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post #31 of 46 Old 04-22-2015, 11:24 PM
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You can see the audio content your AVR is removing by dropping the files into Audacity, splitting it into dual mono, inverting one channel, and applying a 120hz LPF and converting it into mono.

I have done that with this song, which has lots of stereophonic bass in it.

You can see and hear all the stuff that your AVR's LFE processor is throwing away.

and throwing stuff away is lossy, and thus not Hi-Fi, by definition.

How much it bugs you is a matter of personal preference.

Once you get used to hearing it, once it's removed you'll pull your hair out. You'll never wanna go back (consider yourself forewarned, it's a slippery slope.)



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post #32 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 01:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Once you get used to hearing it, once it's removed you'll pull your hair out. You'll never wanna go back (consider yourself forewarned, it's a slippery slope.)
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post #33 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Denon can call them whatever they want, I was just clarifying (for folks reading this thread) the difference between the .1/LFE channel in source material and subwoofer outputs on the back of receivers.
But you keep talking about .1. Im talking about .2.
Denon is probably calling it 2 channels channel because if you think about it, it would need to be 2 separate channels for Audessy MultEQ XT to set room delay and level for each sub separately. And I think that is where the confusion is coming from. You are thinking of sound tract channels. But its 2 channels so each sub can have its on calibration. Which the AVR could not have separate delay and levels for each sub if it was just a simple y connector inside the AVR. Whether there is any Stereo is a mystery. And for LFE, I would guess "probably not", and assume the sound tract is a mono channel that has been divided into 2 separate channels for tuning purposes only.

From Denons web site: http://usa.denon.com/us/resources/pa...-receiver.aspx

The ".2" indicates the 7.2 receiver's support for two specialized channels that handle only very low frequencies – otherwise known as Low Frequency Effects or LFE – which are output to specialized speakers called subwoofers. For a large room (or for users who love deep bass effects from their movies or games), the two LFE channels a 7.2 receiver provides are more potent than the one LFE channel that you get with a 7.1 channel receiver or 5.1 receiver.


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post #34 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 06:18 AM
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OP, you will likely be just as happy with a single subwoofer.
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post #35 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
But you keep talking about .1. Im talking about .2.
Denon is probably calling it 2 channels channel because if you think about it, it would need to be 2 separate channels for Audessy MultEQ XT to set room delay and level for each sub separately. And I think that is where the confusion is coming from. You are thinking of sound tract channels. But its 2 channels so each sub can have its on calibration. Which the AVR could not have separate delay and levels for each sub if it was just a simple y connector inside the AVR. Whether there is any Stereo is a mystery. And for LFE, I would guess "probably not", and assume the sound tract is a mono channel that has been divided into 2 separate channels for tuning purposes only.

From Denons web site: http://usa.denon.com/us/resources/pa...-receiver.aspx

The ".2" indicates the 7.2 receiver's support for two specialized channels that handle only very low frequencies – otherwise known as Low Frequency Effects or LFE – which are output to specialized speakers called subwoofers. For a large room (or for users who love deep bass effects from their movies or games), the two LFE channels a 7.2 receiver provides are more potent than the one LFE channel that you get with a 7.1 channel receiver or 5.1 receiver.
There's some confusion here. Bass and LFE are not necessarily the same thing (i.e., all Scotch is whisky, but not all whiskey is Scotch.) Whether the use of an internal Y or independent calibration (e.g., distance, level, filter), the subs are receiving the same discreet mono LFE (.1) channel. Content redirected below the crossover will also be fed to all subs connected equally, regardless of where the subs are placed or whether EQ has been applied. I am not aware of any .2 source material.

The Denon copy that you pasted is marketing to those that are not familiar with HT. For instance, I learned that Low Frequency Effects are called LFE and specialized speakers for reproducing this are called subwoofers. The ".2" is in quotation marks, so imagine making the air-quotes when you say it.

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post #36 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
But you keep talking about .1. Im talking about .2.
No, I'm pointing out that .1 and .2 refer to the number of subwoofers, NOT the number of LFE channels. No source material has more than one LFE channel, irrespective of how Denon uses that term. You can send that same LFE signal to 4 subwoofers, but that doesn't mean you suddenly have 4 LFE channels. Playing back the centre channel from 2 speakers doesn't mean you have 2 centre channels. You understand the difference between channels and speakers, right?

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post #37 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
No, I'm pointing out that .1 and .2 refer to the number of subwoofers, NOT the number of LFE channels. No source material has more than one LFE channel, irrespective of how Denon uses that term. You can send that same LFE signal to 4 subwoofers, but that doesn't mean you suddenly have 4 LFE channels. Playing back the centre channel from 2 speakers doesn't mean you have 2 centre channels. You understand the difference between channels and speakers, right?
I never said is was discrete channels. If I remember correctly, even when 5.1 first came out, the source for the rear was pretty much mono and not discrete, but yet it was counted as 2 channels. I get at what you are saying. I posted the first response that there isn't stereo bass. (As far as 2 sub woofers goes). Unless you have some ancient system and playing the subs off a full range channels.



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post #38 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
If I remember correctly, even when 5.1 first came out, the source for the rear was pretty much mono and not discrete, but yet it was counted as 2 channels.
5.1 has two discrete surround channels. Maybe you're thinking of old 2-channel Dolby Surround encoded soundtracks that were decoded using Dolby Pro Logic. Those soundtracks had a "mono and not discrete" surround channel that was sent to 2 - 4 surround speakers.

Anyway, my point was simply that the Denon website is using terms incorrectly: the text should have said that their receiver has 2 subwoofer outputs, not 2 LFE channels.

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post #39 of 46 Old 04-23-2015, 05:28 PM
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Yeah it was Dolby Pro Logic.
You have a good point. Marantz and Denon has merged together and yet my my Marantz AV 7702 lists it as dual sub woofer outputs. Not Dual channels.


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post #40 of 46 Old 04-24-2015, 04:59 PM
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I think the OP is talking about 2-ch music, hence the thread title. Not movies.

He probably has a dual-purpose movies/music system; and wants LFE during 7.1 movies, and stereo bass during 2-ch music.

or if he's like me, he wants tri-channel bass during movies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I posted the first response that there isn't stereo bass. (As far as 2 sub woofers goes). Unless you have some ancient system and playing the subs off a full range channels.
ancient or new-and-expensive, I believe there are several products capable of stereo subwoofers these days:
Trinnov, Datasat, and probably Classe/McIntosh and possibly now Emotiva with their XMC-1(?)
Now whether or not they do it properly, or even well, is another question altogether...


In any case, here is how I do tri-channel subwoofers (i.e. stereo subwoofers and LFE)
Mine is dynamically routable, I can change it on-the-fly to any combintorial of mono LFE, left, right, summed or tri-channel discrete.

The Oppo 105 acts as my 7.1 bluray DAC and also 2-ch music DAC. (There is no AVR or SP in my system, it's all external boxes and mostly Class-A analog. Or it could be 100% analog, if I wanted it in that mode; as-is there is a digital XO/EQ ADA in line for the LCR and subs.)
The output stage of the amplifiers are mostly Class-A/B with a few exceptions (in case you are unfamiliar / wondering.)


I have WAY more than 3 subs, and my room/speaker placement is very symmetrical too.
My Left, Center, Right are each flat to 4hz. So it is technically impossible for me to disable stereo bass (actually I could disable those cones or frequencies, but I'm trying to prove a point here. )

Boys will be Boys and Bassheads will be Bassheads.


All you need is 2 or 3 subs if you have small mains; you don't need to go full-mental like I have here with a zillion cones, wires, amps and external processors, and with a 4hz capable center channel too.

Now keep in mind my system is still a work-in-progress. I'm adding more channels of amplification and wattage.
Trying to go from the 9 amps and 19 channels and 43kW that I have now, to 8 amps and 24 channels and 80kW. The overall layout will remain the same. (But that's only a slightly-related bass-system topic.)

It has been 4 years since I have forced my system to output just mono-bass but I might be able to make a video demonstrating the audible differences.
Unfortunately my camera only has 1 mic so you still won't hear it the way I hear it with my 2 ears, but it might give you an slight idea of what stereophonic bass your AVR is discarding.
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post #41 of 46 Old 04-24-2015, 08:35 PM
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Some food for thought:

Lets say you had a live presentation of a standing bass in the left side of the stage and you had some notes that were hitting down to 50hz.

You would likely be able to hear the directionality of that bass note to a degree but you also would have the psychoacoustic effect of actually seeing the bass player and knowing where the sound is "supposed" to come from. Even then, however, you still have room modes to contend with and the listener could still be sitting in a null. This is assuming that the concert room is similar in size to your listening room (vs outdoors).

If you were to concede that listening to the room modes would be a normal part of that small room concert experience then yes you could produce a "stereophonic", at home, bass experience while not accounting for room mode issues.

On the other hand, if you don't want problems with "one note bass" and other such issues caused by your room, quad subs is the way to go while sacrificing any true low bass directionality.

I have owned numerous full range speakers with wildly different in room bass responese based on different room shapes. NONE of those experiences could be said to be the "true to life, real" version of the original recording.

My quad corner sub setup is VASY superior in overall experience for music than any "stereo bass" nonsense setup being discussed here.

My point is, even if bass were localizable, it is only consistently localizable in a larger venue with live point source instruments such as drum sets. Furthermore the visual location of the drummer would provide any additional psychoacoustic cues.

In music reproduction for small rooms, this is a relative fools errand and won't yield any obvious useful experience.

Listen "stereo guys"... NOTHING that you do will reproduce a live experience... NOTHING.

Perhaps a 32 full range point source (each with full frequency range) array with object oriented instrument channels? Something like 64 channel Atmos for music comes to mind.

In the meantime, the 120hz+ sounds from my left and right channels provide enough psychoacoustic clues to where bass is coming from... The funny thing is that 90% of tracks when analyzed appear to have the bass coming exactly from the middle...
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post #42 of 46 Old 04-24-2015, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
No, but for the last 40 odd years all of the information in the bass range, 100Hz and lower, has been summed to mono in the mixing process. It's been that long since recording engineers and producers recognized that there was no point to stereo bass, so they stopped doing it.



Maybe for music, but for movies a lot of times stereo bass has been mixed into movies (since about 1990).


I have my system setup for stereo bass reproduction for frequencies above 50 Hz, and mono bass for frequencies below 50Hz. You really can not hear "stereo bass" below 50 Hz anyways, so crossing at 50 is no big deal.
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post #43 of 46 Old 04-26-2015, 09:56 AM
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Stereo Bass For Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
Except LFE is a mono channel (the .1 on a 5.1 or 7.1 disc). So if bass management could send whatever is below the crossover in left and right channels to different subs, you'd still miss out on all of the LFE channel, unless the receiver first mixed the mono LFE channel at -6 dB into each of the left and right channels, then applied the crossover . . . . Nothing can really turn a mono channel into a stereo channel. You can just play back the mono channel through the available speakers. Like the Beatles mono reissues would play, on my system, on left right and center, because that's how I'm configured (but not only LFE). Each channel would have the same content, because you cannot create additional channels based on the phase differences between one channel. It's that whole "between one" that kinda kills it, conceptually.
Took me a couple of reads to get your meaning. Yes, if the AVR isn't mixing the .1 LFE into the "Large" mains if Subwoofer is set to NO (I think it is), then you're missing it. But...

I believe it is, though. The setup in my mind is a 5.0 or 7.0 setup with front mains set to Large, rear surrounds to Small. The AVR should be mixing the mono .1 LFE channel into Front L and Front R. If both Fronts are routed through dual subs, then yes, the bass that is NOT .1 will be presented in stereo, the .1 LFE channel ought to be split between the front mains.

If a subwoofer is configured (5.1, 7.1) and plugged into the subwoofer pre-out, then to get stereo bass from mains, there would need to be 2 additional subs for the fronts to be wired into, and the AVR set to "Extra bass" (a Yamaha feature, sends LFE to mains as well as sub). Overkill? You betcha.

This thread has been confusing "bass" with "LFE" or ".1 LFE channel". OP said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckless95 View Post
So I initially I was getting ready to buy a SVS SB13U. Then I started reading articles etc. Is it worth it to run 2 subs for music purposes? These articles left me hanging if I should go with 2 cheaper subs...

Bass in my definition is everything below 200Hz from L and R channels (2.0 content). AVRs may let you send anything below 200Hz to a single subwoofer channel (mono in most cases). In that case, the bass < 200Hz is no longer in stereo, it's in mono, even if you have two subs connected to the .1 LFE pre-outs.

I'm guessing that most AVRs have a virtual Y connector inside so two subs will still get the mono output that the AVR crossover is diverting from L and R. BUT

If you have full range L and R output from the AVR routed THROUGH dual subs with crossovers set to highest crossover (say for argument 200Hz), the bass from those channels will be played by the subs. If you tell the AVR there is no subwoofer present, I would hope it plays the .1 LFE channel in 5.1 and 6.1 content through the front mains (set to Large, which my AVR locks in if no sub is present).

I may not've been clear earlier: I hope I've corrected that.

SO ... to answer you, OP, depending upon your AVR, a single sub will suffice. If you have smaller front speakers, set the AVR crossover to 100Hz or less, and the whole "stereo bass" issue is moot. IF you have itty bitty teeny tiny bookshelf speakers for front L and front R, then yeah, you may want to look at dual identical subs with high level (speaker wire) inputs and variable crossover settings that to up to oh say 150Hz or 200Hz (e.g. look at Hsu's MBM-12 mid-bass module).


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post #44 of 46 Old 04-26-2015, 06:06 PM
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500 hz just is not bass. Normal tuming forks are 440 hxzand sound wuite high. If you have ever touched a guitar, 500 hz is almost half an octave higher thsn the highest open string. Say fifth or sixth fret. hendrix's opening riff to purple haze yops out well below 500 hz.

A person could use any search engine yo find dites that will let you hear notes at dpecific frequencies.

You cannot, imo, define bass by how sound is reproduced in a room. The transition, aiui, is 250ish hz in a semitypical room, but so what. There is no such frequency outside. Does that mean there is no such thing as bass outdoors? Of course not. And, from a musical perspective, bass cannot have d different definition in every room. I have no problem with the idea that the upoer end of a tenor male singer, or the middle of an alto woman's voice contains frequencies that reproduce in small rooms like a 40 hz frequency does. But that 500 hz note is not bass in any musical sense.

You can talk about localizing a drum or an upright bass or a bass guitar played in a real room, but it is just not relevant. What you localize with live instruments are the harmonic components that are way above any normal sub crossover. An open e on acoustic bass has as much 80 hz a s 40 hz content, and plenty of content above 80 hz. Directionality comes from the 80 to, say, 2000ish hz components. When you crossover to a sub at, say 60 hz, all those higher harmonics from still go to the mains, not the sub And the instrument stays where it belongs in the mix.
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post #45 of 46 Old 04-27-2015, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
500 hz just is not bass. Normal tuming forks are 440 hxzand sound wuite high. If you have ever touched a guitar, 500 hz is almost half an octave higher thsn the highest open string. Say fifth or sixth fret. hendrix's opening riff to purple haze yops out well below 500 hz.
.
Typo. Sorry you wasted your time on it.

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post #46 of 46 Old 04-27-2015, 06:02 PM
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With movies I can honestly say that I'm usually so distracted with what is going on on screen that I've never heard stereo bass in a movie.
Perhaps if I turned off the LFE and listening to a specific scene where something big was panning from Left through Center to Right, and specifically was looking for it... only then might I notice.

I find that with music it is more obvious because:
-there are no visuals to distract you
-you don't already have a mono LFE channel thumping away hottly to mask it.

Star Wars pod scene might have something, not sure...

Frequencies below 40hz have no directionality (but their harmonics might), and there is always differences in timing as well.

Here are three such scenarios where the playback would not be as intended.

1) The bass would be amplified too much on the LFE if mains-bass redirection was applied ( but the mains would be fine).


2) The bass would be cancelled in both the LFE and some-what the mains.


3) If the right channel had highly directional bass, it would come out the LFE channel (at that location).


Addtionally the bass doesn't sum acoustically the same as it does digitally.
I have posted a UMIK comparison of this already, I'll try and find it. But basically the summed mono bass causes more acoustical harmonics than what exists in a stereophonic-bass system. (To my surprise.)
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