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post #1 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Rel upgrage?

I am a Rel fan. So I only want to discuss that. In my bedroom where ther eis limited space I have an old Q108MKII. Rel told me the upgrade to that is the T5i and it is much better. I know one must listen but looking at the specs that is not an upgrade.. It seems to me the real upgrade is currently the S2. I was wondering if per the specs everyone here agrees. I do not see the T5i being much better than the Q108MKII. It may be somehwta faster but it does not go nearly as low. Low frequency extension is number one on my list. there for I do feel the S2 is the logical upgrade. I do not have more space than that. I was just wondering if in fact that is a parallel upgrade or if it is in fact the T5i It would seem by their product lineip it is the T5i but I feel the S2 is the one that actually has similar specs to the Q108MKII. How that little sub goes so low i do not know. The T%I doe snot nearly. Please advise me.
Thank you
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post #2 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 07:18 PM
 
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At first I thought you wanted an upgrade....but if you want the same 'ol, might try here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...er-thread.html
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post #3 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 07:28 PM
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Okay, I won’t talk about other subwoofer manufacturers. However, you might be better off posting to the REL owner’s thread.

REL doesn’t spec their subwoofers with the standard +/- 3 dB output modifier. They use -6 dB, and that is “in-room” response. The S2 shows that it is down 6 dB at 24 Hz, which is not exactly an impressive spec, especially for an in-room response spec where one would expect far better results. I will assume that your REL (or future REL) is for music only. That the T5i shows it is down 6 dB at 32 Hz (in-room) is far worse.

Hopefully your music doesn’t include organ music or synthesizers. If not, then you should be okay.

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post #4 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 07:47 PM
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Yeah going to be tough for many of us to make a recommendation, as most of us are much more familiar with with the much lower priced and much better performing subs, since they perform much better, cost much less, and offer accurate measurements of performance rather than vague, misleading(in room), and yet still sub par performance.

Best bet is just do the best you can using REL's claimed specs.


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post #5 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. i did not know there was a rel thread but not sure it is okay to cross post now.Ii know you guys are mostly theater. this is music only. For that rel really does a great job imo. I don't know of better subs for music but i guess you guys can tell me. I noticed something else about rel. they brag hard about their composite cone in the t series.The s2 is paper like the q108. above that is carbon fiber. so it looks like it honestly goes with them composite>paper>cf..It does appear the s2 is the proper replacement if i stick with rel. I asked them and they simply said the t5i will kick the q108's butt.That also seemed shady. Bet it does not.

I changed my mind here. Please tell me about better subs for music only and some TV. 2 channel system. I honestly did not know there were beter subs for music Please keep in mind this is an ultra high end but compact system. I would be very surprised if a $400 sub was better. You are welcome to tell me about very expensive ones if they are worth the money. I do know things like sunfire and velodyne do not cut it for me. never heard hsu or anything like that. Not sure about martin logan either.

The thing that is honestly important to me is not just speed but low frequency extension. I want to get to 20hz at zero db down if possible. there is one problem though. the sub cannot be bigger than one foot square. well, 13.5" is the absolute max.
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post #6 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post

The thing that is honestly important to me is not just speed but low frequency extension. I want to get to 20hz at zero db down if possible. there is one problem though. the sub cannot be bigger than one foot square. well, 13.5" is the absolute max.
You want reference levels at 20 hz from one small sub? What are your room dimensions?

Good subs don't care what they're reproducing. What is speed exactly?
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Room is 18'x26'. it is jammed full of stuff though so i have little room left. It is my bedroom system. It is high end equipment but the way it is set up it is far from reference.

I was just hoping I could get 20HZ. I know it is probably impossible at that size.

Speed is simply how fast it can keep pace with the speakers. Or even more simply put how fast the cone moves. Crummy subs tend to not only play one note but they lag behind good speakers. I figure any good sub you would suggest speed is not an issue anyways.

However the current little sub coupled with the speakers will easily produce bass I can feel. I am not interested in that though. In fact i just want reinforcement and do not wish to have slam.
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post #8 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
Room is 18'x26'. it is jammed full of stuff though so i have little room left. It is my bedroom system. It is high end equipment but the way it is set up it is far from reference.

I was just hoping I could get 20HZ. I know it is probably impossible at that size.

Speed is simply how fast it can keep pace with the speakers. Or even more simply put how fast the cone moves. Crummy subs tend to not only play one note but they lag behind good speakers. I figure any good sub you would suggest speed is not an issue anyways.

However the current little sub coupled with the speakers will easily produce bass I can feel. I am not interested in that though. In fact i just want reinforcement and do not wish to have slam.
Try reading through these

PS By reference I meant the calibrated reference level as used for movies and incorporated in many avrs for calibration. You can obtain 20hz but at what level and where in your room is another question.
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post #9 of 34 Old 03-01-2016, 09:39 PM
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There are many subwoofers that are excellent for music (and obviously, HT). I have no idea what your budget is, nor how large or small of a physical size your subwoofer requirements are. If your room is not wide open to other rooms, and you have an 8-foot ceiling height, you are around 3,750 cubic feet, which is a large room by subwoofer standards (3,000 to 5,000 cu. ft. is considered large) and takes a top performer.

For small size subs (sealed subs are the smallest) that can hit close to 20 Hz, look at SVS (SB13-Ultra), perhaps JL Audio E112. Both have piano black finishes, but aren’t cheap ($1,600 for the SVS and around $1,900 to $2,100 for the JL Audio E112 depending upon finish). Rythmik may also be a great place to look, especially since they are less expensive than the above. Their subs are widely known for their music capabilities. Also note the specs from each company. They are far more complete than the REL specs.

Obviously, the larger you can go (physical size) the more impressive the subwoofer and the deeper it will play with solid output. I have both the SB13 (paired with Maggies) for music only and a PSA S3000i in another room that is also very good for music (the S3000i isn’t small though).

Check data-bass for real specifications on various subwoofers: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems

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post #10 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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As I said I am limited to about a 12" square cube. I just might already have the best option. The Rel T5i does not impress me. My speakers go lower than it does. I kind of think that would be a waste of my money. Considering the older one had much better specs. Not sure there is much that size. Looking at 8" driver most likely. I am not sure any of them are better than what I have. 8" subs are just very limited due simply to their size. BTW, 13 foot ceiling. The current sub does the job for me., It is just that of course Rel is going to say their new product is better. I think that one at least would be kind of a waste. Anything powerful and musical in the size I require? You may ask with a room that size why I am so limited. Has to go on side of dresser and 13" away is the door. I really cannot put it anywhere else. There is sunfire but not sure about that. 1,000 watts? I doubt that is RMS. Not sure what is an upgrade because at that size it is very limited.
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 04:13 AM
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a decade ago, REL was the go to sub for music, sadly REL has been sold to another company and has somewhat lost their touch due to their high cost compared to other subwoofers in the market. I would seriously look into Rythmik subwoofers, their subswoofers is very tight, get one of their their sealed subwoofers and you would never look back....
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post #12 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Correct you are. I just found out a little known fact. Rel certainly does not want anyone to know.Ahem, Sumiko. Since 2006 they are made in china. Right now it appears to be the entire line. This is fine, Except they did not lower their prices to be competitive with other brands. Mine was made in 2003 by the original designer. it was $749. Made in GB. The comparable model i see now is a 10" with a passive radiator. It is $2,599. It is no wonder that guy got those specs out of my tiny box. He started that brand. Sumiko can't seem to do that. I am pretty sure I will not get a rel now.
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post #13 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 06:10 AM
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Due to your size constraint, how about this?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8_specs.html

-3 dB @ 20 Hz, dual 8" drivers.


This sub also meets your dimension requirements:
http://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000

After this, most subs I am familiar with are at least 14" on the smallest dimension. No possible to move your furniture an inch or two? In a room that is 18' x 26', it's hard to imagine you can't find a few inches if you wanted to. Maybe some fresh sets of eyes on your room will help "discover" some placement options. I find that we tend to limit ourselves unrealistically when it comes to how and where we can fit or accommodate new or different items. Not always, but often. I've done it myself.

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post #14 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 09:56 AM
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TriTon, you do have unique and improbable requirements. In a room of that volume (now over 6,000 cu. ft. w/13-foot ceiling height, which is considered “extreme”), I’d say a little spring cleaning is in order . I’m happy to see that bear came up with a splendid idea on the Rythmik, but even that is 11 x 15-1/2 (and 20” high). For subwoofers, size really does matter. In order for a sub to come close to that magical (and very difficult) 20 Hz frequency, one must be willing to compromise on size versus deep frequency response. The next most critical items to consider is placement and integration. A sub actually tells you where it should be placed, and that is via the subwoofer crawl test. If you have only one spot to place a very small sub, getting the most out of that sub is nearly impossible.

Yes, the Sunfire may indeed be an option. But if you notice, their specs do not give the +/- dB qualifier, so their frequency spec is not only useless, it’s a typical exaggeration. I do not trust any company that doesn’t give proper specifications. JL Audio has the new Dominion series (small sealed 8 and 10-inch subs), but you won’t get close to 20 Hz (think 30 Hz on the 8-inch and 25 Hz on the 10-inch). Sadly, your room size indicates that you won’t be getting any cabin gain. BTW, you can find the Dominion sizes and specs here: http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-po...ofers-dominion And while two subs won’t get you any deeper than one sub, it will smooth out the bass at the listening position and add 3-6 dB output.

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post #15 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I am very taken aback that all Rel models are now made in China. It is okay they are made there but the prices do not reflect that. For less money I am sure i can get something at least as good. I do not need bass I can feel just reinforcement of the speakers. That is where Rel was good they had a way of crossing over completely seamlessly. I have heard many say other subs cannot disappear like that. I will not be buying a rel now because of what I just stated.I will check out the ones above. I can also check out B&W. I see those SVS cylinder subs but is says it is 16 inches. It does not look that big. Must be though. Also very expensive. I will be perfectly honest that I would prefer if possible to avoid made in china altogether. It is okay if the price is fair. Rel's prices do not reflect where it is made. There prices are outrageous for that. Their markup must be 95%. They are using slave labor and then selling it for more money than the made in Gb,UK ones were. That disgusts me. It is not china at all that bothers me. It is greedy companies.

I appreciate your help here everyone that replied.
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post #16 of 34 Old 03-02-2016, 08:05 PM
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Its tough to beat JL Audio if you need a sub in a small box if you can afford the premium price they command.

I've had several (fairly expensive) B&W subs. I'd avoid them. They don't perform up to their price point.

SVS makes good subs. They are worth a look.
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post #17 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yes, I know JL well. In 1986 I had a competition car. It had 6 10" pro JL subs in some special boxes I don't remember the name for it. Each one had a 500 watt Fosgate amp. At the time is was the most powerful you could get get. Seriously even back then that car made me ill with good reason. I will certainly check out their subs now. I am just done with Rel. Sumiko took over and now I personally feel it is just greedy. The T5i is honestly a $400 sub anywhere else. I bet even the sunfire will whoop it. However I read elsewhere sunfire is for HT not music. Of course I understand those here are mostly into HT. I came here because of my new TV. I know many of you probably have two channel systems as well though. You guys have been a great help here in fact. Thank you all.
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You might want to think about the performance of subs beyond the simplistic "good for music" idea. An accurate sub is an accurate sub. Sunfire isn't what it was under Bob Carver, personally I wouldn't bother. If you don't want Chinese, SVS may not work for you either. For small potent (and pretty) subs hard to beat JL and Velodyne if you don't mind their pricing. Maybe the Outlaw M8 might suit you. Might want to take a look at data-bass.com, starting with the bass myths
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I do not know where SVS is made. I am just guessing Velodyne is also made in China too? I don't hate Chinese at all. I just feel it is companies saying we will make as much money as we can off of our customer. They implement slave labor and then reap the profits. I just feel that is unfair. In fact i am more of an advocate for Chinese workers. The only reason they do not want to make things in US or Europe is simply so they can turn more profit. I think that speaks volumes about a companies motives. no doubt those subs are mostly fine and of high quality. I just do not feel it is fair to the consumer or the people that make it. We should not discuss politics here okay. I am just saying It is a companies way of saying all we care about is our profits. Sure, that is free enterprise but also sort of cheating. I do not question the products quality in most cases though. they are mostly fine. I just personally do not want to make a company rich with my own money. If it is made in china just pass the savings right to the consumer that's all. Rel did not lower their prices which were quite frankly outrageous when they were made in the UK. Making them in China for those prices with mediocre specs just shame on them. I will not say this stuff in the rel thread because I know I will be labeled a Troll. It is just my personal feeling about how I wish to spend my own money. If you make it in china please reflect the cost. That's all.

Other than that I dig that SVS cylinder sub. Very expensive which is fine with me. However it says it is 16 inches in diameter. It doe snot look that big but it must be. I am sure from the specs that thing is darn powerful. However, as I said I do not wish to feel the bass. Just reinforcement of the lower frequencies. I see some of these things go down to 15HZ flat. Of course they are much bigger than I can utilize. I did move the furniture as far as I can. just no room. !2 inches wide it pretty much it or the door will not open. I do not mean to be a jerk but I don't know this is "huge". it is one of the smallest rooms in the home. Not to mention i jammed it full of furniture. Funny thing My buddy came over and he asked the measurements of this room. I told him and he said it looks much smaller than that. I said yeah look how much stuff is in here. I wouldn't call myself a hoarder. Unless people hoard nice furniture.

Someone please tell me where Velodyne is made. they look good. They actually have the perfect thing. Also not cheap but fine with me. I am going to check out SVS right now. Something is strange about Velodyne though. It says the list price is like 2 grand on one or something I forgot exactly. Then I see it on amazon for $650? With Rel the price is the same everywhere. I think they also have exclusive dealer agreements. I just now find that very shady. In a free market prices should be up to the vender. not mandated by the manufacturer. You can tell I am done with Rel right? The thing is of course The Rel tech said the new one is much better than mine with much worse specs. Okay, sure. I do obviously need more power in this room. Don't know how I am going to get it from an 8 inch sub. that one that has two 8 inch stacked might work. I do not have a height restriction that's for sure.
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post #20 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Velodyne is made in China. See, in this case that is fine with me because the price is fair for what you get. as I said I am not at all against made in China so long as there is no price gouging. It has a cast aluminum basket whereas mine has a stamped steel. I am not sure that makes the sole difference. I am looking at the Optimum plus 8 inch. It goes to 26HZ at -3DB. Mine is rated at 23HZ at -6DB. It honestly goes to 18HZ at -6DB however. which is simply amazing given it's size. The tech at Rel told me their older measurements where not completely accurate. This time in my favor amazingly. I do have it slot loaded so perhaps that accounts for the difference I am getting in room. It will go all the way to 2HZ at -60DB before there is no sound.

I am not sure what difference the Aluminum basket makes but as I understand that is an upgrade. The cone is also Kevlar VS. paper. I am not understanding how it puts out 2400 Watts though. That sems impossible. Perhaps for a fraction of a second.In an 8 inch i also prefer down firing but I understand front firing is better too.

My main goal is to go lower though. I cannot find a calculator online that does what I need though. So could someone just please tell me if 26HZ at -3DB is lower than 18HZ at -6DB? or even the rated 23HZ at -6DB? I take it this sub is an upgrade regardless but not sure how musical it is given it is aimed at HT.. Just trying to figure if in fact it does go lower. If that is the case for $650 I'll get it in a snap for that price..

On a side note it seems Rel was just a different kind of company when Richard Edmund Lord.owned it. When Sumiko purchased it it seems they restructured with profit as the main goal. Can't blame there although I am sure now there are better subs. Just not sure the Velodyne is in fact better than what I have. It certainly fits the bill. In dimensions at least. There is not much that will fit including nothing from SVS. I even have a $700 Speakon cable on the Rel. So I do have an investment in it but better is better. If in fact it is.

Just wondering how to convert those measurements. Although if it is better in general it does not really matter. Close enough i suppose. not sure about their high level connection either. Which is how I gather I want it connected for music only.

I aplogize that I have made a big deal out of this but I don't really know about what I am looking at. I appreciate everyone's patience here. There seems to be pretty much that Velodyne and thats it. So it is that or keep what I have. Don't get me wrong mine serves me well. Just have the upgrade bug. Velodyne at least is a good example of fair prices for made in China. It lists for like 2 grand but can be had for $650. Perfectly fair. Rel on the other hand I feel is not at all anymore. On that note Sumiko's own subs which are Rel clones are even more grossly overpriced also encompassing price fixing.. Even Sonus Faber has sold out under Sumiko. I honestly hate that company now.

If this Velodyne is indeed an upgrade this story has come to an end. Or I keep what I ave that's it.

Thank you guys.

Edit: Gets good reviews. No B&M dealers. Expensive to ship back if need be. I'll wait to hear what you guys say. I do see a lot of used ones for sale if that says anything. I am interested if it does go lower given what I stated above. Overall the specs are much better but that does not necessarily equate to sound of course. It is class D switching amp so there is your 2400 Watts. My Rel is class A Mosfet with Torroid Psu. Only 100 real watts. Interested if cast basketis a big deal. Perhaps not at only 8".

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post #21 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 05:24 AM
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I am going to recommend the F8 Rythmik dual 8" sub again. Rythmik's subs are exceptionally high quality and I am willing to bet that sub will perform better than you expect. It would be my top choice by a long shot with your size constraints.

If you had 14" width available you can fit their dual 12" driver sub, the L22.
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post #22 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 10:21 AM
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I know that you’ve said several times that you don’t want to “feel” the bass, you just want to support the bass. In critical listening it is important not to notice a subwoofer present, but the fact is the artist may have inserted underlying deep bass via a synthesizer that you are unaware that it even exists. I’m not sure what music you listen to, but if it is jazz and classical, there won’t be deep bass that you will feel (but upper bass may give you a bit more definition or slam), unless you listen to pipe organs. I’m not sure how deep your speakers go with solid output, but if it’s in the mid 30 Hz range, that will cover most instruments and I understand your desire to support that.

Obviously, I can only tell you what I was looking for. I like classical, and I really like pipe organ music. I also like many artists that use synthesizers to get their message across. I too did not want to notice that a subwoofer was present, yet I wanted to find out what I was missing. Turns out, I was missing more than I ever thought possible with the music I play. And 16 Hz pedal notes you will FEEL (and will hear cycle separation with good subs). For other genres that incorporate synthesizers, a whole new world was opened for me. And yes, I wouldn’t know a subwoofer was present because I cross my sub over very low. I was only looking to reproduce what my speakers could not. Your usage may be similar or quite different, but in order to hear an improvement in such a large volume, don’t go too small or too cheap.

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post #23 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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My usage is indeed likewise to yours. Very high end 2 channel system but very limited room. I am tending to agree now on the F8 Rythmik dual 8" sub is the only logicl upgrade given my space constraints. Height is not an issue. It is honestly difficult to find an upgrade for the UK made small Rel. It is really more of a "woofer" than subwoofer. It goes plenty low but you do not know it is there. Just seems like biger speakers. Luckily my only choice of location turned out to be a very good one. I heard a MJ Acoustics. Also grossly overpriced. That should be $400. They are guys that left Rel to start their own company. Like Rel they are way overpriced. At least Afaik MJ is still made in the UK. Whereas Rel no longer is. Either way both command prices far beyond their performance and perceived value. I think I will just get the Rythmik and This is all taken care of. The only thing I wanted was at least same quality sub as I currently have but goes lowwer. Sure as I said mine will reach 2HZ. At -60DB. That is not of much use of course. Realistically it does not go any lower than my speakers which are solid to 35HZ. So with the crossover at 40HZ it is not doing much in fact. It does provide the reinforcement I desire but like you I wish to be hearing what I am not. Also Classical,Progressive Jazz and Easy listening. No hard rock or anything. That requires much more oomph than I have room for and I do not even listen to it. I am guessing the Rythmikis right up my alley. I will just go order it as there is no dealer here. Of course from a place with a return policy just in case. I am confident it goes lower than mine though. 2 subs is not really additive except effectively being in the same enclosure they are. Simply more cubic space as well should do the job. Of course most companies claims of low end are inflated regardles since it is the main selling point. There is not really a way around a larger sub but the Rythmik has approached this challenge in a different manner which I gather does work very well.
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post #24 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 11:34 AM
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You are at a major disadvantage if you live in the U.K. REL is huge in the U.K., and makes some beautiful subwoofers, and if one goes back a decade or so, they deserved their praise. But things have changed in the subwoofer world, and changed a lot. But shipping to the UK is very costly. I suspect SVS has a supplier there, so if you can get their cylinder sub in your desired location, they may have a return policy if you’re not satisfied (but do check on that).

However, if you live in the U.S. you have many different alternatives, plus shipping is usually free (part of their pricing structure), and several pay return shipping (a huge peace of mind). But no matter which company you decide to buy from, research their return policy and their warranty. You certainly don't want to be stuck with a subwoofer that isn't doing what you had hoped.

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post #25 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Indeed. In the US. I will only buy from companies with a return policy. I feel otherwise is bogus. The cylinder seems great but it will not fit.

I mentioned that about REl. The subs from the era when MR Lord owned the company mostly trump all of their subs of today. Of course Sumiko will say otherwise because they want to sell them. Rel made some fantastic subs until about 2004. Unfortunately mine is just too small but it is darn good for a smaller room. The Rythmik seems to be my only answer. They built upwards instead of sideways. So that should work and go lower as I wish for. It is Chinese but priced fairly for what you get. So as I also said that is fine with me. Today's Rel is unfairly priced in my opinion being made in china as well. I do not mind China but please pass on the savings and do not try to rip us all off.
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post #26 of 34 Old 03-03-2016, 05:48 PM
 
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Man I'd hate to have to listen if your wife/girlfriend ditched you!

I don't think REL ever made a particularly great sub, but they didn't have much competition at one point either (and many "audiophiles" will gravitate towards the brand on reputation alone). I wonder how well Sumiko is doing with Rel these days? Old Mr Lord may have extracted a punishing price? OTOH people usually don't buy luxury brands to then price them normally....
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post #27 of 34 Old 03-04-2016, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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It has been said I have a way of driving people nuts lol. In that regard my wife is too patient. Anyways I really dislike Sumiko. Again, i have nothing against China. Just that luxury brands are not usually equated with that region. I don't think they are having trouble selling them though. Honestly MR Lord did really have something. However it was really a woofer and not a subwoofer! Now as for the guys that split Rel to start their own company....Not sure where they get their frequency response. Maybe from rabbits in hats. Okay, this is exactly why I drive people nuts. We do not have to discuss this any further though. You guys provided me with the information I requested and I thank all that replied.
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post #28 of 34 Old 03-09-2016, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well ill be darned! You can run a sub wireless. I am now running the ML Balance force 212. This, is one heck of a sub. I had no idea i would end up with one this large due to wireless connectivity. It is under a table on the other side of the room. Glad bass is non directional. With it tucked under the table everything worked out great. I can say there is no comparison to my Rel. Obviously, I went to a much larger sub. It's done!
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post #29 of 34 Old 03-09-2016, 11:54 PM
 
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That's a very expensive dual opposed 12" sub for what it offers performance-wise IMO (good performance, but not stellar for the price, hope you got a killer deal). Glad you're happy, though. I've had wireless subs for years, you can also adapt pretty much any sub with a suitable wireless transmitter/receiver kit.
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-10-2016, 04:55 AM
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I thought we had another retail brand audiophile almost seeing the light. Foiled at the last moment!
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