Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 1659 Old 05-20-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
I am thinking that the delay applied is constant among frequencies, while phase shift is not.
What is the pros and cons of using one v.s. the others.
There's no general rule for this, except that I'd say whichever one measures better is preferable.

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Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
The only reason behind this is if I am not using minidsp, no EQ or delay , is it still possible to use MSO to find the best volume & phase setting for sub integration .

FYI I have minidsp and I am using it with MSO happily. This question is just for my curiosity.
In general, MSO shouldn't be used in connection with analog filters (like the phase knob on the back of the sub). This is not because there's anything wrong with analog filters, it's just that MSO has no way of "knowing" the relationship between the filter's knob setting and its frequency or phase response.

MSO could be used to find the best AVR sub trim and AVR sub distance settings for sub integration, but that would be kind of overkill.
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post #1592 of 1659 Old 05-20-2019, 10:52 AM
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Hi Andy, Just wanted to give you a huge thanks for developing MSO and your continuing support. It made a huge difference with my setup. I may have missed it but does anyone know if he accepts donations and if so possibly throwing a link up?
Thanks for your comments. I don't have any donation system set up. However, if there are any graphics artists out there who have found MSO useful, I'm in need of an icon for the program. What I'd be looking for is an SVG file with a square aspect ratio that I could use to generate different sized bitmaps (as small as 16x16) for the program's icons and the website's favicon. I have no artistic ability, and whenever I try to make one, I spend lots of time and it still looks terrible.
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post #1593 of 1659 Old 05-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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Do you think svgrepo can help?

https://www.svgrepo.com/svg/198289/woofer-subwoofer



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post #1594 of 1659 Old 05-20-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Thanks for your comments. I don't have any donation system set up. However, if there are any graphics artists out there who have found MSO useful, I'm in need of an icon for the program. What I'd be looking for is an SVG file with a square aspect ratio that I could use to generate different sized bitmaps (as small as 16x16) for the program's icons and the website's favicon. I have no artistic ability, and whenever I try to make one, I spend lots of time and it still looks terrible.
I created something quickly in Photoshop but then realized you wanted an SVG and Photoshop can't export the SVG the way I drew it and with the text. And not sure how well this would even work at 16x16. Oh well. If you want me to create you various sizes, just let me know. Otherwise maybe someone with Illustrator or similar can come up with something better since I'm not that artistic.
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post #1595 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
There's no general rule for this, except that I'd say whichever one measures better is preferable.







In general, MSO shouldn't be used in connection with analog filters (like the phase knob on the back of the sub). This is not because there's anything wrong with analog filters, it's just that MSO has no way of "knowing" the relationship between the filter's knob setting and its frequency or phase response.



MSO could be used to find the best AVR sub trim and AVR sub distance settings for sub integration, but that would be kind of overkill.
Thank you Andy.

Say for example, if I set delay =0 , but set phase = 90, would that impact the time that the sound wave arrives the MLP?

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post #1596 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 06:57 AM
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Say for example, if I set delay =0 , but set phase = 90, would that impact the time that the sound wave arrives the MLP?
Not in the strict sense of the term. An ideal delay will take an impulse (very short pulse), and shift it in time without changing its shape. A typical all-pass filter (like the sub phase control) will alter the shape of the impulse considerably, giving an output that has an initial "blip" followed by a "hangover" that takes time to decay to zero. The initial "blip", though, won't be shifted in time relative to the input pulse.
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post #1597 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Not in the strict sense of the term. An ideal delay will take an impulse (very short pulse), and shift it in time without changing its shape. A typical all-pass filter (like the sub phase control) will alter the shape of the impulse considerably, giving an output that has an initial "blip" followed by a "hangover" that takes time to decay to zero. The initial "blip", though, won't be shifted in time relative to the input pulse.
Sorry for my ignorance.
This is really difficult for me to understand.
Would there be any site for educational purposes on this topic? I am eager to learn .

Thank you!!

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post #1598 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 09:17 AM
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What “frequency response error RMS value” is considered good enough when optimizing a MSO Sub-only Configuration with “Flat as Possible without additional Global EQ” ?

I have done several optimizations using 3 PEQs, 4 PEQs and then 5 PEQs along with a Gain, & N-1 delay blocks on each of the 4 sub channels. My Results are seem quite flat, flatter as more PEQs are added. Are 3 PEQs good enough? Optimizer out shows the following after 90 to 120 minutes run time.
3 PEQs – Frequency Response Error .79 RMS
4 PEQs – Frequency Repose Error .69 RMS
5 PEQs - Frequency Repose Error .56 RMS


My setup is:
- Small room 22’length x 10’ width x 8’high, closed room
- 4 dissimilar subs (3 x12” 1x8”) located ¼ on front & rear 10’ walls
- Seating is ¼ from rear wall, 3 Listening Positions on a sofa with Group weighting 1.0,1.0,1.0 .
- PEQs (min -15, max +1 boost), Q limits 2 =>25), Optimizing from 20hz=>120hz.
- Optimizer Constraints (-16 db, +1 db), so no stacking of PEQs
- Using a Minidsp 2x4 for EQ.
- Verified with REW that MSO’s graphing predictions match when loaded into the Minidsp.


Thanks, Tim

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post #1599 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
This is really difficult for me to understand.
Would there be any site for educational purposes on this topic? I am eager to learn .
The only thing I can think of is to look at this page of the REW manual, starting with the topic, "Systems and Transfer Functions".
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post #1600 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by WingmanHD View Post
What “frequency response error RMS value” is considered good enough when optimizing a MSO Sub-only Configuration with “Flat as Possible without additional Global EQ” ?

I have done several optimizations using 3 PEQs, 4 PEQs and then 5 PEQs along with a Gain, & N-1 delay blocks on each of the 4 sub channels. My Results are seem quite flat, flatter as more PEQs are added. Are 3 PEQs good enough? Optimizer out shows the following after 90 to 120 minutes run time.
3 PEQs – Frequency Response Error .79 RMS
4 PEQs – Frequency Repose Error .69 RMS
5 PEQs - Frequency Repose Error .56 RMS
Those numbers are all very good. I'd tend toward using as few PEQs as possible to get the desired result, but it's up to you.
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post #1601 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingmanHD View Post
What “frequency response error RMS value” is considered good enough when optimizing a MSO Sub-only Configuration with “Flat as Possible without additional Global EQ” ?

I have done several optimizations using 3 PEQs, 4 PEQs and then 5 PEQs along with a Gain, & N-1 delay blocks on each of the 4 sub channels. My Results are seem quite flat, flatter as more PEQs are added. Are 3 PEQs good enough? Optimizer out shows the following after 90 to 120 minutes run time.
3 PEQs – Frequency Response Error .79 RMS
4 PEQs – Frequency Repose Error .69 RMS
5 PEQs - Frequency Repose Error .56 RMS


My setup is:
- Small room 22’length x 10’ width x 8’high, closed room
- 4 dissimilar subs (3 x12” 1x8”) located ¼ on front & rear 10’ walls
- Seating is ¼ from rear wall, 3 Listening Positions on a sofa with Group weighting 1.0,1.0,1.0 .
- PEQs (min -15, max +1 boost), Q limits 2 =>25), Optimizing from 20hz=>120hz.
- Optimizer Constraints (-16 db, +1 db), so no stacking of PEQs
- Using a Minidsp 2x4 for EQ.
- Verified with REW that MSO’s graphing predictions match when loaded into the Minidsp.


Thanks, Tim
How flat is flat? The scale can sometimes contribute to flat when not very flat or if zoomed in, it might seem like the curve is worse than it is. So is it +/-2 dB or +/- 4 dB, etc?

Second, if you can have someone else switch configs for you, you could do a blind comparison of say 3 PEQs vs 5 PEQs. Since the software may not allow you to “switch” to the same configuration, which is necessary to have a truly random double blind, you may want to put, assuming you have 4 presets, 3 PEQs on 2 of the presets and then 5 PEQs on 2 of the presets. Then have your friend write down the changes as they do them and you write down which you preferred. If you can’t reliably pick the one with more PEQs, you’ve found your limit and should go with the lesser number of PEQs.

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post #1602 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 01:49 PM
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Thanks for your comments. I don't have any donation system set up. However, if there are any graphics artists out there who have found MSO useful, I'm in need of an icon for the program. What I'd be looking for is an SVG file with a square aspect ratio that I could use to generate different sized bitmaps (as small as 16x16) for the program's icons and the website's favicon. I have no artistic ability, and whenever I try to make one, I spend lots of time and it still looks terrible.
I'm certainly not a graphic designer but I have inkscape installed from a project I had to do a while back. I gave it a quick shot if you like it cool, if not no worries. I was going to send this to you in a PM but I can't figure it out or maybe I don't have enough posts yet.




link to files
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post #1603 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 02:27 PM
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I'm certainly not a graphic designer but I have inkscape installed from a project I had to do a while back. I gave it a quick shot if you like it cool, if not no worries. I was going to send this to you in a PM but I can't figure it out or maybe I don't have enough posts yet.
Thanks! That is really cool! I have Inkscape as well, so having the SVG file is perfect. Now I have to figure out the sizes I need.

I have PMs turned off because a lot of people were asking me MSO questions that should be asked in the forum. I'd rather that other people be able to (hopefully) benefit from the answers.

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post #1604 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 02:34 PM
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Thanks! That is really cool! I have Inkscape as well, so having the SVG file is perfect. Now I have to figure out the sizes I need.

I have PMs turned off because a lot of people were asking me MSO questions that should be asked in the forum, so that other people can (hopefully) benefit from the answers.

Good deal. I have everything grouped together in the svg so if you want to tweek it just go to object>ungroup. I did create the most common file sizes as png and included them in the zip. I think it was 256, 48, 32, and 16. If your not looking to tweak it you can just use the large png's and resize as needed from those. I just use pixlr.com for resizing.

Edit: Added a couple different versions to the zip. Just changing the size of the M.
BTW, thanks again for creating MSO, I'm so happy with how my system sounds now.

v1 v2 v3
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Those numbers are all very good. I'd tend toward using as few PEQs as possible to get the desired result, but it's up to you.
Thanks Andy, I will listen with 5 PEQs and work my way down to 4 & 3 PEQ configs. Also thanks for all the support and incite on the forum. You have written an amazing program, appreciate the updated features you have been providing in the recent Versions.


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How flat is flat? The scale can sometimes contribute to flat when not very flat or if zoomed in, it might seem like the curve is worse than it is. So is it +/-2 dB or +/- 4 dB, etc?

Second, if you can have someone else switch configs for you, you could do a blind comparison of say 3 PEQs vs 5 PEQs. Since the software may not allow you to “switch” to the same configuration, which is necessary to have a truly random double blind, you may want to put, assuming you have 4 presets, 3 PEQs on 2 of the presets and then 5 PEQs on 2 of the presets. Then have your friend write down the changes as they do them and you write down which you preferred. If you can’t reliably pick the one with more PEQs, you’ve found your limit and should go with the lesser number of PEQs.
Dgage,
Here is graph from MSO with different 3,4 & 5 PEQs configs, all very close in plus & minus db range. Will do some blind testing if the SO will a bilge me. I have the MSO values saved in Minidsp xml files, just me need tweak SW distance and Volumes with each reload/test.
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Good deal. I have everything grouped together in the svg so if you want to tweek it just go to object>ungroup. I did create the most common file sizes as png and included them in the zip. I think it was 256, 48, 32, and 16. If your not looking to tweak it you can just use the large png's and resize as needed from those. I just use pixlr.com for resizing.

Shrunk the M a little and added those to the zip in the previous link.


Part of me thinks the O should be a speaker cone (though that would only work if it were perfectly round)
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post #1607 of 1659 Old 05-21-2019, 06:06 PM
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Part of me thinks the O should be a speaker cone (though that would only work if it were perfectly round)
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Yeah something like that, though I think I prefer the v2 M as it gives it a nice border


Maybe add a small drop shadow to the S and O to make them pop a bit more
EDIT: Something like this? i like it. Added these to the zip I don't want to hijack the thread anymore then I already have. If anyone wants to change anything, inkscapes a cool program please feel free to DL the zip and have at it.


v4 v5 v6
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Yeah something like that, though I think I prefer the v2 M as it gives it a nice border


Maybe add a small drop shadow to the S and O to make them pop a bit more
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post #1609 of 1659 Old 05-22-2019, 07:57 AM
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A newbie question. How is MSO different than Audyssey sub EQ? Do I need both?
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post #1610 of 1659 Old 05-22-2019, 11:43 AM
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A newbie question. How is MSO different than Audyssey sub EQ? Do I need both?
Sanjay wrote a good description of what subwoofer optimization is all about in another thread. Also, the first page of the MSO tutorial goes into more detail.
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post #1611 of 1659 Old 05-22-2019, 01:23 PM
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Sanjay wrote a good description of what subwoofer optimization is all about in another thread. Also, the first page of the MSO tutorial goes into more detail.
Thanks Sanjay. The Audyssey XT 32 in Denon AVR x3500 is capable of EQing two subs independently. I am hoping that it means different delays, gains and EQs applied to each sub. Is that similar to what MSO can do with two subs?
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post #1612 of 1659 Old 05-22-2019, 01:34 PM
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Audyssey XT 32 in Denon AVR x3500 is capable of EQing two subs independently. I am hoping that it means different delays, gains and EQs applied to each sub.
Delays & gains are independent for each sub, but EQ is applied to both subs (Audyssey EQ's their interaction, since that's what you'll be hearing).
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Is that similar to what MSO can do with two subs?
Subwoofer optimization measures individual sub response and then EQs each sub independently to achieve a specific interaction when combined. Audyssey measures the interaction of the two subs and then EQs them together.
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Delays & gains are independent for each sub, but EQ is applied to both subs (Audyssey EQ's their interaction, since that's what you'll be hearing). Subwoofer optimization measures individual sub response and then EQs each sub independently to achieve a specific interaction when combined. Audyssey measures the interaction of the two subs and then EQs them together.
Thanks.
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Delays & gains are independent for each sub, but EQ is applied to both subs (Audyssey EQ's their interaction, since that's what you'll be hearing). Subwoofer optimization measures individual sub response and then EQs each sub independently to achieve a specific interaction when combined. Audyssey measures the interaction of the two subs and then EQs them together.
Thank you Sanjay. I understand now that EQ is applied to both subs collectively and not individually.

Is this the same for the rest of the speakers (5 or 7 or 9)? That is that the EQ is not applied individually for each speaker?
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Is this the same for the rest of the speakers (5 or 7 or 9)?
No, because each speaker gets a unique signal. By comparison, both subwoofer outputs have the same signal.

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post #1616 of 1659 Old 05-29-2019, 09:48 AM
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@AV_mike asked me about this back in November of 2015:

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Have you considered multi-threading support to increase the computation speed? Looking at Task Manager, it appears that only one main thread is operating.
I finally got my act together and figured out how to do this. There is a new version, 1.35, up now that does optimization in multiple threads. You should see a significant speed improvement with CPUs having multiple cores and/or "hyper-threading" support. MSO will use the same number of threads for optimization as logical CPU cores reported by the OS, up to a maximum of 16.

Edit: The graphs don't update any more often than they did before, since that's limited by a timer to a maximum of 4 frames/sec to keep the UI from consuming too much CPU. But you'll see the RMS error drop faster, and, at least at the beginning, you'll also see a lot less "Working..." messages in between improvements to the RMS error.
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@AV_mike asked me about this back in November of 2015:



I finally got my act together and figured out how to do this. There is a new version, 1.35, up now that does optimization in multiple threads. You should see a significant speed improvement with CPUs having multiple cores and/or "hyper-threading" support. MSO will use the same number of threads for optimization as logical CPU cores reported by the OS, up to a maximum of 16.

Edit: The graphs don't update any more often than they did before, since that's limited by a timer to a maximum of 4 frames/sec to keep the UI from consuming too much CPU. But you'll see the RMS error drop faster, and, at least at the beginning, you'll also see a lot less "Working..." messages in between improvements to the RMS error.

Excellent news! Although the site seems to point to v1.34? Or do I need to refresh my cache or something?

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post #1618 of 1659 Old 05-29-2019, 10:38 AM
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Excellent news! Although the site seems to point to v1.34? Or do I need to refresh my cache or something?
Thanks for catching that. The new one is up now. You may still need to clear your cache if the old one still gets downloaded.
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post #1619 of 1659 Old 05-29-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
@AV_mike asked me about this back in November of 2015:

I finally got my act together and figured out how to do this. There is a new version, 1.35, up now that does optimization in multiple threads. You should see a significant speed improvement with CPUs having multiple cores and/or "hyper-threading" support. MSO will use the same number of threads for optimization as logical CPU cores reported by the OS, up to a maximum of 16.

Edit: The graphs don't update any more often than they did before, since that's limited by a timer to a maximum of 4 frames/sec to keep the UI from consuming too much CPU. But you'll see the RMS error drop faster, and, at least at the beginning, you'll also see a lot less "Working..." messages in between improvements to the RMS error.
Inspired by your new logo, perhaps?
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post #1620 of 1659 Old 05-29-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Thanks for catching that. The new one is up now. You may still need to clear your cache if the old one still gets downloaded.

Yeah had to clear my cache, got it now
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