Power Cable Effect on Subwoofer Performance - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 9Likes
  • 1 Post By Bill Fitzmaurice
  • 2 Post By Bill Fitzmaurice
  • 1 Post By tvuong
  • 2 Post By lovinthehd
  • 1 Post By lovinthehd
  • 1 Post By braveheart123
  • 1 Post By lovinthehd
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Power Cable Effect on Subwoofer Performance

I had been running both Rythmik sub and CA avr off the same extension cable. I don't know the electrical power draw of Rythmik for playing the peaks at reference or close to it, but CA consumes close to 1700 watts on full tilt.
It never occurred to me if the fluttering problem I'd been having over the last year and a half had anything remotely to do with the electrical power. I only got to know it when I plugged Rythmik directly into wall socket. The problem went away and it is a whole new sub now.

I always said that it had low output to the surprise of all FV15HP owners on here. I always said the little balls buster (PSB, plugged directly into wall socket) had more output than Rythmik, which baffled me a lot. Just to check, I plugged PSB S500 into the same extension with CA avr, it also started fluttering as did Rythmik.

So, I know what caused all this mess after pulling my hair horizon to horizon for a very long time. God knows what gauge extension cable my electrician installed at that time; but it sure is the culprit. It just cannot allow enough current draw when peaks kick in.

Can somebody explain as to why would sub amp or, for that matter, any amp clip output in this situation??

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500

Last edited by braveheart123; 05-30-2015 at 03:38 PM.
braveheart123 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 04:38 PM
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 15,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post
Can somebody explain as to why would sub amp or, for that matter, any amp clip output in this situation??
Because it doesn't have enough voltage and/or current available. It would take a really crappy extension for that to happen, like 18 gauge, assuming it's not 50 feet long.
oneeyeblind likes this.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Because it doesn't have enough voltage and/or current available. It would take a really crappy extension for that to happen, like 18 gauge, assuming it's not 50 feet long.
Thanx Bill.... I'm taking direct feed from a vacant air conditioning wall socket from my lounge, which is on 20 amp circuit. It goes into a 7KVA power stabilizer. Then there is a 40 ft long extension cable running along the wall into my room and terminating into the extension that has 3 sockets. I had Rythmik and CA avr plugged into the the same extension. And I do not for once now think that this extension wire is of a heavy gauge.

Do you think this is the culprit? If so, what gauge wire do you suggest?

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Also, am I correct to deduce that it caused clipping in the output stage of amplifier?

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 07:07 PM
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 15,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post
what gauge wire do you suggest?
14ga for 15 amps, 12ga for 20 amps. An amp will clip when the power supply rails can't meet the demand, and that can happen with a too small supply wire.
braveheart123 and oneeyeblind like this.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 08:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,180
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2123
Glad you have resolved your Rythmik sub issue after such a long time. Good to know that long extension cable and hooking both of your receiver and sub to it are the problem. How is the FV now? Still think your S500 is better?
oneeyeblind likes this.
tvuong is online now  
post #7 of 19 Old 05-30-2015, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Glad you have resolved your Rythmik sub issue after such a long time. Good to know that long extension cable and hooking both of your receiver and sub to it are the problem. How is the FV now? Still think your S500 is better?
I can't say anything now till the time I lay new wiring and do A/B...

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 05-31-2015, 03:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Skytrooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baden, Pa.
Posts: 1,244
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 387
There are 3 20 amp circuits in my Family Room. I made sure power would never be a issue. AVR and TV are on one circuit, and both of my subs are on there own circuits. And a lot of receptacles.

TV - LG 65B7P OLED / Receiver - Yamaha RX-A1040 7.2 / Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83 / Turntable - Technics SL-3300
Game - Playstation 3 / Cable Box - Comcast X1 V4 4K / L&R Paradigm Studio 20 V3
Center - Paradigm CC-470 V3 / 4 Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15 V3 In Walls
Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12 / Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100
Skytrooper is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 05-31-2015, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
I wish I knew it earlier. This issue has really made me find a needle in haystack, which I finally did by accident; but @Lea st I did.

Sometimes the worst of problems have the simplest solutions. I wonder how I couldn't spot it before. Well sh?t happens

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Glad you have resolved your Rythmik sub issue after such a long time. Good to know that long extension cable and hooking both of your receiver and sub to it are the problem. How is the FV now? Still think your S500 is better?
So, I got 2 separate high quality 10 gauge lines installed today. This time around I hand picked the power cable and sockets. Both lines are directly and separately coming off 2 dedicated 20 amp breakers. Each is serving AVR and Rythmik separately.

To cut the story short; no fluttering problem from Rythmik anymore at painful levels in worst case scenario (FOTP, TIH, OHF, TF4, and alike movies). But, it cannot touch the SQ of PSB S500 for both movies and music IMO, period.

Depth digging .... yes Rythmik is hands down superior. But in audible frequency range, S500 is the reference for me. Fantastic engineering from PSB. It simply performs twice as big as its physical size

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:05 AM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post
So, I got 2 separate high quality 10 gauge lines installed today. This time around I hand picked the power cable and sockets. Both lines are directly and separately coming off 2 dedicated 20 amp breakers. Each is serving AVR and Rythmik separately.

To cut the story short; no fluttering problem from Rythmik anymore at painful levels in worst case scenario (FOTP, TIH, OHF, TF4, and alike movies). But, it cannot touch the SQ of PSB S500 for both movies and music IMO, period.

Depth digging .... yes Rythmik is hands down superior. But in audible frequency range, S500 is the reference for me. Fantastic engineering from PSB. It simply performs twice as big as its physical size
I find it very hard to believe the PSB outperforms the Rythmik in any way. Define sound quality in a sub....how do you determine it? What is your test material? Did you set each sub up for an A/B comparison on equal footing? For a guy who couldn't even figure out his extension cord was faulty....
its phillip and oneeyeblind like this.
lovinthehd is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Yeah I couldn't figure out, but nobody else did on this forum either. I raised this issue from day one and nobody could help me out with it, which is OK .

As regards Rythmik FV15HP Vs PSB S500, I have both in the same listening area and, this time, DEFINITELY all things are equal.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:25 AM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
You have the subs eq'd similarly? Level matched for comparison sake? Or you just like the PSB better?

I dunno, if I have an electrical apparatus that repeatedly doesn't work as it should (didn't you even have a replacement amp provided for by Rythmik?) and I don't try other electrical outlets it seems I hardly tried. Just sayin'....
lovinthehd is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I find it very hard to believe the PSB outperforms the Rythmik in any way. Define sound quality in a sub....how do you determine it? What is your test material? Did you set each sub up for an A/B comparison on equal footing?
Like I mentioned the movies in the post above and many more. PSB brings out more detail both in LFE and redirected bass. The subtle changes in bass tone are more pronounced with PSB. And it has endless dynamic range from dead silence to super loud with lightning speed.

For objective data, consult Canadian National Research Council where Paul tests his engineering results.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You have the subs eq'd similarly? Level matched for comparison sake? Or you just like the PSB better?
Same room, same spot, (this time) same power outlet, same FR till roughly 20Hz (Below that Rythmik steers away for obvious reasons), same 4 BFD filters (and I only use BFD for cutting peaks), same level (80dB).............................PSB S500 it is. Super rich details.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #16 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 10:55 AM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
There's a comprehensive test at CNRC of the PSB500? Somehow I doubt that if I bother searching I will find such. Now if you had home brewed measurements of each sub in operation....that might be interesting.

Dead silence to super loud with lightning speed? That's your definition of speed in a speaker? Not that it helps me understand what you mean by that. My subs also go from silence to loud any time that's called for and I doubt given the same spl levels at a given frequency any of the myriad subs I have get there much differently in terms of speed but I dunno....is there a specific test/metric for that to compare subs with? Don't think I've seen that test result on data-bass.com. Then again I've never seen a good consistent definition of what people mean by the term speed in talking about their gear....
oneeyeblind likes this.
lovinthehd is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 2,496
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Somehow I doubt that if I bother searching I will find such. Now if you had home brewed measurements of each sub in operation....that might be interesting.
Come off it man. If you can't appreciate somebody's product or comments, don't spit sarcasm. That's the problem with this forum; most of the people cannot stand the sight of turn key subs against the usual ID suspects.

WTF is home brewed measurements? If this is home brewed, what on earth is DIY approach then?
audiofan1 likes this.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
braveheart123 is offline  
post #18 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 11:30 AM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4791
That isn't sarcasm whatsoever. Do you have measurements for each sub in operation in your room? That's all I meant by home-brewed. I just find it hard to believe PSB is superior to the Rythmik in any appreciable metric....and at this point just like you, its only my opinion.
braveheart123 likes this.
lovinthehd is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 06-01-2015, 03:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Skytrooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baden, Pa.
Posts: 1,244
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post
So, I got 2 separate high quality 10 gauge lines installed today. This time around I hand picked the power cable and sockets. Both lines are directly and separately coming off 2 dedicated 20 amp breakers. Each is serving AVR and Rythmik separately.

To cut the story short; no fluttering problem from Rythmik anymore at painful levels in worst case scenario (FOTP, TIH, OHF, TF4, and alike movies). But, it cannot touch the SQ of PSB S500 for both movies and music IMO, period.

Depth digging .... yes Rythmik is hands down superior. But in audible frequency range, S500 is the reference for me. Fantastic engineering from PSB. It simply performs twice as big as its physical size
You will no longer have any power problems with 2 10 gauge cables. Wonder why the installer used 20 amp instead of 30 amp breakers?

TV - LG 65B7P OLED / Receiver - Yamaha RX-A1040 7.2 / Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83 / Turntable - Technics SL-3300
Game - Playstation 3 / Cable Box - Comcast X1 V4 4K / L&R Paradigm Studio 20 V3
Center - Paradigm CC-470 V3 / 4 Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15 V3 In Walls
Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12 / Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100
Skytrooper is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off