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-   -   "The PSA Output Factor" XS15se ($750) vs. S1500 ($950) (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1965377-psa-output-factor-xs15se-750-vs-s1500-950-a.html)

MIX_MASTER_ICE 04-09-2015 06:16 PM

"The PSA Output Factor" XS15se ($750) vs. S1500 ($950)
 
Right up front, what makes the S1500 $200 better? Using the PSAOF, the 16Hz to 100Hz give the S1500 a sliver of an advantage of 121.9dB to 121.6dB for the XS15se. Across the PSA chart of ranges, the S1500 has less than a 1dB advantage over the XS15se, with the exception of the 1.2db advantage in the 63hz-100Hz range. If I'm using 80Hz as my receiver XO, that 1.2dB is probably also less than a 1dB advantage.

I understand that the S1500 is a new model, using a new amp and such, but is there something other than what's on paper that makes this very slim increase worth an extra $200? Anybody owned both and able to give their view? A bit more extension?

nalthien 04-09-2015 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE (Post 33370473)
Right up front, what makes the S1500 $200 better? Using the PSAOF, the 16Hz to 100Hz give the S1500 a sliver of an advantage of 121.9dB to 121.6dB for the XS15se. Across the PSA chart of ranges, the S1500 has less than a 1dB advantage over the XS15se, with the exception of the 1.2db advantage in the 63hz-100Hz range. If I'm using 80Hz as my receiver XO, that 1.2dB is probably also less than a 1dB advantage.

I understand that the S1500 is a new model, using a new amp and such, but is there something other than what's on paper that makes this very slim increase worth an extra $200? Anybody owned both and able to give their view? A bit more extension?

Per Tom's original announcement, the S1500 will dig just slightly deeper and output just slightly more than the XS15se. The increase is modest. The price difference has a lot to do with 100% made in USA parts (the amplifiers are US made on the S1500). Is it better? Objectively yes. Is it worth $200? That's entirely up to you.

chucky7 04-09-2015 06:38 PM

Don't forget, output at 12 Hz is much more expensive than output at 80 Hz. Many non-ID commercial subs can produce good if not great output at 80 Hz, but only the really good and expensive ones can produce good output at 12 Hz.

The way I see it, S1500 has roughly 13% more output at 16-25 Hz than XS15SE. S1500 also uses the ICE Power amp, which plays cleaner. So the $200 difference is not outrageous.

Red99 04-09-2015 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE (Post 33370473)
Right up front, what makes the S1500 $200 better? Using the PSAOF, the 16Hz to 100Hz give the S1500 a sliver of an advantage of 121.9dB to 121.6dB for the XS15se. Across the PSA chart of ranges, the S1500 has less than a 1dB advantage over the XS15se, with the exception of the 1.2db advantage in the 63hz-100Hz range. If I'm using 80Hz as my receiver XO, that 1.2dB is probably also less than a 1dB advantage.

I understand that the S1500 is a new model, using a new amp and such, but is there something other than what's on paper that makes this very slim increase worth an extra $200? Anybody owned both and able to give their view? A bit more extension?

Side by side in a blind test, I bet you couldn't tell which is which. From the specs, they both have the same driver. Or very close at the least. Only difference I see is the 550w bash downward firing driver vs 725w Ice amp front firing driver. But Tom would be the man to ask if you want the specific details. For the most bang for the buck, I would go with the XS15se. If you want every ounce of dB, then the S1500. But now you are only $300 away from the XS30se.
FWIW, the XS15se is a incredible sounding sub and its price is even better. Get two of them. :)

Red99 04-09-2015 06:50 PM

[QUOTE=chucky7;33371025]Don't forget, output at 12 Hz is much more expensive than output at 80 Hz. Many non-ID commercial subs can produce good if not great output at 80 Hz, but only the really good and expensive ones can produce good output at 12 Hz.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the 12 Hz with just one of these subs, unless you are putting it in a bathroom. Just because it will measure that low, doesn't mean you will get the pressure. It takes a lot of subs or a room the size of a closet. :)

basshead81 04-09-2015 06:52 PM

The room control and time delay features are the main difference.

chucky7 04-09-2015 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red99 (Post 33371257)
Quote:

Originally Posted by chucky7 (Post 33371025)
Don't forget, output at 12 Hz is much more expensive than output at 80 Hz. Many non-ID commercial subs can produce good if not great output at 80 Hz, but only the really good and expensive ones can produce good output at 12 Hz.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the 12 Hz with just one of these subs, unless you are putting it in a bathroom. Just because it will measure that low, doesn't mean you will get the pressure. It takes a lot of subs or a room the size of a closet. :)

Just because it doesn't matter to you, or you can not feel it, doesn't mean there isn't a cost difference, which manifests to a price difference.

Red99 04-09-2015 07:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by chucky7 (Post 33371681)
Just because it doesn't matter to you, or you can not feel it, doesn't mean there isn't a cost difference, which manifests to a price difference.

They both will play down to 12 Hz. Matter of fact, you can reach the XS15se down even lower with room gain. So there.................... :D

Here is a measurement of twin XS15se's.

chucky7 04-09-2015 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red99 (Post 33372009)
They both will play down to 12 Hz. Matter of fact, you can reach the XS15se down even lower with room gain. So there.................... :D

Here is a measurement of twin XS15se's.

Nice FR :D

The OP is asking why S1500 is $200 more, so I am telling him why.

You have to pay more for 'loud and clear', especially at lower frequencies. Higher output at higher frequencies are always cheaper than higher output at lower frequencies.

S1500 plays louder and cleaner down low, so it should be more expensive.

basshead81 04-09-2015 07:49 PM

The increased cost is due to the ICE amp, has nothing to do with performance. The ICE amp is simply a much more expensive and robust amplifier all around. It costs 350.00 to upgrade from a Bash amp to a ICE amp for existing customers with Power X subs. So the 200.00 is a bargain really if you want the extra features and peace of mind the ICE amp brings to the table. The deeper extension and 1 db of output is moot at best. 99% of all enthusiasts would never realize it except you Chucky because you are like the Hyper Focused version of me when it comes to comparing and analyzing numbers lol. That is saying something!! Cheers

chucky7 04-09-2015 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basshead81 (Post 33372769)
99% of all enthusiasts would never realize it except you Chucky because you are like the Hyper Focused version of me when it comes to comparing and analyzing numbers lol. That is saying something!! Cheers

:D

What can I say? All I have are numbers since I don't have a sub, yet.

Red99 04-09-2015 08:44 PM

I am with bass head, the extra cost is for the American made amp that has an extra control on it. The performance gain is so minimal, unless you have a UMIK for a hearing aid, you arent going to tell Sub A from Sub B. Afterall, the XS15se has been reviewed by 3rd party testers to be one of the best compact < $1000 subs on the market. So its going to be a hard to beat without going over $1k. http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...bwoofers-world
I think Tom will have Ricci testing some of his new subs this summer. Then you can really tell the difference. The only thing is there is a lot of new subs from other ID's so the waiting line could be kind of long. But it does sound exciting to see how they compare by a 3rd party tester. There is nothing wrong with the Bash amps. But if I was going to pick one, I think I would go with the ICE for the extra cost. Just because its American made. And the extra 175 watts cant hurt either. :)

sk373 04-30-2015 03:58 PM

FWIW, a couple of weeks ago, I chatted w/ Tom online to finalize my decision. I asked him whether I would notice a difference between dual S1500's an dual XS15se's. He told me that they would be very similar and that the better value was with the dual XS15se's. So that's what I bought!

dsrussell 04-30-2015 05:20 PM

Congratulations! I'm sure you will be thrilled.

Tom Vodhanel 05-01-2015 09:06 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is the FR comparison between the two models.

Note that the S1500 does extend deeper and with the room size control you can dial in whatever attenuation you need to optimize the system to your room transfer function.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

jbrown15 05-01-2015 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel (Post 33915218)
Here is the FR comparison between the two models.

Note that the S1500 does extend deeper and with the room size control you can dial in whatever attenuation you need to optimize the system to your room transfer function.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

What level is the room control set at on the S1500 in that comparative graph Tom?

tinhvo 05-03-2015 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nalthien (Post 33370777)
Per Tom's original announcement, the S1500 will dig just slightly deeper and output just slightly more than the XS15se. The increase is modest. The price difference has a lot to do with 100% made in USA parts (the amplifiers are US made on the S1500). Is it better? Objectively yes. Is it worth $200? That's entirely up to you.

So are you telling me that the amp that inside the XS15se is NOT made in U.S.A or at least not 100% made in U.S.A.

nalthien 05-03-2015 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33953738)
So are you telling me that the amp that inside the XS15se is NOT made in U.S.A or at least not 100% made in U.S.A.

That's correct, the PowerX (XS, XV) series uses BASH amplifiers made in China. The ICE Power Series (S) use ICE amplifiers made by SpeakerPower in California.

Tom Vodhanel 05-03-2015 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nalthien (Post 33954794)
That's correct, the PowerX (XS, XV) series uses BASH amplifiers made in China. The ICE Power Series (S) use ICE amplifiers made by SpeakerPower in California.

Just for clarity the ICE modules are made/assembled in California with both domestic and foreign content. The ultimate goal is the minimize the latter as time goes on of course. But one step at a time...just having quality subwoofer amplifier assembled in the USA again was a HUGE hurdle for us. Remember, we ain't purchasing 10,000 amps a month like sony..:) We had to put a 1/4 million dollar commitment in place to make this first step a reality. Support for these new products has been stronger than we ever imagined though...so no complaints at all.


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

tinhvo 05-03-2015 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nalthien (Post 33954794)
That's correct, the PowerX (XS, XV) series uses BASH amplifiers made in China. The ICE Power Series (S) use ICE amplifiers made by SpeakerPower in California.

Huge thank, nalthien.
If I wasn't stumble on this thread and asked, I would pull the trigger for the XS15se and thinking it's 100% designed, engineered and assembled in the U.S.
Anyway, if my budget allowed, I would get the S1500.

sk373 05-03-2015 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33962986)
Huge thank, nalthien.
If I wasn't stumble on this thread and asked, I would pull the trigger for the XS15se and thinking it's 100% designed, engineered and assembled in the U.S.
Anyway, if my budget allowed, I would get the S1500.

The XS15se is 100% designed, engineered, and assembled in the US. The fact that the amp is manufactured in China does not change this fact. It is nigh-impossible to source every part from the US. Even the ICE amps are manufactured from both domestic and foreign parts.

The important thing is that all actual design and engineering are done by Tom Vodhanel and Jim Farina, and the subs are assembled in their facility in Mineral Ridge, OH.

tinhvo 05-03-2015 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk373 (Post 33963618)
The XS15se is 100% designed, engineered, and assembled in the US. The fact that the amp is manufactured in China does not change this fact. It is nigh-impossible to source every part from the US. Even the ICE amps are manufactured from both domestic and foreign parts.

The important thing is that all actual design and engineering are done by Tom Vodhanel and Jim Farina, and the subs are assembled in their facility in Mineral Ridge, OH.

I agreed but personally, I think the amp is the major part of the subwoofer. If I design and build my own bike but using the engine block from China, the wheels from Cuba, .... I wouldn't consider it as U.S.A made product. It's just my personal take, nothing against any mfg. or especially PSA in this thread.

Anyway, further question, the BASH amp. is made in China, so I assume it is designed/engineered in ??? and assembled in China? or it is completely a Chinese product?

sk373 05-03-2015 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33964602)
I agreed but personally, I think the amp is the major part of the subwoofer. If I design and build my own bike but using the engine block from China, the wheels from Cuba, .... I wouldn't consider it as U.S.A made product. It's just my personal take, nothing against any mfg. or especially PSA in this thread.

Anyway, further question, the BASH amp. is made in China, so I assume it is designed/engineered in ??? and assembled in China? or it is completely a Chinese product?

The amp is no more or less important than the driver or enclosure. They are all designed to work together.

The BASH amp is manufactured in China. It is my understanding that the technology originated with a Canadian company called Indigo. Indigo was subsequently bought out by a Chinese company. Hence, the original technology was designed by Canadians, but the current design and implementation of BASH is Chinese.

It doesn't stop there though. PSA implements a custom DSP of their own in the BASH amps they utilize.

Here is a car analogy for you: if I buy a car built in the US with Bridgestone tires made in Japan, it's still a US built car.

jbrown15 05-03-2015 10:16 PM

&quot;The PSA Output Factor&quot; XS15se ($750) vs. S1500 ($950)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sk373 (Post 33965618)
The amp is no more or less important than the driver or enclosure. They are all designed to work together.

The BASH amp is manufactured in China. It is my understanding that the technology originated with a Canadian company called Indigo. Indigo was subsequently bought out by a Chinese company. Hence, the original technology was designed by Canadians, but the current design and implementation of BASH is Chinese.

It doesn't stop there though. PSA implements a custom DSP of their own in the BASH amps they utilize.

Here is a car analogy for you: if I buy a car built in the US with Bridgestone tires made in Japan, it's still a US built car.


Not a bad analogy but I would say that it would be more like a US made car with a China made engine.....lol
But as far as I'm concerned if the amp passes PSA QC and has a 5yr warranty who cares where it's made. American made products can fail just as much as foreign made products. Hell 15 years ago I wouldn't touch a American made car with a 10ft pole! But the stuff being built today is really good.

basshead81 05-03-2015 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrown15 (Post 33930466)
What level is the room control set at on the S1500 in that comparative graph Tom?

Large more then likely.

Tom Vodhanel 05-04-2015 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33962986)
Huge thank, nalthien.
If I wasn't stumble on this thread and asked, I would pull the trigger for the XS15se and thinking it's 100% designed, engineered and assembled in the U.S.
Anyway, if my budget allowed, I would get the S1500.

The XS15se is designed, engineered and assembled in Ohio.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Tom Vodhanel 05-04-2015 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33964602)
I agreed but personally, I think the amp is the major part of the subwoofer. If I design and build my own bike but using the engine block from China, the wheels from Cuba, .... I wouldn't consider it as U.S.A made product. It's just my personal take, nothing against any mfg. or especially PSA in this thread.

Anyway, further question, the BASH amp. is made in China, so I assume it is designed/engineered in ??? and assembled in China? or it is completely a Chinese product?

"BASH" is just a small chip in the amplifier. You can design "bash" amplifiers that are very poor quality and cost ten bucks each. Conversely, you can design high quality "bash" amplifiers that use advanced DSP preamps, and state of the art energy conservation. Think of "bash" like you would think of a AMD chipset in your computer. You'll find low and high quality PCs using this chip set. It is all in how much someone is willing to spend.

Our BASH amps have been customized for our application. I don't know of another USA based operation that uses this quality of (DSP, Green, Etc) BASH amps...maybe TRIAD.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

tinhvo 05-04-2015 07:17 PM

Oh, crap.
Talking about loyalty and patriotism, I haven't actually owned any American made car :(
I'm a Japanese/German-car man. :(
I should try a Lincoln MKC next.

jbrown15 05-04-2015 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinhvo (Post 33987738)
Oh, crap.
Talking about loyalty and patriotism, I haven't actually owned any American made car :(
I'm a Japanese/German-car man. :(
I should try a Lincoln MKC next.

I've had way less issues with German and Japanese cars that I've owned compared to the few American made cars that I've owned....lol


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