The VibSensor Accelerometer Test Thread - Page 71 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2101 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 12:11 PM
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I started reading this thread recently. Is there an explanation somewhere about these numbers? What they mean? Thanks.



^^ These are Nalleh's measurements.
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post #2102 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I started reading this thread recently. Is there an explanation somewhere about these numbers? What they mean? Thanks.
they just summarise the data presented and are (IMO) basically irrelevant because they are rather meaningless in the context of this sort of signal

http://www.now-instruments.com/get-h...sor-user-guide for details though
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post #2103 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 02:29 PM
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I got bored and went back to a full riser for all seats and put my 18's in, can't find my xlr cable so the 12's are idle atm. This scene is why I went back, way too realistic, and I knew what I was missing. At this poiunt I may just get 2 more 18's and call it done, or maybe not.
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post #2104 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I started reading this thread recently. Is there an explanation somewhere about these numbers? What they mean? Thanks.



^^ These are Nalleh's measurements.
Here is coolrda’s guide, which explains what it all means. Part 2 a few posts down:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post55191874

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post #2105 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I got bored and went back to a full riser for all seats and put my 18's in, can't find my xlr cable so the 12's are idle atm. This scene is why I went back, way too realistic, and I knew what I was missing. At this poiunt I may just get 2 more 18's and call it done, or maybe not.
WAY to long sample. It is almost never advisable to use more than 10 max 20 seconds measurements.
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post #2106 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
WAY to long sample. It is almost never advisable to use more than 10 max 20 seconds measurements.
Redeux
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post #2107 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 04:32 PM
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^^ Much better. Those are some fine graphs, man

What were your drivers again? Pictures?

You only need to post that third pic, power spectrum, the others aren’t that important for what we are looking at here.

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post #2108 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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@Gorilla Killa :

Here is a old one of mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post

See it has two peaks at 6 and 19hz. Yours have multible more, it almost looks like EOT ! I wonder why?

The timestamps is in the graph title, could you try it like that ?

(Nevermind mine is in G units, it’s the shape of curve i am looking at)

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post #2109 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 05:03 PM
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Pierce Audio made the drivers several years ago, they've held up well.

The White Noise file is somewhat curious the way it falls off at 10hz. This is from LS drop at 5x and it certainly captures down low. Anyone validate the file is what it claims.
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post #2110 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
@Gorilla Killa :

Here is a old one of mine:



See it has two peaks at 6 and 19hz. Yours have multible more, it almost looks like EOT ! I wonder why?

The timestamps is in the graph title, could you try it like that ?

(Nevermind mine is in G units, it’s the shape of curve i am looking at)
Mine was started at 21:20 so we are at the same stamp. This is in G/unit
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post #2111 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 06:17 PM
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This is cool, the waveform on the disc is true to real world harmonics. Shows which part is hitting each frequency. Lines up with the vibsensor.

From the referenced article:

The first notable peak occurs at 24.0 Hz. A series of harmonics occur at 12 Hz intervals thereafter. These are the blade passing frequencies of the main rotor.

The main rotor blade passing frequency is: 5.40 Hz x 2 blades = 10.8 Hz

The Doppler shift increases the apparent blade passing frequency to 12 Hz. The theoretical speed of the helicopters was 76 mph based on this shift.



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post #2112 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 06:50 PM
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It’s legit all right. Here is a RTA i did in REW with Umik, also showing the peaks at 6.5 and 19 hz.

Peaks are clearly visible in the BEQ graph too

This is SPL from the subs, not TR.
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post #2113 of 2157 Old 05-10-2019, 08:57 PM
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I'm in process of building a BOSS platform to see what this whole TR thing is all about. There were several mentions of this thread in the reading I did on BOSS and this looked really interesting. The user guides are great and this info seems awesome. I wanted to get a baseline as to where I'm at right now with no BOSS. Ive attached the EOT scene below. I've got nearfield VBSS's right now and a Marty in the corner. Here's to a lot more learning and shaking in the near future!

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post #2114 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I got bored and went back to a full riser for all seats and put my 18's in, can't find my xlr cable so the 12's are idle atm. This scene is why I went back, way too realistic, and I knew what I was missing. At this poiunt I may just get 2 more 18's and call it done, or maybe not.

If I could stand to be another 3" taller or a little more (I'm already tall enough), I think I'd do the same thing and put my 3 18's that are VNF behind me into the riser instead. I have no doubt they would bring the ULF TR in a major way!!

EDIT: Hell I may have to try the 18's anyway, even if it puts me higher LOL
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post #2115 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
If I could stand to be another 3" taller or a little more (I'm already tall enough), I think I'd do the same thing and put my 3 18's that are VNF behind me into the riser instead. I have no doubt they would bring the ULF TR in a major way!!

EDIT: Hell I may have to try the 18's anyway, even if it puts me higher LOL
2 reasons to do it

1. Headroom is not a problem when you are reclined.
2. When you slide out of the seat you are standing

If I had not of tried it I wouldnt have done all the seating.. I had a friend over few weeks ago and did a few demos before watching JW and the LS chopper scene was one of them. He was beside himself, as I sat there I was like eh, this is not the same. If you have the drivers and can fit it, its leaps and bounds over the 12's which is saying a lot imo.
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post #2116 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
It’s legit all right. Here is a RTA i did in REW with Umik, also showing the peaks at 6.5 and 19 hz.

Peaks are clearly visible in the BEQ graph too

This is SPL from the subs, not TR.

Uhh 116db at 6hz is a bit over the top don't ya think

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post #2117 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Uhh 116db at 6hz is a bit over the top don't ya think
If you look at the LZpeak it is 125.8dB
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post #2118 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
If I could stand to be another 3" taller or a little more (I'm already tall enough), I think I'd do the same thing and put my 3 18's that are VNF behind me into the riser instead. I have no doubt they would bring the ULF TR in a major way!!

EDIT: Hell I may have to try the 18's anyway, even if it puts me higher LOL
I think the major difference here is Xmax. You can get more mms by multiplying JBL’s, but you can’t get the stroke capability.
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post #2119 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I think the major difference here is Xmax. You can get more mms by multiplying JBL’s, but you can’t get the stroke capability.
Agree 100%, the big player here
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post #2120 of 2157 Old 05-11-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Agree 100%, the big player here
Jeff....looks awesome! In the BOSS thread, I've recently started a normalized comparison of a couple different drivers for a BOSS platform.

Basically, after comparing FR in an open baffle using WinISD, the product of Xmax normalized and Mms normalized is compared to the baseline JBL to give a sense of expected performance gain. My bet is the 18 will be at least 3x the 12" JBL after multiplying the Xmax increase by the Mms increase.....maybe even more:

Adding your 18 to the BOSS driver list also would be great if you have the model number....is it still in production?
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post #2121 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Jeff....looks awesome! In the BOSS thread, I've recently started a normalized comparison of a couple different drivers for a BOSS platform.

Basically, after comparing FR in an open baffle using WinISD, the product of Xmax normalized and Mms normalized is compared to the baseline JBL to give a sense of expected performance gain. My bet is the 18 will be at least 3x the 12" JBL after multiplying the Xmax increase by the Mms increase.....maybe even more:

Adding your 18 to the BOSS driver list also would be great if you have the model number....is it still in production?

Pierce doesn't do that unfortunately, each build is per customer request. Sucks but I think it keeps him from having to be consistent build to build. My 18's came out great, my 12's he did not so much.

The mms is almost 700g and the bl is 14. qts is.65 xmax is 90 they are abuse tolerant. Id say anything made for a IB and are hard to bottom out would be great. I paid $700 shipped to me.

Subjectively I think the apples to apples mms and xmax doesn't work for this. 4jbl to 1 18 on same platform was different. @Nalleh mentioned stroke and I think this applies here. The Jbl is reversing direction and the 18 is still moving ahead, even while the jbl has reversed course yet again the 18 is still cruising. 3-1 easily stroke to stroke. So the perception is going to be vastly different. Especially at sub 15hz, much more wobble..........wobble..........wobble as opposed to wobble..wobble..wobble

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post #2122 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Pierce doesn't do that unfortunately, each build is per customer request. Sucks but I think it keeps him from having to be consistent build to build. My 18's came out great, my 12's he did not so much.

The mms is almost 700g and the bl is 14. qts is.65 xmax is 90 they are abuse tolerant. Id say anything made for a IB and are hard to bottom out would be great. I paid $700 shipped to me.

Subjectively I think the apples to apples mms and xmax doesn't work for this. 4jbl to 1 18 on same platform was different. @Nalleh mentioned stroke and I think this applies here. The Jbl is reversing direction and the 18 is still moving ahead, even while the jbl has reversed course yet again the 18 is still cruising. 3-1 easily stroke to stroke. So the perception is going to be vastly different. Especially at sub 15hz, much more wobble..........wobble..........wobble as opposed to wobble..wobble..wobble
Jeff....Thanks....wow, that's some serious mass and excursion. A driver as a shaker is a combination of stroke and mass. The frequency of the stroke will be the same for the 18 or the 12, both will be reversing course at the same time. It's just the 18 covered a lot more ground in that same time period for the wave. So it's acceleration and deceleration at the peaks and valleys of the wave are incredibly higher because of the higher velocity going into the turn so to speak. That's why it feels so much more violent than the JBL's. That higher acceleration/deceleration into and out of the turns multiplied by the higher mass of your 18.....well, that's off the charts and for just one driver

In comparison to the JBL, the 18 has 3.9x the mass and 6x the excursion.....that's a shaker potential of 23.4 times more than 1 JBL.....no wonder you like it so much! It would take about 23 JBL's to equal one of the 18's if ignoring real-world limitations (platform bending, speaker suspension losses at their limits of travel, BOSS suspension losses, furniture transfer losses to the butt, etc)

Will try to model tomorrow using those parameters when I get to a computer....curious of the power needs and frequency response. Since, it's an IB design, I bet it's FR will favor a BOSS application also with a natural roll-off towards higher frequencies and stronger response in the singles....I think we've found the ideal MEGA BOSS driver!

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post #2123 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 09:48 AM
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I think we've found the ideal MEGA BOSS driver!
At $700, no thanks.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2124 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Jeff....Thanks....wow, that's some serious mass and excursion. A driver as a shaker is a combination of stroke and mass. The frequency of the stroke will be the same for the 18 or the 12, both will be reversing course at the same time. It's just the 18 covered a lot more ground in that same time period for the wave. So it's acceleration and deceleration at the peaks and valleys of the wave are incredibly higher because of the higher velocity going into the turn so to speak. That's why it feels so much more violent than the JBL's. That higher acceleration/deceleration into and out of the turns multiplied by the higher mass of your 18.....well, that's off the charts and for just one driver

In comparison to the JBL, the 18 has 3.9x the mass and 6x the excursion.....that's a shaker potential of 23.4 times more than 1 JBL.....no wonder you like it so much! It would take about 23 JBL's to equal one of the 18's if ignoring real-world limitations (platform bending, speaker suspension losses at their limits of travel, BOSS suspension losses, furniture transfer losses to the butt, etc)

Will try to model tomorrow using those parameters when I get to a computer....curious of the power needs and frequency response. Since, it's an IB design, I bet it's FR will favor a BOSS application also with a natural roll-off towards higher frequencies and stronger response in the singles....I think we've found the ideal MEGA BOSS driver!
I agree, that's why I used the term subjectively to begin the paragraph. More describing the feel than anything.

fs 18hz

qts .65

qes .77

qms 4.4

le .93 mH

vas 9.4 ft^3

sens 85.5 db 1w1m

spl 91.1 db @ 2.83 vrms

Bl 13.7 Tm

xmax30mm

xmech 100mmp-p

The coil was made to take up to 1000 watts since initially I was going to throw more power at them. Right now they get about 500 per which is plenty to bottom them out if I tried hard enough. Close to 30db of boost at 10hz which leaves some cushion.
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8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #2125 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
At $700, no thanks.
Michael
Thats for 2 with shipping for what thats worth to you. Not a economy build, its a MOAR build
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post #2126 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
The coil was made to take up to 1000 watts since initially I was going to throw more power at them. Right now they get about 500 per which is plenty to bottom them out if I tried hard enough. Close to 30db of boost at 10hz which leaves some cushion.
Like a MEGA BOSS! Thanks for the parameters Jeff. Very interested to see how this looks in WinISD....if it doesn't break it first
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post #2127 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I agree, that's why I used the term subjectively to begin the paragraph. More describing the feel than anything.

fs 18hz

qts .65

qes .77

qms 4.4

le .93 mH

vas 9.4 ft^3

sens 85.5 db 1w1m

spl 91.1 db @ 2.83 vrms

Bl 13.7 Tm

xmax30mm

xmech 100mmp-p

The coil was made to take up to 1000 watts since initially I was going to throw more power at them. Right now they get about 500 per which is plenty to bottom them out if I tried hard enough. Close to 30db of boost at 10hz which leaves some cushion.
Hmm, yeah i guess even repurposing my SI18HT v2 would be a childs toy compared to that monster !!! That is some serious gear you got there

(Now, technically the SLAPS M12’s passive radiators i use have 4inch Xmax and can be loaded with more than a 1 kg of mass, if it could be made to work, it should have some heft to it )
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post #2128 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 12:35 PM
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You know you need to try the SI 18's
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post #2129 of 2157 Old 05-12-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
You know you need to try the SI 18's
Shut up !!



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Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #2130 of 2157 Old 05-13-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I agree, that's why I used the term subjectively to begin the paragraph. More describing the feel than anything.

fs 18hz

qts .65

qes .77

qms 4.4

le .93 mH

vas 9.4 ft^3

sens 85.5 db 1w1m

spl 91.1 db @ 2.83 vrms

Bl 13.7 Tm

xmax30mm

xmech 100mmp-p

The coil was made to take up to 1000 watts since initially I was going to throw more power at them. Right now they get about 500 per which is plenty to bottom them out if I tried hard enough. Close to 30db of boost at 10hz which leaves some cushion.
Well.....I'd say the Pierce is a one-of-a-kind and there's no doubt why you like it so much.

Below is the FR when looking at excursion as modeled in WinISD in an open baffle.....the y-axis is mm of excursion up to 100 mm full scale. Red is the Pierce 18" and that Blue curve at the very bottom is the JBL This is with about 800 watts rms to get close to Xmech.

The Pierce doesn't start to roll off until after 30Hz and behaves quite strongly between 10-20Hz. With the extra mass and displacement (acceleration) below 10Hz....well, I think you have the single digit TR covered pretty well also.

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