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post #301 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
I designed the vertically aligned stacking method for 2 reasons:

1) To put as much firepower as possible into as small a footprint as possible.

2) To address the fact that rooms are 3 dimensional, not planar. My room/seat position always showed the dreaded floor-to-ceiling null which is right in the crossover region and with that huge suck out the presentation is audibly degraded.

Having more placement options is the key to all of this subwoofer stuff. What good is adding 6dB more power if the room/PLP sucks -20dB out of the response? Viewing the room in 3 dimensions opened up the path to flat response without ham-fisted signal manipulation.

After placement options is headroom. That's simply achieved through use of multiples, thus the 8 x 15" "system". As you increase drivers you increase displacement capability and sensitivity. Doubling the drivers is equivalent to doubling the power while at the same time reducing stress on the drivers and thus, non linearity.

BTH is correct. Long term power test results and muscle flexing is irrelevant. They all achieve the same when the amp is coupled with a 115V outlet. Soundtrack reproduction is all about transients. They're huge and very difficult to accurately measure let alone reproduce. That's why we use them in our tests. I've posted this before elsewhere and it generally gets lost in all of the dB sine wave drag racing that dominates these forums.

This is the 10 Hz centered CEA 2010 shaped tone burst followed by the Bourne missile strike and Hulk punch:


To each, his own. That's what makes the world spin. We get results. Good ones. Consistently. We've posted more data on the subject than anyone. We don't offer anything or post anything for attentionwhorefix, we do it for member's benefit. Take it or leave it. The train has long left the station for debating the results.
Thanks Dave. Maybe I will mock up a box at some point and compare response graphs at the same position, just to see. Time is not on my side these days!

 

My DIY Subs ... https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #302 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Ah, thought you had a 14k, which was the amp in question. In the case of the 14k, the limit is 190v. That's 380v bridged. Taking this into consideration, we can get the maximum power output into 5.23 ohms using the following formula:

(Vrms^2) / R

((380*0.707)^2)/5.23 = 13800. So, while this limit is within a decibel of the advertised limit, posting anything above that indicates flawed testing methods.
So, you've found that the VPL are perfectly accurate numbers against actual measured voltage peaks? It's a rhetorical question. The analog circuitry doesn't limit voltage peaks to precisely the number printed on the back of the amplifier. That would be a newsworthy discovery.

Maybe you should measure amplifiers and post results in your thread. Don't worry, we won't trash your thread with corrections, especially using a calculator.

Take this for what it's worth as my opinion... For high powered, wide bandwidth, sealed Home Theater subwoofer amplification duty, this amplifier is the best dollar value amplifier on the planet.



If it weren't, I would have the one that is.

Our test methods and results are our own and none of your nit-picking, petty business. If anyone doubts my claims, they can head on over to your Sanway thread and have at it, or load up with a gaggle of the latest low priced darling amplifiers or buy an alternative real subwoofer amplifier from Brian @ SpeakerPower.

Funny how you've pushed the Sanway stuff for years but never once doubted the agent's published measurement claims, even though, for one example, he posted 2 ohm specs for the $4,000.00 worth of amplifiers you purchased from him when they are not 2 ohm stable. Actually, it's not that funny.

You've made libelous claims that I slap a few components on a Sanway amplifier and double the price, that I am guilty of false advertising, that I'm shady and posts of that sort. You aren't relevant. Give it a rest. AVS doesn't require your white horse routine. I've been here a LOT longer than you have and I've posted accurate data and valuable information where you've posted grossly inaccurate data and a lot of abrasive quips about nothing, like "Maybe I'm just tired of people asking me stupid questions".
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post #303 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Thanks Dave. Maybe I will mock up a box at some point and compare response graphs at the same position, just to see. Time is not on my side these days!
I really wish you would because there's only one other person who has done that and I enjoy adding the data to my files. Some blocks of wood, a bit of sweat stacking the boxes in an up/down firing config, a few sweeps and post the results here. Would be much appreciated. But, I hear ya on the time thing. I swear days are less than 24 hours and shrinking.
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post #304 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
So, you've found that the VPL are perfectly accurate numbers against actual measured voltage peaks? It's a rhetorical question. The analog circuitry doesn't limit voltage peaks to precisely the number printed on the back of the amplifier. That would be a newsworthy discovery.

Maybe you should measure amplifiers and post results in your thread. Don't worry, we won't trash your thread with corrections, especially using a calculator.

You've made libelous claims that I slap a few components on a Sanway amplifier and double the price, that I am guilty of false advertising, that I'm shady and posts of that sort. You aren't relevant. Give it a rest. AVS doesn't require your white horse routine. I've been here a LOT longer than you have and I've posted accurate data and valuable information where you've posted grossly inaccurate data and a lot of abrasive quips about nothing, like "Maybe I'm just tired of people asking me stupid questions".
I'm not sure where the holier than thou rant is coming from, or how most of what you're going on about is even relevant. You buy off the shelf amps from China and resell them marked up by about 100%. If I posted something erroneous, it's trivial to dispute with a captured waveform or a couple pieces of key information. As for a calculator, you should try one some time. Your claims that you've "upped the cap rez" by 143% are off by about 100%.

You're welcome to fact check any data I publish. This is an open forum, and discussion will only lead to improvements. You're acting as a vendor now, so information you publish will be scrutinized.

Instead of engaging in a technical discussion, or even checking your data, you'd rather talk about who's been here longer and post more ads for your product, like that will suddenly make your claims factual. It won't.

The voltage regulators work. If they didn't work, you'd be selling quite defective amplifiers as that's a large margin to be off by. Even if that was the case, you ignore the fact that the rail voltage is 10-15 volts lower than necessary to support the figures you've published assuming proper test methods and not using heavily clipped signals.

As to not clutter up this thread, I've posted data about how the voltage regulators work on similar clone amps over here.

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post #305 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

You're welcome to fact check any data I publish.
I've tried, but you never answer:



You claimed your ported subwoofer adds +15dB of output at 14 Hz because of the "data" shown in your post. Using your "data" and logic, I posted Ilkka's outdoor measurement of the same driver in 200L sealed. I asked if this then means that Ilkka's single driver version will give +20dB of output vs your dual driver sealed measurement?

I also asked you to verify by posting >145dB @ 14 Hz from the ported version since you have already posted this bit of "data" that shows your sealed system giving >127dB @ 10 Hz with 7% THD and, according to your many posts in 2 threads on the subject, that should be simple to measure and post:



What I got was your typical abusive retorts and childish joke-making. No fact checking ever came from questioning your published data, so stop with that offer.

The same thing with your posted horn sub data, your posted mic shootout data, your Sanway thread and your accusations regarding what I sell, what it costs and what it sells for. All full of questionable "data" and outright lies.

So, just to clarify, you can ship me the same amplifier pictured above, 2nd day air FedEx with a 2 year warranty for $664.50? Very good, I'll take 100 of them. When can you ship? Probably right after you post the ported sub data, yeah?
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post #306 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
I've tried, but you never answer:

You claimed your ported subwoofer adds +15dB of output at 14 Hz because of the "data" shown in your post. Using your "data" and logic, I posted Ilkka's outdoor measurement of the same driver in 200L sealed. I asked if this then means that Ilkka's single driver version will give +20dB of output vs your dual driver sealed measurement?
Your selective memory is amusing. I've replied to this many times, though this is a complete strawman and not relevant to anything at hand. I guess you're still bent about the whole sealed vs ported thing. Is this what you resort to when Paul isn't around to provide technical responses for you? The mic I took that measurement with was damaged. I've even updated the posts to reflect that about a year ago. My claims were 12-13db, which is what was modeled and measured. Feel free to revisit the thread, it's linked in my sig, you'll see the edited date is July 2015. I even replied to you in 2015 regarding this, linked here.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
I also asked you to verify by posting >145dB @ 14 Hz from the ported version since you have already posted this bit of "data" that shows your sealed system giving >127dB @ 10 Hz with 7% THD and, according to your many posts in 2 threads on the subject, that should be simple to measure and post:
I don't recall this. Not saying it didn't happen, but I don't even have a mic that can measure that high, which I have stated on numerous occasions. Those levels were distorting the mic, it's a umik1 and as high as it goes. I've posted the accompanying graphs in my thread showing that, but you ignore that as well.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
What I got was your typical abusive retorts and childish joke-making. No fact checking ever came from questioning your published data, so stop with that offer.
I'm sorry that anything you don't agree with is considered abusive. I actually thanked you for pointing out the bad measurements, but again, selective memory. I've been trying to stay civil and on topic, but you'd rather discuss anything but what I posted about. The numbers provided don't mesh. If I'm wrong, I'm waiting for you to correct me and show why. This is a forum, we can all learn from each other.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
The same thing with your posted horn sub data, your posted mic shootout data, your Sanway thread and your accusations regarding what I sell, what it costs and what it sells for. All full of questionable "data" and outright lies.
Pardon me for providing information to the community, often at my own expense.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
So, just to clarify, you can ship me the same amplifier pictured above, 2nd day air FedEx with a 2 year warranty for $664.50? Very good, I'll take 100 of them. When can you ship? Probably right after you post the ported sub data, yeah?
Who said I could ship? The prices from China in bulk are about $650 per amp in quantity of 50 or more for the enhanced FP14000. I'm not a vendor and I'm not selling these. You're the vendor and making claims without supporting evidence.

You fail to acknowledge that the rails and the components of the amp run at a lower voltage level than is required to produce a clean signal at the power levels you've advertised into a resistive load of 5.23 ohms as you specified.

You also ignore the part about your bad math, but hey, I can see how you'd make that error. You could at least correct it. An increase of 143% is not the same as an increase of 43%.

Also, not that I'm going to report you, I'd much rather continue the discussion at hand on a technical level, but I'm pretty sure vendors aren't supposed to post advertisements for their products outside of the dedicated vendor forums.

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post #307 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
As for a calculator, you should try one some time. Your claims that you've "upped the cap rez" by 143% are off by about 100%.
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

You also ignore the part about your bad math, but hey, I can see how you'd make that error. You could at least correct it. An increase of 143% is not the same as an increase of 43%.
Your beloved Sanway amplifier has 10 caps @ 200V/3,000 uF each. Hopefully, we can agree that 10*3,000 = 30,000 uF. My amplifier has 14 of the same 200V/3,000 uF caps. Hopefully, again, we can agree that 14*3,000 = 42,000 uF.

Please take out your calculator and enter the number 30,000. Next, hit the X (times) button followed by entering the number 142 then the % button (that would be 142%, not 42%) and if the little LED screen does not then say 42,000, then please get you a 'nuther calculator.

The rest of your posts are your usual dodging the facts and insisting you're right when you are painfully obviously wrong. The mic was broken, the measurement was done quickly, REW wasn't calibrated, etc. I'm not bent about anything, especially anything you have to say about subwoofers. The bottom line is that your subwoofer never gave 127dB @ 10 Hz and your ported subwoofer cannot give +15dB more than it's sealed version at any frequency. My memory is perfectly intact.

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It might have been too close to the house *shrug*, ...the mic..., ...calibration file..., ...mic in vs line in..., ...difference is as expected..., just remeasured, ...difference is not as expected..., ...remeasured again...,
The point I tried to make and that was lost in all of that exercise of terribly bad sine sweep measurements is that they do not confirm any max output difference between the 2 designs. You don't quadruple Vb and add a pipe and get +15dB at any frequency and, goodness me, you certainly don't confirm that assertion by posting the "data" you posted.

On the amplifiers, yeah, dude... the enhanced version... $650 and that would be after you "thoroughly test" them. Gotcha. There's no way to even address this sort of nonsense. Stop.

BTW, I recently received an offer to buy your Sanway amps for $200. Prob the same amp, right?
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post #308 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Your beloved Sanway amplifier has 10 caps @ 200V/3,000 uF each. Hopefully, we can agree that 10*3,000 = 30,000 uF. My amplifier has 14 of the same 200V/3,000 uF caps. Hopefully, again, we can agree that 14*3,000 = 42,000 uF.

Please take out your calculator and enter the number 30,000. Next, hit the X (times) button followed by entering the number 142 then the % button (that would be 142%, not 42%) and if the little LED screen does not then say 42,000, then please get you a 'nuther calculator.
Now I see where the dispute comes from, 30,000 to 42,600 is actually a 42% increase (30,000 x 1.42), 30,000 to 72,600 would be 142% increase (30,000 x 2.42)
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post #309 of 394 Old 06-29-2016, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Your beloved Sanway amplifier has 10 caps @ 200V/3,000 uF each. Hopefully, we can agree that 10*3,000 = 30,000 uF. My amplifier has 14 of the same 200V/3,000 uF caps. Hopefully, again, we can agree that 14*3,000 = 42,000 uF.
Beloved? Lol. They're good amps, wouldn't say beloved. This isn't about any other amps, this is about claims you've put forth that are just invalid. But here you've just admitted to using 200v caps and publishing figures that require 205 volts of output.

Also, they're 3300uF caps in each. You should really check these numbers. I think you used the correct values in your original calculations, but definitely missed something here.


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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Please take out your calculator and enter the number 30,000. Next, hit the X (times) button followed by entering the number 142 then the % button (that would be 142%, not 42%) and if the little LED screen does not then say 42,000, then please get you a 'nuther calculator.
I better get another calculator. You know, if you actually put that into a calculator, it says 42600, not 42000.

I shouldn't have to explain how percentages work, but here goes.

Taking a trip back to 6th grade math, you've just calculated 142% of the original value. You're saying you've INCREASED it by that much. You have not. The wording matters. You might want to check out the khan academy for math refreshers. They have a lot of courses.

Using the correct values for the capacitors, 3300uF with 14 of them.
46200uF - 33000uF = 13200uF increase. 13200 / 33000 * 100 = 40. It's a 40% increase there. You've increased the original value by 40%.

I wonder where the other 2% went? I'll throw you a bone on this one.

You forgot the capacitors on the other side of the board. The original Sanway amps have 4x2200. The enhanced versions have 4x3300.

(4*3300 + 14*3300) - (4*2200 + 10*3300) = 17600. A 17600uF overall increase.

17600 / (4*2200 + 10*3300) * 100 = ~42

That's where you get 42%. It's an increase of 42%, not a 143% increase as you have published. That's a difference of 101%. Where did that other percent even come from? Lol. Please correct your marketing.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The rest of your posts are your usual dodging the facts and insisting you're right when you are painfully obviously wrong. The mic was broken, the measurement was done quickly, REW wasn't calibrated, etc. I'm not bent about anything, especially anything you have to say about subwoofers. The bottom line is that your subwoofer never gave 127dB @ 10 Hz and your ported subwoofer cannot give +15dB more than it's sealed version at any frequency. My memory is perfectly intact.
Painfully obviously wrong, like all the numbers you've been providing.

You claim 16kw into 5.23 ohms. A clean 16000w into 5.23ohms requires 205Vp of output. You just said you're using capacitors rated at 200v. The amps rails are at 195v, as well as the limiters. This falls 10 volts short.

And again, I never claimed 15db. I claimed 12-13, which the modeling and measurements support. If your memory is perfectly intact, you choose to ignore things to your liking. Again, irrelevant to the issue at hand, the obviously incorrect numbers you've been throwing around.

Are you saying 8 lms ultras cannot produce 127db at 10hz in room? C'mon now, that's just absurd, and yet more strawmen arguments to avoid the original topic.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
The point I tried to make and that was lost in all of that exercise of terribly bad sine sweep measurements is that they do not confirm any max output difference between the 2 designs. You don't quadruple Vb and add a pipe and get +15dB at any frequency and, goodness me, you certainly don't confirm that assertion by posting the "data" you posted.
I'm not sure why you're harping on this 15db number, when all I've ever said was 12-13. Strawman.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
On the amplifiers, yeah, dude... the enhanced version... $650 and that would be after you "thoroughly test" them. Gotcha. There's no way to even address this sort of nonsense. Stop.

BTW, I recently received an offer to buy your Sanway amps for $200. Prob the same amp, right?
My Sanway amps? I'm not sure where this even comes from.



Let's recap.

1) Your math is wrong.
2) You list the wrong values for components in the amp you sell.
3) You list max power output numbers that require more voltage than the amp can produce into the resistive load specified.

Instead of defending any of these claims, you provide more bad math, bring up Sanway amps like it has anything do with this, and my ported subs which have absolutely nothing to do with this.

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post #310 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 05:35 AM
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Now I see where the dispute comes from, 30,000 to 42,600 is actually a 42% increase (30,000 x 1.42), 30,000 to 72,600 would be 142% increase (30,000 x 2.42)
Not trying to imply anyone is right or wrong, however if you look to figure out the problem it seems this is the way to do it:
42600/30000 = 1.42 to figure out percent multiply by 100
1.42 x 100 = 142%

100 percent of 30000 is 30000
the difference between 42600 and 30000 is an increase of 42% so yet again according to everything I know looking it up online etc. This is more accurate.
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post #311 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 06:07 AM
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42,600 is a 42% increase over 30,000.

42,600 is 142% of 30,000 (i.e., it's 100% of 30,000 + 42% of 30,000).
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post #312 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Let's recap.

1) Your math is wrong.
2) You list the wrong values for components in the amp you sell.
3) You list max power output numbers that require more voltage than the amp can produce into the resistive load specified.

Instead of defending any of these claims, you provide more bad math, bring up Sanway amps like it has anything do with this, and my ported subs which have absolutely nothing to do with this.
Hey, Rob... I just measured my sub. Don't bother correcting me, I'll be able to explain any problems away later in a different forum. But, for now, this confirms my thorough simulation and expectation and math and everything.



To recap:

1) Wrong with horn sub data

2) Wrong with mic test data

3) Wrong with ported and sealed subwoofer FR and output claims

4) Miraculously spot on with your beloved Sanway numbers, and it only took 2 years or so to concoct them, like all of the data you've ever posted on any subject (and, yes... beloved. You get hosed with $4,000.00 in amps that aren't 2 ohm stable, watch dozens of members get hosed with faulty amps, have the audacity to call them good amps while you snark at members who your thread has led to slaughter as tiring you with too many dumb questions).

Sorry, but this is the exact reason to bring up Sanway. What's the failure rate of those amps, BTW? That's math you deem unimportant or the customer's fault? Make sure you get the percents right when you post that data. Still obviously upset that no one wanted to pay you to group buy and thoroughly check them or whatever your business plan was. But my amplifier offer is the real issue here? Nice try.

For the record, from past experience, I don't believe anything you post and never have. You blurt information without checking any of it and revise the information days, weeks, months or years later, as if someone cares. Like Adam said after your 1st post here, you're just here to pick a fight and report the guys you don't like who take the bait. Now Adam's gone from his own thread, polluted by your rude an silly hijack. Nice work.

And, from Wiki answers, or from asking anyone with a brain:

Quote:
Think of it like this, you have 2 dollars. 2 dollars is 100 percent, so 150 percent is 3 dollars.
You should probably get on the interwebz and correct those poor misguided false advertising folks to make yourself feel good.

Like I said... petty and nit-picking. ^^^ You get that Sanway failure rate to zero, get the price lowered by forgiving your kickback and get back to us. Never mind the whole calculator story and do something you should have done 5 years ago that will actually matter.

I'll take Paul's numbers over yours every day. You may catch up someday, if you keep at it as diligently as you are at checking my maths and whatever else keeps you posting in this thread.
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post #313 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 08:56 AM
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Omfg. You guys not capable of having a civil conversation at all.

There was an interesting discussion in here somewhere but....

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post #314 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Hey, Rob... I just measured my sub. Don't bother correcting me, I'll be able to explain any problems away later in a different forum. But, for now, this confirms my thorough simulation and expectation and math and everything.

To recap:

1) Wrong with horn sub data

2) Wrong with mic test data

3) Wrong with ported and sealed subwoofer FR and output claims

4) Miraculously spot on with your beloved Sanway numbers, and it only took 2 years or so to concoct them, like all of the data you've ever posted on any subject (and, yes... beloved. You get hosed with $4,000.00 in amps that aren't 2 ohm stable, watch dozens of members get hosed with faulty amps, have the audacity to call them good amps while you snark at members who your thread has led to slaughter as tiring you with too many dumb questions).

Sorry, but this is the exact reason to bring up Sanway. What's the failure rate of those amps, BTW? That's math you deem unimportant or the customer's fault? Make sure you get the percents right when you post that data. Still obviously upset that no one wanted to pay you to group buy and thoroughly check them or whatever your business plan was. But my amplifier offer is the real issue here? Nice try.

For the record, from past experience, I don't believe anything you post and never have. You blurt information without checking any of it and revise the information days, weeks, months or years later, as if someone cares. Like Adam said after your 1st post here, you're just here to pick a fight and report the guys you don't like who take the bait. Now Adam's gone from his own thread, polluted by your rude an silly hijack. Nice work.

And, from Wiki answers, or from asking anyone with a brain:

You should probably get on the interwebz and correct those poor misguided false advertising folks to make yourself feel good.

Like I said... petty and nit-picking. ^^^ You get that Sanway failure rate to zero, get the price lowered by forgiving your kickback and get back to us. Never mind the whole calculator story and do something you should have done 5 years ago that will actually matter.

I'll take Paul's numbers over yours every day. You may catch up someday, if you keep at it as diligently as you are at checking my maths and whatever else keeps you posting in this thread.

Rofl, more straw man arguments and more ignoring of everything relevant to the discussion. But that's your modus operandi and should be expected.

I don't make any kickback from Sanway. Wouldn't that be nice, though. Sanway even asked if I wanted to become a US vendor with very low pricing, which I declined. You can bash them all you want, I understand they're your competitor, but I have no ties to them. The user you're referring to admitted to wiring his amp up wrong and having it opened a number of times to modify it. Lets see how you respond when someone opens one of "your" amps, modifies it, hooks it up incorrectly and keeps trying to blast it hoping that it will work if he just turns the level up a little more. It will be even more amusing to see how you respond when they perform a chargeback.

The bit about the kickbacks really is amusing, especially since you're buying Botai amps and reselling them marked up by 100%.

On the other hand, I've purchased equipment and test gear just to provide information to AVS out of my own pocket. Gear that I had no intention of using so that I could provide measurements on it. I've spent quite a bit of time testing devices and providing the results. I get nothing from this. You on the other hand, are selling a product. This makes all the difference. You have provided nothing but bad numbers. When brought to your attention, you brush it off as nitpicking instead of correcting the errors.

Quote:
Think of it like this, you have 2 dollars. 2 dollars is 100 percent, so 150 percent is 3 dollars.
This is a correct statement. However yours is not. If I have 2 dollars, and I say I've increased it BY 150%, that means I now have 5 dollars.

Here's another example that may help you grasp it.

If I have 2 dollars, and I say I've increased it BY 100%, that means I now have $4.

If you've ever calculated sales tax, you should know how this works. Flinging insults with your bad math won't make it correct.


So far you have listed erroneous max power outputs, you've also listed incorrect values for the improvements to the "capacitor rez", and you've listed incorrect values for the components in the amp. This is confidence inspiring.


It's amusing how you just ignore everything that's related to the product you're selling and fail to acknowledge even the most trivial of math errors.

This is not the behavior one should expect from a vendor.

It's not nitpicking when numbers that you advertise for your product are erroneous, and in cases off by over 100%.

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post #315 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:58 AM
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Omfg. You guys not capable of having a civil conversation at all.

There was an interesting discussion in here somewhere but....

+1

Time to stop the back and forth, or take it to PM. Next complaint might get the thread closed, and for those of us interested in the product that would be a shame.

 
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post #316 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 10:54 AM
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+1

Time to stop the back and forth, or take it to PM. Next complaint might get the thread closed, and for those of us interested in the product that would be a shame.
Agreed, I'm done. I tried to keep it on topic, but it's clear he won't discuss the erroneous figures he advertises and will continue to post them. Nothing left to be said. The math's all there.

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+1

Time to stop the back and forth, or take it to PM. Next complaint might get the thread closed, and for those of us interested in the product that would be a shame.
Thank you very much!!
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post #318 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 11:52 AM
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Dave - curious, have you ever compared the performance of your vertically flanked driver design vs the more standard horizontal? I think I will need to make some new boxes soon now that I've moved into my new house (WAF of the old ones isn't great with the new place) and am curious as to the measured advantages. With the cost of all the cr*p we are doing on the new home, not sure I can convince the wifey that I need to buy your subwoofers...yet. Maybe save that for when/if I do a dedicated room in the basement.
Here's my take on this sub from a DIYer POV, as I've made a clone variation based on this.

I have these setup nearfield only because the room dictates that. I would prefer them at the front corners. It is what it is. Despite the fact that my FR would be very smooth with a front corner mount, what I have now is a nice improvement over the standard front/rear firing dual opposed I had prior.

Second, lower distortion. I get a decent decrease in distortion by stacking vs open driver. It's cool what a little mass loading will do. I notice a more effortless sound.

Third thing is how quiet the cab is. Now obviously this is a trademark of DO cabs. But,even with a thin-wall(1/4" Sonotube) cab, it's inert. Quick story. It's a process to access the back of my equip rack as I have to move the seating and slide this huge sub out. Well, I had a couple of my favorite large ceramic coffee cups missing for a bit. No clue where they went. So a couple weeks back I'm behind the rack working and the screen was lit up. I was seated and looking through the middle of the subs with the screen providing backlighting, I could see the silhouette of my cups. The subs pounding away and not a peep out of the cups. Hilarious.

Fourth, pressurization from the slot loading. This thing moves air. With mine placed nearfield, behjnd the seating, it's intense. Jupiter Ascendjng comes to mind. The ranch house skirmish with the pulse cannons is quite concussive and similar to a horn sub.

Fifth, aesthetics. It's really a pretty subwoofer and want you can do to personalize it, from a DIY prospective, is endless. Even though mine is hidden in an alcove behind the seating, it's the thing that grabs everyone attention. From "what is that?" and "what does that do?" to asking about the finish or other matching furniture.

Here's the build thread which I will update when I build the horizontal "stack" as I'll be using smaller cylinders than originally planned.

No Raptors were harmed in the making of these subs
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post #319 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 02:19 PM
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Exclamation A-14K Amp Data...



You're welcome for the idea notnyt. Just another great idea that you steal from our camp and don't give us any credit for. I didn't tell anyone but I already had a test rig back then before you started measuring amps. Since then I've measured every amp topology except class B into dynamic and resistive loads using both tone generators and actual source material. I am very thorough in my measurements, experiments and organization of data. So one can see why it would be insulting for notnyt to suggest that we would need to send him one of our amplifiers to test so that we would know how it would perform.

I made the decision not to post any of the data that I've collected. I used the data to learn about amplifiers because I have always been interested in them. I didn't have the time or energy to share my findings with the community. But now our claims have come into question so I will share the most basic details of the A-14K.

These are the results of the A-14K into 2 different resistive loads, 5.23 ohms and 10.43 ohms. The data is all from an A-14K operating in bridged mode. I list peak power values only. I don't believe average power should be considered in testing amplifiers for maximum output. Sine waves won't be absolutely perfect in form when pushing an amp to it's clipping point and the chips that calculate RMS values will introduce error in the measurements. I've also had more accurate results from using peak numbers when comparing various pieces of test gear to each other. Most importantly, RMS values do not relate to real world source material. Using RMS is more useful for thermal management in resistive loads, coils or busbars. Anyway, on to some numbers...

Maximum clean burst output at 10Hz


Clipping characteristic at 10Hz


Maximum burst output at 20Hz


Maximum clean sustained output at 15Hz

(What I mean by the text in the lower right is that I didn't record the limiter kicking in at 10 ohms in this measurement session -it was a note to myself)

Thermal Limiter

This is a visual of the A-14K's thermal limiting. The amp sustains 9594W for a shorter time period than 8593W and to protect itself it drops the output power.

The ultimate test of course is going to be how it deals with movies with bass with a complex frequency spread in the lowest frequencies like this powerful scene in TIH where Hulk punches Abomination. This is a SL shot of the output of the SEQSS after signal shaping.


Hulk Punch

This is maximum clean output right at the point where the current limiter starts to kick in.

We are not dishonest about what specs or measurements we publish. My amp testing methodology is comprehensive. IMO, the measuring amplifier thread is one of the most jumbled up, incomplete and confusing sources for amplifier power measurements that I've seen online. I'm not going to go into that thread and say anything negative though because that would be a waste of energy, not to mention petty. In the end we are all still learning. I'd much prefer to discuss our differences of opinion face to face with notnyt. I have high hopes that one day that can happen so that we can put it to rest once and for all.

I am going to disappear from here for a while again. I miss talking to many of you but I have very little time to devote to it these days. Again for the record, I do not lie about specs. I grew up in the time where I got to see companies start to inflate numbers to an insane degree and I never enjoyed that. If we say something measured a certain way, take it to the bank.
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post #320 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post
Now I see where the dispute comes from, 30,000 to 42,600 is actually a 42% increase (30,000 x 1.42), 30,000 to 72,600 would be 142% increase (30,000 x 2.42)
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
42,600 is a 42% increase over 30,000.

42,600 is 142% of 30,000 (i.e., it's 100% of 30,000 + 42% of 30,000).

Exactly. Correct.

A calculator is not even required to understand that 100% more of something means it doubles in value. The value has to be even higher with 142%. If the value didn't double (which it didn't) then it cannot be 100%+

Calculators are of no use if the person using them doesn't know how to use them.
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post #321 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 03:30 PM
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Oh, yay, finally something technical. Let's get down to business. I hope you're not using the same calculator as Dave, I think something might be wrong with his

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
You're welcome for the idea notnyt. Just another great idea that you steal from our camp and don't give us any credit for.

Your idea? Not really. Let's go look at Langston Hollands super bucket tests which I've referenced before those posts. The images are gone, but fortunately I saved the thread. This was from 2011, yet you claim credit for this, just like you guys claim that these amp designs are yours, and you aren't just putting faceplates on readily available amps from China. Let me guess, you pioneered the sonotube subs you sell also? C'mon now. And note, I'm not trying to take anything away from your subs or the amps you sell. They look great and perform great as well. I also won't dispute that Dave originally gave me the info about the clone amps from China, but trying to claim heating elements as your idea is not gonna fly.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I didn't tell anyone but I already had a test rig back then before you started measuring amps. Since then I've measured every amp topology except class B into dynamic and resistive loads using both tone generators and actual source material. I am very thorough in my measurements, experiments and organization of data. So one can see why it would be insulting for notnyt to suggest that we would need to send him one of our amplifiers to test so that we would know how it would perform.


Yet you've shared none of this data. How nice for you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I made the decision not to post any of the data that I've collected. I used the data to learn about amplifiers because I have always been interested in them. I didn't have the time or energy to share my findings with the community. But now our claims have come into question so I will share the most basic details of the A-14K.

I actually spent my time and money doing this, just for the community. I have nothing to gain from it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
These are the results of the A-14K into 2 different resistive loads, 5.23 ohms and 10.43 ohms. The data is all from an A-14K operating in bridged mode. I list peak power values only. I don't believe average power should be considered in testing amplifiers for maximum output. Sine waves won't be absolutely perfect in form when pushing an amp to it's clipping point and the chips that calculate RMS values will introduce error in the measurements. I've also had more accurate results from using peak numbers when comparing various pieces of test gear to each other. Most importantly, RMS values do not relate to real world source material. Using RMS is more useful for thermal management in resistive loads, coils or busbars. Anyway, on to some numbers...


Bolded part is so wrong it's painful. The RMS values are the effective DC values of AC voltage. You're not sending a square wave, you're sending a sine wave. You have to convert these values to RMS in order to convert to power. That's just how it works.

At least now we know your bad power numbers are coming from. You essentially have to take the numbers you've calculated and divide by 2, like I originally said.

All of your calculations are botched in this manner. You're also not calculating the voltage from a full cycle, just using the upper half of the swing. This is also poor form.


I'm glad you posted this, you've actually just proved my point entirely, and we can move forward with the discussion on a technical level. I'll just correct your 5.23 ohm tests, you can do the rest on your own time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Maximum clean burst output at 10Hz




You have a 580v swing here, using 292*2 is only taking HALF of a cycle into consideration as mentioned above.

Again, you MUST convert this to RMS since you're not sending DC to the amp, this is a sine wave.

CORRECT MATH: ((((292+288)/2)*0.707)**2)/5.23 = 8038 watts, not the 16.3kw you claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post

Clipping characteristic at 10Hz


CORRECT MATH: ((((308+288)/2)*0.707)**2)/5.23 = 8487W



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Maximum burst output at 20Hz

CORRECT MATH: ((((312+304)/2)*0.707)**2)/5.23 = 9066W



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Maximum clean sustained output at 15Hz

(What I mean by the text in the lower right is that I didn't record the limiter kicking in at 10 ohms in this measurement session -it was a note to myself)


You've even managed to mess up calculating wattage for a sine wave.

CORRECT MATH: ((((200+200)/2)*0.707)**2)/5.23 = 3822W


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
We are not dishonest about what specs or measurements we publish.


While it may not be your intention to publish the wrong values, you are. Simple things like a 42% increase of the capacitors being reported as 143%, and publishing wattage numbers using bad or incomplete math, means you're providing wrong and unreliable data.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
My amp testing methodology is comprehensive. IMO, the measuring amplifier thread is one of the most jumbled up, incomplete and confusing sources for amplifier power measurements that I've seen online. I'm not going to go into that thread and say anything negative though because that would be a waste of energy, not to mention petty. In the end we are all still learning. I'd much prefer to discuss our differences of opinion face to face with notnyt. I have high hopes that one day that can happen so that we can put it to rest once and for all.


The amp test thread is just a place for me to share the information until I get the time to centralize it and make it a much more useful resource. If you have anything to say, please do so. If there's something wrong, we all learn and benefit by correcting this. But I digress, you've already said you don't have time to share with the community.

While we may have our difference of opinions, I bear no ill will towards either of you. This is just an online forum where we're discussing something we're all passionate about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I am going to disappear from here for a while again. I miss talking to many of you but I have very little time to devote to it these days. Again for the record, I do not lie about specs. I grew up in the time where I got to see companies start to inflate numbers to an insane degree and I never enjoyed that. If we say something measured a certain way, take it to the bank.

*sigh* nobody enjoys it, hence my posts. If it's not intentional, it's just posting erroneous data. Nobody wins.

And for comparison, the old Sanway amps you guys are so fond of are bursting about 9700w bridged into 4.4 ohms at 10hz, and 11000 watts at 20hz. The numbers you listed are only 8500w and 9100w. You might want to look into that.


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post #322 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post


You're welcome for the idea notnyt. Just another great idea that you steal from our camp and don't give us any credit for. I didn't tell anyone but I already had a test rig back then before you started measuring amps. Since then I've measured every amp topology except class B into dynamic and resistive loads using both tone generators and actual source material. I am very thorough in my measurements, experiments and organization of data. So one can see why it would be insulting for notnyt to suggest that we would need to send him one of our amplifiers to test so that we would know how it would perform.

I made the decision not to post any of the data that I've collected. I used the data to learn about amplifiers because I have always been interested in them. I didn't have the time or energy to share my findings with the community. But now our claims have come into question so I will share the most basic details of the A-14K.

These are the results of the A-14K into 2 different resistive loads, 5.23 ohms and 10.43 ohms. The data is all from an A-14K operating in bridged mode. I list peak power values only. I don't believe average power should be considered in testing amplifiers for maximum output. Sine waves won't be absolutely perfect in form when pushing an amp to it's clipping point and the chips that calculate RMS values will introduce error in the measurements. I've also had more accurate results from using peak numbers when comparing various pieces of test gear to each other. Most importantly, RMS values do not relate to real world source material. Using RMS is more useful for thermal management in resistive loads, coils or busbars. Anyway, on to some numbers...

Maximum clean burst output at 10Hz


Clipping characteristic at 10Hz


Maximum burst output at 20Hz


Maximum clean sustained output at 15Hz

(What I mean by the text in the lower right is that I didn't record the limiter kicking in at 10 ohms in this measurement session -it was a note to myself)

Thermal Limiter

This is a visual of the A-14K's thermal limiting. The amp sustains 9594W for a shorter time period than 8593W and to protect itself it drops the output power.

The ultimate test of course is going to be how it deals with movies with bass with a complex frequency spread in the lowest frequencies like this powerful scene in TIH where Hulk punches Abomination. This is a SL shot of the output of the SEQSS after signal shaping.


Hulk Punch

This is maximum clean output right at the point where the current limiter starts to kick in.

We are not dishonest about what specs or measurements we publish. My amp testing methodology is comprehensive. IMO, the measuring amplifier thread is one of the most jumbled up, incomplete and confusing sources for amplifier power measurements that I've seen online. I'm not going to go into that thread and say anything negative though because that would be a waste of energy, not to mention petty. In the end we are all still learning. I'd much prefer to discuss our differences of opinion face to face with notnyt. I have high hopes that one day that can happen so that we can put it to rest once and for all.

I am going to disappear from here for a while again. I miss talking to many of you but I have very little time to devote to it these days. Again for the record, I do not lie about specs. I grew up in the time where I got to see companies start to inflate numbers to an insane degree and I never enjoyed that. If we say something measured a certain way, take it to the bank.
Again, I don't mess with RMS. Average power isn't useful information IMO. Do you even read my posts?
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post #323 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:00 PM
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Again, I don't mess with RMS. Average power isn't useful information IMO. Do you even read my posts?
Rofl, you just quoted your own post, good job.

You don't take a sine wave and use the voltage peak values to calculate power, that's just not how it's done. The power of a sine signal is based on RMS. The values you're calculating would be if the amplifier was outputting DC, not AC. It's not outputting DC. You're just doing it wrong. Divide all your values by 2 for them to be coherent.

What you're doing is essentially zooming in on a peak and using only a fraction of a cycle to calculate power output. This is junk. You should at least be using a full cycle to calculate your power values.


This is what you're doing. Watch RMS go up as you zoom in. This is rubbish, since it's not a full cycle.






You say you don't like seeing inflated numbers posted, but you're using the worst tactic of them all to do this.

p.s. thanks @LTD02 for the gifmaker link, quite handy!

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post #324 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:28 PM
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It's how I choose to do it Rob, it's not junk. I don't use RMS, I use peak voltage for peak power. Average power is half of peak power. Most amp manufacturers list peak power. This is well known in the industry. RMS is most useful for understanding heat ratings. It is impossible to accurately convert the power that an amplifier can deliver playing a scene from a movie with bass to average power. RMS values are then not very useful to me. I list peak power in both burst testing and in sustained sine waves at given frequencies and specify how much time the amp sustained a given tone. Then you can compare how the amp handles a sustained sine with complex source material from an actual movie using peaks as the reference. After doing this you have a good scope of data to determine the behavior of an amplifier.

RMS is a waste of time. Feel free to adopt my methodology, just give me some credit this time.
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post #325 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:31 PM
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Lovely, just when I thought things were going to settle down...

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post #326 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:43 PM
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I have teh subwoofers that produce teh bass systems yea? I plugs dem into wall and don't get anything to come out but funky smell? What is this things that I don't hear? Wife doesn't like smell and makes beats on my head everytime. I need a fix for this! Please somebody here help out my problems?

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post #327 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:51 PM
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I have teh subwoofers that produce teh bass systems yea? I plugs dem into wall and don't get anything to come out but funky smell? What is this things that I don't hear? Wife doesn't like smell and makes beats on my head everytime. I need a fix for this! Please somebody here help out my problems?
You need more power if 120VAC doesnt work use 240 and make sure there is plenty of water around you really need it to make sure you get max effect. As far as this thread goes it seems like it is going south at a dreadful pace but then again this is pretty much the norm around here.
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post #328 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I have teh subwoofers that produce teh bass systems yea? I plugs dem into wall and don't get anything to come out but funky smell? What is this things that I don't hear? Wife doesn't like smell and makes beats on my head everytime. I need a fix for this! Please somebody here help out my problems?
There has got to be a better smelling subwoofer out there.

Check you local Hallmark store.
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post #329 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 05:23 PM
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You need more power if 120VAC doesnt work use 240 and make sure there is plenty of water around you really need it to make sure you get max effect. As far as this thread goes it seems like it is going south at a dreadful pace but then again this is pretty much the norm around here.
Wills the Child Pool work for this? I run line to main neighborhood panel box for teh power?

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There has got to be a better smelling subwoofer out there.

Check you local Hallmark store.
I am here, where do I looks?

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post #330 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 05:26 PM
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Should be right there next to the sympathy cards.
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