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post #91 of 1126 Old 11-26-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustcap View Post
Interesting thought, I didn't consider the 21.0 as an option for me so far. I'm not an expert but quite interested in technical aspects, so here are some questions:

Can you name any measurable reasons for the better sound of the 21.0 over the 15.0 and the 18.0? Or is this just your listening impression?

21-inch drivers are said to have potential disadvantages in impulse response compared to 15-inch drivers because of their higer moving mass and power requirements. I know this is no irrefutable law and the result depends on how the particular construction is carried out, but can you tell a bit of how the 15.0, 18.0 and 21.0 compare to each other in this category?

As far as I know the amps used are all Class D. Though this is a very efficient technique, the amps are equipped with fans. So this one goes out to all Funk owners in this thread: What's about fan noise? Have you experienced any fan noise, is any audible especially during silent movie scenes and if so, how loud or distracting is it? Do fans only start to work with high loads or even at lower output?




And to further explain my interest in a 15.2: It is based on my sympathy for dual opposed designs, which provide high output from comparatively small cabinets, smoother bass radiation and totally inert cabinets. All dual opposed / push-pull designs I know of are praised for their excellent mid bass punch and extreme precision and musicality, such as the Ken Kreisel DXD 12012 or the Seaton Submersive. Unfortunately in my opinion the former doesn't have enough output, especially when considering its costs. And the latter was quite interesting for me until I realized that Mark Seaton seems to prioritize its American customers given the fact that his and other forums are full of complaints of overseas customers who weren't able to contact him for weeks regardless of numerous efforts, even after they already placed their order and paid all costs. As I am from Germany, non-availability and poor customer care from a manufacturer without any European distribution or subsidiary are totally inacceptable for me. In addition, even after 8 years of availability no independent tests and measurements of the Submersive are available and Seaton doesn't seem to have any interest in providing some, which also doesn't further my confidence in his business politics.
In contrast you provide detailed measurements of your subs, tests are available, your products seem to use higher grade components, show excellent craftmanship and look damn sexy in my opinion.

Costs are not my top priority but unfortunately an aspect, I can't ignore, especially in the background of my wish to get dual subs and my location. So one final question: Can you estimate shipping costs of two 21.0 and two 15.2 to Germany?

Thank you in advance for all answers!
The 21 uses the same motor as the 18.2, so it actually has higher force/moving mass ratio than the 18.0, a little lower than the 18.2. The 15 uses the same motor as the 18.0, so it has a higher force/moving mass ratio than the 18.0, but still not quite as high as the 21. The 21/18.2 motor has lower power compression and lower distortion, and higher top end efficiency. The efficiency and low compression in the top end is what gives you the clean loud "punch".

The 21.0 to Germany would be about $350ea for shipping, over listed price, the 15.2 would be about $300ea.

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post #92 of 1126 Old 11-27-2014, 03:50 AM
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Ok, so what you describe are the differences between the motors of the TSAD 18 V1 and V2, right?

This leads me to another question: Is it possible to get a 18.0 with the TSAD 18 V2 instead of V1? Would there be any audible improvements in sound quality between these options? And how much would costs increase with the V2?
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post #93 of 1126 Old 11-27-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustcap View Post
Ok, so what you describe are the differences between the motors of the TSAD 18 V1 and V2, right?

This leads me to another question: Is it possible to get a 18.0 with the TSAD 18 V2 instead of V1? Would there be any audible improvements in sound quality between these options? And how much would costs increase with the V2?
That's correct,

In the 18.0 size box the V2 motor on the 18 offers some benefits but the 21 offers better use of the enclosure size, for very little extra cost compared to an 18V2, and offers most of the same benefits. That's why we built it vs. a single 18 with the V2 motor. One other reason is the optimal enclosure size for the 18V2 is so small it is not very stable(moves around too much at high output).

fyi; our shipping company is offering us even better prices right now for overseas than usual, not sure how long it will be going for though. The 21.0 would be $200 over list, the 15.2 would be $150 to Germany right now.

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post #94 of 1126 Old 11-30-2014, 03:55 AM
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Ok thanks, sounds really interesting. As I mentioned, this is a project for later 2015. Before making any decisions, I have to decide for a new house. My final choice also depends on the dimensions of my future listening room. Currently I'm in the phase of collecting information about possible candidates for subs. If I decide for Funk, you'll hear from me. In the moment your products sound most promising, that' for shure.
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post #95 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 12:03 PM
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Brief initial thoughts on my dual Funk 18.0 (active and slave unit)

Sorry it has taken me so long to leave some comments on my subwoofers. I have been more busy than usual at work, so this will be my brief thoughts rather than a full review.
Order, build and delivery:
I asked for Nathan to make me a pair of 18.0 subwoofers as a active and slave pair that would match my Martin Logan Montis dark cherry speakers. I also asked him to make them a bit darker. I paid him on September 12th through paypal and he started working on them right before RMAF 2014.
The build time took about roughly 2 months which I expected. He shipped through DHL which ended up being a bit of a hassle, but not due to Nathan but because the delivery guy refused to deliver them without help.

Packaging and build quality:
The packaging was fantastic, about on par with Martin Logan's packaging of the Descent i's. The arrived undamaged. They are simply gorgeous, I feel the pictures do not do them justice. The veneer is nearly flawless. I am very impressed with the look of the subwoofers.

The hook-up and setup:
The slave unit hooks up to the active unit with a very nice connector supplied by Nathan. The amplifier can run from 1 XLR cable, 2 XLR cables summed into 1 signal for both subwoofers or 2 XLR cables running a different signal to each subwoofer. It is a hugely flexible unit. allDSP was easy to use after Nathan gave me a password. I connected the subwoofers, adjusted the subwoofers volume, ran Audyssey, adjusted the distance of the subwoofer using REW until I had the best bass possible, then boosted the bottom end of the 18.0's through allDSP and got to listening. I will say that that process took a few cycles with moving the subwoofers around into different locations. I did have a ground-loop hum issue and that was solved with an in-line XLR ground isolator.

Sound:
Here are my measurement comparisons between the descent i and 18.0 with neither pair of subs being driven anywhere near their limits:


You will notice that my measurements only show the 18.0's adding a small amount of boost at 10-20hz. I found that interesting and I couldn't get them to be flat to 10hz in my room. I do admit that my room is an acoustical nightmare and I cannot add room treatments, but that shouldn't really hurt the low end extension. What the graph doesn't show is how much more power I heard and felt from the 18.0s. Watching movies I definitely have a much more tactile experience. The only issue I had with them so far is they localize more than the descent i's, so I can tell the bass is coming from them, but only at high volumes.

Comparisons:
My favorite past subs were the SVS PB13 Ultra and ML Descent i. I would take any of these subwoofers again. The only reason I sold my PB13 was because they were not integrating well with my Montis Speakers, but before I had the Montis, they gave me all the bass I could need and worked perfectly well for music and movies. My Descent i integrated and "disappeared" better than any other subwoofer I've had and were my favorite for music, likely due to their perfect integration with my main speakers. Unfortunately they ran out of low-end steam on movies. The Funk are clean, powerful, relatively compact, beautiful and integrated fairly well. If I had to buy the Funk's again I would, but I'll probably just save up and buy the 18.2's in the future. If you forced me to pick my favorite, I could not, they all had their own benefits, but I currently love my 18.0's and I will be happy with them for a while.

Thanks to Nathan for his hard work. I would recommend working with him to anyone looking for a new sub.

I will continue to post thoughts as I listen to these subs.
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My work in progress: Sony KDL65w850a, Oppo 105D Darbee edition, Marantz 7702, Marantz 8077, W4S mAMPs, W4S DAC1-LE, Sonus Faber Olympica III, Dual Funk Audio 18.0, Sonos, ML center and surround speakers, cheap Onkyo Atmos speakers for now, decent cables (Cardas, Pangea, Bluejeans), APC H15 power conditioner, Logitech Harmony Ultimate (for the wife obviously), Roku, minimal GIK acoustic panels...
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post #96 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newAVphile View Post
You will notice that my measurements only show the 18.0's adding a small amount of boost at 10-20hz. I found that interesting and I couldn't get them to be flat to 10hz in my room.
Try disabling the HPF and LPF filters and add a Low Shelf (20 Hz | Q 20 | 10 dB Gain):


That should rock your world...
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post #97 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 06:15 PM
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newAVphile - When you're using REW to EQ your subs, disable smoothing. 1/6th smoothing is fine for a 5 Hz - 20 kHz chart, but if you want to see what's going on under 100 Hz you should turn smoothing off. You can't fix problems that you can't see.

Disable Audyssey, tweak AllDSP, run the Audyssey setup, then measure. If need be, go into AllDSP again after the Audyssey setup to fine tune the response.
* Audyssey stops EQ'ing your subs when it reaches the -3dB point. If you enable a Low Shelf PRIOR to running Audyssey, then Audyssey will smooth the sub's response to the lower -3dB point.

For reference, here's an OmniMic chart for my Funks (60 Hz XO) -
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Last edited by henrich3; 12-05-2014 at 07:38 PM.
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post #98 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post
Try disabling the HPF and LPF filters and add a Low Shelf (20 Hz | Q 20 | 10 dB Gain):


That should rock your world...
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post
newAVphile - When you're using REW to EQ your subs, disable smoothing. 1/6th smoothing is fine for a 5 Hz - 20 kHz chart, but if you want to see what's going on under 100 Hz you should turn smoothing off. You can't fix problems that you can't see.

Disable Audyssey, tweak AllDSP, run the Audyssey setup, then measure. If need be, go into AllDSP again after the Audyssey setup to fine tune the response.
* Audyssey stops EQ'ing your subs when it reaches the -3dB point. If you enable a Low Shelf PRIOR to running Audyssey, then Audyssey will continue to smooth the sub's response to the lower -3dB point.

For reference, here's an OmniMic chart for my Funks (60 Hz XO) -

Awesome!!! Thank you for the advice! I will mess with the settings as soon as I have time and post my improvements.
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My work in progress: Sony KDL65w850a, Oppo 105D Darbee edition, Marantz 7702, Marantz 8077, W4S mAMPs, W4S DAC1-LE, Sonus Faber Olympica III, Dual Funk Audio 18.0, Sonos, ML center and surround speakers, cheap Onkyo Atmos speakers for now, decent cables (Cardas, Pangea, Bluejeans), APC H15 power conditioner, Logitech Harmony Ultimate (for the wife obviously), Roku, minimal GIK acoustic panels...
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post #99 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 09:13 PM
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PS to newAVphile - Just noticed in your earlier post that your dual 18.0 has 2 amps. Don't forget to enter all your AllDSP changes in both "Out 1" and "Out 2".

Cheers!
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post #100 of 1126 Old 12-05-2014, 09:54 PM
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Those subs are beautiful newAVphile!

I was just drooling over your Descent on eBay. I have always wanted to try one of those subs.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"
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post #101 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by newAVphile View Post
Awesome!!! Thank you for the advice! I will mess with the settings as soon as I have time and post my improvements.
Before you do what henrich did. Make sure you confirm with Nathan first if it's okay

You can see his Warranty Page here:
http://www.funkaudio.ca/shipping-and-warranty.html

Henrich's system is a Quadzilla and I think is a bit more capable. That would be 4x 18" TSAD18V1s in 1 enclosure.

We don't want you to blow up your new subwoofer by adding too much boost in certain areas

Thank you for the detailed review! haha poor delivery guy.
One thing that might help you notice the difference between that and other subwoofers is my playing drums or listening to shot gun blasts. They would be significantly tighter and clean making it not sound as "loud", mostly due to the lack of distortion.
Welcome to the club of tight & Low distortion bass

Henrich3's Sub is ridiculous. Anyways, I wonder if his house got cracks yet
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Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Funk Audio - Line Array(2kW),18.2 Subwoofer (9.6kW)[]Projector: Epson 5020ub []Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 8.1 x64
Cabling: Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
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post #102 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 04:13 AM
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Those subs are beautiful newAVphile!

I was just drooling over your Descent on eBay. I have always wanted to try one of those subs.
Thank you! I actually had 2 Descent's, I gave one to my brother to go with his soundbar... needless to say his audio is a bit bass heavy . I see you have a fv15hp, I have been meaning to hear how they sound, I might even buy one in the future just to hear how they sound.

My work in progress: Sony KDL65w850a, Oppo 105D Darbee edition, Marantz 7702, Marantz 8077, W4S mAMPs, W4S DAC1-LE, Sonus Faber Olympica III, Dual Funk Audio 18.0, Sonos, ML center and surround speakers, cheap Onkyo Atmos speakers for now, decent cables (Cardas, Pangea, Bluejeans), APC H15 power conditioner, Logitech Harmony Ultimate (for the wife obviously), Roku, minimal GIK acoustic panels...
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post #103 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 07:33 AM
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Before you do what henrich did. Make sure you confirm with Nathan first if it's okay
Nathan's the one who suggested the Low Shelf to me after we spoke about improving the low end response in my 18.0. If the Low Shelf results in any bad noises, it's simple enough to lower the gain a bit. In any case, you're not going to hurt the TSAD driver by cranking that bad boy up. It's built like a tank!
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post #104 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You have an 18.0 too? :O woah...

Quilted Bubinga? I do not think I may have seen that one. Must of been in the previous thread.

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Funk Audio - Line Array(2kW),18.2 Subwoofer (9.6kW)[]Projector: Epson 5020ub []Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 8.1 x64
Cabling: Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
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post #105 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 08:16 AM
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^^^
Yup. Brindle Bamboo. The review's in the Funky Waves thread. Here's a pic:

Last edited by henrich3; 12-06-2014 at 08:28 AM.
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post #106 of 1126 Old 12-06-2014, 12:43 PM
 
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Seems like Nathan got a new Video!
Anyways here it is on Youtube, Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-3Q...xuPk9mPTW5jzrg
Nice! Video of my speaker build! Thanks Nathan.
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post #107 of 1126 Old 12-16-2014, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post
Nathan's the one who suggested the Low Shelf to me after we spoke about improving the low end response in my 18.0. If the Low Shelf results in any bad noises, it's simple enough to lower the gain a bit. In any case, you're not going to hurt the TSAD driver by cranking that bad boy up. It's built like a tank!
That is correct, if you are not utilizing the full headroom of the subwoofers you can "use it up" in the low end by boosting aggressively, if you hit the limiters just reduce the boost a little.

Any bad noises you would hear would be the limiters(the current limiter can sound like driver bottoming, but its not), the 18.0 is setup to be nearly impossible to damage the driver, the amplifier will limit first.
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post #108 of 1126 Old 12-16-2014, 11:52 AM
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The only times that I've heard knocking type sounds from my 18.0 have been a few seconds near the end of X-Men: First Class when Magneto repells the missle attack, and the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow during the super high SPL tones that play down to 10 Hz. The X-Men knock issue resolved when I lowered the gain of the Low Shelf from 11 to 10 dB and lowered the sub's gain in the AVR by 1 dB. I haven't retested the intro to Edge of Tomorrow since the gain updates however. Since that wicked loud & low tone burst seems to be unique in it's ability to punish subs that have their limiters disabled, I just made a mental note to play that scene a little softer than my usual MVC -10 to -12 rather than neutering the low end response of my subs to accomodate it.

The ability to optimize Funk subs for my room using AllDSP, the bullet-proof TSAD drivers, the high-end finishes, and the ability to order custom designs (eg. Quadzilla) put Funk Audio subs on a higher level than any other sub one can buy IMO. My Funk subs still put a smile on my face whenever I kick back to watch a big action scene. I highly recommend them to anyone still sitting on the fence!
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post #109 of 1126 Old 12-16-2014, 12:09 PM
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I will mess with the settings as soon as I have time and post my improvements.
How's it going?
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post #110 of 1126 Old 12-16-2014, 12:29 PM
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How's it going?
Sorry for taking so long to post... I will post more in the future with graphs and more thoughts. For now, I'm still extremely happy with the subwoofers. I don't think they're any "quicker" or "tighter" than the Descent i, but that's not a bad thing, the descent i was pretty accurate. I already enjoyed the subs for movies before your recommended settings, but after your settings these subs really show how powerful they are, and I'm nowhere near bottoming them out. I also changed from the marantz AV7701 to the AV7702 which has Audyssey xt32 and dual sub control so I let audyssey do its thing. FYI I had some hum issues with the funk audio subs and the AV7701, but I'm happy to say that I have no hum issues with the 7702. Anyway, bottom line is, I love the subs, and your advice was extremely helpful and I thank you for it. I will finish getting them dialed in a hopefully post again within the near future.
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My work in progress: Sony KDL65w850a, Oppo 105D Darbee edition, Marantz 7702, Marantz 8077, W4S mAMPs, W4S DAC1-LE, Sonus Faber Olympica III, Dual Funk Audio 18.0, Sonos, ML center and surround speakers, cheap Onkyo Atmos speakers for now, decent cables (Cardas, Pangea, Bluejeans), APC H15 power conditioner, Logitech Harmony Ultimate (for the wife obviously), Roku, minimal GIK acoustic panels...
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post #111 of 1126 Old 12-16-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by newAVphile View Post
I also changed from the marantz AV7701 to the AV7702 which has Audyssey xt32 and dual sub control so I let audyssey do its thing.
Here are a few post-Audyssey tweaks that can help to improve the sound:
- Disable Audyssey's Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.
- Ensure that your speakers are configured as "Small".
- Set all the crossovers to 80 Hz, assuming that your speakers play that low.
- Increase the subwoofer channel gain in your AVR by 6-8 dB.
- Increase the center channel gain by 2 dB.

Play a variety of music that has a strong low end. The Eagles Farewell I Tour Blu-ray concert video works well for this. If the low end sounds too strong or weak, readjust the sub channel gain as desired.

Play some movies with reference quality bass. The War of the Worlds Blu-ray, pod emergence scene, should sound spectacular if everything's setup properly. X-Men: First Class is another bass-fest.

Happy tweaking!
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post #112 of 1126 Old 12-18-2014, 09:36 AM
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I forgot to post my latest results with the Dual Funk 18.0C and DXD12012 integrated together. My Funk 18.0C's are now connected directly to my router which makes it super easy to make instant changes from the couch wirelessly.




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post #113 of 1126 Old 01-04-2015, 05:54 PM
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I forgot to post my latest results with the Dual Funk 18.0C and DXD12012 integrated together. My Funk 18.0C's are now connected directly to my router which makes it super easy to make instant changes from the couch wirelessly.


That is a nice curve.

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post #114 of 1126 Old 01-04-2015, 08:07 PM
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@ BIGBEAR2004


Well done! That's some sweet looking response
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post #115 of 1126 Old 01-05-2015, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Funky Waves View Post
That is a nice curve.
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@ BIGBEAR2004


Well done! That's some sweet looking response
Thanks! These subs blend in so well with my speakers and sound very realistic that they no longer sound like subwoofers at all, but sound like its naturally coming from the action on the screen. They're stealthy, yet very powerful when called upon.

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post #116 of 1126 Old 01-11-2015, 08:48 AM
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Thanks! These subs blend in so well with my speakers and sound very realistic that they no longer sound like subwoofers at all, but sound like its naturally coming from the action on the screen. They're stealthy, yet very powerful when called upon.
This is the result of accurate low distortion bass, you are hearing exactly what was intended by the people creating the audio track, nothing more nothing less.
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post #117 of 1126 Old 01-15-2015, 07:18 AM
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post #118 of 1126 Old 01-15-2015, 08:18 AM
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The 21.0's look sweet!
They sound as good as they look.

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post #119 of 1126 Old 01-15-2015, 02:12 PM
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This is the first time I look at Funk. Very nice looking subs. Would love to have that 21. But can not spend that much on sub.
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post #120 of 1126 Old 01-15-2015, 02:18 PM
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Have you tried to hit ref level with those C's? I like that flat FR. Im curious how much SPL you can get out of it.
The Dual 18.0C has no trouble playing at reference level from my AVR without stressing out in my room. At reference levels walls start to wobble, door shakes, things on tables tend to fall to the ground...it just rattles everything! I am unable to get REW to take readings at high levels as it won't allow me to, and with everything shaking around the room it would ruin the results anyway. I have been spending a lot of time nailing things down, and reinforcing my room to eliminate rattle noise but I can't stop it all especially from the back door. Honestly, the bass feels like club level bass to give you a perspective on how loud they can get.
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