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post #31 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote from Audioholics review of the XV15:

 

" We found that the XV15 sounded clean, composed and dynamic with music, while possessing extension well below 20Hz in room with plenty of headroom to make its presence felt in a large space on movie night."

 

Everyone's hearing is different, but this quote is from Josh Ricci, who has tested many dozens of subwoofers.

 

Of course, music does not often have high levels of low frequency movie type bass.  Another quote:

 

"The final climactic scenes involving the house are incredibly bass heavy and involve content extending to below 20Hz. The XV15 easily handled everything through the first half of the movie with and when the final sequence got underway it produced room filling, thundering bass as the monster lifts off of its foundation and attacks the kids. There was enough bass that I paid a little bit of extra attention to the XV15 to make sure that it wasn’t distorting or in danger. It was not but a glance at it revealed that the driver was going crazy. If the XV-15 was hitting its limit during this I do not know, but if so there was nothing audible to indicate it, as all I heard were impressive amounts of deep bass output."

 

Maybe some people would have heard nothing but horrible distortion, but here is one subjective impression of someone who did not.  Again Josh Ricci has probably heard more subwoofers than most.

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post #32 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The distortion would be audible certainly, but, with regular material like movie sound effects or game sound effects, you might not know you are hearing it unless you knew what to listen for or heard a clean sound in contrast of it. In pure tones you would know it with no problem, it would be as clear as day. To put it another way, at the frequencies that the XV15 really suffer, the low 20s and teens, even 10% THD would be noticeable, and the XV15 can be driven to as much as 40% THD above its tuning point where there is plenty of output available. You can see that here under the tab 'multi-series charts'. In my opinion you, won't really be upgrading. The PSA customers are elated because their subs get loud, but lots of distortion always sound louder.

I would save up for something like VTF15hs or possibly Reaction BPS 215s. Maybe dual SVS PC12 Pluses if you can make that stretch in budget. If you are willing to do a bit of DIY, you could achieve a much better system than these for much less $. For the price of dual XV15s, you could get four of these Dayton HF drivers, two of these Behringer EPs to power them all, and have enough money left over for cabinet material, damping, feet, terminals, mounting material, and veneer/finish or paint. That system would be far, far more higher performing.

Thanks for the feedback. I actually really like the Epik but at times the bass pulls to that side of the room. It's only maybe 15% of the time; the other 85% the bass envelopes the space nicely. I'd like dual subs to eliminate the 15% of localization that I encounter.

Based on my room layout ideally I'd like dual subs that are no wider than 17" (on both ends of the sofa), which is a fairly small market (VTF-3.4, PSAs, SVS 13-U, E15HP). If I didn't have this constraint I think I'd be all over dual FV15HPs. I like the VTF-3.4 but the woofer would be sandwiched between the wall on one side and the couch on the other (no clearance), so I figured a front firing or down firing sub would be optimal.

If not the PSA, I'm leaning towards the E15HP or the SB13-U. Ugh...lots of thinking to do.

P.S. my intention is not to go off topic with my above post, I was just asking a question about PSA that I felt might help the OP determine if PSA was the right choice. My sub dilemma above is the internal dialog going on in my head and I realize it deviates from the OP's inquiry. So to be clear, I'm not necessarily looking for advice in this thread. I'd love feedback but not at the expense of the OP.

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post #33 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:41 PM
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Most of the 6-$800 ID sub market are going to be maximum width of 18".  Will this fit your criteria?  If you have to rule out the side firing driver of the VTF3.4, I think your top two options under $800 would be the PSA XV15 or the SVS PB2000.  I think these two are a bit better than the outlaw due to the outlaw being underported(The VTF 3.4 has larger ports and I would put it in the same class as the other two).

 

Are you talking about using duals of either of these options?  If your longest room dimension is say...around 17' or less then sealed subs could also be a viable option such as dual PSA XS15's.

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post #34 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Shady, honest question (I'm not trying to ruffle feathers)...the elevated distortion of PSA's subs that you refer to, in your opinion are they audible/discernable? Also have you personally heard any PSA subs? I'm seriously considering either dual XS-15s or VS-15s and I’m struggling with the contrast between posts similar to yours (PSA being of lessor audio quality) with testimonials of elated PSA customers enjoying their subs. I would be upgrading from an Epik Empire so I believe a dual sub set up will provide for a better overall experience.

Here is the xv vs. epik burst testing.



Here is a max spl, 4kw 18" driver 30mm xmax, ported vs. sealed plot done by LTD02



Ported has a good amount more max output around tune, so I don't think dual xs would be an upgrade. Although the room smoothing with duals is a worthwhile pursuit.
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post #35 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:48 PM
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You mentioned dual FV15HP's being an option but size would not work.  If this is the case, and you want a clear upgrade from what you have, how about dual PSA XS30's?  These are the same width as the XV15 or PB2000, would yield you four 15" drivers with at least the same output for movies as duals of the ported subs, but double the output over 40Hz for music and midbass effects.  You would also get much lower extension.  They are, from what I can tell, a step up from the Epik with the same design.

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post #36 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:52 PM
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Dual XS30's...I bet that sounds nice. 

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by RastaManMax View Post


I wish it was a choice! Even regular price down in the States seems like a steal compared to Canada.

Don't you guys get to vote? :confused: 


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post #37 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post
 

Don't you guys get to vote? :confused: 

Yeah you know how it works, even here:

 

You vote for the guy that wont raise taxes, and he raises taxes.  So you don't re-elect him.  Instead, you vote for the guy that promises not to raise taxes.  Once in office, he raises taxes.  And so on and so on.  :)

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post #38 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:58 PM
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A few of us who own Ascend products also own PSA subs.....I know the the majority(Ascend Owners) swear by Rythmik and for good reason...I guess... but my PSA sub preforms admirably as I've tested the SQ alongside a SB13.....if I were you...just wait for Jim Wilson's final analysis of the 2 subs.

If you really feel ShadyJ as reliable with helpful insight you might want to dismiss Jim's review because Mr. ShadyJ....believes Jim's reviews are fluff or caters to manufactures. I for one, don't have one ounce of respect for the guy(ShadyJ)....YYMV.


Just my 2 cents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I actually really like the Epik but at times the bass pulls to that side of the room. It's only maybe 15% of the time; the other 85% the bass envelopes the space nicely. I'd like dual subs to eliminate the 15% of localization that I encounter.

Based on my room layout ideally I'd like dual subs that are no wider than 17" (on both ends of the sofa), which is a fairly small market (VTF-3.4, PSAs, SVS 13-U, E15HP). If I didn't have this constraint I think I'd be all over dual FV15HPs. I like the VTF-3.4 but the woofer would be sandwiched between the wall on one side and the couch on the other (no clearance), so I figured a front firing or down firing sub would be optimal.

If not the PSA, I'm leaning towards the E15HP or the SB13-U. Ugh...lots of thinking to do.

P.S. my intention is not to go off topic with my above post, I was just asking a question about PSA that I felt might help the OP determine if PSA was the right choice. My sub dilemma above is the internal dialog going on in my head and I realize it deviates from the OP's inquiry. So to be clear, I'm not necessarily looking for advice in this thread. I'd love feedback but not at the expense of the OP.
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post #39 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Quote from Audioholics review of the XV15:

" We found that the XV15 sounded clean, composed and dynamic with music, while possessing extension well below 20Hz in room with plenty of headroom to make its presence felt in a large space on movie night."

Everyone's hearing is different, but this quote is from Josh Ricci, who has tested many dozens of subwoofers.

Of course, music does not often have high levels of low frequency movie type bass.  Another quote:

"The final climactic scenes involving the house are incredibly bass heavy and involve content extending to below 20Hz. The XV15 easily handled everything through the first half of the movie with and when the final sequence got underway it produced room filling, thundering bass as the monster lifts off of its foundation and attacks the kids. There was enough bass that I paid a little bit of extra attention to the XV15 to make sure that it wasn’t distorting or in danger. It was not but a glance at it revealed that the driver was going crazy. If the XV-15 was hitting its limit during this I do not know, but if so there was nothing audible to indicate it, as all I heard were impressive amounts of deep bass output."

Maybe some people would have heard nothing but horrible distortion, but here is one subjective impression of someone who did not.  Again Josh Ricci has probably heard more subwoofers than most.

Hi Bear123,

A big part of this "disconnect" is that the correct chart/data-set to use when trying to determine how a subwoofer will perform with music and film material is the CEA-2010 burst data. This has been specifically designed to emulate the type of input signal a subwoofer sees with music/film. The research behind this spans many years with some of the most respected minds in the industry behind it(Keele, Toole, etc).

Anyone with an agenda against a manufacturer could "cherry pick" a infinitesimal amount of data and make ANY of the products at data-bass appear in a negative light. I would encourage everyone to check on posting histories. Then ask the hundreds of Power Sound Audio owners what they think about their product and the company. Weigh all of this information for yourselves..wink.gif

Tom V.
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post #40 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:04 PM
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And for fun here is a very rough estimate of the xs 15 using the data I posted above. Add ~5 dB for the xs 30 (500 t0 750 watts, doubling drivers).

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post #41 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

A few of us who own Ascend products also own PSA subs.....I know the the majority(Ascend Owners) swear by Rythmik and for good reason...I guess... but my PSA sub preforms admirably as I've tested the SQ alongside a SB13.....if I were you...just wait for Jim Wilson's final analysis of the 2 subs.



If you really feel ShadyJ as reliable with helpful insight you might want to dismiss Jim's review because Mr. ShadyJ....believes Jim's reviews are fluff or caters to manufactures. I for one, don't have one ounce of respect for the guy(ShadyJ)....YYMV.





Just my 2 cents

 



Any idea on when Jim will review them?
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post #42 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

You mentioned dual FV15HP's being an option but size would not work.  If this is the case, and you want a clear upgrade from what you have, how about dual PSA XS30's?  These are the same width as the XV15 or PB2000, would yield you four 15" drivers with at least the same output for movies as duals of the ported subs, but double the output over 40Hz for music and midbass effects.  You would also get much lower extension.  They are, from what I can tell, a step up from the Epik with the same design.

The XS30 is a nice looking subs. I had considered dual XS30s since I like how the Empire plays in my room, but the website lists the PSA as being 18" wide. The dual subs will go on both ends of my sofa, which is encased by a glass door on one side and a wall on the other. Here's a link to my HT thread for some perspective https://www.avsforum.com/t/1318942/my-modest-setup. (note that I now I have Ascend towers in lieu of the book shelf speakers so I have less real estate up front for a sub).

I slide the sofas all the way to one side and measured the distance between the bottom of the glass door and the end of the sofa and I believe I had 35.5" of total clearance, so I'm short exactly .5". I thought about removing the bassboard on the other side of the wall but I'm not sure that gets me enough room.

The other option I'm considering is to leave the sub where it is today and put another sub near my LCR. The issue I run into there is real estate and WAF. To go this route I'm probably looking at either the E15 or SB13-U.

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post #43 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:09 PM
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He mentioned he completed his trials with the Svs. Has a business trip and upon his return he'll set up the Rythimk.

His post from last night at Audioholics...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theJman;1023845 
I can't begin to tell you how many people have been contacting me about this comparison. That one post I made seems to live on in perpetuity...

I did actually push aside the other review units so I could focus on making the decision between the SB13U and E15HP. The SVS was hooked up for about two weeks - I just finished with it this morning - but then I had to catch a flight to Chicago for business. I'll be here all week, but when I get back the E15Hp will get hooked up. Barring any complications I should have everything all figured out before the end of this month.

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post #44 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Bear123,

A big part of this "disconnect" is that the correct chart/data-set to use when trying to determine how a subwoofer will perform with music and film material is the CEA-2010 burst data. This has been specifically designed to emulate the type of input signal a subwoofer sees with music/film. The research behind this spans many years with some of the most respected minds in the industry behind it(Keele, Toole, etc).

Anyone with an agenda against a manufacturer could "cherry pick" a infinitesimal amount of data and make ANY of the products at data-bass appear in a negative light. I would encourage everyone to check on posting histories. Then ask the hundreds of Power Sound Audio owners what they think about their product and the company. Weigh all of this information for yourselves..wink.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I agree. Purple is the xv native and burst response. The graph was done by Bossobass in that thread.



We have discussed this here. Maybe you would like to chime in on that thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1502245/finally-we-have-a-simple-way-to-rate-and-compare-subwoofers

Ask any subwoofer owner what they think of their sub. Its the best of the ones they considered of course. rolleyes.gif
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post #45 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:21 PM
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Well the SB13 is a 17" cube you'll have room to spare...with 2 of them..tongue.gif

Nice clean room BTW....I like it...smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

The PSAs are nice looking subs. I had considered dual PSAs since I like how the Empire plays in my room, but the website lists the PSA as being 18" wide. The dual subs will go on both ends of my sofa, which is encased by a glass door on one side and a wall on the other. Here's a link to my HT thread for some perspective https://www.avsforum.com/t/1318942/my-modest-setup. (note that I now I have Ascend towers in lieu of the book shelf speakers so I have less real estate up front for a sub).

I slide the sofas all the way to one side and measured the distance between the bottom of the glass door and the end of the sofa and I believe I had 35.5" of total clearance, so I'm short exactly .5". I thought about removing the bassboard on the other side of the wall but I'm not sure that gets me enough room.

The other option I'm considering is to leave the sub where it is today and put another sub near my LCR. The issue I run into there is real estate and WAF. To go this route I'm probably looking at either the E15 or SB13-U.

Ascend Acoustics: Towers, STC w RAAL & 200 SE in espresso,
54" of Panny Bliss, Anthem MRX 300, Oppo 103D,
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post #46 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Well the SB13 is a 17" cube you'll have room to spare...with 2 of them..tongue.gif

Nice clean room BTW....I like it...smile.gif

Thanks for the compliment, but it looks even nicer with my Ascends (the horizon grew on the wifey)!
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post #47 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Thanks for the compliment, but it looks even nicer with my Ascends (the horizon grew on the wifey)!

I can't remember did you go RAAL across the front...I think you did....update your thread with new pictures....we all like pictures...you know...cool.gif

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post #48 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:31 PM
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1)change the hsu data to max extension so you are comparing apples to apples(similar extension capabilities).
2)Factor in the differences in the way each unit was measured and scale the performance data accordingly.

Put both products on an even playing field and the above chart would look quite a bit different.

>>>Ask any subwoofer owner what they think of their sub. Its the best of the ones they considered of course<<<<br />
I have always felt forum members sharing their own experiences of products and overall company interaction(customer service) was one of the most valuable assets to a community like this. Opinions vary of course.


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post #49 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
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I can't remember did you go RAAL across the front...I think you did....update your thread with new pictures....we all like pictures...you know...cool.gif

No, I'm currently Nrt across the front but am seriously considering upgrading to the RAAL. I was going to start with the Horizon and then upgrade the towers. I was hoping Ascend could upgrade the Horizon same day (I live about 45 mins away) but it looks like it'll be in the shop for at least a few days. The thought of not having my Horizon for a few days is the only thing hold me back smile.gif.

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post #50 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:59 PM
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I hear you....I returned mine for the refit and I missed it dearly. Makes a huge difference when viewing movies...I hear about the phantom CC but the horizon is likely the best audio piece I've owned to date.smile.gif

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post #51 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

1)change the hsu data to max extension so you are comparing apples to apples(similar extension capabilities).
2)Factor in the differences in the way each unit was measured and scale the performance data accordingly.

Put both products on an even playing field and the above chart would look quite a bit different.

>>>Ask any subwoofer owner what they think of their sub. Its the best of the ones they considered of course<<<<br />
I have always felt forum members sharing their own experiences of products and overall company interaction(customer service) was one of the most valuable assets to a community like this. Opinions vary of course.


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1) I have examined them and the xv has more output at 50hz burst. The HSU was measured with a q.7, with q.3 the native and burst would be an even closer resemblance. 1.2 PSA factor. rolleyes.gif
2) They were tested in different fields? tongue.gif I do realize the downfiring sub would have a bit of a disadvantage in gp measuring.

I love to read user experiences and customer interaction is great and agree with you.

"ask the hundreds of Power Sound Audio owners what they think about their product and the company."

Ask the hundreds of ______ owners what they think about their product and the company. Works for most of the companies discussed around here is all I was saying.

I like your subs and your company. Look forward to seeing what your speakers are like. I am just getting tired of the multiple owner getting in every reco thread acting like your products blow away competition and its an easy choice. I simply don't agree. I stated in this thread, "I imagine in a blind test between these subs it would be a toss up without the subjects being able to properly identify the subs. I also imagine peoples favorite would be different from person to person."


What the deal with the PSA posters inflated thumbs up count?
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post #52 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

1) I have examined them and the xv has more output at 50hz burst. The HSU was measured with a q.7, with q.3 the native and burst would be an even closer resemblance. 1.2 PSA factor. rolleyes.gif
2) They were tested in different fields? tongue.gif I do realize the downfiring sub would have a bit of a disadvantage in gp measuring.

I love to read user experiences and customer interaction is great and agree with you.

"ask the hundreds of Power Sound Audio owners what they think about their product and the company."

Ask the hundreds of ______ owners what they think about their product and the company. Works for most of the companies discussed around here is all I was saying.

I like your subs and your company. Look forward to seeing what your speakers are like. I am just getting tired of the multiple owner getting in every reco thread acting like your products blow away competition and its an easy choice. I simply don't agree. I stated in this thread, "I imagine in a blind test between these subs it would be a toss up without the subjects being able to properly identify the subs. I also imagine peoples favorite would be different from person to person."


What the deal with the PSA posters inflated thumbs up count?

1)Where did I ever imply *only* Power Sound Audio customers should have their opinions valued? Please don't build a strawman for this.

2)me pointing out that the data-set that will closely emulate the transient nature of music/film is cea-2010 is now "acting like product A blows away competition" Again, please stop with these silly straw men. My comments couldn't POSSIBLE be interpreted in the way you are describing.

3)There are 3 different data sets for the hsu, all very close. If you are using the one port set from data bass and properly scale all the data the XV15 has the output edge at 4 of the 6 frequencies. And the other two 20hz and 31hz it is a 0.4dB and a 0.7dB disadvantage. Again, you brought up this chart not me. I'm just asking for it to put both products on an even playing field.

4)how would the electrical filter settings on a sub effect the burst data in this context?


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post #53 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I actually really like the Epik but at times the bass pulls to that side of the room. It's only maybe 15% of the time; the other 85% the bass envelopes the space nicely. I'd like dual subs to eliminate the 15% of localization that I encounter.

Based on my room layout ideally I'd like dual subs that are no wider than 17" (on both ends of the sofa), which is a fairly small market (VTF-3.4, PSAs, SVS 13-U, E15HP). If I didn't have this constraint I think I'd be all over dual FV15HPs. I like the VTF-3.4 but the woofer would be sandwiched between the wall on one side and the couch on the other (no clearance), so I figured a front firing or down firing sub would be optimal.

If not the PSA, I'm leaning towards the E15HP or the SB13-U. Ugh...lots of thinking to do.

The Empire is an upper bass monster, and upper bass is what localizes a sub, so it's no wonder that your Empire draws attention to its position. You know, if you like the sound of your Empire now, and are only going duals to reduce localization, you might think about just lowering the crossover instead. Take it down to 60 Hz, and see what that is like, after all, it doesn't cost you anything. Bass above 80 Hz is localizable, but the thing is, those 80 Hz crossovers, they aren't brick wall filters, they draw down at a 24dB per octave slope, and that might be one of the causes of your localization issue.

As for other subs, that is a pretty slim fit for VTF3s, incidentally I have my pair of VTF3s flanking my couch as end tables with the drivers facing inward towards the listening position. The drivers pounding right into the couch really packs a punch. I am not sure if you have the room to pull that off though, I would want at least an open inch for air-flow. Still, they make magnificent end tables. I think the E15 and SB13 would be great too. Those are using terrific drivers. Also consider the Reaction BPS 215, it is 18" wide and a pair will only set you back $1550. Reaction is a brand new company. If you have any questions about those, the company owner is pretty active in the Reaction forum.

Here is something else to consider, it's not a widely discussed sub but could work very well for you, the Dayton RS1202A. That is using a pair of very good drivers and a beefy amp, and has what looks like a very overbuilt cabinet. Very flat response, excellent sound quality given those drivers are the high fidelity end of Dayton's extensive catalog of drivers. Because of the dual opposed design which cancels out vibrations, and the very heavy duty cabinet (shipping weight: 169 lbs!), that thing will be absolutely inert, so no vibrations whatsoever. At 21" tall, it is the perfect end table height as well. With a 17.5" width, maybe you could squeeze it in. There is also a kit version of that which you have to assemble yourself, the RS1202k. It is very easy to assemble though, it only takes an hour and doesn't need any fancy tools, all you need is a screwdriver and some regular glue: watch this video to see what assembly is like, it is a piece of cake. You save $150 on the kit for an hours worth of labor, and time would be further consolidated if you were building two.
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post #54 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

1)Where did I ever imply *only* Power Sound Audio customers should have their opinions valued? Please don't build a strawman for this.

2)me pointing out that the data-set that will closely emulate the transient nature of music/film is cea-2010 is now "acting like product A blows away competition" Again, please stop with these silly straw men. My comments couldn't POSSIBLE be interpreted in the way you are describing.

3)There are 3 different data sets for the hsu, all very close. If you are using the one port set from data bass and properly scale all the data the XV15 has the output edge at 4 of the 6 frequencies. And the other two 20hz and 31hz it is a 0.4dB and a 0.7dB disadvantage. Again, you brought up this chart not me. I'm just asking for it to put both products on an even playing field.

4)how would the electrical filter settings on a sub effect the burst data in this context?


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

1) Look up posting histories then talk to my customers is how I read it. No strawman argument here, its good marketing on your part.

2) No besides Shady, it has been all PSA recommendations in this thread, or choice between PSA or SVS out of the original choices. I am just stating I think they are all good choices and you can't go wrong. I wasn't implying anything about what you said.

3) I didn't bring up another sub, that data was just on the graph I used to show the difference between your subs native and burst data. Lets take this to the other thread that I linked to if you want to compare those subs. It would be a better place to discuss.

4) I can't answer that question and am not sure. i am interested to know if you would like to share. With content distortion would stay lower down low as the output is compressed. I do believe dsp and limiting would greatly help a high inductance driver.

You have a fervent following and make competitive product. I am sure you will continue to do very well. I am done for now catch you later. smile.gif

Luke Kamp
Not an owner of an a/v company. Concerned enthusiast. biggrin.gif
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post #55 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

1) Look up posting histories then talk to my customers is how I read it. No strawman argument here, its good marketing on your part.

2) No besides Shady, it has been all PSA recommendations in this thread, or choice between PSA or SVS out of the original choices. I am just stating I think they are all good choices and you can't go wrong. I wasn't implying anything about what you said.

3) I didn't bring up another sub, that data was just on the graph I used to show the difference between your subs native and burst data. Lets take this to the other thread that I linked to if you want to compare those subs. It would be a better place to discuss.

4) I can't answer that question and am not sure. i am interested to know if you would like to share. With content distortion would stay lower down low as the output is compressed. I do believe dsp and limiting would greatly help a high inductance driver.

You have a fervent following and make competitive product. I am sure you will continue to do very well. I am done for now catch you later. smile.gif

Luke Kamp
Not an owner of an a/v company. Concerned enthusiast. biggrin.gif


Okay, I apologize if I misread anything in your posts, it appears as if we agree on most points. Or, at the least, respect the differences we do have.

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post #56 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

2)me pointing out that the data-set that will closely emulate the transient nature of music/film is cea-2010 is now "acting like product A blows away competition" Again, please stop with these silly straw men. My comments couldn't POSSIBLE be interpreted in the way you are describing.

3)There are 3 different data sets for the hsu, all very close. If you are using the one port set from data bass and properly scale all the data the XV15 has the output edge at 4 of the 6 frequencies. And the other two 20hz and 31hz it is a 0.4dB and a 0.7dB disadvantage. Again, you brought up this chart not me. I'm just asking for it to put both products on an even playing field.

CEA isn't the end all measurement of subwoofers, in fact, for as much weight as you assign to it, it has some significant shortcomings, and, yes, even for real world material. Yes, I know who formed the standard and what research it is based on. There are those in the industry who agree it is woefully inadequate as a sole measure of subwoofer performance, including the two foremost sub testers who use it, Brent Butterworth and Josh Ricci.

As for scaling the XV15 for orientation, that doesn't work as you describe, which I think you would understand. You want the XV15 data to be scaled for a front firing orientation to put it at parity with the other subs tested. The problem with that is you are trading one acoustic emitter for another. I'm guessing the testing was initially done with port facing the mic. If you angle the sub with woofer facing the mic, you gain measurement output from the woofer but lose it from the port. Here is some measurements that neatly illustrate that principle:



Yet you want to have it both ways, and even assume as much in your product comparison chart on the XV15's product page. The performance data as you wish it to be presented is simply invalid.
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post #57 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

OK, I get it now, you are comparing sweeps at lower output levels. I don't really agree that puts the XV15 on top, as that view makes the Outlaw port limited rather than driver limited. It would be better to have the port as a constraint rather than the driver. Thinking about it now, it does make me want to mod my Outlaws though, lol.

Exactly...and the 110db sweeps should only be compared because both subs are only increasing in output in a narrow margin when the 113db sweep was performed on the outlaw and 115db sweep on the XV15. Oh and I was comparing the distortion between the 2 @ 110db and the XV15 still stays under 10% down to 24hz, the outlaw breaks 10% around 35hz in 1port. You need to look at the data carefully because the only 113db data for the outlaw is in 2 port mode. Port limited or driver limited makes no difference, a subwoofer is a system of components. Put the Outlaw in 2port and they both are damn near identical performers except the Outlaw lacks extension. In all fairness the Outlaw should not even have a 1 port mode because it is severely underported. It starts compressing at 95db. Hell even a pair of them would still be compressing pretty good at 105db. A pair of XV15's would have virtually no compression @ 110db and distortion would decresase 10fold.
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post #58 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

CEA isn't the end all measurement of subwoofers, in fact, for as much weight as you assign to it, it has some significant shortcomings, and, yes, even for real world material. Yes, I know who formed the standard and what research it is based on. There are those in the industry who agree it is woefully inadequate as a sole measure of subwoofer performance, including the two foremost sub testers who use it, Brent Butterworth and Josh Ricci.

As for scaling the XV15 for orientation, that doesn't work as you describe, which I think you would understand. You want the XV15 data to be scaled for a front firing orientation to put it at parity with the other subs tested. The problem with that is you are trading one acoustic emitter for another. I'm guessing the testing was initially done with port facing the mic. If you angle the sub with woofer facing the mic, you gain measurement output from the woofer but lose it from the port. Here is some measurements that neatly illustrate that principle:



Yet you want to have it both ways, and even assume as much in your product comparison chart on the XV15's product page. The performance data as you wish it to be presented is simply invalid.

Ricci already confirmed there is a output difference being how the XV15 was tested...ok so just let it go already. smile.gif
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post #59 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

1) I have examined them and the xv has more output at 50hz burst. The HSU was measured with a q.7, with q.3 the native and burst would be an even closer resemblance. 1.2 PSA factor. rolleyes.gif
2) They were tested in different fields? tongue.gif I do realize the downfiring sub would have a bit of a disadvantage in gp measuring.

I love to read user experiences and customer interaction is great and agree with you.

"ask the hundreds of Power Sound Audio owners what they think about their product and the company."

Ask the hundreds of ______ owners what they think about their product and the company. Works for most of the companies discussed around here is all I was saying.

I like your subs and your company. Look forward to seeing what your speakers are like. I am just getting tired of the multiple owner getting in every reco thread acting like your products blow away competition and its an easy choice. I simply don't agree. I stated in this thread, "I imagine in a blind test between these subs it would be a toss up without the subjects being able to properly identify the subs. I also imagine peoples favorite would be different from person to person."


What the deal with the PSA posters inflated thumbs up count?

I am slightly disappointed with your responses. I never recomended anything PSA in this thread...I am not biased to 1 brand as much as you would like to think. For some reason I thought we were in agreement on a lot of different things and I respect your opinion. I can gurantee you it is not all PSA owners inflating my thumbs up. Please spend more time here and elighten me if you will. I have always valued your opinion. Shady and I sling mud a lot and fwiw I still like to have him around on these forums. I apologized to Bosso for my response to him in another thread and he did not accept,
But that is his choice. I am here to learn and help pass along information that I pick up from guys like Bosso, Bill F, DonH, Shady, LTD, yourself. If you think I am out of line on something then say it. smile.gif

My point still remains that it is not apples to apples to specifically compare varibale tuned subwoofers in its highest tune to a sub that is a single tune,,tuned much lower. You should compare the tune that matches the others...jmo
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post #60 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 03:58 PM
 
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Basshead I could counter your points, but this thread has already become bogged down in technical minutia likely beyond the interest of the OP, so I will let it go. Have a good evening. smile.gif
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