Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 1761 Old 11-08-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankC2D View Post
Had a bit of a gain issue but found a work around. The MSO report suggested a trim setting in the AVR of 14dB, unfortunately the maximum adjustment is 10dB. I added a gain block at the front of my DSP solution, but miniDSP only allows attenuation, so I use the first common PEQ set as low-shelf, frequency set high (280Hz), Q=8, gain=14dB. After running YPAO (I have a Yamaha RX-3070) it attenuated the sub output by 2.5dB, so I manually set it to zero and dropped the first miniDSP PEQ to 11.5dB. The input level meter on the miniDSP showed plenty of headroom available with the AVR cranked up, so should be fine.
Do you have the 2x4 HD version? Looking at its docs, it allows up to 12 dB input gain. Failing that, it seems one could just manually gin up a biquad text file in which one biquad has b0 equal to the desired value (10^(Gain_dB/20)) and b1, b2, a1 and a2 equal to zero.

Also, you mention an LF shelf with a Q of 8. Is that a typo, meant to be 0.8? A Q of 8 would give a big peak at the LF corner and a big dip at the HF corner. A Q of 0.707 is maximally flat.
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post #1742 of 1761 Old 11-08-2019, 11:15 AM
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Yes, a typo. I set Q=0.8. Only have the non-HD version, hence using the first biquad to get the required gain, see attached image.
Indeed, biquad set as you described (b0=3.75837 for +11.5db) would give flat gain, but I decided that a low shelf could be advantageous as my two B&W subs died a while back so I converted them to external amps which I placed in the same case as my main amps. Rolling off the higher frequencies seemed like an opportune thing to do, but on the other hand I may have introduced an unwanted phase error into the system now I come to think about it some more. Perhaps I'll follow your tip and change to a flat biquad.
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post #1743 of 1761 Old 11-09-2019, 05:21 PM
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Hi, I needed clarification on a couple things;


Following the miniDSP tutorial, "Under Sub Channel 1, right-click on "Filters" and select "Add Gain Block". Do the same for "Add Delay Block," then three times for "Add Parametric EQ"."


Why did the author add 3 PEQ to each Sub Channel? Was it 1 for each sub in the project? If I only have 2 subs, 3 positions, do I only add 2 PEQ to each Sub Channel?


To add the house curve, I only make a .txt file with the Target curve going from [email protected] [email protected], It would be 30.00 6.0, 100 0.0?



Can I keep my UMIK the same height for all measurements?

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post #1744 of 1761 Old 11-09-2019, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post
Following the miniDSP tutorial, "Under Sub Channel 1, right-click on "Filters" and select "Add Gain Block". Do the same for "Add Delay Block," then three times for "Add Parametric EQ"."


Why did the author add 3 PEQ to each Sub Channel? Was it 1 for each sub in the project? If I only have 2 subs, 3 positions, do I only add 2 PEQ to each Sub Channel?
There's no hard and fast answer to this, but there are some general guidelines. You can consider each per-sub PEQ to be a tool to fight a problematic room mode. So within reason, the more PEQs per sub, the more problematic room modes you can fight. A good rule of thumb is to start with 4 PEQs per sub, run an optimization, and if you don't think the results are good enough, add one PEQ per sub channel and try again. Each sub channel should have the same number of PEQs.

Some people have used as many as 10 PEQs per sub, but the results I've seen from this can sometimes show weird time domain behavior in the waterfall plot of all subs combined. Also, the more PEQs per sub that you use, the longer the optimization will take for best results.

By comparison, the Harman SFM (Sound Field Management) system only uses one PEQ per sub. Their optimization in effect tries to find the one "killer room mode" and attacks that.


Quote:
To add the house curve, I only make a .txt file with the Target curve going from [email protected] [email protected], It would be 30.00 6.0, 100 0.0?
In your case, with that curve if you started out with 75 dB SPL at 100 Hz, you'd end up ideally with 75 + 6 dB = 81 dB at 30 Hz. Your curve says that the SPL at 30.0 Hz should be 6 dB higher than it is at 100 Hz. If you import the target curve, you can see what it looks like by plotting it on a graph. This is kind of clumsy, as you can't see the curve while you're creating it. That's why I created the target curve example, referenced in this section of the help. To use it, do the following:
  1. Download the linked target curve example and unzip it.
  2. Open up the .msop file in MSO. It will show the response of an LF shelf filter.
  3. Using the tuning feature described in the tutorial, adjust the center frequency, Q, and LF boost of the LF shelf filter to taste. See attached image.
  4. When done, save the filter's response as a target curve per the documentation linked above.
  5. Close this project and open up your original project
  6. Import this target curve into your project.
  7. In your project, in the Config View, select the "Shared Filters" folder under "Subwoofer Channels"
  8. Right-click and choose "Add LF Shelf Filter->LF Shelf Variable Q Second Order (Alt)



That last step will give you a filter that will be optimized to force the response to the target curve. So PEQs in individual sub channels are used for fighting modes, and LF shelf filters in the shared sub channel are used to boost the low end and make the response match the target curve. You don't want to use PEQs for setting target curves, only for fighting modes.

Quote:
Can I keep my UMIK the same height for all measurements?
Yes.
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post #1745 of 1761 Old 11-09-2019, 07:08 PM
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Wonderful! Thanks Andy.

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post #1746 of 1761 Old 12-22-2019, 10:02 PM
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I’m trying to use MSO to flatten frequency response across my seating (front and rear subs for 5 seating positions). I made my measurements using a UMIK with my center channel for acoustic timing using REW and exported the measurements.

I am stumped as to why my pre-optimization initial graphs on MSO do not match those of REW for the combined (Sub 1 plus Sub 2) individual response of each seat. I’ve attached screenshots of each. If you look at the REW graph labeled “All SPL”, you can see that from 20 to 50 Hz four of the 5 seat responses using both subs are relatively flat. However, the combined responses in MSO for each seat look substantially different in that there is a tremendous amount of SPL variation between 20 to 50 Hz.

For example, I’ve attached the REW and MSO graphs for the Left Seat. The individual measurements for each sub and the left seat match between REW and MSO as shown on the graph screenshots. From that perspective, the measurements seem to be imported correctly in MSO.
I believe I did the measurement associations correctly – I added the measurements for all seats done for the Front Sub to the first channel and respectively all seats for the Second Sub to the second channel. I then setup measurement groups that combine the measurement for each respective listening seat with the measurement of that particular seat with each sub. This can be seen on the config page on the left of the screen shot.

I’ve read the manual a number of times and have gone through the sample project and am not sure what I am not doing correctly. Shouldn’t the MSO graph look roughly similar to the REW graph given the same axis and SPL range for a combined seat location summing the response of Sub 1 and Sub 2? I thought it would be similar to using the Trace Arithmetic tool in REW when you add the response of two subs together which normally is extremely close to the actual measured response of the same two subs.

What should I try next to ensure the proper data is input correctly so the results aren’t garbage in / garbage out?

I've attached screenshots from REW, MSO and the exported text files from REW for my left seat - front, rear and both subs combined.
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Attached Files
File Type: txt Lt Seat - Rear.txt (13.0 KB, 4 views)
File Type: txt Lt Seat - Both.txt (13.2 KB, 4 views)
File Type: txt Lt Seat - Front.txt (13.1 KB, 4 views)

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post #1747 of 1761 Old 12-22-2019, 10:38 PM
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When trying to solve such problems, the best approach is to break it down to the smallest possible problem. Such an approach would be to measure two subs at one listening position. Then compare their summation in MSO to their summation in REW. They should match.
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post #1748 of 1761 Old 12-23-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
When trying to solve such problems, the best approach is to break it down to the smallest possible problem. Such an approach would be to measure two subs at one listening position. Then compare their summation in MSO to their summation in REW. They should match.

Says the wise man.... Thank you!


I rebuilt the optimization from scratch using the same data and method and it all worked. I'm unsure as to what may have went wrong but all is good now. Thank you for all your work in providing this great software!
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post #1749 of 1761 Old 12-30-2019, 11:53 PM
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Hi Andy,

I have a feature suggestion.
This is regarding phase cancellation.
Sometimes MSO is able to calculate phase shifted curve such that multi sub can have flat response although individual sub are having peaks.

I have attached my example that two of my 3subs have 118db @ 30hz , while final target is just 100db. I think this area is not good as the difference is way too high as such the time decay might be high as well.

My suggestion is, is it possible to have a restriction on peak cancellation due to phase shift ? E.g. I want to allow only maximum 6db that individual sub response is higher than the target response.

Another suggestion, regarding the global cut restriction, can that ignore the PEQ that are locked?
E.g. I have some manually defined PEQ that has 15dB cut , but I want the rest of the auto PEQ being limited to only 10dB.


Thanks!

(attached msop file)
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post #1750 of 1761 Old 12-31-2019, 09:23 PM
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Although you haven't posted anything that allows solving your problem or even diagnosing it correctly, it appears that you may have some subs that are out of phase with one another just below 30 Hz. Further, it appears that you've allowed the PEQ filters in MSO to have a large boost, yet now complain that MSO uses such boost to deal with the cancellation caused by this out-of-phase condition. Such a low-frequency phase-cancellation condition can sometimes be caused by having dissimilar subs, such as combining sealed and ported subs.

To figure out what's going on, I'd need to see a zipped project file.

I find it unbelievable that someone who's been posting to this thread for over a year would post photographs of graphs from two programs, taken from a cell phone and rotated 90 degrees from their proper orientation, when both of these programs have an easy-to-use graph capture feature built in. This tells me that whatever time I might spend on this problem will not be well spent.
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Last edited by andyc56; 12-31-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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post #1751 of 1761 Old 01-01-2020, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Although you haven't posted anything that allows solving your problem or even diagnosing it correctly, it appears that you may have some subs that are out of phase with one another just below 30 Hz. Further, it appears that you've allowed the PEQ filters in MSO to have a large boost, yet now complain that MSO uses such boost to deal with the cancellation caused by this out-of-phase condition. Such a low-frequency phase-cancellation condition can sometimes be caused by having dissimilar subs, such as combining sealed and ported subs.



To figure out what's going on, I'd need to see a zipped project file.



I find it unbelievable that someone who's been posting to this thread for over a year would post photographs of graphs from two programs, taken from a cell phone and rotated 90 degrees from their proper orientation, when both of these programs have an easy-to-use graph capture feature built in. This tells me that whatever time I might spend on this problem will not be well spent.
I am sorry that I was using Tapatalk while I was on a bus.

Attached please find the msop file, and let me know if you need anything else.

Also, I didn't complain anything about MSO, it is a great program and I do appreciate whatever you do for us.
All I said above was just a feature suggestion.
That peak is not a boost as I set max boost to 0 as always.

Thanks again.
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post #1752 of 1761 Old 01-02-2020, 07:24 AM
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using this again for the first time in a while, the improved much performance is a v nice improvement, thanks!

I have one minor feature request if you're open to them....

when displaying filtered output curves along with the target curve, add the reference level in dB to the target curve so you can see the target alongside the actual curve (might mean providing an option to display the target in this fashion rather making it a selectable curve)
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post #1753 of 1761 Old 01-02-2020, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
using this again for the first time in a while, the improved much performance is a v nice improvement, thanks!



I have one minor feature request if you're open to them....



when displaying filtered output curves along with the target curve, add the reference level in dB to the target curve so you can see the target alongside the actual curve (might mean providing an option to display the target in this fashion rather making it a selectable curve)
I think you can do this already under curve settings. In the target curve you can add an offset level as your reference.

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post #1754 of 1761 Old 01-02-2020, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
I think you can do this already under curve settings. In the target curve you can add an offset level as your reference.
thanks, I didn't spot the option in the trace itself.
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post #1755 of 1761 Old 01-09-2020, 10:37 AM
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MSO Application Error

Hello Andyc56
FYI, I have experienced MSO getting an application error and terminating. Using the latest MSO version and Window 10 OS. You should be able to recreate, but I will attach my MSO Project file & Windows Event Log entry if needed.

Here is what I did

1) Created a Sub Only Config 5a that included a House Curve
2) Created Graphs for Response, Filters & Target Curve

All is fine with optimization and display of graphs

3) Cloned the above 5a Config along with graphs and it named 5a w/0 House Curve
4) Removed the Home Curve in the Optimization Options
5) Optimization ran fine, Graphs for Response & Filter display fine
6) But I if attempt to show the Target Curve Graph, MSO terminates. No error message, just the Application error in the Windows event log.

Kind of a User error having a Graph that does not have a House Curve Trace, but if there was any unsaved work in the MSO Project it would be lost.

Thanks for such a great program & the support you provide.
Cheers,Tim
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post #1756 of 1761 Old 01-10-2020, 07:13 AM
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Thank you for the wonderful program!

I used MSO to optimize three pairs of subwoofers in my room. I measured with REW (via HDMI channel 4) and level-matched each of the three subwoofer pairs (85 dB each pair and 90 dB combined IIRC) prior to running MSO, but I think the front pair (JTR 4000ULF-ST) could have the gain increased, as they are my “super subs”

I ran Audyssey (via the MultEQ Editor app) after importing the filters, and used the app controls to turn the subwoofer channel correction down to 20 Hz which basically turns it off.

I did not alter the distance setting found by Audyssey but I did adjust it up and down and measured with REW to ensure it was the best match with the left and right channels.

I did reduce the gain of the subwoofer channel in the AVP from +12 dB (where Audyssey set it) to zero because I had a level matched the subwoofers with REW prior to the optimization.

Are there any issues with increasing the gain on individual subwoofer pairs after running MSO optimization and importing the biquad filters into the mini DSP?

Is it better to increase the gain via the miniDSP input or via the AVP (Marantz AV8805)?

Thank you for any assistance.

Mark


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post #1757 of 1761 Old 01-14-2020, 09:40 AM
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I have a strange issue that when I run Audyssey (via the MultEQ Editor app or via the AVP interface) after importing the biquad filters into the miniDSP, Audyssey won't measure and/or correct below 250 Hz for all speakers. I had previously uninstalled and reinstalled the MultEQ app and soft reset the AVP. I have just completed testing this morning, including a full reset of the AVP, and the problem persists. Has anyone experienced this before?

Thanks.

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Thank you andyc56 for the great software! What an amazing contribution to the audio community!

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post #1759 of 1761 Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I have a strange issue that when I run Audyssey (via the MultEQ Editor app or via the AVP interface) after importing the biquad filters into the miniDSP, Audyssey won't measure and/or correct below 250 Hz for all speakers. I had previously uninstalled and reinstalled the MultEQ app and soft reset the AVP. I have just completed testing this morning, including a full reset of the AVP, and the problem persists. Has anyone experienced this before?

Thanks.

Mark
Perhaps a dumb question, but how do you know Audyssey won’t measure/correct below 250Hz?

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post #1760 of 1761 Old Yesterday, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Perhaps a dumb question, but how do you know Audyssey won’t measure/correct below 250Hz?



Jeff


In the post Audyssey graphs viewed in both the app room correction results and Ratbuddyssey, the response drops off significantly at 250 Hz.

I had a home theater GTG yesterday and it was suggested that the mic could be broken, so I have to try with a different Audyssey mic to see if the results are the same.



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post #1761 of 1761 Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM
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Gave you done any measuring with REW?

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