Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 1662 Old 08-18-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
Oh well... if that's the best approach, I'll cave...

*Should I use HDMI/ASIO4ALL or rather an analog signal from the headphone jack?

*What sound setting(s) should I use on the AVR: Stereo, Direct, any of the Dolby and/or Matrix settings? I assume that I somehow need to deactivate any Audyssey room corrections, correct?

____
Axel
You're asking very basic questions. Please first learn how your AVR works. Then continue to read about REW. Here's a good start: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html
You'll find a very detailed description on how to use MSO at https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer.../contents.html

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post #1202 of 1662 Old 09-02-2018, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You're asking very basic questions. Please first learn how your AVR works. Then continue to read about REW. Here's a good start: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html
You'll find a very detailed description on how to use MSO at https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer.../contents.html
Thanks markus;

I have went through the documentations and I think I made good progress. Still need a bit of guidance though:

I had MSO generate filter settings for my (4) subs: 1 Gain Block, 1 Delay Block and 6 Parametric EQ / each. (I tried numerous iterations, playing around with the MSO parameters until I ended up with seemingly 'flat' results that I now want to try out.)

In the miniDSP app, I was able to import the biquad parameters. I then entered the Gain settings I found in the Filter Report manually for each channel, but then got stuck with the Delay settings: the miniDSP only allows for delays between 0...7.5 ms. I had therefore set the limits in the MSO Application Options for Delay to Min 0 ms and Max 7 ms, expecting the calculations would not exceed that range. However, the results are between +0.15 and -15.9 ms, i.e. outside the permissible range.
What am I doing wrong?

(Another question: is adding a negative delay the same as inverting the phase?)

Thanks!
____
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post #1203 of 1662 Old 09-02-2018, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
the miniDSP only allows for delays between 0...7.5 ms.
If you have another input/output available, you can loopback the output of one channel into another to double the available delay. That's actually the only thing I use my miniDSP for (for now ).

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post #1204 of 1662 Old 09-02-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
If you have another input/output available, you can loopback the output of one channel into another to double the available delay. That's actually the only thing I use my miniDSP for (for now ).

Michael
Interesting idea. Unfortunately, I am out of extra channels. That said, I might be able to use the built-in EQ of the (2) SVS subs: these (2) subs happen to be on the (2) channels with the highest delays (-15.5ms and -15.9ms). Now they are 'negative' delays. The SVS EQ only allows for 'positive' delays. How can I make this work? Phase switch?

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post #1205 of 1662 Old 09-03-2018, 03:01 AM
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A delay is a delay. They can't possibly make the sound arrive sooner, so positive and negative for delay doesn't make any sense.
Best way? Probably another $100 for another miniDSP. You can certainly try changing the phase, but for reasons I don't understand even though I've read through them on the REW thread, that's not the same and doesn't usually work.
Michael

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post #1206 of 1662 Old 09-03-2018, 04:13 AM
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Thanks for your reply, Michael.

In the meantime, I found out why the limit tightening for Delay had not worked. I had changed the range in the default settings after I had added the filters already. It seems to work only for filters that are added afterwards (). So I had to go into each individually and change it there.

Before I add more hardware to the signal path, I'd like to try if I can get decent results with that I have already. I might add some SVS-EQ-ing to see if this helps.

____
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post #1207 of 1662 Old 09-12-2018, 01:35 PM
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@Axel You can use variable phase to align subs but you must measure the response, the amps with a 0/180 switch are pretty useless. You can also use delay in a minidsp. You'll need EQ to fix any peaks and shape a house curve anyways. Get the minidsp HD not the standard as the standard is limited to only 7ms of delay. The procedure to align subs isn't all that difficult but it can be tedious.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...etup-info.html

There's a compilation on how it's done. All the good stuff is in post 1.
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post #1208 of 1662 Old 09-12-2018, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
@Axel You can use variable phase to align subs but you must measure the response, the amps with a 0/180 switch are pretty useless. You can also use delay in a minidsp. You'll need EQ to fix any peaks and shape a house curve anyways. Get the minidsp HD not the standard as the standard is limited to only 7ms of delay. The procedure to align subs isn't all that difficult but it can be tedious.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...etup-info.html

There's a compilation on how it's done. All the good stuff is in post 1.
Thanks for the links. Interesting and helpful stuff!

I am not sure yet that I want to trade my miniDSP for an HD. I have the balanced kit, nicely integrated in a rack mounted case. I checked the miniDSP website but I did not not see a version of the HD version as a balanced kit.

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post #1209 of 1662 Old 09-13-2018, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
Thanks for the links. Interesting and helpful stuff!

I am not sure yet that I want to trade my miniDSP for an HD. I have the balanced kit, nicely integrated in a rack mounted case. I checked the miniDSP website but I did not not see a version of the HD version as a balanced kit.

____
Axel
You're welcome.

I also have the 2x4 balanced and I have a 2x4HD. If your subs can be aligned with it's limited delay of the balanced it's fine. But you'd be lucky to not need more . It also doesn't have the resolution of the HD which really shines when loading REW target files .

Unless you have a long run that picks up noise the balanced doesn't offer any advantages.

If you've confirmed the balanced is enough to align your subs then rock on!

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post #1210 of 1662 Old 09-14-2018, 05:43 PM
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I got some what seems to me relatively decent measurement results with my current setup. Next, I'd like to put them through its paces for a while to hear how they actually sound. So I might be OK with what I have.

____
Axel
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post #1211 of 1662 Old 09-15-2018, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Unless you have a long run that picks up noise the balanced doesn't offer any advantages.
Unfortunately, there is a misunderstanding "out there" that a balanced signal = higher audio quality. The associated misunderstanding is that the balanced cable is part of the reason for the higher quality. That indeed may be the case at the downstream end of the cable after a l-o-n-g run and/or when in a high RF/EMI environment, but absent those conditions there ain't a lick o' difference. Technically - and actually - the signal isn't "better"; it just hasn't been deteriorated from it's original.
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post #1212 of 1662 Old 09-15-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
In the meantime, I found out why the limit tightening for Delay had not worked. I had changed the range in the default settings after I had added the filters already. It seems to work only for filters that are added afterwards (). So I had to go into each individually and change it there.
In the documentation, The Two Ways of Specifying Filter Parameter Limits discusses this issue.
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post #1213 of 1662 Old 09-27-2018, 01:32 PM
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Will MSO work well with just two full-range speakers and a single sub?


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post #1214 of 1662 Old 09-27-2018, 02:14 PM
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Will MSO work well with just two full-range speakers and a single sub?
Yes, it will “work” but likely not improve anything. I have (only) two subs and was told MSO might not improve my bass much. The more subs one has, the more improvement over baseline performance there will be.

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post #1215 of 1662 Old 09-27-2018, 02:26 PM
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Yes, it will “work” but likely not improve anything. I have (only) two subs and was told MSO might not improve my bass much. The more subs one has, the more improvement over baseline performance there will be.

Jeff
Oh. I was hoping that as the left / right speakers go low (on-board active subs) the addition of a single sub would be enough for MSO to provide a noticeable optimization.
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post #1216 of 1662 Old 09-28-2018, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Zydeco67 View Post

Oh. I was hoping that as the left / right speakers go low (on-board active subs) the addition of a single sub would be enough for MSO to provide a noticeable optimization.
Try it, it’s free. 🙂

As I understand it, though, MSO manipulates distance and EQ of subs to achieve results. It will not be able to make those adjustments with your integrated subs.

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post #1217 of 1662 Old 10-16-2018, 03:47 PM
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Hi, is it possible to use MSO for integration of just 1 sub with my mains L/R? I have a minidsp 2x4HD. Or this is only built for using multiple sub?

If yes, do I just need to apply the EQ to my sub in minidsp, there is no need to adjust the mains?

Thanks.
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post #1218 of 1662 Old 10-17-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
Hi, is it possible to use MSO for integration of just 1 sub with my mains L/R? I have a minidsp 2x4HD. Or this is only built for using multiple sub?

If yes, do I just need to apply the EQ to my sub in minidsp, there is no need to adjust the mains?

Thanks.
Short answer, YES, and YES.

Although the primary function of MSO is to integrate multi-subs into a single channel, it can also be used to find the perfect splice between multi mains and a single sub.
You might find that giving MSO control of gains and delays is all that is required - but some gentle PEQ can also be employed to improve the transition - if required.
If your initial sub response is less than ideal, them MSO can be used to generate miniDSP friendly PEQs.
Make sure you follow all the guidelines for taking measurements with timing references - and then feed in the data and run some optimisations to get a feel for what's possible.
Regards, Mike.
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Short answer, YES, and YES.

Although the primary function of MSO is to integrate multi-subs into a single channel, it can also be used to find the perfect splice between multi mains and a single sub.
You might find that giving MSO control of gains and delays is all that is required - but some gentle PEQ can also be employed to improve the transition - if required.
If your initial sub response is less than ideal, them MSO can be used to generate miniDSP friendly PEQs.
Make sure you follow all the guidelines for taking measurements with timing references - and then feed in the data and run some optimisations to get a feel for what's possible.
Regards, Mike.
This is excellent. Thanks.
I have just tried today and it really works.

What's the recommended Max PEQ Q/gain value ? The default 15db seems too high , and not sure about Q either.

Thanks!

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post #1220 of 1662 Old 10-18-2018, 03:55 PM
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This is excellent. Thanks.
I have just tried today and it really works.

What's the recommended Max PEQ Q/gain value ? The default 15db seems too high , and not sure about Q either.

Thanks!

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This comes down to personal preference, but I limit cuts to 6dB, Q between 2 and 10 - and make sure you set the center frequency limits to cover your optimisation limits.
The number of PEQs to apply comes from starting small - seeing what is achieved - then increasing if it makes real improvements, but remember the saying "less is more" - you should not throw everything at trying to get a perfectly flat response - it could end up sounding false - just smooth the response over a wider area.
Regards, Mike.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post
This comes down to personal preference, but I limit cuts to 6dB, Q between 2 and 10 - and make sure you set the center frequency limits to cover your optimisation limits.
The number of PEQs to apply comes from starting small - seeing what is achieved - then increasing if it makes real improvements, but remember the saying "less is more" - you should not throw everything at trying to get a perfectly flat response - it could end up sounding false - just smooth the response over a wider area.
Regards, Mike.
Thanks Mike


I am curious on the center frequency.
Say if I want to EQ range between 20-120hz, should I always set center frequency to be 70hz?

What's the effect of this setting v.s. the lower/upper range?

Thanks,
Dick


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post #1222 of 1662 Old 10-19-2018, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
Thanks Mike


I am curious on the center frequency.
Say if I want to EQ range between 20-120hz, should I always set center frequency to be 70hz?

What's the effect of this setting v.s. the lower/upper range?

Thanks,
Dick


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Sorry, I wasn’t clear, make sure the center frequencies cover the same range as the optimisation, so for the range 20-120 use centers that can extend from 20-120 as well. I’ve seen people optimise from 10-200, but had PEQ that could only be set from 40-100??.?.?.??
Regards, Mike
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post #1223 of 1662 Old 10-19-2018, 07:24 AM
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I've added some information to the help file about setting PEQ center frequency limits. There's a new .CHM file as well.
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post #1224 of 1662 Old 10-19-2018, 07:31 AM
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I've added some information to the help file about setting PEQ center frequency limits. There's a new .CHM file as well.
Thank you so much !!

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post #1225 of 1662 Old 10-20-2018, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Made some modifications to my living room. New floor and new doors to the "garden". Also made some modifications to my front subs: new baffles, new rear and upgraded the bracing. My mains were also modified with new woofers (Dayton rs-270) and new waveguides for dome tweeters (Dayton rst-28). So a new multi sub optimizer session was needed

Old picture of setup


The responses of the 4 subs at the main listening position


The response of the right front sub at the four listening positions



After optimization


Subs and mains


Im pleased with the result. Especially getting the 100-200Hz range right, took some time. Im still a very big fan of MSO! It maybe a time consuming process, but in the end enough subs with dsp + mso and effort always works out .
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post #1226 of 1662 Old 10-20-2018, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag768 View Post
Made some modifications to my living room. New floor and new doors to the "garden". Also made some modifications to my front subs: new baffles, new rear and upgraded the bracing. My mains were also modified with new woofers (Dayton rs-270) and new waveguides for dome tweeters (Dayton rst-28). So a new multi sub optimizer session was needed

Old picture of setup


The responses of the 4 subs at the main listening position


The response of the right front sub at the four listening positions



After optimization


Subs and mains


Im pleased with the result. Especially getting the 100-200Hz range right, took some time. Im still a very big fan of MSO! It maybe a time consuming process, but in the end enough subs with dsp + mso and effort always works out .
What's cause the dip around 80hz of the sub SPL? Even 4 subs using MSO is not able to fill the dip ?

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post #1227 of 1662 Old 10-20-2018, 09:02 AM
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Im pleased with the result. Especially getting the 100-200Hz range right, took some time. Im still a very big fan of MSO! It maybe a time consuming process, but in the end enough subs with dsp + mso and effort always works out .
How on earth did you make that (apparently) homemade waveguide? Amazing work.
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post #1228 of 1662 Old 10-20-2018, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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How on earth did you make that (apparently) homemade waveguide? Amazing work.
Not that hard. Im keen on old skool methods . No fancy CNC or 3d printing for me. For the waveguides i used plaster and a simple 2d mold of the waveguide profile which is fixed in the center and rotates resulting in a round waveguide. After some sanding and filler for plaster, it turns out smooth, actually smoother than in the picture. More info in the DIY audio threads: waveguides and the whole project.
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post #1229 of 1662 Old 10-20-2018, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jag768 View Post
After optimization


Im pleased with the result. Especially getting the 100-200Hz range right, took some time. Im still a very big fan of MSO! It maybe a time consuming process, but in the end enough subs with dsp + mso and effort always works out .
How many filters did you apply? What target did you set? Your Before readings are averaging out to 125dB but your final shows 75dB.
Thx.
harrisu is offline  
post #1230 of 1662 Old 10-21-2018, 05:00 PM
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Hi,

Let's say u have 2 subwoofers, using minidsp 2x4HD, which is capable to have 10PEQ on each input and output channel.

I have follow the below steps to integrate the subs to my system, please let me know if it is correct or needs any improvement?


- Turn off all Eq from all devices, including minidsp AMP subwoofer knobs etc...
- set distances of speakrs and Sub to be the same in AMP(so I can adjust from dsp later)
- Set delay/gain to 0 in DSP
- use REW measure All subs/sub1/sub2 with 5 positions( I have a 2 seats sofa only ), with timing reference to left speaker, and output set to 4 (using ASIO4All, output 4 is LFE)
- do NOT do any adjustment in REW, export all measure as txt
- import Sub1/Sub2 measurement in MSO
- group the 5 positions accordingly, and see if it matches the All sub graph in REW
- add gain/delay/PEQ blocks to each sub filter channel , default the min/Max frequency to 20-120hz
( Why I can only add 1 delay block in a subwoofer but not both?)
( How many PEQ filter should I add in each channel? 10 is better?)
- set criteria etc....
- optimize
- export the result and apply to Minidsp OUTPUT channel
- measure All sub again see if it is close to expectation.

Now, integrate All sub with speakers (center channel for AV let's say). I say Subwoofer here means it is a combined result of both SUB after the first round MSO integration.

- set crossover in AMP to 80hz ( say I like 80hz)
- mute SUB in minidsp , measure output 3(CC) with 5 positions
- unmute SUB , mute CC, measure output 3(CC) with 5 positions
- in MSO, choose Main+Sub config
- import all measurements (5 positions for 1 CC, and 5 for 1 Sub
- optimize
- export the result
- import to Minidsp INPUT PEQ

last, re-measure everything again and verify the result, and enjoy my movie.


Am I correct or missing any steps?
How could I do it better ?

Thanks!!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Dick_Lai is offline  
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