Yet another crossover question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 8 Old 11-14-2014, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
MG428's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 180
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yet another crossover question

In my 7.1 system, I own Aperion Intimus 5B bookshelf speakers and a 5C center speaker along with a HSU STF-2 subwoofer connected to Denon AVR-2808AVR with a single mono cable where I swtiched the crossover switch on the sub to "out", thereby everything is handled by the AVR, and not the subwoofer. As a side note, in the AVR the speakers are set to Small and the subwoofer mode to LFE.

Specs are as follows:

1) Aperion Intimus 5B
Frequency Response:
(+/- 3dB) 75-20,000 Hz
(+/- 6dB) 62-22,000 Hz
Receiver Crossover Point: 80Hz

2) Aperion Intimus 5c
Frequency Response:
(+/- 3dB) 60-20,000 Hz
(+/- 6dB) 53-22,000 Hz
Receiver Crossover Point: 80Hz

3) HSU STF-2
Frequency Response:
(+/- 2dB) 25 - 100 Hz
Crossover Point: It says leave to the receiver if crossover switch is set to "out", but 90Hz is recommended if it is set to "in" or the sub is connected to the receiver with speaker wires. So there seems to be a tendency for recommending 90Hz for crossover.

QUESTIONS:

Of course you guys may recommended "try and see" but my ears are not as educated as yours and therefore I would prefer to choose the optimum, if not the best, crossover setting instead. In this regard I need to choose among different alternatives recommended by different manufacturers and so-called rule of thumb which you may find below.

In this regard:

1) Should I apply Aperion's 80Hz setting, and if so, to all speakers, including the subwoofer?

2) Should I apply HSU's 90Hz setting, and if so, to all speakers, including the subwoofer?

3) There seems to be a rule of thumb that says one must add X Hz to the bottom frequency response for best crossover setting. In this regard, most say "20Hz", some say "at least 20Hz", someone says "add 10Hz if the bottom frequency response is less than 100Hz, and 20Hz if more than 100Hz". In this context:

a) Which frequency response range should I take into consideration? Because, as you would see, Aperion mentions two ranges in terms of (+/- 3dB) and (+/- 6dB) whereas HSU mentions only one as (+/- 2dB). What does this (+/- XdB) mean anyway and how can I relate HSU's range to the others as they are not common?

b) For the sake of the argument, let's assume that I'd need to take (+/- 3dB) range into account, and that the proper rule of thumb is +20Hz. In this case I'd need to apply different crossover settings to my front and rear speakers than my center speaker because the buttom frequency response rate of 5B bookshelves are 75Hz, which would yield to 95Hz and therefore either 90Hz or 100Hz setting, whereas the 5C is 60Hz, which would yield to 80Hz setting.

c) Does this so-called rule of thumb also apply to the subwoofer? Because, when I want to apply a blanket crossover setting, I could set as low as 40Hz for all speakers, but if I set crossover for each speaker, then my Denon receiver allows me to set as low as 80Hz for the subwoofer.
MG428 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 Old 11-14-2014, 12:42 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
In your (c), your avr has a normal xover for speaker to sub and some other xover for the sub? Is that second one an LPF for LFE channel perhaps?

Curious, are you using your avr's room correction to set up xover and if so what did it set xover at? Personally I'd start at 80, and maybe try 90 and 100 as well. Anyone else's ears aren't as important as what you're hearing in your room in any case....
lovinthehd is offline  
post #3 of 8 Old 11-14-2014, 02:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,413
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5369
Alan P is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 8 Old 11-16-2014, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
MG428's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 180
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
In your (c), your avr has a normal xover for speaker to sub and some other xover for the sub? Is that second one an LPF for LFE channel perhaps?
I am not using my Denon's auto calibration, which came up with a crossover setting of 80Hz, only for the center channel, for some odd reason.

In my Denon AVR2808CI receiver, if one wants to set xover manually, he can set xover from 40Hz to 250Hz or so for all channels. Alternatively, he can set it for each channel under an "advanced" setting which comes before the 40Hz setting. In this case the same range from 40Hz to 250Hz is available for all channels except LFE, which can be set only between 80Hz to 250Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I second that - what crossovers did Audyssey come up with??
80Hz, only for the center channel. I don't why it did not set a xover for other channels.

------------------------------------------------------

Update to my previous post: All in all, there seems to be 5 different settings, 3 recommended by different pieces of equipment in my system, and 1 by the so-called rule of thumb, and 1 that recommends different settings for rear speakers: My AVR recommends 80Hz (for center channel only, for some odd reason), Aperion recommends 80Hz, HSU recommends 90Hz. Then there is this rule of thumb of adding 10Hz or 20Hz to the buttom frequency response, which yields to different settings to my 5B and 5C speakers, despite Aperion recommends the same setting because their buttom frequnecy response value are different. Last, according what I read in a forum, some people applies +20Hz to their surround speakers.

So;

1) Have you guys heard of this so-called rule of thumb of adding 10Hz or 20Hz to the buttom frequency response?

2) Have you heard of applying +20Hz more to the rear speakers?

3) Audyssey came up with -12db channel level for the subwoofer. Is this normal? Because, compared to my other speakers, this is way low.

4) Why did Audyssey came up with a xover setting of 80Hz only for the center channel? In other words, why it did not come up with a xover setting for front and rear speakers as well as the subwoofer? Is this normal?

5) Would you apply one xover setting to all speakers or different for each? What would be your setting?

Last edited by MG428; 11-16-2014 at 06:31 AM.
MG428 is offline  
post #5 of 8 Old 11-16-2014, 11:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,767
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1005 Post(s)
Liked: 767
Usually it is a good practice to set the XO 10-15 Hz higher than the weakest speaker's FR. For example the center speaker is 60 Hz to 20 kHz, then a XO of 70-75 would be ideal. Unless the speakers are mismatched, a global XO is good and no need to set a separate XO for each speaker. XO's in the avr are meant for one main purpose, to protect the driver. It has nothing to do with a XO of 60 sounding better than 80 Hz or letting the mains do there things. These are subjective things with no science behind it.

The sub should blend with the other speakers at the XO to help achieve a smooth transition for the room FR.

Last edited by derrickdj1; 11-16-2014 at 11:28 AM.
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #6 of 8 Old 11-16-2014, 12:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
digler84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 582
first off, i don't know if you are talking about setting the sub at 90hz on the sub dial itself, or setting it that way in the receiver, but you should have the sub crossover dial all the way up to the max and use your avr to do the crossover work. assuming this is the case, i would say just use 80hz as the crossover for your front 3 speakers, and not knowing what your rear surrounds are, but assuming they are the same bookshelves as the front, i would say keep those at 80 as well. you could also experiment with setting them all at 80, see what you think, then set them at 90 and see if you think it blends better. either way, based on what you have i would stick with 80 at the very least.

one side note too, you mentioned your correction software setting the sub at -12. is this the outer limit of what it would be set at? in other words, does your receiver have a max of -12 in that setting? if so, and you are hitting that limit, you may want to re-run the audessey until you get -9 to -11 or so. basically, if you are at -12 and at the limit, it could actually be -15 or -100 for that matter, but your software caps at -12. if you get to say -10, then you know you aren't hitting the limit and from there most people bump the trim by 4-6db. you could start at the -10 and play something you are familiar with, and bump the trim by 1 until you get to the point that that same source material(i use a particular scene from a movie and keep replaying the same scene) sounds the best.

overall, keep in mind that the crossovers are not hard walls where it just stops playing everything and room acoustics can play a factor in how each speaker reacts. nothing wrong with running audessey and then playing around with the trims to find the perfect settings for your room.
digler84 is offline  
post #7 of 8 Old 11-16-2014, 12:56 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG428 View Post
I am not using my Denon's auto calibration, which came up with a crossover setting of 80Hz, only for the center channel, for some odd reason.

In my Denon AVR2808CI receiver, if one wants to set xover manually, he can set xover from 40Hz to 250Hz or so for all channels. Alternatively, he can set it for each channel under an "advanced" setting which comes before the 40Hz setting. In this case the same range from 40Hz to 250Hz is available for all channels except LFE, which can be set only between 80Hz to 250Hz.



80Hz, only for the center channel. I don't why it did not set a xover for other channels.

------------------------------------------------------

Update to my previous post: All in all, there seems to be 5 different settings, 3 recommended by different pieces of equipment in my system, and 1 by the so-called rule of thumb, and 1 that recommends different settings for rear speakers: My AVR recommends 80Hz (for center channel only, for some odd reason), Aperion recommends 80Hz, HSU recommends 90Hz. Then there is this rule of thumb of adding 10Hz or 20Hz to the buttom frequency response, which yields to different settings to my 5B and 5C speakers, despite Aperion recommends the same setting because their buttom frequnecy response value are different. Last, according what I read in a forum, some people applies +20Hz to their surround speakers.

So;

1) Have you guys heard of this so-called rule of thumb of adding 10Hz or 20Hz to the buttom frequency response?

2) Have you heard of applying +20Hz more to the rear speakers?

3) Audyssey came up with -12db channel level for the subwoofer. Is this normal? Because, compared to my other speakers, this is way low.

4) Why did Audyssey came up with a xover setting of 80Hz only for the center channel? In other words, why it did not come up with a xover setting for front and rear speakers as well as the subwoofer? Is this normal?

5) Would you apply one xover setting to all speakers or different for each? What would be your setting?
Does sound like an LPF for LFE rather than a xover (which only affects those sources that have actual .1 LFE channel content, not bass in general). Generally 120 hz is recommended as the usual limit of the LFE channel content. What does your avr manual describe this as?

I generally set my crossovers at 80hz unless the speaker isn't capable (and I generally go with 10-20 hz above the speakers' lower end of its +/- 3 dB range (remember xover isn't a brick wall, too, it's a gradual slope). Hard to comment on what your surrounds or rear surrounds are set since you don't mention what speakers they are. What does your manual say about auto setup only setting the center? Did it set your L/R to full band/large? That's not unusual for the fronts but that's not Audyssey, that's Denon; Audyssey recommends all speakers to small and a xover of 80hz.

Your subwoofer if showing trim setting of down 12db means you have the gain on the sub too high, turn the gain down on your sub. If you're not using the auto setup, then not understanding how you set individual channel levels....did you use an spl meter? How did you adjust distance/delay for the sub (it often isn't the actual distance)?

I'd still recommend using the Audyssey setup and adjusting speakers to small, and only crossovers if they are set too low for your speakers.

Last edited by lovinthehd; 11-16-2014 at 01:46 PM.
lovinthehd is offline  
post #8 of 8 Old 11-16-2014, 01:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
digler84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Liked: 582
i meant to say that too, that it makes a huge difference in overall blend when you use audessey and run it in full. for the longest time i would run it and only do for the MLP during the mic measurements. my thought was, why should it matter at the other seats? well, eventually after reading and realizing exactly when audessey is doing, i finally ran it for all 8 mic readings. it really made a huge difference in what i was hearing. everything just blended so much better than before, and it definitely sounded more dynamic. to a point you are wasting your time worrying about crossover points if you aren't even using the tool to it's full potential as it was meant to. trust me, run it all the way through, make some adjustments to the sub channel and you will hear a difference.
digler84 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off