Bass: How Low Should You Go? - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 48Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #421 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 03:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Not to forget the FR and DVR! Even the VCR!
.....or that he has an MA, a BA and he's a BMF beside.
coolrda is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #422 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 03:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Not to forget the FR and DVR! Even the VCR!
BTW and IOW, U R A Beast when it comes to acronyms, IMHO, YMMV.
beastaudio likes this.
coolrda is offline  
post #423 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 03:37 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5985 Post(s)
Liked: 5114
Scott Simonian is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #424 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 04:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2367 Post(s)
Liked: 1990
Hence, this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...explained.html

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #425 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 04:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
That is truly disturbing.
DotJun likes this.
coolrda is offline  
post #426 of 439 Old 06-23-2016, 05:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
XBR11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,496
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
BTW and IOW, U R A Beast when it comes to acronyms, IMHO, YMMV.

This reminds me of that big hit song by Carly Simon "YSVYPTTPWALOIIIAY".


YSVYPTTPWALOIIIAY = You're so vain you probably think this post (with a lot of acronyms in it) is about you.

Last edited by XBR11; 06-24-2016 at 07:41 AM.
XBR11 is offline  
post #427 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 05:57 AM
Senior Member
 
Hifisound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bangalore, India
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Note that ELC isn't the most useful philosophy when doing high-end home audio for HT.

You don't hear the notes, you feel them.

Tactical response > frequency response/audible for ULF, imho.
What would be better approach then ?
Isn't the same SPL needed as ELC extrapolated (as shown by measurements in the article) ?

Also , there are quite a few articles on harmfulness of infrasound, not sure how true.
Though we have quite a few in this forum unaffected by all those

Hifisound is offline  
post #428 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 06:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
What would be better approach then ?
Isn't the same SPL needed as ELC extrapolated (as shown by measurements in the article) ?

Also , there are quite a few articles on harmfulness of infrasound, not sure how true.
Though we have quite a few in this forum unaffected by all those
The better approach

Our sense of hearing and frequency response is only half of the equation. Our sense of feeling and tactile response is equally important and looking at these phon scales and various graphs from the past and trying to adapt them to our sport here as a reference is ridiculous in the sense that it doesn't take any of this into account. We have all that we need(with exception of a velocity meter) in OM/REW, SpecLab and VibSensor. Now getting them to play nice together is what we're just beginning to explore and trying to accomplish here.
coolrda is offline  
post #429 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 09:14 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5985 Post(s)
Liked: 5114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
What would be better approach then ?
Isn't the same SPL needed as ELC extrapolated (as shown by measurements in the article) ?

Also , there are quite a few articles on harmfulness of infrasound, not sure how true.
Though we have quite a few in this forum unaffected by all those
Coolrda got this reply for me.

Essentially at these super low frequencies (below 20hz) we humans don't really hear these frequencies in our ears so much as we perceive them through our bodies. Tactile response. What you feel. That becomes very important at very low frequencies. I can't tell you how many of us have monster bass systems but have a hard to perceiving these super low frequencies at all. And this is all at or beyond reference level SPL. So having a flat frequency response does not get you all the way there, unfortunately. However, I still do advocate getting a decent frequency response. Get the best you can. If you can get flat to 5hz...awesome! But if at that point you aren't so much enjoying this extended frequency response.... you then need to take a look at tactile response.


Oh ...and as for these frequencies being "harmful". Pfft. Yes, they are. They are harmful to your home (haha!), they are harmful to your pocketbook and in many cases harmful to total WAF.

Nobody that I know or heard of has caused bodily harm purely with deep bass.

Last edited by Scott Simonian; 06-24-2016 at 09:17 AM.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #430 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Hifisound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bangalore, India
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 32
@coolrda @Scott Simonian

Thanks!

Have you also tried with just the tactile transducers below 20Hz ? Just to get an idea how much the FR and SPL contributes below 20Hz in comparison with tactile transducers/motion actuators..

Hifisound is offline  
post #431 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 11:30 AM
Senior Member
 
MRG1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 45
As far as the audible component, people differ greatly in what they can hear. Your lowest heard pitch might easily be 16 hz, or 200 hz, depending on many different things, and it changes with age.

Try the sweep test at

http://onlinetonegenerator.com

I get that we can all feel the very low frequency vibrations on dance floor, but much above that, is bass that is loud enough to be felt also loud enough to damage to your ears?
MRG1 is offline  
post #432 of 439 Old 06-24-2016, 12:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
@coolrda @Scott Simonian

Thanks!

Have you also tried with just the tactile transducers below 20Hz ? Just to get an idea how much the FR and SPL contributes below 20Hz in comparison with tactile transducers/motion actuators..
I counted that I've run over 130 test runs just with my Crowsons over the last two months. I've also watched several complete movies with just the Crowsons by themselves and with the mains, no subs. I've adjusted, placed, wired and eq'd just about every way I could think of. I've had subs on point and blended in the MA's, then vice versa. I spent days just adjusting delays/distance. I spent days just swapping xovers while listening to music, movies and test tracks. What i found was they work together a cohesive unit. Pretty much what we already know but it was good to go through the process. You can't ask one to substitute for the other, they work together to accomplish something a sub can't do on its own. Likewise with the transducer. Once you have both there's no going back. You get awesome adjustability but greater complexity. So yes I've tried just the MA's below 20hz and you definitely need the FR and SPL below 20hz from a sub, it's absolutely essential as it brings weight to the performance.

I've eq'd my system flat from 5-70hz and I didn't like it. Not below 20 nor above 35hz. I guess I like my bass lumpy. If you can get a nice 3db/icy slope up going from 80 to 5hz you'll be ok. Keep it in s 5-10db window and you'll be fine as long as peak null aren't to close or sharp. If I had a do over, I'd go the 2xHST18 Or 24" and 2x12 MBM's. Using both sub and TT's give you flexibility.
Scott Simonian, Alan P and Spanglo like this.

Last edited by coolrda; 07-01-2016 at 01:14 PM.
coolrda is offline  
post #433 of 439 Old 06-29-2016, 07:06 PM
Senior Member
 
MRG1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I counted that I've run over 130 test runs just with my Crowsons over the last two months. I've also watch several complete movies with just the Crowsons by themselves and with the mains, no subs. I've adjusted, placed, wired and eq'd just about every way I could think of. I've had subs on point and blended in the MA's, then vice versa. I spent days just adjusting delays/distance. I spent days just swapping xovers while listening to music, movies and test tracks. What i found was they work together a cohesive unit. Pretty much what we already know but it was good to go through the process. You can't ask one to substitute for the other, they work together to accomplish something a sub can't do on its own. Likewise with the transducer. Once you have both there's no going back. You get awesome adjustability but greater complexity. So yes I've tried just the MA's below 20hz and you definitely need the FR and SPL below 20hz from a sub, it's absolutely essential as it brings weight to the performance.

I've eq'd my system flat from 5-70hz and I didn't like it. Not below 20 nor above 35hz. I guess I like my bass lumpy. If you can get a nice 3db/icy slope up going from 80 to 5hz you'll be ok. Keep it in s 5-10db window and you'll be fine as long as peak null aren't to close or sharp. If I had a do over, I'd go the 2xHST18 Or 24" and 2x12 MBM's. Using both sub and TT's give you flexibility.
I haven't read the whole thread - but do people realize you sometimes hear pitches beyond the capabilities of their audio equipment AND their ears due to "aliasing "- but at a different frequency?

The idea is that the sampling rate of your audio equipment, or some other phase in the end-to-end audio system, beats against the frequency of the sound - so you hear it at a different pitch. It's a lot like the way that wheels on cars sometimes appear to go the wrong spead, or go backwards, in movies and videos.

The problem is particularly common in on-line sources, because they often have low sampling rates.

I know this is a problem at high frequencies. It's one of the reasons recording equipment should incorporate a low pass filter. I can't figure out if there is a low frequency problem too. I.e., if a sound too low to hear could be aliased to a sound high enough to hear by your audio equiopment.
MRG1 is offline  
post #434 of 439 Old 06-30-2016, 07:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Hifisound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bangalore, India
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 32
An extension of the main topic :
How low should one go, in an apartment (RCC slabs) , to minimize troubling neighbours and yet have a good low end ?

Hifisound is offline  
post #435 of 439 Old 06-30-2016, 08:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,197
Mentioned: 315 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3731 Post(s)
Liked: 3705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
An extension of the main topic :
How low should one go, in an apartment (RCC slabs) , to minimize troubling neighbours and yet have a good low end ?
Get transducers The Crowson Shadow-8s are awesome.
coolrda and LTD02 like this.
notnyt is offline  
post #436 of 439 Old 07-01-2016, 12:44 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,165
Mentioned: 836 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2920 Post(s)
Liked: 3626
^^ good idea.


also, you may want to use a nearfield sub, so you get most of the output right on you, instead of resonating the whole building.
coolrda likes this.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #437 of 439 Old 07-01-2016, 01:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolrda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,913
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1388 Post(s)
Liked: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
An extension of the main topic :
How low should one go, in an apartment (RCC slabs) , to minimize troubling neighbours and yet have a good low end ?
With RCC you have sufficient mass to forgo decoupling when using the Crowson MA's. A riser over Uboats if you need suspended wood floor decoupling on a multi story as the MA's, though energizing the path of least resistance(your seat), will vibrate the structure. How low? My goal is DC though I know 3-6hz is the realistic bottom. Problem is the lower you go the more penetrative the response is. However most people/neighbors will find 50hz beat music way more offensive/disruptive than running 5-15hz sine blasts or movie soundtracks with occasional dynamic peaks at LF's. As mentioned above, Crowsons+Nearfield sub/s+communication with neighbors=HT bliss.
coolrda is offline  
post #438 of 439 Old 07-05-2016, 04:32 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Just a general question, I didn't see this covered elsewhere.

Do the low frequencies need more power? For example if I have two subs side-by-side, identical in all respects except one goes to 18Hz and one goes to 12Hz, how much more power will that extra 6Hz require?

-Bob C.
(p.s. I realize there is no way for two subs to be identical except for frequency rating... just hypothetical / rhetorical!)
bobc455 is offline  
post #439 of 439 Old 07-05-2016, 05:27 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5985 Post(s)
Liked: 5114
In general...yes.

But it really is all about the driver/enclosure relationship (alignment) that dictates how much power is needed at said frequency.
Scott Simonian is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off