to be a poor performer at 19 Hz, I would not make the claim of good output at 19 hz:



It looks to be about 6 dB down at 19 Hz which is technically within SVS +/- 3 dB rating, but it is not at all stellar under the low 20s. What's more is distortion is skyrocketing at that point:



There is too much hype for a sub with those kind of measurements.
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post #11 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Deep bass can make a movie experience better, but any movie that is made a whole lot better by a deeper octave of sound reproduction is going to be a pretty awful movie to begin with. By the way, the PB1000 is measured to be a poor performer at 19 Hz, I would not make the claim of good output at 19 hz:


There is too much hype for a sub with those kind of measurements.

Show me or the forum a better sub (not DIY) for the money.

Show me or the forum the test results for other subs in the <$500 range so we can make a comparison as to whether the SVS is a "poor" performer or not.

A Subaru BRZ is a poor performer compared to a 911 turbo S, that doesn't make it a poor performer in its price class.

You're FAR to hung up on data and measurements that make little to no difference to the end user.

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post #12 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Show me or the forum a better sub (not DIY) for the money.

Show me or the forum the test results for other subs in the <$500 range so we can make a comparison as to whether the SVS is a "poor" performer or not.

A Subaru BRZ is a poor performer compared to a 911 turbo S, that doesn't make it a poor performer in its price class.

You're FAR to hung up on data and measurements that make little to no difference to the end user.

+1
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post #13 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Show me or the forum a better sub (not DIY) for the money.

Show me or the forum the test results for other subs in the <$500 range so we can make a comparison as to whether the SVS is a "poor" performer or not.

I think the Reaction BPS 212 Turbo stands a very good chance of being better for $500 shipped. The Rythmik LV12r and Hsu VTF2 are only $100 more and are both guaranteed to be much higher performers than that. The problem is no one takes inexpensive subs seriously enough to measure them properly. Anyway I didn't say the PB1000 was a blanket poor performer, I said it was a poor performer at 19 Hz which it clearly is from third party measurements. You said it had good 19 Hz output, and obviously that isn't so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

You're FAR to hung up on data and measurements that make little to no difference to the end user.
Lol, what is it you think that the end users hear? You want to know what a piece of audio equipment sounds like, measurements and data are the best way to determine that without actually hearing the product itself, because the other side of that street is $5k cables that "open up the mids" and provide "more airy highs".
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post #14 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I think the Reaction BPS 212 Turbo stands a very good chance of being better for $500 shipped. The Rythmik LV12r and Hsu VTF2 are only $100 more and are both guaranteed to be much higher performers than that. The problem is no one takes inexpensive subs seriously enough to measure them properly. Anyway I didn't say the PB1000 was a blanket poor performer, I said it was a poor performer at 19 Hz which it clearly is from third party measurements. You said it had good 19 Hz output, and obviously that isn't so.
Lol, what is it you think that the end users hear? You want to know what a piece of audio equipment sounds like, measurements and data are the best way to determine that without actually hearing the product itself, because the other side of that street is $5k cables that "open up the mids" and provide "more airy highs".

So YOU can PERSONALLY make guarantees as to the performance of equipment just by looking at pictures on the internet.

Amazing, Mr Kreskin rolleyes.gif

As for good output at 19hz

from sound and vision

"Frequency response 18 Hz to 177 Hz, ±3 dB
Crossover (low-pass filter) function

The PB-1000 even reproduced the toughest ultra-low bass test I know, the 16 Hz organ notes on the recording of Saint-Saëns’ Symphony No. 3 from the Boston Audio Society Test CD-1. Yep, I could actually feel those subsonic tones, which is something I didn't think I'd ever experience with a 10-inch woofer in a ported cabinet powered by a 300-watt amp."

It DOES produce good output at 19hz. Sure it has more distortion than higher priced subs but not enough to ruin the experience and certainly not out of line given its price.

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post #15 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 06:33 PM
 
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Lol, obviously that thing will not produce 16 Hz tones. It is down like 20 dB at that point. That is Brent Butterworth's review and he is describing harmonics, not the fundamental. But hey what do I know, I am too hung up on data that makes no difference to the end user. Speaking of data that makes no difference to the end user, if you look at the unsmoothed measurements, it does not look at all like -6 dB at 18 Hz. I don't know how you can make that claim when there is a ground plane FR chart right there. But hey, If Brent said it, it must be true- Brent, who measured the PB1000 wrong. According to his measurements it is a significantly more powerful subwoofer than the PB12 NSD and not far away in performance from the PC13 Ultra. His measurements are contradictory nonsense.
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post #16 of 20 Old 02-24-2014, 07:48 PM
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ShadyJ is quite correct in stating that there is precious little energy at the fundamental and the output of the organ is dominated by the harmonics which are audible. Without knowing the particulars of what type of organ was used, one can't say whether the harmonics are primarily even, odd, or a complex mixture of harmonics. By itself, the 16 Hz fundamental is effectively inaudible and the sub's severely tailing response certainly exacerbates the matter. Brent's comments suggest something that just isn't so and in fact, I'll bet the exact same comments could be made of the majority of subs he's tested.

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post #17 of 20 Old 02-25-2014, 02:39 PM
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Shady- I now know why you earned such a dubious moniker at audioholics and are a such "highly" regarded "contributor" to this forum. It's because you're the guy at the party that knows everything about everything and is never wrong about anything.

You're the joy and sunshine of any party you attend I'm sure. rolleyes.gif

I can only imagine how fast the room clears once you enter........

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post #18 of 20 Old 02-25-2014, 03:58 PM
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post #19 of 20 Old 02-25-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottenkid View Post

If you can come up a little with your budget:

http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/pb12-nsd-outlet#.Uw0t1Cko45s
I concur. I just purchased one. get em while they're hot, once they sell out they're gone forever!
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post #20 of 20 Old 03-04-2014, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help guys...I have still yet to buy a sub. It's killing me, as my HT sounds like *** without it, lol. Anyway, had a couple of things come up, car issues, wife's grandmother, and well, had to rebudget. I had to put some money into things that weren't foreseen. Anyway, I want to wait a little and get the SVS, but I have decided to just go with something less expensive.

So, I'm asking opinions...again, lol.

 

I'm down to a budget-sub....which one do you guys like of these choices. The prices are prices I found online....

 

BIC F12. $199

Martin Logan Dynamo 500. $349 (this is the absolute top of my budget...don't wanna spend it, but if it's a clear choice, I will)

JBL ES150. $159

JBL ES250. $249 Let me know your opinions and thank you.

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