Oh snap! Jtr cap 1400 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 891 Old 04-20-2015, 09:16 PM
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I have now received a PM's from three other members interested in a LA group buy. I was thinking about getting two. Between us we may have the four minimum for a group buy and free shipping. However, was interested in teak veneer finish which would delay delivery for 2-3 weeks. Is that acceptable to you guys to save $150?
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post #122 of 891 Old 04-21-2015, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
At the blind subwoofer test a couple years ago no one was accurate on picking out seal vs ported vs folded horn. A well designed subwoofer will sound good.
That matches my experience too. I have several ported and sealed and there's really not a lot of difference. I generally think sealed is better for small rooms where you get decent room gain while ported is better for larger rooms. Sometime ported in a small room yields too much gain near the port tune. But, you can always correct with dsp.
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post #123 of 891 Old 04-23-2015, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by superbabyboy1984 View Post
I may be in for 1. Im 10mins away from Van Nuy. I already placed an order Echo18 from RA.If there is nothing going on next two weeks,i will cancel that order and jump in Cap 1400 deal instead.
It looks like so far we have orders for three (3) Cap-1400's for a Los Angeles Group Buy. Your order would put us over top for the free shipping.

Both JTR and RA are using the identical ICEpower modular ASC/ASX amplifier rated at 700w @ 4 ohms per module. The 18" driver in the Cap-1400 is rated at 4 ohms so JTR is using two ICE modules with 700w @ 4 ohms for each half of the dual voice coil driver. The 18" driver in the Echo 18 is rated at 3 ohms so RA is using one ICE module with 925w @ 3 ohms for the single driver (the Gama 218 gets two ICE modules with 925w @ 3 ohms for each of the dual opposed 18" drivers). The JTR Cap-1400 has a stronger motor strength at 256 (bl^2/re).

With the more powerful motor and 1400w amp, the Cap-1400 should outperform the Echo 18 substantially. At the normal price of $1,999 for the Cap-1400 and $1,399 for the Echo-18 you'd be paying a $600 premium for the performance differential. But both are on sale now at $1,599 for the Cap and $1,299 for the RA. Assuming you can join the LA group buy for free shipping, that's only $300 difference between the two subs. At $300 the JTR is demonstrably the better value and performance leader.

Before someone gets hitched and puts on the wedding ring, it's normal feel some uncertanity and flirt with the other 'Bells at the ball". I need two subs and have been considering dual RA Gama 218's versus dual JTR Cap-1400's. At $3,249 for the pair of RA 218's and $3,198 for the pair of Cap-1400's (group buy), the pre-sale price differential is only $51. The price to performance ratio between the two subs is negligible. So I've been debating which one is better for my specific application and requirements, not which one is a better price to performance value. If I was looking at purchasing only one sub, I believe that the JTR would be the winner by a long shot hands down.

However at the same price/performance, I must consider my specific requirements: (1) behind the LP for near field effect, (2) reinforce and LFE in a 10,000 cf room, (3) blend with with 12 Martin Logan electrostatics, (4) integrate with a DTS-10 corner loaded across the room, and (4) balance out front to back localization. That's why I've been rehashing the old debate between which is better for a large room: four Sealed 18's or two ported 18's. It seems like a no-brainer the four sealed 18's would outperform two ported 18's but when you look at jbrown's comparison graph below the ported had the advantage between 15-30 Hz (even if you move the sealed curve up +3db to account for double 18's).

I'm not chasing sub 15 Hz performance in a 39' x 49' room where I calculate only 5 db room gain at 5.5 Hz. I am however interested in tactile sensation and chest slam for movie special effects. Ive read that the loudest LFE you 'hear' is between 40-80 Hz, the loudest LFE you 'hear/feel' is between 17-35 Hz, and the LFE you don't hear but it 'oscillates' your walls/suspended floor is between 8-15 Hz. In my application, the concrete slab floors and open walls (sheared with 3/4 ply for earthquake safety) in in such a large space are not going to oscillate unless I get a divorce and fill the living room with multiple refrigerator sized subs, so 8-15 Hz is meaningless.

When I first set this system up, it was 7.2 Martin Logans with a Lexicon MC1 processor primarily for music and my multichannel SACD collection. As I got more into movies, I swapped processors to a Marantz AV8801 and kept adding other Martin Logans until I was up to 12 channels (I'm using a 3bx DSP for center rear channel). I'm also pre-wired for R/L-side height and R/L-overhead height channels but that's for later when they sort out the codex's for Atmos/Auro/DBX. I love the sound of electroststs and saved up for my first pair of Quad 57 ESL's instead of a car when I was 15. Since then I've had stacked Quads, KLH-9's, Dayton Wright, Acoustats, Beverage, Infiniti servo static and now Martin Logans. At one point in the 1980's I bought an entire B&W Matrix setup to use as a second system just for home theater, but I eventually came back to the stats.

However, as my hearing has gotten older, our usage has shifted more toward movies, and I started hanging around AVSforum, dynamic range has become as importance as hearing the most intricate ambiance and details. I love the setups I've hear from Seaton Sound at T.H.E. Show in Newport and would like to hear the comparable offerings from JTR. At some point I might consider changing from hybrid stats to cones and horns. However, in the mean time the Logan's are limited in the dynamics for movie soundtracks. Blending the woofers in the Martin Logan stats with either the dual Cap-1400's or dual Gama 218's will mean I can't play the subs really loud unless I swap out my whole system. I hope you don't have to play it loud to get a tactile feel if you have output in the right Hz range. I'd like to buy something that would blend with what I have now and keep up with the more dynamic system I might get in the future.

I'm leaning towards the JTR's simply because I've wanted a pair for so long that to consider anything else would be AVS heresy and create too much 'cognitive dissonance' in my mind. However in the back of my audio-addicted brain the controversy between dual sealed 18's and dual ported 18's for a large room with electroststs rages on until the pay-pal button is hit and the dasterdly dead is done.

But for superbabyboy1984 or anyone else thinking about the choice between ONE Ecco-18 (or) ONE Cap-1400, I'd say: 'Dam the torpedoes, full steam for Captivator-land right away!"
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post #124 of 891 Old 04-23-2015, 05:00 PM
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^ I am considering the echo 18 and cap1400, so I am curious what you are basing all this on? Is it purely the motor power? How does the RA compare in this regard?

I ask because RA has a bigger cabinet and more sensitive driver so I have been under the impression they will be very close in performance, with JTR pulling ahead with slightly higher max output. Seems to me the main gain here is the rock solid reputation and reliability of the JTR name which has big value for sure, but I simply don't see how the cap is a demonstrably better performer based on what I know about both. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just trying to gather the facts to make an informed decision here is all.

I wish I could get a good photo of the standard JTR finish, that's another thing I wonder about. The standard RA finish is beautiful, and makes a huge difference for us living room system guys.

Anyone have a well lit photo?

Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 04-23-2015 at 05:22 PM.
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post #125 of 891 Old 04-23-2015, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
^ I am considering the echo 18 and cap1400, so I am curious what you are basing all this on? Is it purely the motor power? How does the RA compare in this regard?

I ask because RA has a bigger cabinet and more sensitive driver so I have been under the impression they will be very close in performance, with JTR pulling ahead with slightly higher max output.

I wish I could get a good photo of the standard JTR finish, that's another thing I wonder about. The standard RA finish is beautiful, and makes a huge difference for us living room system guys.

Anyone have a well lit photo?
Echo 18 uses 1 amp module, while JTR Cap 1400 uses 2 of the same amp module. Echo 18's cabinet is 14% larger.
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post #126 of 891 Old 04-23-2015, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Echo 18 uses 1 amp module, while JTR Cap 1400 uses 2 of the same amp module. Echo 18's cabinet is 14% larger.
Well that power equates to what, 2db difference? And that is assuming JTR and RA drivers have the same sensitivity. From what I've gathered I think the RA driver is more efficient which possibly negates all of the amp advantage...

Without measurements I haven't seen anything to make significant claims about one being better than the other, they seem pretty close, otherwise I would have jumped in for dual caps weeks ago since it's what I've always wanted.

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post #127 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 08:57 AM
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So, the amp rating is due to a 3ohm vs 4ohm difference? Seems kinds misleading/sleazy to use the "rated xxx by others" line then, imo.

Also, I don't see why everyone is so caught up in the sale prices. Those are what, good for a couple of weeks? Ya, I don't put much stock in that.
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post #128 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
So, the amp rating is due to a 3ohm vs 4ohm difference? Seems kinds misleading/sleazy to use the "rated xxx by others" line then, imo.

Also, I don't see why everyone is so caught up in the sale prices. Those are what, good for a couple of weeks? Ya, I don't put much stock in that.

I don't think that was the intent at all, I just read it as Jeff wanted to let everyone know it's the same amp. I think you're reading into things a little too much if you think it's sleazy or misleading.
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post #129 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:05 AM
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Then say it's the same amp. I think experienced consumers may get that, but the majority might not. In that way, it makes it seem like a shot at other companies. Whether it is the intent or not. Hey, I'm not the only way to say that on this forum though.
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post #130 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:23 AM
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Lol it reads like that to me as well, but everyone that knows Jeff has said otherwise. I do agree the statement could use some word smithing regardless though.

Anyway, I can't believe the Cap dropped $1000 overnight (for pre-orders anyway). The under $2k subwoofer competition has gotten fierce in a hurry!
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post #131 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:26 AM
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The CAP dropped $1000? Say what? What is the price at now?
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post #132 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:31 AM
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Well the cap2400 was $2600 and the 1400 is $1600 pre sale.... Didn't mean to get your hopes up lol.
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post #133 of 891 Old 04-24-2015, 09:35 AM
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lol, I thought something drastic happened. I was about to get in trouble with the wife. It's only money, right?
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post #134 of 891 Old 04-25-2015, 10:45 AM
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Is the first run filled? Any updates on when shipping will start or still looking at April 27?
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post #135 of 891 Old 04-26-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
I just read this post. That is an extremely powerful motor, the type of BL^2/re that you see in heavy duty pro audio woofers. That has even more force than the LMS Ultra. How much magnet do you have in that motor?
Isn't this a silly comparison due to the Ultra's design? The LMS coil gives up some of its BL at rest due to the bigger gap but maintains it through most of its stroke do to the coil being wound bigger as it reaches the ends to remain linear??

Either way still a good buy on the Cap.

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post #136 of 891 Old 04-26-2015, 05:50 PM
 
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The LMS gives up some motor force at rest, but it still has a huge amount of it. And I am not saying the JTR driver is better than the LMS, I am simply pointing out that it has a very powerful motor is all, far above average.
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post #137 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 10:06 AM
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Good news, Bad news. The good news is the Speaker Power has figured out some improvements. The bad news is this sets us back 2 weeks. We're back to shipping mid May.
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post #138 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 02:22 PM
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Thx for the update, Jeff. Can you elaborate on the improvements?

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post #139 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Well that power equates to what, 2db difference? And that is assuming JTR and RA drivers have the same sensitivity. From what I've gathered I think the RA driver is more efficient which possibly negates all of the amp advantage...

Without measurements I haven't seen anything to make significant claims about one being better than the other, they seem pretty close, otherwise I would have jumped in for dual caps weeks ago since it's what I've always wanted.
read this post.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post33764265
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post #140 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 04:09 PM
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Yeah I saw that, so basically we have no idea what double the amp power will do down low unless we know how they plan to use it. This also seems to support the notion that we need a full battery of measurments before we can declare a winner since, as Seaton put it, "Too many are getting caught up in bench racing when the driver behavior at the limits, box size and how the DSP's response shaping and limiting are used will likely make for much more significant differences in real world use."

It really would be fun to order both and do my own comparison. What would it cost, probably $300 max (if the cap ended up losing since I would pay shipping both ways)? I'll have to think about doing this, it's only money after all.

PS - am I the only one that gets distracted everytime I see "RE" in the title of this thread when it should clearly be "RA"? Lol.

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post #141 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
It really would be fun to order both and do my own comparison. What would it cost, probably $300 max (if the cap ended up losing since I would pay shipping both ways)? I'll have to think about doing this, it's only money after all.

That would be a really cool thread to read if you were to do so. I am not in the market for either one of these subs, or any more subs really, but I enjoy reading threads comparing subs or drivers. Props to you if you do it.

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post #142 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Both JTR and RA are using the identical ICEpower modular ASC/ASX amplifier rated at 700w @ 4 ohms per module. The 18" driver in the Cap-1400 is rated at 4 ohms so JTR is using two ICE modules with 700w @ 4 ohms for each half of the dual voice coil driver.

The Captivator 1400 driver (and it's impedance of dual 2.5ohm coils) has been fully optimized for new Ice Power modules for maximum performance and output.

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post #143 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 05:04 PM
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Jeff, how did the show go for you this weekend?
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post #144 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 05:22 PM
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The Axpona show went great. Lots of positive reactions to the speakers.
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post #145 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 05:26 PM
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Thx for the update, Jeff. Can you elaborate on the improvements?

Just some minor changes to the circuit board for the production units.
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post #146 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 05:56 PM
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That would be a really cool thread to read if you were to do so. I am not in the market for either one of these subs, or any more subs really, but I enjoy reading threads comparing subs or drivers. Props to you if you do it.
Yeah I just wonder how useful that would even be to anyone but me. Once the pre-sale goes away they really aren't in the same price class at all anymore.

Also unless I could lock in the pre-sale price for each I would be on the hook for the up charge when I inevitably order the second of my chosen winner.

It sure would take all doubt out of my mind though.

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post #147 of 891 Old 04-27-2015, 07:29 PM
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The Axpona show went great. Lots of positive reactions to the speakers.

I love the look of the 210RT's so it's great to read all of the positive feed back in them!
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post #148 of 891 Old 04-28-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Yeah I just wonder how useful that would even be to anyone but me. Once the pre-sale goes away they really aren't in the same price class at all anymore.

Also unless I could lock in the pre-sale price for each I would be on the hook for the up charge when I inevitably order the second of my chosen winner.

It sure would take all doubt out of my mind though.
That is why I wish everything was on Data-bass.com. It would make things a lot more easier.

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post #149 of 891 Old 04-29-2015, 11:04 AM
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There hasn't been a subwoofer shootout in a while. I would be happy to bring a Captivator 1400 out to one.
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post #150 of 891 Old 04-29-2015, 04:20 PM
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That would be cool Jeff. Just need some of the guys to throw a sub shoot out.

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