Thanks Fedex...your awesome. - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 138 Old 08-05-2015, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
And to clarify I did not buy this new from JTR but from another avs'r

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...eq-1500-a.html

I'm waiting to hear back from him, I called fedex and the seller has to make the claim on his end.
What a crappy deal...

Just a short rant on insurance vs. declared value coverage:
Neither UPS or FEDEX offer insurance. When something is insured and is lost or damaged, then the insured amount is paid, period. You do not have to prove who damaged the goods or how the goods were damaged. Under Declared Value Coverage, carriers will only pay claims in which THEY determine they were responsible for the loss or damage. Declared Value Coverage, protects the shipper for losses or damages to parcels up to the amount declared or the amount proven to be the item’s value, whichever is less. Claims for lost packages are usually honored provided you submit adequate proof of value. Damaged items, however, are subject to the carriers’ package inspection standards. The carriers will inspect the package to determine whether the damage was caused by improper packaging or improper handling by the carrier.

The shipment has to be "properly" packaged to meet the carriers’ specifications for shock, vibration and compression. This is the most common way carriers try to squirm out of honoring a claim especially if there is no physical damage to the package itself. Of course all of this is on the shipper.

Hopefully things will work out and you can get a refund without any problem...
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post #62 of 138 Old 08-05-2015, 01:42 PM
 
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As @Homebrew101 mentions, freight is an ancient business. There are relationships between the shipper, the carrier and the consignee intertwined with the actual transaction in the background. It may not meet today's instant gratification expectations of the US consumer, though. Some companies deal with it better than others, insurance companies themselves will take outs for improper procedure and that may be the shipper's problem, may be the carrier's problem. It can be a lot of fun.

Here's an example of ancient maritime freight law, and still experienced even with modern ocean freight.....called the general average...basically if the ocean vessel carrying your cargo has an accident, like running into another ship, it becomes the surviving cargo's prorated value against the vessel's damages that pays for the losses of the parties; sort of a everybody shares the burden thing. If on land it'd be like if the UPS guy got into an accident and each piece of cargo on board had to be assessed for value and the surviving cargo owner's assessed for a prorated portion of the damage to the truck. If you're not insured can be a whole lot of fun....

Bottom line is you either pack for the worst case scenario or you takes your chances with freight handling. It really doesn't matter in the Fedex/UPS world as to whether you're using freight service or small package service, often a lot of what happens is fairly standard in the freight business, about speed mostly, not careful handling.....at the lowest possible costs. There's also a big squeeze on for cheaper rates, and the field gets less competitive with monsters like UPS/Fedex dominating the scene, and more commodity-like all the time.

If like Chucky7 says about original complete packaging/palletization provided by JTR then I still say the shipper (the seller, not the carrier) is somewhat responsible:
The original packaging from JTR is only suitable to be shipped by freight (ie, on a pallet). There is no styrofoam corners. I don't think my Cap 1400 would have held up had it been shipped with regular FEDEX or UPS.
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post #63 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 10:55 AM
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can't believe others not post this ...

You just had the wrong delivery person who knows how to handle packages with some TLC
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post #64 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 11:08 AM
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about 5 years ago I was on the first order of Pro10s. When the trio arrived via UPS I picked them up and took them box by box inside. I noticed heavy things moving around.... the magnets were knocked clean off 2 of the 10" drivers and the other was barely hanging, cabinets all beat up, looked they dropped them out of the airplane.
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post #65 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 12:34 PM
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I actually remember a few years back hearing of a freight company accidentally driving a fork lift through a barrel.

The contents of that barrel? Pure Capsaicin. Yeah. That's right. The stuff that makes peppers hot.

They had to bring out haz-mat suits, and workers essentially got sprayed with the hottest mace ever. 16 million scoville units.
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post #66 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Tom, that is ugly...

There are several types of "markers" to help indicate if the box has been moved violently, both chemical and IC sensors (typically using MEMs), some with RFID tags. However, they are still not common for consumer carriers like UPS and FedEx, and AFAIK (not my field) not evenly applied across commercial carriers. The idea sounds good, but a few cents added to the cost of millions of packages adds up.
Hi Don,

I remember using those way back in the day on Ultra shipments. something like these

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

These days, we simply expect the worse. With every new product we have seek the advice of professionals that make inner boxing for a living. Our experience with fedex ground has been overwhelmingly positive. Freight with RL has been inconsistent but mostly positive as well.

We're thinking of wrapping all of our freight with a plywood shell as well.

Thanks for the heads up though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #67 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 08:20 PM
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At the dealership i work at, we get 5 to 6 deleveries a day. Fedex ground is by far the worst offender... the only company that has been good is fedex express and purolator. (Gorund and express are different entities)

Ive personally had the most issues with UPS by a Huge margin. So far in 8 years, 7 claims over 2000$. My last 2 were them delivering an empty box that was supposed to have a laptop in it and refusing to pay the claim, even though it was opened in front of a driver with video evidence opening it, and wrecking 2 forged rims 2 times in a row.... idiots. Took over a year to get my 1900$ for my laptop back and 6 months to get my custom rims..... needless to say i dont use ups ever anymore.
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post #68 of 138 Old 08-06-2015, 08:35 PM
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Hi Tom,

Yah, that is one product. IIRC it is chemical (vials break and mix when too much acceleration is applied, like when you drop or shake the box).

In my day job we use millions of dollars of test equipment. When we ship off-site, whether for testing elsewhere or for calibration or repair, we use heavy solid cases with several inches of foam, an inner box, then more foam/support. At times we crate the equipment, particularly when shipping overseas. That said, it is probably prohibitively costly for commercial subwoofers. A few hundred dollars to package a $250,000 instrument is not as big a deal compared to the competitive subwoofer market and a $1000'ish product.

What follows is speculative on my part. A plywood shell could certainly help, especially with the stacking issue, but I suspect a lot of the damage is done internally when the boxes are rolled, dropped, and so forth. The only way to reduce that is to eliminate any internal movement. You can wrap the boxes completely in foam to protect the cabinet from flexing, hopefully, but probably equally important is figuring a way to attach the amp (and all components on it) and driver so when the box is dropped off the end of a ramp or truck platform all the stress from the mass of the magnet or amp doesn't crack the cabinet. And components in the amp don't break the board or connections. Etc. I have no easy answers for that.

I would be curious, if you are willing to share, what are the most common shipping damages (failure mechanisms) that you have seen?

Thanks very much for your insights! - Don
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post #69 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Hi Tom,

Yah, that is one product. IIRC it is chemical (vials break and mix when too much acceleration is applied, like when you drop or shake the box).

In my day job we use millions of dollars of test equipment. When we ship off-site, whether for testing elsewhere or for calibration or repair, we use heavy solid cases with several inches of foam, an inner box, then more foam/support. At times we crate the equipment, particularly when shipping overseas. That said, it is probably prohibitively costly for commercial subwoofers. A few hundred dollars to package a $250,000 instrument is not as big a deal compared to the competitive subwoofer market and a $1000'ish product.

What follows is speculative on my part. A plywood shell could certainly help, especially with the stacking issue, but I suspect a lot of the damage is done internally when the boxes are rolled, dropped, and so forth. The only way to reduce that is to eliminate any internal movement. You can wrap the boxes completely in foam to protect the cabinet from flexing, hopefully, but probably equally important is figuring a way to attach the amp (and all components on it) and driver so when the box is dropped off the end of a ramp or truck platform all the stress from the mass of the magnet or amp doesn't crack the cabinet. And components in the amp don't break the board or connections. Etc. I have no easy answers for that.

I would be curious, if you are willing to share, what are the most common shipping damages (failure mechanisms) that you have seen?

Thanks very much for your insights! - Don
Hi Don,

With Fedex ground the damage rate is very low....I haven't even kept track. Well under 1%. We had several returns damaged this year but that was due to the customer not orienting the inner foam correctly when re-packing. We even had one with half the foam left out so the subwoofer was basically just flopping around---ouch. With such a small sample size its tough to point out the most common claims but I'd say it is usually something related to a blemish on the finish near an edge. We've had a couple with the amp controls dinged as well. In these cases I'm guessing the sub box was dropped from a good height onto a very small box(think 5x5x5 inch for example) that had no "give" in it. Basically being dropped onto a small cement block for example. In just the right area, at just the right angle, you might be able to ding the amp. But that is something like 2 times that I can remember over 3+ years now.

Freight, sort of a different animal. 99% of the time it gets there perfect or it is catastrophic. (like the pictures I posted earlier). If the shipment is rolled that shouldn't hurt it as we do use pretty thick inner foam even on the freight shipments. As long as they don't push it off the back of the truck(3-4 foot drop) rolling it shouldn't be a problem. Our problem with freight is the forks puncturing the boxing. If we can eliminate that, we should have next to zero issue. We're hoping a thin(3/8th for example) of plywood might get us there. Any feedback is certainly welcome.

EDIT- also another reason why we use a good bit of inner boxing foam on freight shipments is just the bouncing involved during shipment. Remember when we rode in a school bus over large pot holes...we would literally hover up over the seats? Imagine a pallet in the back of an 18 wheeler...banging up/down 100x and again.


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post #70 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 08:49 AM
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Here is a shot of the V3600i on the shipping pallet.

Also, the boxing dimensions are about 25x30x48 inches(without the pallet).

Actual product size is 20x25x44. So we have 2 inches of foam around each corner.

And the center of gravity is so low I don't see these being rolled unless they stacked it on something else and then just pushed it off from there.

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post #71 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 08:55 AM
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Dual T-18s stacked..

We strap the entire stack twice from each side then wrap it with a ton of that "stretch wrap" stuff.

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post #72 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 10:57 AM
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Hi Tom,

I'm a hairy-knuckled analog engineer, not a shipping expert, fair warning...

Rolling boxes does not apply when they are on a pallet (I really hope!) Dropping them off the truck or loading dock is far more likely (but hopefully rare).

Inner foam keeps everything moving together, about the best you can do.

A thin plywood layer won't stop a forklift but may slow it down enough for the operator to hear, see, and react before major damage is done. Maybe. If you've visited a routing center and see them spinning them around you know the usual problem is moving so fast (often in the middle of the night) that they don't quite get the forks down before stabbing the pallet. Or they pop them up just a little too high from the floor and catch the box instead of the pallet. Where the plywood is most helpful IME (but remember my first disclaimer) is providing enough side support/barrier that they move the box a bit while smashing the plywood instead of punching through the cardboard (knife through toast instead of soft bread). That is usually enough to wake them up and reset, preventing major damage. So, probably worthwhile, not a complete panacea.

HTH - Don

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post #73 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Don,

I remember using those way back in the day on Ultra shipments. something like these

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

These days, we simply expect the worse. With every new product we have seek the advice of professionals that make inner boxing for a living. Our experience with fedex ground has been overwhelmingly positive. Freight with RL has been inconsistent but mostly positive as well.

We're thinking of wrapping all of our freight with a plywood shell as well.

Thanks for the heads up though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
A few years ago when I was still working as an international forwarder/broker, we had to arrange some sensitive gear (chip fab gear) to come back to the US. If we put the tell-tales on the outside of the box and it was not cleared with the airline first, they would refuse to move it. They'd accept it for movement at a higher air freight rate, though. Basically they wanted to charge more if they were expected to handle the goods properly (in that the insurance company wouldn't have any overt proof of their handling). Out of Japan, where we ran into this several times with several carriers, the surcharge was up to a $1/kg more.
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post #74 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Here is a shot of the V3600i on the shipping pallet.

Also, the boxing dimensions are about 25x30x48 inches(without the pallet).

Actual product size is 20x25x44. So we have 2 inches of foam around each corner.

And the center of gravity is so low I don't see these being rolled unless they stacked it on something else and then just pushed it off from there.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Nice packaging. Out of curiosity, why the tray that your setting the box into?
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post #75 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
A few years ago when I was still working as an international forwarder/broker, we had to arrange some sensitive gear (chip fab gear) to come back to the US. If we put the tell-tales on the outside of the box and it was not cleared with the airline first, they would refuse to move it. They'd accept it for movement at a higher air freight rate, though. Basically they wanted to charge more if they were expected to handle the goods properly (in that the insurance company wouldn't have any overt proof of their handling). Out of Japan, where we ran into this several times with several carriers, the surcharge was up to a $1/kg more.
You know now that you mention this, I remember the exact same discussion with our freight guys when we tried to use these shock indicators. Every package showed them "broken" and when we questioned it they said it would require some sort of "white glove" service that was prohibitively expensive...I mean crazy high like $1000 per shipment west of the Rockies for example.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #76 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 03:09 PM
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Nice packaging. Out of curiosity, why the tray that your setting the box into?
You can remove the strapping and life the main boxing up and away. Then you just need to lif the subwoofer up a few inches to move it above the "tray" and off the pallet completely..

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post #77 of 138 Old 08-07-2015, 03:51 PM
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When my diffusers were shipped by freight they were placed on a pallet, then boxed in vertically with 1/8 plywood, then framed across the bottom and vertical corners with 2x4s with 1/8 inch plywood overlapping and connecting to 2x4s in between, no top, bad description, hope you can figure out what I mean. Diffusers were placed in a very thin plastic bag, then 1/8 inch packing foam bag. The diffusers arrived without a scratch, the 2x4s had a couple very small (searching for the bottom) fork marks but nothing serious. I think the selective but minimal use of 2x4s at common fork injury points (singles across bottom and upright corners) was great, the 1/8 inch plywood held things together while still being low weight. I wish now that I would have taken a picture of the whole shipping "box" but it has been disassembled with 2x4s reused. Let me know and I can take some pictures of what remains if you'd like...we all here at AVS have a vested intere$t (of time and money) in getting our gear and other peoples gear to places safely.

Cheers,
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post #78 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Snapped clean off
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post #79 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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post #80 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 04:56 PM
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Now where have I seen that before? The first time you take the driver out - in 2 pieces - it's quite a shock, eh?
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post #81 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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On a positive note I'll say this though, pretty sure you could let a grenade off inside of a JTR Captivator cabinet with next to no damage. Really well built cabinet.
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post #82 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Now where have I seen that before? The first time you take the driver out - in 2 pieces - it's quite a shock, eh?
Gross understatement sir
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post #83 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 06:09 PM
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On a positive note I'll say this though, pretty sure you could let a grenade off inside of a JTR Captivator cabinet with next to no damage. Really well built cabinet.
I would second that. Even with a 60+ pound projectile bouncing around on the inside there was surprisingly little collateral damage.
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post #84 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 06:20 PM
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I always get nervous shipping something expensive. If I don't have the original packaging, I tend to use Fed Ex Pack & Ship service. They say it's fully insured that way.......fortunately I haven't had to test wether they are good to their word yet.
I was sh*tting bricks when I had to ship a 100lb amp to California!
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post #85 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 06:50 PM
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Before this past month or so it had been a longtime since we had an issue. Packaging for non freight has 2" thick foam on all 6 sides within a 500 lbs rated, double coagulated cardboard box.
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post #86 of 138 Old 08-08-2015, 07:15 PM
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Damn shame that happened , but not surprising. Had the UPS guy "deliver" a power distribution board for my plasma by frisbeeing it over my gate about 25' . Yesterday was the best I've seen so far though. Our regular driver (so he knows the area) hit a big speed bump down the street at about 40mph , actually accelerated into it. I was walking my dog right there when I heard EVERYTHING bounce of the roof then come crashing down . He then just stopped in the middle of the street and spent over 30 minutes there, I assume further damaging everyones stuff. I have the important fragile stuff delivered to either the UPS store , or Fed Ex/Kinkos now so that I can refuse delivery if their drivers or warehouse guys decided that my new projector looks like it could bounce if you dropped it off the roof of the distribution center.
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post #87 of 138 Old 08-09-2015, 12:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by acras13 View Post
Damn shame that happened , but not surprising. Had the UPS guy "deliver" a power distribution board for my plasma by frisbeeing it over my gate about 25' . Yesterday was the best I've seen so far though. Our regular driver (so he knows the area) hit a big speed bump down the street at about 40mph , actually accelerated into it. I was walking my dog right there when I heard EVERYTHING bounce of the roof then come crashing down . He then just stopped in the middle of the street and spent over 30 minutes there, I assume further damaging everyones stuff. I have the important fragile stuff delivered to either the UPS store , or Fed Ex/Kinkos now so that I can refuse delivery if their drivers or warehouse guys decided that my new projector looks like it could bounce if you dropped it off the roof of the distribution center.
You contacted the area supervisor I hope to complain about the drivers? We have an awesome driver that services our town..but its all the handling prior to the last leg I worry about.
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post #88 of 138 Old 08-09-2015, 01:21 PM
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The top of the cast frame seems like is the weaker part of the frame and probably can't hold the weigh of the magnet and the arms.but no doubt that the box was abused and not properly handle.



Last edited by losservatore; 08-09-2015 at 01:41 PM.
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post #89 of 138 Old 08-09-2015, 01:37 PM
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Probably wasn't designed to be repeatedly dropped, or dropped once from a pretty good height... Many years ago a guy I worked with had a night job at UPS. He described a scene much like the pile-up in one of the earlier posts, except there was an overhead conveyor that was supposed to transfer between two belts for routing. One of the belts stopped but the feeder kept going for a bit and a bunch of boxes tumbled off from maybe 10' or 12' onto a concrete floor. I remember it was pretty high because he said the floor forklifts wouldn't go high enough to reach (8' max) and they had to get "the tall ones" from the warehouse area.

You want the driver's frame as open as possible so as not to affect sound waves and air flow on the back side.
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post #90 of 138 Old 08-09-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Probably wasn't designed to be repeatedly dropped, or dropped once from a pretty good height... Many years ago a guy I worked with had a night job at UPS. He described a scene much like the pile-up in one of the earlier posts, except there was an overhead conveyor that was supposed to transfer between two belts for routing. One of the belts stopped but the feeder kept going for a bit and a bunch of boxes tumbled off from maybe 10' or 12' onto a concrete floor. I remember it was pretty high because he said the floor forklifts wouldn't go high enough to reach (8' max) and they had to get "the tall ones" from the warehouse area.

You want the driver's frame as open as possible so as not to affect sound waves and air flow on the back side.
Not sure but from what I know all the heavy stuff can't be place on the belt and they are supposed to use two people to take the box out of the truck then is placed on a hand trolley or
a manual hand forklift then it goes directly to the destination truck.


Probably like always the workers didn't followed the instructions.

Last edited by losservatore; 08-09-2015 at 01:57 PM.
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