Official Deep Sea Sound Thread - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1985 Old 08-30-2017, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nx211 View Post
@COACH2369

So you can notice the difference between the 24s and 18s even tho they have the same power/thermal rating of 4k? In movies only or even with music?


I've heard both the 24" and dual 18", and both are tremendous, but the 24" is a very noticeable upgrade from the 18": it seems to fill the room effortlessly and however the two compare with test equipment, the perception to me is the 24" goes deeper.


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post #1712 of 1985 Old 08-30-2017, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I've heard both the 24" and dual 18", and both are tremendous, but the 24" is a very noticeable upgrade from the 18": it seems to fill the room effortlessly and however the two compare with test equipment, the perception to me is the 24" goes deeper.


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Hey! PSA traitors are not allowed in here

Just teasing brother, I have a ton of PSA love - just mad you didn't post that DSS instead of trading it in

How you liking ported vs sealed? Did it help your room?
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post #1713 of 1985 Old 08-30-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Hey! PSA traitors are not allowed in here



Just teasing brother, I have a ton of PSA love - just mad you didn't post that DSS instead of trading it in



How you liking ported vs sealed? Did it help your room?


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post #1714 of 1985 Old 08-30-2017, 05:23 PM
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^^ wait, you are going from a DSS24" to a pair of DSS18" to a pair of ported psa subs?
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post #1715 of 1985 Old 09-24-2017, 10:46 AM
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I had the pleasure of visiting with COACH2369 to demo his system and to meet David Gage. Two 24 inch subs and 3 18 inches in one room is quite an experience. Rock solid bass that must be felt to be believed. I would not be surprised if the seismic disturbance was measures at the nearby university. COACH2369 and David shared their passion and the story of their journey to get to where they are now.

David then came to my home to see my system and to make recommendations. He is both quite knowledgeable and also a man of integrity. David makes recommendations that are best for his customer and not just for his bottom line.

For anyone considering a move to the big boys league, IMO, Deep Sea Sound should be at the top of your list.
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post #1716 of 1985 Old 09-26-2017, 04:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I've had one or two people ask about an 18" side table and I have it on my list to build a rounded version with feet. I hope to get to that list item sooner than later, probably before Jim's desired rounded Mariana 24. (Sorry Jim)

Regarding dual-opposed, I've also been asked about those a time or few but am personally not a fan of the design. The greatest advantage to the design is the pair of subs opposed each other and therefore cancel out each others vibrations. However, that one advantage, doesn't overcome the negatives as I see them. The biggest negative is size (and weight) and a lack of flexibility in placement. Barring @beastaudio 's previous (new speakers don't allow it) set up of quad dual-opposed subs up front at 45-degrees to side and front walls, the best placement is longways along a wall. But I've seen more people actually facing one woofer into the room and the other directly into a wall and this can cause many issues. Throw in the fact that our subs are very well built, they simply don't have any vibration issues, and there isn't a reason for us to offer a dual-opposed design.
Im a bit new to the sealed game and was drooling through the DSS thread and came across this post. I just got a pair of S3601's, and I am one of the people you mention having one sub firing into the room and the other into the wall. What do you see as "many issues" with this layout? Having read that , I now want to try the longways layout and see if I notice any difference. Anyhow thanks for any input!
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post #1717 of 1985 Old 09-26-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
Im a bit new to the sealed game and was drooling through the DSS thread and came across this post. I just got a pair of S3601's, and I am one of the people you mention having one sub firing into the room and the other into the wall. What do you see as "many issues" with this layout? Having read that , I now want to try the longways layout and see if I notice any difference. Anyhow thanks for any input!
One thing to realize with speakers and subs is how much the room plays into the quality of the sound. Here are two scenarios:

1. Top of the line, high quality speaker in a poorly treated room.
2. Decent speaker but in a well treated room.

I would likely pick #2 every time and I've heard several high end speakers in optimized rooms and then the same speaker in rooms without treatments and there is a huge difference. I've also heard my personal speakers in quite a few rooms now as I've taken them to a couple GTGs and it is interesting to notice the sometimes not so subtle differences in their sound in different rooms and setups.

A room also affects subwoofers in the same way. As an aside, if you take a pillow and put it over the front of a tweeter, it will greatly muffle or even block the sound. Put that same pillow in front of a subwoofer and it affects the sound waves very little. The bass has longer wavelengths and travels through materials much better than shorter wavelengths. Well you can get that same affect with a wall and a subwoofer where some parts of the bass wave will go through the drywall while the upper midbass may bounce off of the drywall and back into the room. Now you have a direct radiating front with a rear wave that isn't complete (midbass bounced but low bass didn't) and they will reach the ear at different times. And since most dual-opposed are using a single signal or amp channel, you can't exactly delay the front sub driver to couple correctly with the waves off the wall. This could result in phase issues and may result in some frequencies being boosted and others being canceled out. As another aside, noise canceling headphones work by using a microphone to listen to outside noise and then creating a 180-degree out of phase signal in the headphones so that when the two opposite waves combine in your ear, most of the outside noise is canceled out. So you really want to have phase coherency with all of your speakers and subwoofers to get the best sound. This is also why your receiver asks for speaker/sub distances as it is trying to roughly ensure the sound waves reach your ear at the same time as opposed to being out of phase and canceling/boosting. And realize this phase issue varies over the frequency range so it isn't necessarily an all or nothing. Another, another aside; with your subwoofers playing, walk around the room from the center to the corners and notice how the bass will sometimes disappear and other times be boosted and boomy (corners especially). This is the bass(sound) waves interacting with the room (room modes) and combining and canceling as they bounce off of different objects such as the side and rear walls as well as the floor and ceiling. This is why a treated room can sound so much better than a non-treated room as you can control some of those sound waves bouncing around. And final random brain dump, multiple subs is preferred for most even bass as it ensures more balanced excitation of the rooms modes (https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf) with 4 subs being nearly optimal while providing the most value (more than 4 subs adds marginal improvement).

Sorry for the various random thoughts but they kept coming and I didn't want to make this post any longer. You have some nice subwoofers there, you just need to work on positioning them optimally. Like I said, BeastAudio had a nice setup with his 4 dual-opposed boxes such that he put them in the front upper and lower corners at a 45-degree angle so one set of woofers bounced off of the front wall and the other set bounced off of the sides walls. Or you could try putting one in the front and the other in back, both facing to the side walls. Or on the sides facing forward/back. But firing one woofer into a hard surface would definitely not be ideal or recommended. And if you put one sub in the rear (closer to the main listening position) and one sub up front (further) you will need to use a receiver with dual sub outputs and something like Audyssey (or other DSP) to ensure the closer sub is delayed properly so that the bass waves from front and back reach your ear at the same time. (You could also use delay on sub amp controls). Hope this helps.

David Gage
Deep Sea Sound
"You don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them!"
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post #1718 of 1985 Old 09-27-2017, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
One thing to realize with speakers and subs is how much the room plays into the quality of the sound. Here are two scenarios:

1. Top of the line, high quality speaker in a poorly treated room.
2. Decent speaker but in a well treated room.

I would likely pick #2 every time and I've heard several high end speakers in optimized rooms and then the same speaker in rooms without treatments and there is a huge difference. I've also heard my personal speakers in quite a few rooms now as I've taken them to a couple GTGs and it is interesting to notice the sometimes not so subtle differences in their sound in different rooms and setups.

A room also affects subwoofers in the same way. As an aside, if you take a pillow and put it over the front of a tweeter, it will greatly muffle or even block the sound. Put that same pillow in front of a subwoofer and it affects the sound waves very little. The bass has longer wavelengths and travels through materials much better than shorter wavelengths. Well you can get that same affect with a wall and a subwoofer where some parts of the bass wave will go through the drywall while the upper midbass may bounce off of the drywall and back into the room. Now you have a direct radiating front with a rear wave that isn't complete (midbass bounced but low bass didn't) and they will reach the ear at different times. And since most dual-opposed are using a single signal or amp channel, you can't exactly delay the front sub driver to couple correctly with the waves off the wall. This could result in phase issues and may result in some frequencies being boosted and others being canceled out. As another aside, noise canceling headphones work by using a microphone to listen to outside noise and then creating a 180-degree out of phase signal in the headphones so that when the two opposite waves combine in your ear, most of the outside noise is canceled out. So you really want to have phase coherency with all of your speakers and subwoofers to get the best sound. This is also why your receiver asks for speaker/sub distances as it is trying to roughly ensure the sound waves reach your ear at the same time as opposed to being out of phase and canceling/boosting. And realize this phase issue varies over the frequency range so it isn't necessarily an all or nothing. Another, another aside; with your subwoofers playing, walk around the room from the center to the corners and notice how the bass will sometimes disappear and other times be boosted and boomy (corners especially). This is the bass(sound) waves interacting with the room (room modes) and combining and canceling as they bounce off of different objects such as the side and rear walls as well as the floor and ceiling. This is why a treated room can sound so much better than a non-treated room as you can control some of those sound waves bouncing around. And final random brain dump, multiple subs is preferred for most even bass as it ensures more balanced excitation of the rooms modes (https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf) with 4 subs being nearly optimal while providing the most value (more than 4 subs adds marginal improvement).

Sorry for the various random thoughts but they kept coming and I didn't want to make this post any longer. You have some nice subwoofers there, you just need to work on positioning them optimally. Like I said, BeastAudio had a nice setup with his 4 dual-opposed boxes such that he put them in the front upper and lower corners at a 45-degree angle so one set of woofers bounced off of the front wall and the other set bounced off of the sides walls. Or you could try putting one in the front and the other in back, both facing to the side walls. Or on the sides facing forward/back. But firing one woofer into a hard surface would definitely not be ideal or recommended. And if you put one sub in the rear (closer to the main listening position) and one sub up front (further) you will need to use a receiver with dual sub outputs and something like Audyssey (or other DSP) to ensure the closer sub is delayed properly so that the bass waves from front and back reach your ear at the same time. (You could also use delay on sub amp controls). Hope this helps.
Perfect , thanks for the tips. I have kind of thought the same thing about the one woofer shooting into the wall! I will play around with locations as best I can , limited by the WAF on subs these size and my own issues with hating to see cables running around everywhere! I dont have any complaints on sound at the moment , but I have simple ears , im sure someone more experienced would notice problems right away! But as someone new to the sealed side , I am impressed by the sound and fullness and could only imagine the 4000w 24" beasts you create! Maybe one day , thanks again for the input!
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post #1719 of 1985 Old 09-29-2017, 09:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
Perfect , thanks for the tips. I have kind of thought the same thing about the one woofer shooting into the wall! I will play around with locations as best I can , limited by the WAF on subs these size and my own issues with hating to see cables running around everywhere! I dont have any complaints on sound at the moment , but I have simple ears , im sure someone more experienced would notice problems right away! But as someone new to the sealed side , I am impressed by the sound and fullness and could only imagine the 4000w 24" beasts you create! Maybe one day , thanks again for the input!
Your username made me lmfao.
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post #1720 of 1985 Old 09-29-2017, 09:34 AM
 
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Your username made me lmfao.
I get that quite a bit lol ....
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post #1721 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently made a speaker upgrade, although to some the picture might beg to differ to some...

Here is a before and after picture of my front wall. Since the picture was taken, the speakers have been surrounded nicely by insulation.

I also now have three Mariana 18's in the rear of the room. Pictures of those to come soon.

Calibration was last night and the room is sounding FANTASTIC! These subs are a HUGE hit, no pun intended...
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post #1722 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 05:29 PM
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Are those pics in the right order? Are those shrunken M2’s?
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post #1723 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Recently made a speaker upgrade, although to some the picture might beg to differ to some...

Here is a before and after picture of my front wall. Since the picture was taken, the speakers have been surrounded nicely by insulation.

I also now have three Mariana 18's in the rear of the room. Pictures of those to come soon.

Calibration was last night and the room is sounding FANTASTIC! These subs are a HUGE hit, no pun intended...
That should be called, "The Wall of Insanity"! Awesome!!

Evolution of My Theater Build

Speakers: Procella P8 (LCR), P6V (2 Front Side), P5 (2 Rear Side, 2 Rear, 4 Ceiling). Subs: Deep Sea Sound Custom 18" Mariana (4). Amps: Crown DCi 8|300 (2), SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT. Processors: Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP-8080 (2). Video: JVC RS400, 2.37 Seymour AV 120" Enlightor 4K Screen, Kaleidescape Strato, Philips BDP7501. Control: iRule.
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post #1724 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 09:41 PM
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Your new speakers look so cute! Can’t wait to hear them, especially since Chad just calibrated everything.

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"You don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them!"
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post #1725 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 10:30 PM
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It’s hard to believe these ‘cute’ speakers are upgrades over those 4722’s with the upgraded CDs. What are they?
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post #1726 of 1985 Old 10-17-2017, 11:16 PM
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It looks like a “baby” M2, the JBL 708i possibly?
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post #1727 of 1985 Old 10-18-2017, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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It’s hard to believe these ‘cute’ speakers are upgrades over those 4722’s with the upgraded CDs. What are they?
Believe me, I was a tad skeptical too....until I was able to get a demo of them in my room. Then I realized they would be an upgrade for me.

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It looks like a “baby” M2, the JBL 708i possibly?
Those are the 708p's. Only difference is they have built in amps vs a separate crown amp powering them.
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post #1728 of 1985 Old 10-18-2017, 05:09 AM
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Nothing warms my heart more than coming to this thread and seeing Coach's speakers being harassed. He had manly speakers and decided he would rather have speakers that look like they came off an iPhone
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post #1729 of 1985 Old 10-18-2017, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Nothing warms my heart more than coming to this thread and seeing Coach's speakers being harassed. He had manly speakers and decided he would rather have speakers that look like they came off an iPhone
Bigger isn't always better..... at least my wife tells me that regularly.
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post #1730 of 1985 Old 10-20-2017, 05:11 AM
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Wow @COACH2369 ...who would have thought going smaller mains would be an improvement....but again once the screen is up it wouldn't matter as long as you do hear an improvement. Can't wait to see your rear marianas....that brings it up to 5 subs total right? And I need to save up money and get mine after speaking with David about it!

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post #1731 of 1985 Old 10-20-2017, 05:32 AM
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It may be time for a trip to Knoxville (uninvited) !! Five 21 inch subs; new screen; new PJ calibration; new (very cute) speakers.

Sounds like you may have been infected by a serious and non curable disease called "upgrade-itis". Not only do those afflicted do some serious upgrades/changes, the first response in defense of those upgrades is always something on the order of "I won't be doing any more upgrades for a REALLY, REALLY long time" .... which translated usually turns out to be about 6 months to a year.

How do I know all of this? Welcome to my world!!

And congratulations !!!!!
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post #1732 of 1985 Old 10-20-2017, 07:56 AM
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It may be time for a trip to Knoxville (uninvited) !! Five 21 inch subs;!
Actually, zero 21" subs.... but he does have two 24" subs and three 18" subs...

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post #1733 of 1985 Old 10-20-2017, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
It may be time for a trip to Knoxville (uninvited) !! Five 21 inch subs; new screen; new PJ calibration; new (very cute) speakers.

Sounds like you may have been infected by a serious and non curable disease called "upgrade-itis". Not only do those afflicted do some serious upgrades/changes, the first response in defense of those upgrades is always something on the order of "I won't be doing any more upgrades for a REALLY, REALLY long time" .... which translated usually turns out to be about 6 months to a year.

How do I know all of this? Welcome to my world!!

And congratulations !!!!!
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Actually, zero 21" subs.... but he does have two 24" subs and three 18" subs...

Actually Brandon is right. My front subs are 24" and the rears are 18"... Now the net average of those is 20.6, so rounding up that would be 21.0.....maybe that is one way to explain it.

I would be honored to have you visit my room but would almost be embarrassed showing it compared to what I know you have put together. Once the lights go off, you can't see anything so maybe I will give you a flashlight and you can find your seat that way.
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post #1734 of 1985 Old 10-20-2017, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow @COACH2369 ...who would have thought going smaller mains would be an improvement....but again once the screen is up it wouldn't matter as long as you do hear an improvement. Can't wait to see your rear marianas....that brings it up to 5 subs total right? And I need to save up money and get mine after speaking with David about it!
It has been an interesting journey to say the least over the last few years. Within the last few months I have learned quite a bit about speakers. The biggest thing I had reiterated to me was how important the room is. I was only 9.5 feet away from my screen wall. This really limited my 4722's from opening up like they needed to. I also had quite a bit of cancellation going on between the 15's in the 4722's and my subs.

I was just talking to Beastaudio about this earlier today. The 708's have impressed me in every way possible. The biggest thing is how well the separation is in my LCR channels, while still maintaining an equally wide sound stage. It is almost better now from that aspect due to the excellent separation. That wave guide is special. Mid bass is now tighter and cleaner than it was before and the subs have been integrated perfectly, that is all due to the excellent work of @Chad B .

The best way to summarize it all up is that everyone in the room is sharing and playing nice together, which gives me a very happy end result.

Having excellent subs like the Marianas paired up with just a solid speaker like the 708p would make a great system for plenty of folks.... 6 months ago I would never have thought that.

You need to pull the trigger on those subs and then get on the list for Chad to come calibrate everything. I can almost guarantee you won't regret having both those subs and Chad working on them.
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post #1735 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:26 PM
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Well, I finally joined the club! ;-) After Coach lent me a pair of his Mariana 18 subs to demo I was hooked. David brought them over and set them up. I don't understand all the WAF discussion here. My wife only had 5 words for me when she heard the demo, "you have to have these". Yes, I have a great wife.

David brought the subs over Friday and I have been dialing my system in. I think my in room response looks pretty good. :-)

I am coming from a Genelec 7073a with 4 12 inch drivers. Deep Sea Sound subs need to be experienced to be believed. Subs and customer service second to none.
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post #1736 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:28 PM
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Deep Sea Sound subs need to be experienced to be believed. Subs and customer service second to none.
I couldn't agree more! Welcome to the Club!!!

Evolution of My Theater Build

Speakers: Procella P8 (LCR), P6V (2 Front Side), P5 (2 Rear Side, 2 Rear, 4 Ceiling). Subs: Deep Sea Sound Custom 18" Mariana (4). Amps: Crown DCi 8|300 (2), SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT. Processors: Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP-8080 (2). Video: JVC RS400, 2.37 Seymour AV 120" Enlightor 4K Screen, Kaleidescape Strato, Philips BDP7501. Control: iRule.
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post #1737 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I finally joined the club! ;-) After Coach lent me a pair of his Mariana 18 subs to demo I was hooked. David brought them over and set them up. I don't understand all the WAF discussion here. My wife only had 5 words for me when she heard the demo, "you have to have these". Yes, I have a great wife.

David brought the subs over Friday and I have been dialing my system in. I think my in room response looks pretty good. :-)

I am coming from a Genelec 7073a with 4 12 inch drivers. Deep Sea Sound subs need to be experienced to be believed. Subs and customer service second to none.
Looks like you now need two more subs for the rear of the room.
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post #1738 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:31 PM
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Looks like you now need two more subs for the rear of the room.
Haha...this is true!

Evolution of My Theater Build

Speakers: Procella P8 (LCR), P6V (2 Front Side), P5 (2 Rear Side, 2 Rear, 4 Ceiling). Subs: Deep Sea Sound Custom 18" Mariana (4). Amps: Crown DCi 8|300 (2), SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT. Processors: Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP-8080 (2). Video: JVC RS400, 2.37 Seymour AV 120" Enlightor 4K Screen, Kaleidescape Strato, Philips BDP7501. Control: iRule.
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post #1739 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:37 PM
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Looks like you now need two more subs for the rear of the room.
I don't think that I have earthquake coverage on my homeowners insurance policy. My room is just under 3000 sq ft and combining these two with a Crowson system gives me the tactile feel I wanted along with a smooth freq. response throughout my room.
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post #1740 of 1985 Old 10-22-2017, 12:40 PM
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I don't think that I have earthquake coverage on my homeowners insurance policy. My room is just under 3000 sq ft and combining these two with a Crowson system gives me the tactile feel I wanted along with a smooth freq. response throughout my room.
My theater is 280 square feet, minus the cubic volume I lose with my 18" rear riser. I put 4 of 18" Mariana's with the 12,000, 240v amp in there. It's amazing! With 300 square feet, you have plenty of room to spare!

Evolution of My Theater Build

Speakers: Procella P8 (LCR), P6V (2 Front Side), P5 (2 Rear Side, 2 Rear, 4 Ceiling). Subs: Deep Sea Sound Custom 18" Mariana (4). Amps: Crown DCi 8|300 (2), SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT. Processors: Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP-8080 (2). Video: JVC RS400, 2.37 Seymour AV 120" Enlightor 4K Screen, Kaleidescape Strato, Philips BDP7501. Control: iRule.
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