The VibSensor Accelerometer Test Thread - Page 56 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1651 of 2153 Old 09-21-2017, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I only got the rears physically connected today, used a white noise 0-20Hz signal just to check they're alive. Naturally ran the levels up a bit just to check all is ok, noticed various things in the room are vibrating in sympathy and the screen (or projector) is shaking. There's nothing like a bit of overkill
Front subs aren't important. We just tell them they are so they don't feel left out.
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post #1652 of 2153 Old 09-22-2017, 05:55 AM
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Not interested in turning this into a full-time job.
http://tools.twanwintjes.nl/index.php?page=avchdcoder
Separate "discs" should be doable, though.
One (small) step at a time.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1653 of 2153 Old 09-23-2017, 12:41 PM
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I got the NF connected today and completed a very basic, rough, setup. This setup was for a reasonably good FR combination, need to get some more time at the controls to take account of TR as well.

Some basic TR data though for a starting point, naturally using EoT as that's the common denominator for a quick test

My 2 seating positions are in pink, black is the EoT source. The extra resolution from the rpi gives us a view all the way through the sub range so we can see it tracks the harmonics of the signal pretty well (>=45Hz) & we can see my room mode peeking in at 40Hz even though the signal doesn't have anything there. In the fundamentals of the signal we can see that 25-30Hz is too strong, 15Hz is too weak and 10Hz is basically non existent. It will be interesting to see if I can tilt that up. I really should have the excursion and the power available to make a dent in that now but we'll see.

The other thing to notice is that the response is more consistent across the two seats now which is a big improvement over the previous setup.



Breaking down the main signal into XYZ shows that it's not just Z action now, it's X and Y too.



Subjectively this feels *much* stronger than before, I wonder if that (3d) motion is why? the big ported job at the front is definitely contributing more feel now too, didn't measure that alone though. I'll have to use some white noise next time to try to calibrate.
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post #1654 of 2153 Old 09-23-2017, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Good resolution and the source level for comparison, bandwidth to 100hz. Can you overlay another graph such as adding SPL to the mix to show how they interact? Is that attached to top of seat?

Don't sweat the front sub. From a tactile pov, it's a trophy wife. Screen wall subs are all about smooth FR and MB and anchoring the sound. Your rear sub will have a hundred times the TR. As they say, business out front, party in the back. I'll be eagerly watching how this looks and works. Congrats on all, subs and meter
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post #1655 of 2153 Old 09-24-2017, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I know @SBuger and others including myself have commented on how VS doesn't show much under 10hz. In my case, I take a hit by not weighting my phone. When I do 10hz increases while the other freqs drop. Still, the reason we see a drop off is because our systems aren't capable of maintaining acoustic coupling at these low freqs. Thats why most of us give up on single digits and move on, concentrating on making 15hz and above better. Acoustic coupling drops as frequency does. While we may think that we have strong response into the single digits, and we do, its sound pressure and room gain, not tactile like we think and VS bares this out. I know I've said this over and over and over again but for strong tactile performance you have to build a bigger bomb or get closer to ground zero. Wood floors and risers work, no question. But we're talking about 5x, 10x 20x improvement to TR, no where close to the hundreds, thousands even tens of thousands of times increase needed to bring single digit TR inline with our PSD above 10hz. Single digits are a black hole of tactile response. B

While theres a multitude of ways to improve TR, single digit TR can only be improved a few ways, VNF sub, Crowson MA's and SubRiser. If anyone has another alternative, please measure and post your VS data. VNF is a Very NearField sub or a sub thats closer than its diameter to the seat. Inches can make a huge difference here. Crowson MA's because of being and directly coupled actuator. And the SubRiser(I'm crediting this to @Scott Simonian because its the first I've seen in a home theater) which has an obvious advantage in the Z axis or vertical axis. How big of advantage is close proximity? I ran a VS on my near VNF sub to illustrate.

This is EOT with the VNF 24 sub only, all other speakers subs and MA off. While MV is -10db, this is flat, so its closer to -25db. Here the sub is about 18" from the back of the seat.



In this next run, the only change was moving the sub a foot closer and the MV was -20db. No other change.



A foot closer equals a 10db gain. Big difference.

Next I wanted to see if VS would respond to increased TR. As mentioned above there two ways. I used the same Bomb but took a reading from Ground Zero. This is by far the highest tactile run ever recorded here. [email protected] zero(phone attached to cone)achieved what I thought was impossible for VS and a phone to record. I thought for
sure I heard my phone snap. It survived. Never again. Not with this phone. The peak hit was 6G’s, one direction. Looking at the raw vibration data you see the an uncorrected for phone movement total G's approaching 20g's. That's a G swing that would shred a human body in a second. A T Rex shaking its prey to kill it comes to mind. Flatout brutal.







The second set is the phone dropped onto a felt backed area rug.








All of this shows just how capable VS/iPhone 7 is and the power a sub can generate. The question is how can we limit that loss and couple our tactile components to the seating more efficiently.
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post #1656 of 2153 Old 09-24-2017, 10:49 PM
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^^^

@coolrda Awesome! Great tests and info! I love this stuff!

Wow that single 24" is way powerful even at 1 foot to 18" away!! And attached to the cone at 6hz!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
All of this shows just how capable VS/iPhone 7 is and the power a sub can generate. The question is how can we limit that loss and couple our tactile components to the seating more efficiently.
Great question and one I've thought about more than a few times!

As far as coupling the TR to the seating for the acoustical coupling, I think you nailed it with showing what it can do in the VS tests by moving the driver closer to the seat. IME, inches really can make a real big difference, especially a foot or so like your test shows with the one 24" as you moved it closer. Also form my experiments, its not just the TR/Shake that is has a big effect on, it's what you feel in your body as well, which I kind of think of a Slam. So for me, this means the closer I can get that driver the more TR and Slam I can get out of it.

Another question is would this be better/more efficient or just different feeling (effects the axis differently) with the driver behind you on the floor so it hits you on your lower back/butt area or up a little higher, OR like Scotts sub riser where the driver is right under your seat? I'm mainly talking sealed subs here, but would apply to ported as well, but will have the port position to take into consideration as well as the driver itself.

One thing I'd like to bring up or 'question', is how much difference does room gain effect TR compared to actual output from the driver without much room gain when it's positioned VNF right behind you or right underneath your seat? I wonder about this. Take a look at this info...

This VS was done almost a year ago on EOT with subs only (3 VNF's + FF), but probably looks pretty similar now even with a slightly different calibration. This is with a 5lb weight (bag of rice) at -10mv. For each 5 lbs you weight with, you loose about 10db difference on TR levels and it also effects the overall PSD TR slope across the board and around that 8-12hz and under like you were saying. But we can talk about that later. At -10mv with subs pretty flat with speakers or maybe a hair above, my TR on the PSD reading follows the EOT source pretty closely, not exact but still pretty close (slight dip at 15hz and 10hz could be a hair higher), meaning it climbs higher and higher as its steps from 30hz to 10hz (30, 25, 20, 15, 10).



Now with that shown, since I basically don't get any room gain in my nearly 10,000cuft huge room, my VNF sealed 18's have to be LS'd pretty good (LS 9) to get the low end picked up to where its pretty flat down to around 15hz or so before it starts falling off. So this is pretty much what my seating is getting like this close mic measurement:



Ok now then, how would this differ in TR on the PSD on EOT if I got enough room gain that I only needed maybe 1-2db of Low Shelf on the low end to get flat down to that same 12hz or so before it starts falling off? Is room gain as powerful for TR as the actual drivers output raised with an LS (or LLT ported that doesn't need an LS)? I'm thinking probably not because VNF can be so damn powerful, but I cant say for sure because I've never experienced it or tested it. I'll get to find out soon though I guess, as I'm in the process of moving all my gear upstairs to a small 1350 cuft room, but will also be on a suspended floor (which will add another variable and will have an effect on TR). Also I'm talking TR/Shake here, not room pressurization, which I think would most definitely go to the room with more room gain, which would also most likely be a smaller room vs the large with not as much room gain.

So if this is indeed the case and you can get more TR from the actual driver output VNF (LS'd to be flat with close mice measurement - basically what your seat is getting) vs not as much driver output (not LS'd so the low end tapers off on the sealed sub for close mic measurement) and the difference is made up with room gain, would a person with the room gain in a smaller room be able to go ahead and LS to a flat FR down low on the close mic measurement (again what your seats gets with the driver that close) + the room gain which will give you a pretty Hefty rising house curve down real low, be able to stand the pressure in your ears etc in a smaller dedicated room while getting the TR (or maybe even a little more) to match the EOT source track (or what ever the ULF source)? Make sense? Sorry for the mega run on sentence, I think I may have tried to cram to much of what I wanted to say in there LOL. @3ll3d00d I know its still very early, but I was going to ask you about this with your latest EOT measurements with your VNF subs only and trying to get those last 15hz and 10hz raised a little more. Is your FR pretty flat at the MLP down to around 10hz? Did you have to use much of a Low Shelf to raise the low end FR on your sealed VNF's or is room gain helping you out quite a bit to get you there? How does a close mic FR read on one of your subs that you are using VNF behind your seat with your current current cal that you got your VS reading from? Just curious, as room gain vs what the driver is actually doing may be coming into play here. I'm sure seating has a big effect as well as room and other things.

If ear pressure does become a problem at this point by LSing down low + the room gain, then I'm sure the MA's will be even more important on the 10hz and under stuff (may require an army of them to match the 10hz and above TR) and may be one of the only other ways to attack the problem, besides maybe a suspended floor. I'm sure suspended floors have their problems to and can differ from one another, maybe a little ore quite drastically. One suspended floor might have a crazy 10hz and single digit resonate frequency while another might not or a little higher etc.

So I'm mainly referring to TR from around 30-50 down to around 8-10hz here with the VNF subs. IDK about the single digit stuff under about 8hz, I'm sure it gets way harder and harder to get that couch moving the lower you go with acoustical coupling to match the stuff above 10hz like you were saying, but I have no doubt the closer you can get the driver, the better the chance.

As far as mechanical coupling goes with the MA's or TT's, beside the usual tricks of having a good hard surface to push against for the MA's (bottom and top), having them in the best place on your seating (probably the rear of chair, but maybe not), and maybe a few other little things, IDK, at least for the singe digit stuff to read well with VS/iPhone like you shown it's able to do with your test directly on the cone. Like I mentioned up above, maybe just an army of them to allow you to EQ the crap of them under 10hz or so to get the readings up around the stuff over 10h-12hz.

------------

So about the VS weighted vs no weight. I agree about how it effects the readings. Not only does each 5 lb bag of rice effect the TR reading by about 10db across the board (which is ok), it also effects from about 15-20hz and below quite a bit. With more weight, you get a little deeper extension readings but it also slopes off more from abut 20hz and lower (a lower reading) compared to the rest. So another words, a little flatter PSD response (unless you start getting much over 5 lbs where the 15-20hz and under starts to drop off or get smashed down even more) vs more of a gradual sloped downward PSD response across the board, which I think is what we are after (or maybe I should say the most accurate) from all the many different VS readings with white noise that folks have posted.

The problem with no weight on the devise as you all know, is the phone can loose contact with the seat. Maybe not such a big problem if you readings are down around 1e-04 or thereabouts, but you start getting up around 1e-03 to 1e-01 or higher, then its a problem - that phones is going to be catching some air off the seat cushion. I think if one is going to be taking these VS readings with no weight, you'll just have to find a way to secure the phone to eliminate the bounce (or a least real close to it). My last few reading I posted in this thread a couple months back I actually took with no weight and kind of preferred it. I think I still got a tiny bit of bounce up off the seat but not by much, at least on one end of the phone. The other end kind of tucked under the lip of the seat back barely, where the top of seat cushion meets the back of seat and therefore eliminated most of the overall bounce. Seemed to work great, but I'm sure a piece of artists tape or something would work even better and probably not mess with your seat surface at all when removed. Yes, PSD readings go up by about 10db and you loose a little extension under 10-12hz with no weight, but it doesn't start smashing it down under 15-20hz and under, while also giving a nicer gradual slope on the white noise files, which is what I think we should be after IMO with everything I've seen so far.

@coolrda did you take these EOT measurements weighted with rice or no weight? Which do you prefer and what do you think we should all use? It would probably be best if we all start trying to use the same method, whether it's 5 lbs of rice, 2 lbs of rice, or no weight with the device secured with tape or something to eliminate the measuring device (iphone or whatever) from loosing contact with the seat surface and effect the accuracy.

Thoughts?

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post #1657 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm really looking forward to seeing your new rooms measured performance. Compliant floors and walls transfer tactile energy well. I think it will be close though my guess is vnf sub/MA's win out.

We all need to use weighted measurements. I'll run a 2lb vs 5lb comparison. Unweighted is ok for direct comparison at lower level like the proximity test above. Even that's better weighted but it wasn't available when I tested.

My I Room unEQ'd FR is flat to 5hz. Even the smallest of LS applied makes the room feel heavy. So while a room gain and a tight room gives you a very nice SPL bump and TR on a suspended, it doesn't on concrete. Looking at everything to date, I have to say the phone to cone test was the tell all. VNF's dominates!
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post #1658 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 10:51 AM
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It'll be interesting for sure. Not sure if I'll stay up in that room or not, but I'm curious and would really like to have all my stuff out of the middle of the living room and in a dedicated room. Also, I'm sure it'll be way better for my projector image since I can black it out and all that, and can get a little closer for better immersion. We'll see, it'll be a lot of work but fun I'm sure. It's a square room 13x13.5 so dealing with peaks and nulls for a good FR may be a nightmare.

Ok, yeah I'm good with whatever weight we decide on.

FR flat to 5hz unEQ'd is pretty crazy. For that to happen, did you have to treat quite a bit with Bass Traps? What's the dimensions of your room? Yeah that was kind of what I was afraid of by LSing for more TR down low in a small room is that it may make it feel to overly heavy.

Yes, I think VNF's definitely dominate, and your phone on the cone test is insane and tells the tell, as well as just moving the sub a little closer!! Your right, if you got that kind of intensity, it would be like a T Rex shaking its prey, it would tear you up right now! Flatout Brutal like you say! So if we can tap into as much of that as we can, then its just going to increase intensity that much more, if that's what your into, which I think its safe to say at this point that we are
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post #1659 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 11:26 AM
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I am in,as you know, a 12x12 room..........being able to black it out, close the doors to help pressurize the room, low end gain......etc etc etc, it is well worth fighting the modes and everything such as heat, that goes with a smaller space.


My new planned room, will not be much bigger approx. 11x18 , so I can wall to wall the screen and get a second row in on a riser, not that I have a bunch of guests and need seating, just because I want 2 rows.....

So I guess in reality, I am making the room smaller and adding a second row to the smaller/longer room.... If that makes sense.



Dedicated rooms are nice in that you can do whatever you want as that room serves no other function and WAF goes thru the roof on things that would never fly in a dual use space.......
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post #1660 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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It cool how easy you can hit THX ref level in small rooms with big systems. Effortless.

The heats a big issue mainly due to the projector. I'm will vent mine next month. Hope that helps.

To answer your questions SB I don't use a bass trap presently. I have a lot of acoustic panels but that's for treating all frequencies. I'm about to make a 2x2x4ft trap to experiment with. Sub placement, quantity and seating position has worked well for me. Room is 9x11x15.4ft.
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post #1661 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 07:47 PM
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Well I haven't got my equipment moved into my room yet because I had to get a big corner desk out of there first. The room is now empty with my one recliner in there. That's probably all I'll put in there at first if I stay, then when I get the funds may get 3 HT style chairs. Maybe the Pembrokes like coolrda's new HT chairs or maybe the Seatcraft Sonoma's. Unless maybe I think that recliner I have in there now is just the greatest thing ever for TR etc and can't part with it.

@coolrda , just saw your comments and measurements for the MA's on the new seats in the other thread. I think you said they measured about the same as your old seats (once you found the best location) but feels different. Is it a good different and something you think you will like and can get used to? I'm sure seating can make such a difference in feel, even if it may measure close to the same.

So anyway about my room, no equipment in there yet since I had to get the desk out first, but I was setting there in my recliner envisioning it all when my wife and daughter came in to check it out. I can already tell that suspended flooring is a completely different animal than concrete. I could actually really feel them walking around in the room, no way in hell does that happen on concrete! This could be a really good thing, or it could make dialing things in pretty difficult, while trying keeping the balance of it all. Should definitely be interesting!
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post #1662 of 2153 Old 09-25-2017, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Well I haven't got my equipment moved into my room yet because I had to get a big corner desk out of there first. The room is now empty with my one recliner in there. That's probably all I'll put in there at first if I stay, then when I get the funds may get 3 HT style chairs. Maybe the Pembrokes like coolrda's new HT chairs or maybe the Seatcraft Sonoma's. Unless maybe I think that recliner I have in there now is just the greatest thing ever for TR etc and can't part with it.

@coolrda , just saw your comments and measurements for the MA's on the new seats in the other thread. I think you said they measured about the same as your old seats (once you found the best location) but feels different. Is it a good different and something you think you will like and can get used to? I can already tell that suspended flooring is a completely different animal than concrete. I could actually really feel them walking around in the room, no way in hell does that happen on concrete! This could be a really good thing, or it could make dialing things in pretty difficult, while trying keeping the balance of it all. Should definitely be interesting!
One chair and all those subs surrounding it would be awesome. And all your MA/TT's brought to bare on a single seat. You gotta try it. Come on, just do it

Unfortunately there is cons to the suspended floors that aren't discussed much. Their underdamped. Part of why they're tactile. I can feel a slowness to them, a loss of tightness. Not as snappy and that's actually a big deal to me. The Crowson excel at snappy and my 24 is so quick and tight it's intoxicating. I knew the what the output would give me pretty much. But it was the quality and quantity of impact that shocked me. It really reminded me of the Bose 901's and the dynamic speed they had. Good stuff. Hey man, you have options if you don't like it. Gotta try it though, then you'll know.
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post #1663 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 02:27 AM
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Which do you prefer and what do you think we should all use?
I've compared a VS (2kg rice bag & naked) vs a securely affixed lightweight accelerometer, the weighed down version allows VS to produce a reasonable approximation of the accelerometer <=30Hz, the naked version looks quite different. I haven't seen a way to get anything accurate above 30Hz.
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post #1664 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 05:51 AM
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How was the lightweight accelerometer "securely affixed" and can it be rigged up the same way for a phone/tablet?
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1665 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
I know its still very early, but I was going to ask you about this with your latest EOT measurements with your VNF subs only and trying to get those last 15hz and 10hz raised a little more. Is your FR pretty flat at the MLP down to around 10hz? Did you have to use much of a Low Shelf to raise the low end FR on your sealed VNF's or is room gain helping you out quite a bit to get you there? How does a close mic FR read on one of your subs that you are using VNF behind your seat with your current current cal that you got your VS reading from? Just curious, as room gain vs what the driver is actually doing may be coming into play here. I'm sure seating has a big effect as well as room and other things.
in FR, the NF pair measure pretty much flat to ~6Hz without any EQ. I do think they would need a significant LS to heavily weight output to <20Hz . They seem to have massively more impact on the sofa in the 20-25Hz zone though the old subs, it's quite excessive (or rather, it's really unbalanced). I have a feeling these will work better with a much lower low pass, like 30-35Hz or so, and hence just use them purely for ULF. I need to experiment more on that front.

I am trying a different approach first though which is to use combine them with the main sub using MSO in order to get a smoother FR across the seats & then see what TR I get at the end. Once I've lived with that for a while then I'll switch to a TR driven setup and then live with that for a while.
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post #1666 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 06:52 AM
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How was the lightweight accelerometer "securely affixed" and can it be rigged up the same way for a phone/tablet?
Michael
double sided foam tape, IIRC details are somewhere in https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ion-meter.html

it might be possible to do the same for a phone, I would think it depends whether you can get tape strong enough to keep something as heavy as a phone/tablet affixed without damaging the seat (and/or leaving the phone rather gummy) in the process
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post #1667 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I've compared a VS (2kg rice bag & naked) vs a securely affixed lightweight accelerometer, the weighed down version allows VS to produce a reasonable approximation of the accelerometer <=30Hz, the naked version looks quite different. I haven't seen a way to get anything accurate above 30Hz.
Good to have the VS compared to the RPI. From here on I'm using weighted measurements unless noted. My phone bounces up and down or vibrates off the seat now if I don't. I get far more accurate readings that way.
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post #1668 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 09:33 AM
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it might be possible to do the same for a phone, I would think it depends whether you can get tape strong enough to keep something as heavy as a phone/tablet affixed without damaging the seat (and/or leaving the phone rather gummy) in the process
GooGone would take care of the gummy.
I don't think my cloth seats would hold the tape as well as leather would, though.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1669 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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in FR, the NF pair measure pretty much flat to ~6Hz without any EQ. I do think they would need a significant LS to heavily weight output to <20Hz . They seem to have massively more impact on the sofa in the 20-25Hz zone though the old subs, it's quite excessive (or rather, it's really unbalanced). I have a feeling these will work better with a much lower low pass, like 30-35Hz or so, and hence just use them purely for ULF. I need to experiment more on that front.

I am trying a different approach first though which is to use combine them with the main sub using MSO in order to get a smoother FR across the seats & then see what TR I get at the end. Once I've lived with that for a while then I'll switch to a TR driven setup and then live with that for a while.
Your experience matches mine when I first began testing, strong 30-20hz then nothing. It takes awhile to get the settings squared away. Eq and/or gain will get you 15 and maybe 10hz. My 10hz gains 10-15db worth of tactile just from weighting the phone compared to unweighted so it's losing contact. Once I got things ironed out the ULF came up. Yours should too. You have the gear.

I was about to start looking into the MSO thing myself as I had inconsistent FR between seats. I'm not entirely sure why but it's fixed. I have almost identical response across the seating. Could be the seating. I had 3 and now 4 so it's 1/8, 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 arrangement. Or it could be the wall to wall 18's across the front or in combination with the 24. Whatever it is, it's purely by accident. Regardless it works and I'm taking credit for it. Could be simply that there's not a centered seat any longer.
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One chair and all those subs surrounding it would be awesome. And all your MA/TT's brought to bare on a single seat. You gotta try it. Come on, just do it
Something like this maybe







^^^ now hopefully my FR is not total crap where I have my seat, subs and speakers at!! That's usually how it works

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Unfortunately there is cons to the suspended floors that aren't discussed much. Their underdamped. Part of why they're tactile. I can feel a slowness to them, a loss of tightness. Not as snappy and that's actually a big deal to me. The Crowson excel at snappy and my 24 is so quick and tight it's intoxicating. I knew the what the output would give me pretty much. But it was the quality and quantity of impact that shocked me. It really reminded me of the Bose 901's and the dynamic speed they had. Good stuff. Hey man, you have options if you don't like it. Gotta try it though, then you'll know.
Funny that you mention this about one of the cons of suspended floors is under-damping, causing some slowness and loss of tightness, as I was just thinking that that could sure be the case. If I really like being in this room, I hope I don't find it to annoying and can learn to live with it until I can get back on concrete (or something like your new floor) in a different dedicated room someday.

Like you, I like that snappiness as well and the Crowsons really do excel at that! I feel like my DS4 18's are pretty quick and tight as well, but probably not to the extent of your new 24". Then you have to go and use descriptions like "quality of impact and its so quick and tight its intoxicating" .....I'll be getting one of those just like yours to park right behind me someday!!

But maybe there is hope of me liking this floor, as I really like my BK LFE's and they are not quite as damped and 'start and stop' on a dime like the Crowsons are, but I still really like them and may be part of the reason I feel like they give me more of that 'Trampoline" effect that love so much, right there in that wheelhouse of there power 17-27hz or so. Blended with the Crowsons, they still feel tight though and never really thought of them as being to slow to be annoying. Hopefully this suspended floor thing wont be to overly underdamped feeling for my tastes, at least with the Crowsons thrown in - maybe It'll give a little more perceived snappiness like when they are combined with the BK's.

Like you say though, gotta try to know. At least I can go back to what I know I really love if it doesn't workout. But I really do want to be in this room, so I hope it works! It already just feels great to have all my speakers and subs in there (although not hooked up yet) and not right in the middle of the living room. We'll see, fingers crossed!
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[QUOTE=SBuger;54861734]Something like this maybe







^^^ now hopefully my FR is not total crap where I have my seat, subs and speakers at!! That's usually how it works

[QUOTE]


Yes yes yes !!!!!


Eye of the hurricane seating......
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post #1672 of 2153 Old 09-26-2017, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=unretarded;54861830][QUOTE=SBuger;54861734]Something like this maybe







^^^ now hopefully my FR is not total crap where I have my seat, subs and speakers at!! That's usually how it works

Quote:


Yes yes yes !!!!!


Eye of the hurricane seating......
That's awesome! Here's you after the first demo.

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post #1673 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Something like this maybe







^^^ now hopefully my FR is not total crap where I have my seat, subs and speakers at!! That's usually how it works



Funny that you mention this about one of the cons of suspended floors is under-damping, causing some slowness and loss of tightness, as I was just thinking that that could sure be the case. If I really like being in this room, I hope I don't find it to annoying and can learn to live with it until I can get back on concrete (or something like your new floor) in a different dedicated room someday.
Well yeah but I was thinking more along the lines of duct taping them to your body. Course taking a shower is outta the question at that point

I'm patiently waiting on the measurements.
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post #1674 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 08:27 AM
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Which, of course, brings us back to this:
https://www.amazon.com/SubPac-M2-Wea.../dp/B0195BL4OU

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post #1675 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 08:51 AM
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Well yeah but I was thinking more along the lines of duct taping them to your body. Course taking a shower is outta the question at that point

I'm patiently waiting on the measurements.
LOL ...great idea! And yes LBNL, I might as well go ahead and through that vest in there too Ah who need hygiene if you can find a way to get enough heart stopping bass anyway right!? ..priorities

So the easy part was rolling (stair stepping) all those subs up the stairs and getting them in the room. It surprised me actually, it wasn't to bad (its all about the technique I guess lol). It did work me pretty good though! The hard part is getting all my amps and wiring sorted out and up in the room. I'm finding out that my cable management was not the best downstairs. Even if it was, tons of wires etc to deal with.

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post #1676 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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In the interest of starting and posting movie clips, I've built and testing and measured what I consider is a reference tactile response rig. The idea is to take the excellent graph work by MrGrey in the Bass in Movies and further deconstruct it at a tactile level to find those peak, max output and ultimate demo moments in each of these soundtracks. I don't know what goes into graphing each movie, but this process I describe is very time consuming and you can easily spend a day on one movie. First I listen to the soundtrack in its entirety and take notes of the most dynamic parts from a subjective POV. This includes rewinding and replaying. Typically this is done without VS. Then a quick hit of 30 sec runs and evaluate. I've done this so much that most of the time that my subjective impression matches the objective measurement. However bandwidth and creative mixing can make for skewed impressions.

Take for example Kong. This movie is a demo. The whole thing. I take the five most extreme clips and break them down into one minute clips, then the best 30 secs of that then 15 and finally 10 seconds, occasionally even 5 secs. One bring issue is that it not automated. While VS is exacting, operator error isn't. It can take a lot of practice when cueing the ST to VS especially with weighted measuring. Any lag in the remote starting the clip makes for multiple runs. Add to that, sliding a 10 sec clip forward or backwards a second or two completely changes the graph. Like spec lab you get the peaks but you need to further break it down to analyze where the peaks take place. The point is it takes an incredible amount of time and I won't be churning this out Like MrGrey does. However with multiple posters doing this, a great deal more can be accomplished. Realistically, I may be able to do one to two movies a week.

The question is where do we put this. Separate thread or here on the front page where the movie can be clicked to redirect. I just don't have the time to keep up with this. I'll be involved with testing of course but someone that whats to take this on should step up. You don't even need a killer system as we will posts the graphing, just someone that can run a thread and keep it updated as we go. For now, I will title each ST breakdown post as Deconstructing movie title which will identify that post.

The Kill Box

I've been testing for 2.5 years with VS to come up with the Ultimate Tactile Response Rig. Using auto terminology, this setup is an Exotic. This is the tactile equivalent to the 150db horns used in the top rooms here with emphasis on the baddest 5-20hz tactile performance possible. I'll go into a lot more detail on this later along with the ref specs I think is needed to replicate/mirror the ST's tactile response.

The seat is a HT Market Pembroke, their top seat. Sach seat is a stand alone and isolated. Two Crowson Linear Actuators are placed at the back two feet and powered with a EP4K. A SI HS24mk2 is placed 8 inch from the center two seats and powered by a SpeakerPower SP12K. 2xSeats, 4xMA's, 1x24 sub creates what I call the Kill Box. I had no name in mind but every one thats sat there has the same response, "That will kill you". I've never felt anything that brings the intensity to a movie like this does. This isn't crack the sheetrock, break the windows, everything in the house is rattling. This isn't about getting beat up or jumped or assaulted while watching a movie. This is a head inducing rig that brings physical pain to your body. This testing will not be done with me seated. Nor do I watch movies at this level. This is a Bull Ride, plain and simple. This system is scaleable on the fly. Only the middle 2 seats are set up this way. This rig is capable of hitting 1G on 2-3 axes simultaneously. It can hit 1E-01 PSD, Weighted, the equivalent to hitting 140+dbs in the ULF band. Yes, I will try 4xMa's per seat for you crazies out there, but this is my end game. Theres no soundtrack I can't play with reference level SPL and now TR. More to come.
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post #1677 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
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In the interest of starting and posting movie clips, I've built and testing and measured what I consider is a reference tactile response rig. The idea is to take the excellent graph work by MrGrey in the Bass in Movies and further deconstruct it at a tactile level to find those peak, max output and ultimate demo moments in each of these soundtracks. I don't know what goes into graphing each movie, but this process I describe is very time consuming and you can easily spend a day on one movie. First I listen to the soundtrack in its entirety and take notes of the most dynamic parts from a subjective POV. This includes rewinding and replaying. Typically this is done without VS. Then a quick hit of 30 sec runs and evaluate. I've done this so much that most of the time that my subjective impression matches the objective measurement. However bandwidth and creative mixing can make for skewed impressions.

Take for example Kong. This movie is a demo. The whole thing. I take the five most extreme clips and break them down into one minute clips, then the best 30 secs of that then 15 and finally 10 seconds, occasionally even 5 secs. One bring issue is that it not automated. While VS is exacting, operator error isn't. It can take a lot of practice when cueing the ST to VS especially with weighted measuring. Any lag in the remote starting the clip makes for multiple runs. Add to that, sliding a 10 sec clip forward or backwards a second or two completely changes the graph. Like spec lab you get the peaks but you need to further break it down to analyze where the peaks take place. The point is it takes an incredible amount of time and I won't be churning this out Like MrGrey does. However with multiple posters doing this, a great deal more can be accomplished. Realistically, I may be able to do one to two movies a week.

The question is where do we put this. Separate thread or here on the front page where the movie can be clicked to redirect. I just don't have the time to keep up with this. I'll be involved with testing of course but someone that whats to take this on should step up. You don't even need a killer system as we will posts the graphing, just someone that can run a thread and keep it updated as we go. For now, I will title each ST breakdown post as Deconstructing movie title which will identify that post.

The Kill Box

I've been testing for 2.5 years with VS to come up with the Ultimate Tactile Response Rig. Using auto terminology, this setup is an Exotic. This is the tactile equivalent to the 150db horns used in the top rooms here with emphasis on the baddest 5-20hz tactile performance possible. I'll go into a lot more detail on this later along with the ref specs I think is needed to replicate/mirror the ST's tactile response.

The seat is a HT Market Pembroke, their top seat. Sach seat is a stand alone and isolated. Two Crowson Linear Actuators are placed at the back two feet and powered with a EP4K. A SI HS24mk2 is placed 8 inch from the center two seats and powered by a SpeakerPower SP12K. 2xSeats, 4xMA's, 1x24 sub creates what I call the Kill Box. I had no name in mind but every one thats sat there has the same response, "That will kill you". I've never felt anything that brings the intensity to a movie like this does. This isn't crack the sheetrock, break the windows, everything in the house is rattling. This isn't about getting beat up or jumped or assaulted while watching a movie. This is a head inducing rig that brings physical pain to your body. This testing will not be done with me seated. Nor do I watch movies at this level. This is a Bull Ride, plain and simple. This system is scaleable on the fly. Only the middle 2 seats are set up this way. This rig is capable of hitting 1G on 2-3 axes simultaneously. It can hit 1E-01 PSD, Weighted, the equivalent to hitting 140+dbs in the ULF band. Yes, I will try 4xMa's per seat for you crazies out there, but this is my end game. Theres no soundtrack I can't play with reference level SPL and now TR. More to come.
Oh hell yeah!!

And I love the description of your KILL BOX!! I can't image the bass experience being much better that what you have created with your setup. That's what I'm after as well (as are many others I think) and your leading way ...thanks!! Very inspirational and gives us all something to shoot for, for the best experience possible.

Great idea on the clips. I agree from the VSing I've done on the 10-15 movie clips I measured. It can take a lot of time just finding them, then narrowing it down to the most intense parts, then capturing it just right, with weight, timing etc. But oh man, its fun!!! And way fun to see how close you are with the subjective and objective on the VS. Yep, after awhile you can start subjectively coming close to what the objective will be. But sometimes it will surprise you.
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post #1678 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 10:17 AM
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@coolrda fwiw the combination of jriver and my app can produce those graphs v quickly and easily, workflow is just; rip bd, import into jriver, use convert format to mixdown to mono (to produce a SW output track), load into my app, slice and dice as you like (which can be used to create target curves in the app too). You can then create "particles" in jriver based on playback range and store them in your jriver library separately. You can then have a complete library of test clips available on demand (or could be constructed into a playlist).
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post #1679 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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@coolrda fwiw the combination of jriver and my app can produce those graphs v quickly and easily, workflow is just; rip bd, import into jriver, use convert format to mixdown to mono (to produce a SW output track), load into my app, slice and dice as you like (which can be used to create target curves in the app too). You can then create "particles" in jriver based on playback range and store them in your jriver library separately. You can then have a complete library of test clips available on demand (or could be constructed into a playlist).
Oooh. That sounds like just what’s needed. Finding the top of the ST is important. Equally important is TR tracking the source down to the second and ones TR matching that and then ultimately the SPL and TR tracking source perfectly. Then there’s no question that you hear and feel whats intended. All in good time though. When it comes time for that I’ll email you my VS file if that works.

I do see the 30hz and above thing you mentioned about VS. I see it. I thought the same about the below 10hz stuff until I measured the cone. It sure looks like Hollywood has given up on 30-50hz content or maybe were just not looking for that. I graphed Kong and it almost entirely flat from 10-30 then drops off both sides. I’ll post Kong later. Anyway I say go for it. I’ll start charting ST’s.
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post #1680 of 2153 Old 09-27-2017, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Here’s a comparisons of what I had last December and my current system. Both of these are weighted measurements with MA’s only, no sound.

Previous system



Current system



Several things to point out here when you compare. The obvious thing is the weighted output. The current systems run was recorded about 5db lower so there a little left(probably 5-6db lower) whereas the previous was maxed out.

Secondly, the axes overlay on the current system. This increases the subjective feeling tenfold. Likewise with objective data as it further backs this up. Comparing the PSD graphs you see a very clean graph with the current system when compared to the previous system. In fact I compared a hundred runs on the former setup and they all looked the same. What your seeing is a distorting of the source signal. Basically tactile response THD not caused by the source or even the transducer but by the seats response not staying faithful to the source, EVEN though directly coupled.

The third thing is something I’ve not heard mentioned and that’s the EOT 40 and 45hz spike. If memory serves me correct it’s always been there in speclab. Yet I’ve never really seen it produced by VS. it’s always a garbled mess above 30hz. VS should be good to 50hz so it should be there but it’s now where to be found when I looked through 2 years of EOT data. Now look at the new system. Ah, very interesting. We see the 40 and 45hz and it’s clean, clearly delineated matching the source. I’ll have to send this too @3ll3d00d for an overlay.

So whats different. Not the floor as this is a DC(direct coupled), not an AC(acoustic coupled) test and their both on 3/4” OSB floors. Same amps, EQing, source, same MA’s. There’s only one difference, one major change, the seating. This data backs up my subjective feeling the last 6 weeks when I’ve been running the front subs only. I could feel a pretty significant difference in midbass pop. This explains it. This chair is remarkable. I can watch without an issue for 6 hours and my old seating had me on the floor inside an hour. That’s not cool when you spend this kind of dough for tactile response. This is prolly gonna be the funniest you’ve heard in awhile, I’m laughing as I type it but this chair is highly resolved and has great separation of detail. Ha. I don’t know how else to explain it. It’s the perfect compliment to the 24, the MA’s and the 18’s, the C10M’s, my butt, back and head.
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