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post #361 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
@Shreds
the fp14000 specs illustrate.
peak voltage is 195v per channel.
that is ~138v rms per channel.
138v rms ^2 / 8 ohms = ~2,377 watts per channel. the amp is spec'd at max power of 2,350 watts into 8 ohms per channel.
I was working on posting the same thing.

Here are the Lab Gruppen specs for the FP 14000:



One can clearly see that the "max output power" specs are derived from Volts RMS. Peak voltage is 1.414 * VRMS.
2 ohm voltage = squrt(7000*2)=118 VRMS=167 peak volts
4 ohm voltage = squrt(4400*4)=133 VRMS=188 peak volts
8 ohm voltage = squrt(2350*8)=137 VRMS=194 peak volts
16 ohm voltage = squrt(1200*16)=138 VRMS=195 peak volts


Peak to Peak voltage is shown as 580 Volts at 5.3 ohms. Anyone can plug those numbers into this calculator to determine max output power in watts.



One can't calculate maximum power from peak voltage just like you can't calculate mpg from whatever instantaneous mpg your trip computer happens to show at any given moment. I don't go around saying my car gets 132 peak mpg.
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post #362 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
One can't calculate maximum power from peak voltage just like you can't calculate mpg from whatever instantaneous mpg your trip computer happens to show at any given moment. I don't go around saying my car gets 132 peak mpg.
Hi Desert, peak power is double average power. That isn't a sine wave though so your calculator is going to be inaccurate. My way focuses on the top half of the waveform and gives the highest value (16302Wpk) that it hits in power at the given frequency. If you want to convert that to RMS it's half -8151W. I don't know why you would want to do that though because to truly come up with RMS for a burst you would have to define the beginning and the end of the period and it would be easy to drastically change the RMS calculations. If you are curious about the duration that it reaches that peak, there are many calculators you can find to figure that based on the frequency.

If you choose to use your calculator because that's what you're used to that's why I've included a visual with voltage and resistance numbers so anyone can plug the numbers into what they are used to using. Again, if that's how you want to do it, that's ok by me.
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post #363 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I don't know why you would want to do that though because to truly come up with RMS for a burst you would have to define the beginning and the end of the period and it would be easy to drastically change the RMS calculations. If you are curious about the duration that it reaches that peak, there are many calculators you can find to figure that based on the frequency.
You could choose one cycle, or use the p-p values of a CEA-2010 burst. This is fairly standard practice.


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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post

This is how I am presenting data. I have and will in the future fully disclose the differences in how I arrive at the numbers I arrive at. I'm doing this because I think it's a better way, not to deceive anyone.
Are you going to address the fact that some of it is just plain wrong?

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
We've recently measured the burst capability of the A-14K amp with the latest tweaks at around 16KW into a dummy load of 5.23 ohms and 8KW for 2 seconds sustained into the same load.
Ignoring the fact that 16kw is going by voltage peak numbers, you clearly state you sustained 8kw for 2 seconds. You've just specified a time window, peak power does not apply. I hope you understand this, and can take some time to consider why posting numbers like that cause issues.

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post #364 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:37 PM
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@Shreds
i wasn't questioning your integrity.


i was just noting that where you said, "I don't use RMS, I use peak voltage for peak power. Average power is half of peak power. Most amp manufacturers list peak power."


there is no such thing as "peak power", "average power", or "rms power", though those terms do get thrown around avs and other forums quite a bit. they are made up marketing terms or terms used by folks who aren't clear on their meanings. "peak" and "average" (and "rms") are terms that apply to voltage.


i suspect the problem here is that power has a clear definition in physics and everybody (except behringer who fudges it a little) uses the term to mean the same thing. you are using it differently.


where amp companies refer to "burst" or "max" power, they are still using averaging. it is just averaged over a reduced number of cycles, such a 5, 10, or 20 instead of something like a 60 second test. i have never seen an amp company, even behringer, report any power rating based on peak voltage. that would be rubbish.


also, just a heads up for your business, in the united states, amplifiers that are sold to consumers have strict definitions for how they market power. 50 years ago, it got so out of control the government had to come in and set a standard. that is why all receivers/amps/etc. report the same way. the pro amp companies get around that standard because their customers are "professionals" who are expected to know better. if your customers are not professionals, then you have to follow the consumer convention or you can be sued and you will lose because violation of a code is a violation of a code. see "amplifier rule" 1974 and confirmation of the "amplifier rule" in 2010.


the convention that you must follow is listed in this document:
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/fi...lerelating.pdf
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post #365 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 09:55 PM
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I think you all are over-reacting to this. Peak power is used all the time and nobody gets sued over it. Are all the manufacturers showing as much data as I show in 1 post for a sub amp? Which manufacturer of amps shows scoped waveforms of the amp reproducing actual subwoofer out content? I have no doubt that these laws exist because the consumer gets lied to and ripped off with a product that doesn't deliver. A lot of good they do by the way, it's not like most amps don't fall short of their ratings. Like I've said, this is how I test amps, I present plenty of data and I'm completely up front about how I arrive at my conclusions to my customers. Again guys, it's real simple: divide by 2 and you have your RMS if that's what you're into.
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post #366 of 394 Old 06-30-2016, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I think you all are over-reacting to this. Peak power is used all the time and nobody gets sued over it. Are all the manufacturers showing as much data as I show in 1 post for a sub amp? Which manufacturer of amps shows scoped waveforms of the amp reproducing actual subwoofer out content? I have no doubt that these laws exist because the consumer gets lied to and ripped off with a product that doesn't deliver. A lot of good they do by the way, it's not like most amps don't fall short of their ratings. Like I've said, this is how I test amps, I present plenty of data and I'm completely up front about how I arrive at my conclusions to my customers. Again guys, it's real simple: divide by 2 and you have your RMS if that's what you're into.

Are you going to address the fact that some of it is just plain wrong? The posts still read 143% increase to the capacitors, when in reality its 42%. The power numbers posted are also wrong in places, even ignoring the whole peak debacle you've found yourself in.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
We've recently measured the burst capability of the A-14K amp with the latest tweaks at around 16KW into a dummy load of 5.23 ohms and 8KW for 2 seconds sustained into the same load.
You clearly state you sustained 8kw for 2 seconds. You've just specified a time window. Power must be calculated over this duration. The number you've provided is off by a factor of 2. There's no getting around it with weak explanations about peak vs rms when you're using a straight up sine wave and specifying a duration.

You can keep ignoring this, it won't make it right :/ You express disdain for this practice, but then engage in it anyway. The amps are impressive, you don't need to fudge the numbers.
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post #367 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Again, I don't mess with RMS. Average power isn't useful information IMO. Do you even read my posts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Hi Desert, peak power is double average power.
RMS is not average power. RMS isn't even power. It is voltage.

Quote:
That isn't a sine wave though so your calculator is going to be inaccurate.
If it isn't a sine wave, then power will always be less. This is because of the higher crest factor. In that case you want to calculate the Peak-To-Average Power Ratio (PTAP).

Quote:
I think you all are over-reacting to this. Peak power is used all the time and nobody gets sued over it.
Peak power is calculated from RMS voltage, not from peak voltage. I already explained how Lab Gruppen correctly shows peak power based on RMS voltage. You are redefining what "peak power" means.

MPG is a rate of energy transfer in relation to distance. You can't take the energy used at any given point and calculate mpg.
Watts is a rate of energy transfer in relation to time. You can't take the energy used at any given point and calculate power.

You can show graphs all you want of voltage over time, but if your calculation doesn't include time, then it is invalid.

You might want to read this paper by Bob Lee at QSC called Solving the Power Puzzle.



Notnyt has been completely correct and I appreciate his patience in explaining things.
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post #368 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 09:55 AM
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Our scopes do not calculate RMS very accurately especially as the waveform gets more complex. This is pretty well known.

These are all 20Hz sines. 10.2 * 1.414 = 14.42Vpk
10 * 1.414 = 14.14Vpk
10.3 * 1.414 = 14.56Vpk

Going by RMS with this tool introduces more error than going by the peak of the waveform. If this tool has this kind of unreliable result on a pure sine wave can you even imagine how badly off it would be when dealing with a complex waveform like this:


I use peak numbers because it's more accurate with the tools I have to measure with and I compare sine waves with real world source material. There is no way for me to use RMS for that.

I'm not simply listing random numbers, I'm showing the time scale, frequency and voltage of everything measured. That is more than enough information to see how the amp performs. If you want average numbers, divide the peak power by 2 and the result will be more accurate than if I used RMS on the scope.

As far as playing a movie scene all you can calculate is the highest peak of the scene and compare the outputted waveform with the small signal waveform to see if the signal is being clipped. The amp that plays the highest peak of the scene the highest, wins. I care about that a lot more than steady waves.

I'm not arguing that you guys are wrong about anything, follow whoever you want to. I do things a bit differently which I'm allowed to do. The information you all go by is still there for you to interpret how you want to.
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post #369 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 10:01 AM
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for sine wave testing. multiply the peak values by 0.707. When you're stating 8kw for 2 seconds, this is flat out wrong. There's no getting around that. Also, I see the capacitance increase still listed as a 143 percent
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post #370 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Our scopes do not calculate RMS very accurately especially as the waveform gets more complex. This is pretty well known.

These are all 20Hz sines. 10.2 * 1.414 = 14.42Vpk
10 * 1.414 = 14.14Vpk
10.3 * 1.414 = 14.56Vpk
That just shows that VRMS is over time and the peak has varied slightly. RMS isn't calculated from a single maximum peak on an oscilloscope. It all depends on what integration time you are using.

Quote:
Going by RMS with this tool introduces more error than going by the peak of the waveform. If this tool has this kind of unreliable result on a pure sine wave can you even imagine how badly off it would be when dealing with a complex waveform like this:
No, it is more accurate. That is why sine waves are used instead of a complex waveform.

Quote:
I use peak numbers because it's more accurate with the tools I have to measure with and I compare sine waves with real world source material. There is no way for me to use RMS for that.
If I said, "The temperature today is 70 and tomorrow it will be 20% hotter," what will the temperature be tomorrow? You can't give an answer because there is no such thing as a percentage of temperature. In the same way, peak numbers and power don't relate. I can output 126 peak volts into an 8 ohm load and the actual watts can be anywhere from 20 to 992 watts. The peak volts by themselves don't tell me anything about the power output. This was explained in the QSC document I linked to earlier.

Quote:
I'm not simply listing random numbers, I'm showing the time scale, frequency and voltage of everything measured.
You are missing RMS which is necessary to calculate power.

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
for sine wave testing. multiply the peak values by 0.707.
Shreds multiplied VRMS by 1.414 which is the same.

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If I said, "The temperature today is 70 and tomorrow it will be 20% hotter," what will the temperature be tomorrow? You can't give an answer because there is no such thing as a percentage of temperature.
I think if this question was given in a school test, and if the students didn't answer 84, then they would be marked wrong.

Not passing judgment on any of the rest of this discussion, just that degrees is a number and 20% more of a number is still a number.

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post #372 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 12:43 PM
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To clarify:

We don't buy anything from Botai, we don't sell anything from Botai. We've tested their amplifiers in the past when they first formed. They did not have the now so-called "enhanced" amplifier then. They got that idea from us. The amps were not 2 ohm stable, some of which were not even 4 ohm stable with <10 Hz content and the output devices were junk. notnyt should spend an extra 15 seconds and let us in on who the B&T of Botai are instead of incorrectly guessing where he thinks we source our amplifiers and publishing his guesses as fact. Not that we don't appreciate most of his stuff as humorous, we always appreciate a good laugh.

But, seriously, cease and desist already with the imagined in on the when, where, how, how much and what of our amplifiers. You're as wrong about all of that as you were about what you were about to buy when you emailed me 5 years ago.

I rue the day I gave notnyt the Sanway information, thinking I was just helping him save a headache by steering him away from the agents he was ready to hand a lot of money over to. I never imagined he would turn it into an AVS vendor thread. The Sanway thread suggests AVS members buy products that blatantly violate patent rights without mentioning that they do. The products are not disclaimed as being B stock, refurbished or returned and not repaired, otherwise referred to as DOA, which they are to a far greater extent than any industry standard, all of the above, thus the lower pricing and flip-of-the-coin mentality that's imparted to purchasers who get a dud. We've fielded many requests for help with Sanway amplifiers that don't operate properly after purchase. That is mostly because there is no help from the OP, who we have heard about and read about countless times has told members not to bother him about problems, told them it's their fault, told them he is tired of stupid questions and even blamed them for whatever problems they may have asked for help with. If any thread should be closed, it's that one.

I apologize to Adam. It was me who brought the hyenas who've wasted pages over nothing because I don't post anywhere else. There are apparently a few seriously hurt guys who will never get over it, whatever it is. There's Luke with his car sub stuff, DD with his Spectrumlab stuff and notnyt with his series of humorous subwoofer builds, microphone baloney and Sanway. There's no other reason for them to be in this thread and they don't care to get any real answers or they would take this nonsense to PM.
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post #373 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 12:51 PM
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I think if this question was given in a school test, and if the students didn't answer 84, then they would be marked wrong.

Not passing judgment on any of the rest of this discussion, just that degrees is a number and 20% more of a number is still a number.
Percentage needs to have a baseline. It's a relationship of the part to the whole. Temperature doesn't have a baseline or a whole entity. Where are the starting and stopping values? What if the temperature is -10 or 0?

Time can't be expressed in percentage either. You can't say, "He is always 5% late." 5% of what? Temp and time have relationships expressed in absolute values.

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Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
I think if this question was given in a school test, and if the students didn't answer 84, then they would be marked wrong.

Not passing judgment on any of the rest of this discussion, just that degrees is a number and 20% more of a number is still a number.
That's where you have to be careful. Relativity. There's no right answer because there's no measurable standard. DD didn't even mention if it Celsius or Fahrenheit that he was referring to. So we can't draw a conclusion there. If I told you what temperature does things boil, you would more than likely answer 212 degrees. Change elevation and pressure and its plus or minus a decent amount. Water boils st 203 degrees in Denver. The boiling of R12 is -21 degrees. So zero degrees to R12 is hot, it's gas state.

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You guys still buy your Raptor drivers from that car subwoofer place, SEAO Audio (Shenzhen) Co., Ltd?

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I apologize to Adam. It was me who brought the hyenas who've wasted pages over nothing because I don't post anywhere else. There are apparently a few seriously hurt guys who will never get over it, whatever it is. There's Luke with his car sub stuff, DD with his Spectrumlab stuff and notnyt with his series of humorous subwoofer builds, microphone baloney and Sanway. There's no other reason for them to be in this thread and they don't care to get any real answers or they would take this nonsense to PM.
You still haven't corrected the misinformation you're so eager to spread. Also, you buy woofers from a car audio vendor in China, but call out Luke? Like his choice of woofers has anything to do with the fact that you don't grasp basic mathematics? You have industry leaders that say you're engaging in less than honest behavior, but you completely ignore it. You post bad math, and when corrected, completely ignore that. I don't see how anyone can trust you as a vendor when this is the behavior you engage in.
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post #377 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
As far as playing a movie scene all you can calculate is the highest peak of the scene and compare the outputted waveform with the small signal waveform to see if the signal is being clipped. The amp that plays the highest peak of the scene the highest, wins. I care about that a lot more than steady waves.

I'm not arguing that you guys are wrong about anything, follow whoever you want to. I do things a bit differently which I'm allowed to do. The information you all go by is still there for you to interpret how you want to.
There's nothing wrong with looking at which amp will produce the highest voltage peak with various signals both simple and complex. The problem comes when equating it to an amount of power that will then be used as a basis for comparison by people who don't know any better, which has been covered here already. I'd suggest rating your amplifiers with an instantaneous peak voltage and peak current if you wish to highlight the very short term burst capability and do not equate it to power at all. Then use the standard, "rms" method, of calculating long term power/current/voltage used by the majority of reputable mfg's and outlined in numerous standards and articles covering amplifier measurements and ratings. I don't doubt that the amps are brawny as hell but the ratings and test procedures should be clear and concise if veering away from normal industry practice.

As an aside...Many amplifier engineers I've talked with would do away with the power ratings completely and simply specify voltage and current capabilities or even dBw. Power ratings are mostly a product of the marketing dept's because they want a single easy to understand answer for consumers.
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post #378 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Percentage needs to have a baseline. It's a relationship of the part to the whole. Temperature doesn't have a baseline or a whole entity. Where are the starting and stopping values? What if the temperature is -10 or 0?

Time can't be expressed in percentage either. You can't say, "He is always 5% late." 5% of what? Temp and time have relationships expressed in absolute values.
I think you can do % math on temperature. BUT I concede that 5% hotter or 12% colder are EXTREMELY unusual ways of trying to convey useful information. Probably even intentional obfuscation.
20% hotter than 0 degrees = 0 degrees.
20% hotter than -10 degrees = -8 degrees

5% late is impossible to do WITHOUT assuming. I could assume that it meant 5% of an hour, which would be 3 minutes. But assuming is not good practice.

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post #379 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 01:45 PM
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I think you can do % math on temperature. BUT I concede that 5% hotter or 12% colder are EXTREMELY unusual ways of trying to convey useful information. Probably even intentional obfuscation.
20% hotter than 0 degrees = 0 degrees.
20% hotter than -10 degrees = -8 degrees

5% late is impossible to do WITHOUT assuming. I could assume that it meant 5% of an hour, which would be 3 minutes. But assuming is not good practice.
0 degrees in what unit? If you're using Celsius, 20% hotter is about 55C if you're using absolute 0 as a reference, so the math you've provided isn't accurate

Kind of pointless digression, but amusing still

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post #380 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 02:00 PM
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0 degrees in what unit? If you're using Celcius, 20% hotter is about 55C if you're using absolute 0 as a reference, so the math you've provided isn't accurate

Kind of pointless digression, but amusing still
You don't need units to do math on numbers. You do the math then just throw on the units at the end in the result.

How can you calculate that 55 degrees Celsius is 20% hotter than 0 degrees Celsius? 0 degrees Celsius is the reference point. Not some number that you pulled out of cold air.

You don't even know how to spell "Celcius" correctly! Sheesh!
Did you get your math degree mail order from China?


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post #381 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
You don't need units to do math on numbers. You do the math then just throw on the units at the end in the result.

How can you calculate that 55 degrees Celsius is 20% hotter than 0 degrees Celsius? 0 degrees Celsius is the reference point. Not some number that you pulled out of cold air.

You don't even know how to spell "Celcius" correctly! Sheesh!
Did you get your math degree mail order from China?

Rofl, did spell it wrong. The math is still right

0 degrees Celsius is the point at which water freezes. There is still a value of heat there, so 20% hotter than that is not the same value.

Convert 0C to degrees Kelvin, a system which uses absolute 0 as it's 0 degree point, and you get 273.15K. 20% more than that is 327.28K, back to Celsius is 54.63C.

See how that works?
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post #382 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Rofl, did spell it wrong. The math is still right

0 degrees Celsius is the point at which water freezes. There is still a value of heat there, so 20% hotter than that is not the same value.

Convert 0C to degrees Kelvin, a system which uses absolute 0 as it's 0 degree point, and you get 273.15K. 20% more than that is 327.28K, back to Celsius is 54.63C.

See how that works?
I am going to change my mind on this argument. Not because you've made good points (which you didn't) but because I'm smarter than you. If you were smarter, you would know that.

Let me explain it in simple terms. Try to keep up.

The units for "hotter" have not been specified (the units could be degrees, heat index, UV radiation, etc, etc) therefore it is not possible to know if "hotter" and "degrees" are relatable. Without knowing if they are relatable, then it is not possible to compute a 20% more value.

Because you ended up on my side (the correct side), but for the wrong reasons, I am taking back half of the deserved nasty things I said about you. So you either have 50% less nasty, or 50% more niceness. Do the math.
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post #383 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 04:19 PM
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AVS must be happy with all this.

Audio hardware is serious business. Screw this "enthusiast" crap. This ain't just some hobby. This is about life and death....and maybe a decibel or two.
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post #384 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 04:38 PM
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Omg...I was enjoying a nice technical discussion and now we have a total distraction! Please, let's stay on topic about amps and not celsius vs fahrenheit!
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post #385 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 04:46 PM
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Omg...I was enjoying a nice technical discussion and now we have a total distraction! Please, let's stay on topic about amps and not celsius vs fahrenheit!
Yes!

Let's continue with the he said, she said, bickering, arguing, name calling, false statements, statements made up on the fly, misinformation, lies, half lies, truths, half truths, and on and on.......

That will be sooooooooooooooooo much better than talking about the weather.

Damn it's hot out! Must be at least 10% hotter than yesterday.

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post #386 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 04:54 PM
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No, more like 110% hotter than yesterday.
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post #387 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 05:07 PM
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No, more like 110% hotter than yesterday.
No no...the temperature is 110% of what it was yesterday.


EDIT:
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post #388 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 05:09 PM
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I'd like to go back to the posts where one guy says 'we can double the amplifier power by putting it in a trash can full of water' and the other guy says 'that is a stupid idea, and besides I already had that idea, it worked, and I have photos to prove it'. Those were fun posts.

Last edited by XBR11; 07-01-2016 at 05:48 PM.
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post #389 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 06:50 PM
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There's nothing wrong with looking at which amp will produce the highest voltage peak with various signals both simple and complex. The problem comes when equating it to an amount of power that will then be used as a basis for comparison by people who don't know any better, which has been covered here already. I'd suggest rating your amplifiers with an instantaneous peak voltage and peak current if you wish to highlight the very short term burst capability and do not equate it to power at all. Then use the standard, "rms" method, of calculating long term power/current/voltage used by the majority of reputable mfg's and outlined in numerous standards and articles covering amplifier measurements and ratings. I don't doubt that the amps are brawny as hell but the ratings and test procedures should be clear and concise if veering away from normal industry practice.

As an aside...Many amplifier engineers I've talked with would do away with the power ratings completely and simply specify voltage and current capabilities or even dBw. Power ratings are mostly a product of the marketing dept's because they want a single easy to understand answer for consumers.
Hi Ricci. Like I've said, I gave plenty of data including the conversion to average power (divide peak power by 2) many times now. There shouldn't be any confusion about any of the specs on the amp at this point, I've included easy to understand visuals, frequency, voltage, time and power numbers. That is far above and beyond the vast majority of what amp manufacturers show.

For my tools, RMS consistently comes out less accurate than using peak voltages into resistive and dynamic loads. Also, peak voltage of the waveform of source material is the only option that I have. I also think that using peak power instead of average is much more intuitive for the new comer to the game. The dip switches on the back of the amp in fact limit the peaks of the voltage waveforms. This means that it sets the peaks of the power of the amplifier. Involving RMS voltages for ratings would end up being much harder to explain to people who are new to this subject while the back of the amp deals in peaks.

Anyone who is used to using average power for all of the ratings has more than enough information to get the numbers that make the most sense to them. I'm not that interested in what the rest of the industry does. I think that using RMS figures as a standard for amplifier power made it all too easy to confuse people and inflate numbers. I don't see how converting AC to the DC equivalent of heating helps me understand how much power an amplifier puts out any better. There should be a graph of transient burst, sustained output at a given frequency and source material waveforms listed for all amps. This would eliminate any BS overnight. It would also be nice to see it go back to the days where speaker builders included the freq res of the speaker.

Anyway, hope all his well back at Data-Bass and I appreciate the suggestions.

Last edited by Shreds; 07-01-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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post #390 of 394 Old 07-01-2016, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
AVS must be happy with all this.

Audio hardware is serious business. Screw this "enthusiast" crap. This ain't just some hobby. This is about life and death....and maybe a decibel or two.
Face it......were all nerds looking for a cage match and now we got it.
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