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post #1921 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What are your settings on the Rythmik plate amp?
I’ve tried them all, but usually 12Hz, high damping I think.
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post #1922 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 07:00 AM
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I’ve tried them all, but usually 12Hz, high damping I think.
For songs like Bass I Love you try switching to Low damping and disabling the rumble filter.
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post #1923 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 08:16 AM
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For songs like Bass I Love you try switching to Low damping and disabling the rumble filter.
I’ll try that. The limiter should remain on though right?
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post #1924 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
I’ll try that. The limiter should remain on though right?
Turning the limiter off doesn't really give any performance boost, while putting your driver in danger of being damaged. I think Rythmik is dropping that feature in newer amps. So, yeah, keep the limiter on.

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post #1925 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 09:19 AM
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I’ll try that. The limiter should remain on though right?
Yes, keep the limiter on at all times (I blew FV18 driver with it off).
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post #1926 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
How does a Mariana 24 sound compared to something like the Rythmik G25HP which I have now? It looks like a big upgrade in output but what about musicality? The Rythmik is so good with music but I want a sub that can play Bass I Love You and feel that 7Hz hit. My system is 100% music so I really want a sub that can play any song perfectly and that includes electronic bass music.
Don't quite have my two Mariana 24s yet (they're in transit), but I'll share some of the @coolrda AVS quotes that convinced me to try them. He doesn't have any DSS subs that I know of, but he built his own 24" sub using the same HS-24 driver found in the Mariana 24s.

The quotes below mostly talk about the impact the HS-24 delivers, but I highlighted his quotes where he talks about their SQ. Coolrda is probably tired of me quoting him, but I value his opinion since he has a lot of experience with some serious subs, and also started the Vibsensor Accelerometer Test thread. This is a long popular thread that gives hobbyists a way to quantify the amount of tactile response different subs produce.

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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I had a lot of questions about the performance I could expect. I already know this is one of the baddest drivers on the planet. I've read everyone's reviews, the DIYers and commercially bought, the show reports and so I'm well aware of its performance, how dominant it can be, but, what will this do for me. How would this feel, sound, add to or subtract from the performance?

Review 9/17/17

Like always, when I get close to the end, all heck breaks loose and I’m full on head first. How many of us are 95 percent done with our rooms and will always be 95 percent done. I want instant gratification. Nevermind that its takes months to fine tune picture and sound, I expected to plug it in, throw the switch and Bam, perfect bass. Nope. No sound from the sub. So I go through the process to remedy this, the amp’s second channel was unplugged, the second sub in the prepro was off and so down the line. I was highly stressed. Its late Saturday morning, I’m having a GTG and I’m insisting on cooking and still had number of things to do. Point is its less than an ideal day to test drive the new sub. I don’t recommend it. My thought was I’m fine with the front subs, their extremely tactile now and the Crowson’s will mop up whats left. I’ll leave it off and mess with it later. Can’t see it anyway.

Demo time with Kong. I bounce around the disc while raising the volume thinking is this thing gonna boogie or what. Then Kong fists Jackson. And me. I got drilled. Caught flush. I’m not talking about the heavy pressurized feeling I get with the 18’s. The diving in the pool or popping the ears. No. This is getting punched in the nose! Much different than the hair tingling, pants flapping. But I have never felt the skin ripple thru my body. These sensations are easily explained scientifically. Having the sheer power to pull this off is another thing all together. This is what all you owners of the 24’s have been describing. Now I understand. It stunned me. My response was what just happened. Its takes about 3 to 4 shots to comprehend whats going on. It's speed, agility and tonality is shocking. Its crushing tactile but by way of a dynamic swing so large and quick that your left wondering what just happened. Whats dumbfounding is the scale of this thing. I’m use to x amount of SPL produces x amount of TR, PR, etc. You can move the lines and ratios up and down various ways but they pretty much sound and perform as expected. Adding the Crowson really took mine up a notch. Then this 800lb Gorilla comes in, I unchain this bad boy and say do your worst big fella and it obliterates what I’ve had to date. Juggernaut is fitting. I’ve had 8x18’s nearfield in the past and theres no comparison. Theres more at play here that I need to figure out than just matching SPL.

Lastly is near field performance. If my 18’s are a shovel then this driver is the earthmover at the beginning of Avatar. It moved my seats forward an inch. Its effortless like Vince and dc mentioned above. Even with little cone travel it makes a big impression. Everything is near field with this sub. This is a UberSub. I’ve only watched the Guardians 2 and parts of Kong so I can’t comment on anything else but we’re off to good start.
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There will be a lot more to come. I'll run every conceivable test on that thing and post the results. I was really rushed Saturday and really needed a couple days just to set it properly. When I finally got a chance to crank it, the neighbors were on me. Three years and not a peep with the 8 18's and 10 mins with this animal and it's game over. That was a downer. No worries since I do my most damage during day when everyone's gone. Next day off I'll lock myself in for 6 hours and it's on. Then I'll have something to show and tell. I did find a particular aspect that's cool. With my Marantz app I can and did make adjustments on the fly during the movie with the guests none the wiser. I got a good balance by ear. Normally I run 15db hot. It's kind of the norm with the fellas here. Unbeknownst to me until the day after I had it set 4-6db hot. With the same dynamics. Of course that has a positive effect on the overall sound. It will be interesting to see if that remains the case. I thought that was remarkable. A Phenom sub.
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I made some test tracks that work pretty good. Got some Bursts and some single digit Sweeps that show off the 24 nicely.

Theres good conversation currently being discussed on the IB24 thread. Clearly graphs, measurement and explanation doesn't convey the performance of the 24. Coming from 12 subs in a 1400cuft room that would shake a car a 100ft away but didn't cause to much of a disturbance to the 24 which instantly summoned my neighbors proves this. I can't explain it fully, you have to experience this. Theres a penetrative destructiveness with this driver, an X-Factor. I love the cool factor of multiple subs as well as the other benefits but theres no comparison between them. Its like trying to describe HDR/WCG to someone only familair with standard HD and what improved color and dynamics look like. You can explain how its close to your normal vision. Its only after you see it that you understand. Its like that with the 24. I'm sure my 6x18's up front will measure louder, smoother, etc. but theres no comparison, even 6 to 1.
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I love the tonality of this driver which isn't talked about enough. Take away all the rest and i would still pick this sub over anything i've heard for sound quality. I'm sure the dynamics play a big part in this. I really like the sound of the first gen HT18 but this is better, even at low volume with no impact. I like this much better than the sub it directly replaced and I love that sub. They measure identical so theres more to it than that.

Yes I have been thinking of replacing the six with one more of these and thats exactly how I'd do it, one in front and one in back. I have good coverage with just the rear sub and have been using that one alone with good results. I'm sure it would be an improvement but I'm sticking with what I have for now.

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post #1927 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 05:34 PM
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Thanks for that. The thing sounds ridiculous. I’m still interested in more descriptions of how it plays music compared to Rythmiks, but I can feel the urge to posses a 24” driver rising. I’m working my way through this thread for more details.
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post #1928 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 06:14 PM
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Hey @dgage , just curious, you ever think about making master/slave pairs like Seaton does with their subs? I'm sure these 24" drivers can suck up a lot more power and I don't know if they can be wired with a compatible impedance, but...just curious. It doesn't appear Mark went this route with the new 21" driver, so...maybe it just doesn't make sense.
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post #1929 of 1985 Old 03-15-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Hey @dgage , just curious, you ever think about making master/slave pairs like Seaton does with their subs? I'm sure these 24" drivers can suck up a lot more power and I don't know if they can be wired with a compatible impedance, but...just curious. It doesn't appear Mark went this route with the new 21" driver, so...maybe it just doesn't make sense.
Mark is using 2 different drivers for those amps. In both cases the amp will tap out before the driver. I would imagine he would sell a sp4000 slave out if asked for the AD or PD version. Thats how I run my 21's, its a good match and its a copy of his

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post #1930 of 1985 Old 03-16-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Hey @dgage , just curious, you ever think about making master/slave pairs like Seaton does with their subs? I'm sure these 24" drivers can suck up a lot more power and I don't know if they can be wired with a compatible impedance, but...just curious. It doesn't appear Mark went this route with the new 21" driver, so...maybe it just doesn't make sense.
Thanks for the question DreamWarrior. If you look at the Mariana 18SD (https://www.deepseasound.com/product...l-18-subwoofer), we do indeed utilize a pair of drivers on a single amp giving each driver 2,000w. I have also sold some subs in an active/passive configuration powered by a single 4,000w channel. So we do offer it but haven't really posted it on the website. We could do the same for a pair of Mariana 24s giving each 2,000w.

While there is obviously a cost component for using one amp channel to drive two drivers, thereare some good reasons to keep a single amp powering a single sub driver.

1. If you're using a single amp channel to drive multiple drivers, you have to treat all of them as one in terms of DSP control. So you would need to place the subs equidistant to the main listening position such as both up front flanking the center channel or both symmetrically placed in the back. You couldn't put one sub up front and one in the back on a single amp channel as those are likely not going to be equidistant and the bass signal wouldn't reach the ear at the same time.

2. 18" or 24" drivers are impressive on 2,000w but they are at another level when driven by a full 4,000w. But if a person wanted to initially get a pair of subs and later upgrade to a second amp, I would definitely work with a user and make it happen.

Part of the reason I don't officially offer it is the website software doesn't make it easy and it hasn't been a priority as there are so many items we need to continue to work hard to improve upon.
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post #1931 of 1985 Old 03-16-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
How does a Mariana 24 sound compared to something like the Rythmik G25HP which I have now? It looks like a big upgrade in output but what about musicality? The Rythmik is so good with music but I want a sub that can play Bass I Love You and feel that 7Hz hit. My system is 100% music so I really want a sub that can play any song perfectly and that includes electronic bass music.
I started to write more about Rythmik and servo-control but I'll keep it simple. I don't think servo-control is needed with how well drivers are built today. But Rythmik has built their niche with servo-controlled subwoofers and they have a well-deserved reputation and brand so my hats are off to them. The brute strength and capability of our drivers don't need servo-control to provide deep, tight, and articulate bass. Again, though I want to be clear that Rythmik makes a quality product that just happens to use servo-control and kudos to them for what they've built.

Before I get to the music question, let's talk about the more proper comparison for the Rythmik G25HP, which is the Mariana 18S. A pair of 15" subs has a little more surface area than a single 18" driver but if you look at the excursion capability and 1,800w vs 4,000w, I'd say output wise they'd be pretty similar. A single Mariana 24 should be more than a match for a pair of Rythmik G25HP. Which brings in what darrellh44 was referring to, a larger driver will impact more than a smaller driver. I have 12" midrange drivers and they definitely give more midbass impact than a similar 8" driver. I liken it to a towel snap, a larger driver won't have to move as far, snapping more while an 8" will have to travel farther and so is pushing more than it is snapping. I don't know what the physics term is for this phenomena but it is definitely something that I've noticed.

Now regarding music, a transducer (speaker or subwoofer) doesn't know what signal it is being passed, it should simply faithfully reproduce whatever signal it is sent. The issue is more when a subwoofer isn't capable enough to play all of the frequencies to sufficient volume but since our subs play louder and deeper than anything comparable on the market, this isn't an issue. But really, that isn't your concern, you're concerned with whether the subwoofers can play nuanced material and the answer is absolutely, no problem at all. The following quote is from someone that heard the Mariana 24SR (with older MK I driver, MK II is stronger, better) at THE Newport Show back in 2015. At that show, I had the Mariana 24 crossed at 120Hz, not because I necessarily recommend it, but because I wanted to show what it was capable of. dsrussell heard the subs earlier in the weekend and after a discussion, I told him to come back and I'd turn the system over to him with his own music loaded. He said the subwoofer articulately played difficult passages with multiple notes around 20-25 Hz. There was one other quote I was looking for but I couldn't find it. I will say we've had several customers who went from a Rythmik ported sub to a Mariana 18S and one of the main reasons for the switch was the port noise when pushed though that doesn't apply to your sealed subs.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...o_threadsearch

Hope that answers your questions appropriately.
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post #1932 of 1985 Old 03-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Thanks for the question DreamWarrior. If you look at the Mariana 18SD (https://www.deepseasound.com/product...l-18-subwoofer), we do indeed utilize a pair of drivers on a single amp giving each driver 2,000w. I have also sold some subs in an active/passive configuration powered by a single 4,000w channel. So we do offer it but haven't really posted it on the website. We could do the same for a pair of Mariana 24s giving each 2,000w.

While there is obviously a cost component for using one amp channel to drive two drivers, thereare some good reasons to keep a single amp powering a single sub driver.

1. If you're using a single amp channel to drive multiple drivers, you have to treat all of them as one in terms of DSP control. So you would need to place the subs equidistant to the main listening position such as both up front flanking the center channel or both symmetrically placed in the back. You couldn't put one sub up front and one in the back on a single amp channel as those are likely not going to be equidistant and the bass signal wouldn't reach the ear at the same time.

2. 18" or 24" drivers are impressive on 2,000w but they are at another level when driven by a full 4,000w. But if a person wanted to initially get a pair of subs and later upgrade to a second amp, I would definitely work with a user and make it happen.

Part of the reason I don't officially offer it is the website software doesn't make it easy and it hasn't been a priority as there are so many items we need to continue to work hard to improve upon.
Thanks for the answer!


I am aware the tweaking limits of using a single amp with multiple drivers; I have four Seaton F18s in the front of my room and two are "passive" and two are active -- the left two are tied together and so are the right two. In the rear, two SubMs, right behind the couch, also both on the same amp. So, I keep my pairs together already. Though, I only tweaked the delay by ear so far, I really need to get REW on this setup...time makes it hard: kid, work, new baby on the way...yeah...it just doesn't happen .



Having said that, I asked because I am considering an upgrade. I briefly spoke with Mark, but I feel like he's getting exceptionally busy with life and other projects, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do. My wife will probably murder me anyway, lol, so...who knows. But, I was thinking about replicating the setup with 24" drivers all around or at least in front. So, I was just trying to figure out my options. I remember talking with you a while back, and I know you're passionate about this stuff; I certainly feel like supporting your efforts is worthwhile. Plus, it'd be fun to see how the 24" guys would pair with my M2s!
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post #1933 of 1985 Old 03-17-2019, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the answer!


I am aware the tweaking limits of using a single amp with multiple drivers; I have four Seaton F18s in the front of my room and two are "passive" and two are active -- the left two are tied together and so are the right two. In the rear, two SubMs, right behind the couch, also both on the same amp. So, I keep my pairs together already. Though, I only tweaked the delay by ear so far, I really need to get REW on this setup...time makes it hard: kid, work, new baby on the way...yeah...it just doesn't happen .



Having said that, I asked because I am considering an upgrade. I briefly spoke with Mark, but I feel like he's getting exceptionally busy with life and other projects, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do. My wife will probably murder me anyway, lol, so...who knows. But, I was thinking about replicating the setup with 24" drivers all around or at least in front. So, I was just trying to figure out my options. I remember talking with you a while back, and I know you're passionate about this stuff; I certainly feel like supporting your efforts is worthwhile. Plus, it'd be fun to see how the 24" guys would pair with my M2s!
I would also love to hear your thoughts on pairing the 24" mariana with the M2's. I have my mine currently paired with JBL 4429's and last night was the first viewing session since Chadb calibrated everything with the new speakers. WOW....is all I can say. This has been my favorite calibration to date and everything is really dialed in now.
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post #1934 of 1985 Old 03-17-2019, 07:31 AM
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I would also love to hear your thoughts on pairing the 24" mariana with the M2's. I have my mine currently paired with JBL 4429's and last night was the first viewing session since Chadb calibrated everything with the new speakers. WOW....is all I can say. This has been my favorite calibration to date and everything is really dialed in now.
I thought ChadB only did the video side. Didn't realize he does audio calibration as well. Awesome!

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post #1935 of 1985 Old 03-18-2019, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought ChadB only did the video side. Didn't realize he does audio calibration as well. Awesome!
I think he is equally as talented in this area as well. He has been calibrating audio for me since 2004.
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post #1936 of 1985 Old 03-18-2019, 05:18 AM
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I think he is equally as talented in this area as well. He has been calibrating audio for me since 2004.
Care to share the differences in sound or what he did? I'm just curious what audio calibration consists of. If you don't want to share in here you can PM me if preferred.

Nevermind….I just found his website and its listed there!

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post #1937 of 1985 Old 03-18-2019, 12:16 PM
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I would also love to hear your thoughts on pairing the 24" mariana with the M2's. I have my mine currently paired with JBL 4429's and last night was the first viewing session since Chadb calibrated everything with the new speakers. WOW....is all I can say. This has been my favorite calibration to date and everything is really dialed in now.
What did he do for calibration? I have a lot to do in this room, still. I have been messing around with the M2 toe-in regularly and it keeps bouncing between a wide image that is fairly stable over my couch to a razor-sharp image that requires my head in a vice. I am hoping to pick up some acoustic treatment soon and then I'll be dorking with Dirac more. But, if Chad tweaks the acoustic panel placement and other such things, maybe I'll pick some up and see what he can do, saving myself all the tweak-time so I can get in better seat-time actually enjoying it, lol.
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post #1938 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 11:58 AM
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I've heard Chad's calibrations multiple times and he did indeed need some training on the audio side, but not how you might think. With the Mariana 24s in Coach's room, he had to train Chad to really add a house curve with more bass. After the third calibration Chad had it down with beautiful sound, tight hard-hitting midbass, and a strong house curve though that was on the "fun" DSP setting as he also had a normal listening mode he setup.

Since Coach has a speaker addiction, in his room I've heard JTR 212s, JTR215RT/RM, Seaton Cat 12s, JBL 4722s, JBL 708P, and now JBL 4429s. I've heard many before and after Chad's work and they ALWAYS sound better after he's done his magic. Really smooth and articulate sound now with the midbass and bass some of us enthusiasts want. He also does an absolutely fantastic job on video. Really a great guy and takes his time to do the job right, I'm sure too much time for some but they definitely get their money's worth. So if you have a nice audio or video system, you should definitely get it calibrated by a talented calibrator so you can get the most out of your investment. However good your current (uncalibrated) system sounds, a good calibrator can make a HUGE difference, and Chad is definitely one I'd recommend.

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post #1939 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 12:07 PM
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Having said that, I asked because I am considering an upgrade. I briefly spoke with Mark, but I feel like he's getting exceptionally busy with life and other projects, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do. My wife will probably murder me anyway, lol, so...who knows. But, I was thinking about replicating the setup with 24" drivers all around or at least in front. So, I was just trying to figure out my options. I remember talking with you a while back, and I know you're passionate about this stuff; I certainly feel like supporting your efforts is worthwhile. Plus, it'd be fun to see how the 24" guys would pair with my M2s!
I have heard the M2s twice I believe, the first time they were being played hard in an untreated room full range at a GeToGether. They definitely didn't live up to the hype. The second time I heard them, they were setup properly and sounded really good. I'm sure the M2s fit full range speakers for some but to me they definitely need a sub, which would reduce some of the work they do as well as allowing them to produce more impactful midbass if you like your DSP setup that way. I'd also like to hear the M2s with the Mariana 24s but realistically that is a phenomenal speaker that needs a phenomenal subwoofer. I think either the Mariana 18 or 24 would work depending on your room constraints and what you are trying to accomplish. The 24s may be overkill for music but just right for movies and music. Don't let the size fool you, the 24 can faithfully reproduce music as it doesn't know the difference between music content and movie content, it just sees an electrical signal. 24s all around??? Depending on where your (rear) seating is, the rear 24s may be too close for you to use much of their capability so for that I'd recommend 18s in the rear.

Sounds like a really nice system!

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post #1940 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 12:22 PM
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@dgage Do you think I could make a Mariana 24 work well together with my G25HP? I’d hate to sell it.
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post #1941 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I have heard the M2s twice I believe, the first time they were being played hard in an untreated room full range at a GeToGether. They definitely didn't live up to the hype. The second time I heard them, they were setup properly and sounded really good. I'm sure the M2s fit full range speakers for some but to me they definitely need a sub, which would reduce some of the work they do as well as allowing them to produce more impactful midbass if you like your DSP setup that way. I'd also like to hear the M2s with the Mariana 24s but realistically that is a phenomenal speaker that needs a phenomenal subwoofer. I think either the Mariana 18 or 24 would work depending on your room constraints and what you are trying to accomplish. The 24s may be overkill for music but just right for movies and music. Don't let the size fool you, the 24 can faithfully reproduce music as it doesn't know the difference between music content and movie content, it just sees an electrical signal. 24s all around??? Depending on where your (rear) seating is, the rear 24s may be too close for you to use much of their capability so for that I'd recommend 18s in the rear.

Sounds like a really nice system!
I'd love to have you over to hear it! If you want to bring some 24s, they may not leave, lol. I just wish I had more time to tweak it, but I've been working too many 14-16 hour days lately. I certainly enjoy how it is right now, but being on a concrete slab now, it's a lot harder to get any impact.

As for the M2s and full-range, I've ran them that way, and they certainly play nice and clean, but for the content I listen to and the ULF-tard curve I enjoy, they definitely need subs. Unfortunately, IMO, their efficiency requires a lot of sub horsepower to have a chance of keeping up (and keeping up with my desired house curve) -- especially because the room it's all in is an open-concept basement. I'd love to change that, but I kind of like the way the basement flows this way...just wish it wasn't full of toys and storage on the larger half (and all around my pool table, lol).
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post #1942 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
@dgage Do you think I could make a Mariana 24 work well together with my G25HP? I’d hate to sell it.
Well, the output capability of the G25HP is about half that of the Mariana 24. So you wouldn't necessarily need it for output capability but I could see value in you keeping it assuming you had the ability to DSP the subs independently or if your receiver has 2 independent sub outputs (i.e. Audyssey XT32). Multiple subs usually even out the bass response in a room so the G25HP should definitely be able to smooth the overall room response of your bass. And if you were able to keep the G25HP nearfield, such as right behind your seating, you could use it for more tactile bass and being nearfield, it wouldn't need the same output capability as your main sub since it is so close you'd have to turn it down some anyway. So depending on your situation, I could definitely see value to having both subs. I know BeastAudio also turns off his main subs and just uses his nearfield sub to watch movies or play games late at night so you'd have that option as well.
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post #1943 of 1985 Old 03-19-2019, 05:34 PM
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I use an Emotiva PT-100 preamp so the only adjustments I can make are on the sub itself. It only has one sub out.
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post #1944 of 1985 Old 03-20-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
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I've heard Chad's calibrations multiple times and he did indeed need some training on the audio side, but not how you might think. With the Mariana 24s in Coach's room, he had to train Chad to really add a house curve with more bass. After the third calibration Chad had it down with beautiful sound, tight hard-hitting midbass, and a strong house curve though that was on the "fun" DSP setting as he also had a normal listening mode he setup.
I really wish I had not found this thread but thx to @darrellh44 , I do now. I was thoroughly enjoying my Mini Marty with UXL18 and here comes 24" subs. Woowwwww. Very nice thread. Would be fun to read it and it seems like dgage is very responsive. Its always so good to see a proud owner sharing all the good info.

So this house curve that @COACH2369 has, what does it look like? I don't think many use flat anymore but I could be wrong. The fact that 50Hz needs more spl to sound as loud as 100Hz and 30Hz needs more than 50Hz automatically provides a house curve if you spl meter to see what it takes to get the same spl across the frequencies.
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post #1945 of 1985 Old 03-20-2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ianrozzano View Post
I use an Emotiva PT-100 preamp so the only adjustments I can make are on the sub itself. It only has one sub out.
You could definitely integrate both using the controls on the amps for each subwoofer but you may get better results with more control. Do you have a microphone that you can use with REW to determine when you've reached the correct delay and other settings? With that, you should be able to get pretty good results just using the amp controls but it will take some work. Here's a link to an audio delay calculator (http://www.brightonsoundsystem.co.uk...udio-delay.php) that you can use as a rough estimate for setting the further sub's delay. From there you would keep taking measurements making minor changes to the subs. You'd could also do the same with the crossover unless you're using the preamp to manage the crossover point.

But if you wanted more control to get more optimal results with even just one subwoofer, I might recommend getting a MiniDSP 2x4HD or similar DSP, which would give you significantly improved control. And if you do buy a second subwoofer, a fantastic piece of software to help optimize them is offered by a talented and generous AVS member and it is called the Multi Subwoofer Optimizer (MSO). He gets a lot of support requests so it is highly recommended to thoroughly read the tutorials before asking questions.

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...optimizer.html

Let me know if you have any questions.

David

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post #1946 of 1985 Old 03-20-2019, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I'd love to have you over to hear it! If you want to bring some 24s, they may not leave, lol. I just wish I had more time to tweak it, but I've been working too many 14-16 hour days lately. I certainly enjoy how it is right now, but being on a concrete slab now, it's a lot harder to get any impact.

As for the M2s and full-range, I've ran them that way, and they certainly play nice and clean, but for the content I listen to and the ULF-tard curve I enjoy, they definitely need subs. Unfortunately, IMO, their efficiency requires a lot of sub horsepower to have a chance of keeping up (and keeping up with my desired house curve) -- especially because the room it's all in is an open-concept basement. I'd love to change that, but I kind of like the way the basement flows this way...just wish it wasn't full of toys and storage on the larger half (and all around my pool table, lol).
You are right that the M2s are incredibly efficient and need some authoritative subs. You are also correct that a concrete slab can take a lot of fun out of subwoofers. I did the following testing for a customer (Aareses on AVS and build thread is below) as I was trying to talk him into putting a couple layers of floor sheathing over the concrete with a layer of rubber in between. Even though he is tall and really wanted to maximize height, he relented and went with my suggestion and after he finished the room, he said that made a huge difference and was happy he did it. Even if you already have carpet, it wouldn’t be that expensive to pull it up and put a couple layers of floor sheathing down over the rubber. Then again, I would understand completely if that weren’t an option but I’d at least recommend considering it as it would impart a much more tactile bass.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...tile-bass.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...ng-advice.html

Not sure if that would be an option but even just that little bit would make a huge difference with your subwoofer system. Ideally it would be completely under your subwoofers as well as your seating.

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post #1947 of 1985 Old 03-20-2019, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
I really wish I had not found this thread but thx to @darrellh44 , I do now. I was thoroughly enjoying my Mini Marty with UXL18 and here comes 24" subs. Woowwwww. Very nice thread. Would be fun to read it and it seems like dgage is very responsive. Its always so good to see a proud owner sharing all the good info.

So this house curve that @COACH2369 has, what does it look like? I don't think many use flat anymore but I could be wrong. The fact that 50Hz needs more spl to sound as loud as 100Hz and 30Hz needs more than 50Hz automatically provides a house curve if you spl meter to see what it takes to get the same spl across the frequencies.
I'm sure you are enjoying a Mini Marty as I'm sure it is a pretty potent DIY sub though I'm not sure the Mini moniker really fits.

Knowing Coach, I'm pretty sure it looks something like the diagram below (edited-my ascii drawing didn't work with the forum software). But seriously, he likes strong bass and very strong midbass but clear dialogue is probably the most important focus and he finishes up with smooth, detailed highs. So that's pretty much what he tells Chad and Chad definitely delivers. Dialogue is clear and the highs are smooth and detailed. Midbass is very strong and hard hitting in the chest. And the bass is strong and enveloping without being too much for a bass head but he definitely has a tune that is less hot on the bass for normal visitors as well as his wife that doesn't like the bass nearly as hot.

But seriously, speaking about house or tuning response curves, I usually lean toward the "Harmon Curve" which is a shallow decreasing slope from bass to highs. Here's a quick discussion I found that covers the concept for those that aren't familiar. https://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...r-target-curve

And yes it takes more power and capability to produce deeper bass, which is why I went with 18" and 24" subs and a full 4,000w per driver. Before I started Deep Sea Sound, I had 18" subs with 2,000w per driver and then I later upgraded to 4,000w per driver (all on SpeakerPower amps). There was a marked difference and quite a bit more capability. So with the 4,000w and the high excursion, large drivers, our subs definitely have the ability to reproduce deep bass below 20 Hz. And I've measured the 24s in over a dozen rooms and in every room except one, the 24 was flat to 7Hz with the lone exception being flat to 6Hz with testing done at approximately 105 dB. Now that is in-room and is assisted by the normal deep bass room gain but all subs get room gain and very, very few are able to reach below 10Hz much less be flat to under 10Hz are reference levels. Some would question whether it is worth chasing 10Hz reproduction but there are many movies with content below 20Hz and even below 10Hz. In the case of Lone Survivor, I found out the hard way that the sound engineers didn't realize they had left in a helicopter signal at 6.5Hz as it was 10dB or so louder than the rest of the movie soundtrack. Many other movies have content near 10dB that was purposeful but then there are also movies that filter bass below 20Hz. I wish the movie sound engineers used our subs so they could do a better job of engineering the movie soundtracks as sometimes its hit or miss on whether a movie soundtrack turns out well.

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post #1948 of 1985 Old 03-21-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Handy4U View Post
Lol, what would you guys even listen to on those subwoofers? Seems like you would get a fast headache.
Same content as you would listen on any other subwoofers. Size of the sub has nothing to do with giving you a quicker headache as long as you listen to tolerable spl levels.

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post #1949 of 1985 Old 03-21-2019, 05:25 AM
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Lol, what would you guys even listen to on those subwoofers? Seems like you would get a fast headache.
I know right. All the migraines.
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post #1950 of 1985 Old 03-21-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I'm sure you are enjoying a Mini Marty as I'm sure it is a pretty potent DIY sub though I'm not sure the Mini moniker really fits.

Knowing Coach, I'm pretty sure it looks something like the diagram below (edited-my ascii drawing didn't work with the forum software). But seriously, he likes strong bass and very strong midbass but clear dialogue is probably the most important focus and he finishes up with smooth, detailed highs. So that's pretty much what he tells Chad and Chad definitely delivers. Dialogue is clear and the highs are smooth and detailed. Midbass is very strong and hard hitting in the chest. And the bass is strong and enveloping without being too much for a bass head but he definitely has a tune that is less hot on the bass for normal visitors as well as his wife that doesn't like the bass nearly as hot.

But seriously, speaking about house or tuning response curves, I usually lean toward the "Harmon Curve" which is a shallow decreasing slope from bass to highs. Here's a quick discussion I found that covers the concept for those that aren't familiar. https://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...r-target-curve

And yes it takes more power and capability to produce deeper bass, which is why I went with 18" and 24" subs and a full 4,000w per driver. Before I started Deep Sea Sound, I had 18" subs with 2,000w per driver and then I later upgraded to 4,000w per driver (all on SpeakerPower amps). There was a marked difference and quite a bit more capability. So with the 4,000w and the high excursion, large drivers, our subs definitely have the ability to reproduce deep bass below 20 Hz. And I've measured the 24s in over a dozen rooms and in every room except one, the 24 was flat to 7Hz with the lone exception being flat to 6Hz with testing done at approximately 105 dB. Now that is in-room and is assisted by the normal deep bass room gain but all subs get room gain and very, very few are able to reach below 10Hz much less be flat to under 10Hz are reference levels. Some would question whether it is worth chasing 10Hz reproduction but there are many movies with content below 20Hz and even below 10Hz. In the case of Lone Survivor, I found out the hard way that the sound engineers didn't realize they had left in a helicopter signal at 6.5Hz as it was 10dB or so louder than the rest of the movie soundtrack. Many other movies have content near 10dB that was purposeful but then there are also movies that filter bass below 20Hz. I wish the movie sound engineers used our subs so they could do a better job of engineering the movie soundtracks as sometimes its hit or miss on whether a movie soundtrack turns out well.
Thx for the link. I'll read it up. Seems like a good read on my morning commute . When you say MidBass, are you talking about 50-100Hz? Midbass seems to have different range from person to person.
As for chasing 10hz and wondering if its worth it because of lack of confidence, worry no more. We have BEQ. That thread has so many movies now and it keeps on growing. In my case though, my subs fall after 22Hz because of room but gain b/w 33-60Hz. Now if I move subs to front of room, opposite happens, I gain in low frequencies but falls b/w 40-100Hz. Currently I'm keeping my subs in the back of room.
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