ELAC Debut S12EQ Subwoofer Review - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Here are words speaking to your concern, directly from Andrew...

"What we are doing is to equalize the listening position response to match the Nearfield response. Since the same mic is used for both measurements then it's actual performance cancels out, it only needs to have some response down to the lowest frequencies, which in practice most mics do.

We don't even have to know in absolute terms what the Nearfield actually is: we just know that from a design point of view that it represents what the design engineer intended the performance to be. Measuring in the Nearfield eliminates the room from the measurement, and in practice is how most engineers measure a subwoofer since even the best available anechoic chambers are not fully accurate at subwoofer frequencies. It's actually a very neat trick to get around the practical problems of calibrating a sub.

We don't need to know the microphone response and we don't even need to know the subwoofer response!! We do however have to assume it was well designed in the first place." - Andrew Jones


The EQ seemed accurate enough for what it needed to do.

As for REW graphs, all anyone has to do is ask (preferably nicely) and I'll always share in a comment what I describe in the review. Hope this helps...

were these done with the phone or with an external mic? id like to see how the 2 directly compare
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post #62 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post
were these done with the phone or with an external mic? id like to see how the 2 directly compare
That chart was made with the UMIK-1 and REW. You can compare it to the (much less detailed) charts from the ELAC app, which nonetheless manage to communicate what the EQ is doing.




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post #63 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 08:34 AM
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My take on the cell phone calibration is that the software "calibrates" the near field measurements as "reference" and makes EQ adjustments based on the measurements from the MLP. This is very much like profiling a cheaper/quicker colorimeter (i1 Display Pro) to a more expensive/slower spectrometer (i1 Pro) for display calibration.

The take away is not that the "field" device is accurate, it is that the measurements are repeatable and offset by a "reference" device. Based on the use, the phone's mic should be more than adequate for the EQ calibration generated in the app *if* the measurements are repeatable.

No where have I seen Mark say the phone's mic is equal to that of the UMIK-1. However, I do feel that Mark was comfortable with the results when he did an A/B comparison.


Edit... Now I see the quote above from Andrew Jones explaining what I tried to in more detail...

Last edited by slosvt; 03-08-2016 at 09:58 AM.
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post #64 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Freewheeler View Post
Ok, I was wrong and I'm sorry. My information came from a local AV test site that stated the elements were just the opposite way. Please delete my posts, I won't bother you anymore. Have a nice day.
Hi Freewheeler. I want to jump in to this thread and thank you for your apology. It's easy to get misguided when there is wrong information out there on the "internets"! and it's rare for someone to apologize. Thanks again.

I would however like to take the opportunity to emphasize that I have never "lent" my name to any company to put onto their products. Starting with Pioneer, the agreement I had for the use of my signature specifically stated that it only went on products that I had not only designed but had also specifically signed off on at pre-production as meeting my quality standard.
This is just as true of the product that I design now that I work at ELAC. I am not freelance; I work for ELAC. All speaker designs that carry my name are ones that I have conceived and engineered and approved.
I should add that I am having tremendous fun in my new role :-)

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post #65 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Hi Freewheeler. I want to jump in to this thread and thank you for your apology. It's easy to get misguided when there is wrong information out there on the "internets"! and it's rare for someone to apologize. Thanks again.

I would however like to take the opportunity to emphasize that I have never "lent" my name to any company to put onto their products. Starting with Pioneer, the agreement I had for the use of my signature specifically stated that it only went on products that I had not only designed but had also specifically signed off on at pre-production as meeting my quality standard.
This is just as true of the product that I design now that I work at ELAC. I am not freelance; I work for ELAC. All speaker designs that carry my name are ones that I have conceived and engineered and approved.
I should add that I am having tremendous fun in my new role :-)

Andrew
Hi Andrew and thanks for your kind and understanding reply. I really do love my Elacs. I've got a pair of FS 247 BE's, a FS 241 center and FS something smaller at the back of my living room theater set. I even have a pair of older BS 123's that I love in my tube driven stereo set. So I was in no way suggesting that you do only marketing stuff as I do for my living... Anyway I really like the new S12 EQ, it needs a lot of hours to burn it in but I'm getting better movie sounds than my former SVS sub already. Cheers from Finland :-)
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post #66 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post
My take on the cell phone calibration is that the software "calibrates" the near field measurements as "reference" and makes EQ adjustments based on the measurements from the MLP. This is very much like profiling a cheaper/quicker colorimeter (i1 Display Pro) to a more expensive/slower spectrometer (i1 Pro) for display calibration.

The take away is not that the "field" device is accurate, it is that the measurements are repeatable and offset by a "reference" device. Based on the use, the phone's mic should be more than adequate for the EQ calibration generated in the app *if* the measurements are repeatable.

No where have I seen Mark say the phone's mic is equal to that of the UMIK-1. However, I do feel that Mark was comfortable with the results when he did an A/B comparison.


Edit... Now I see the quote above from Andrew Jones explaining what I tried to in more detail...
Let me emphasize again the process I am using for the "calibration" process.
When we think of calibration, we generally assume that we have one device that is perfectly known and is used to then measure another device. In this case one would assume a perfectly known microphone being used to measure the response of a subwoofer.

However, lets stop and think for a moment: How do we measure a microphone? we need a known sound source. But how do we know what the sound source does? we need a known microphone!!!! Suffice to say there are ways using the reciprocity theorem that get us around this conundrum.

So, knowing this, how do we use an unknown microphone to "calibrate" an unknown source?

First, we don't actually calibrate anything! Not the speaker, not the microphone, nothing!
Second, we don't make a measurement that tells us what the speaker response actually is!

What we do is assume that the response that was engineered into the subwoofer by the designer (in this case....Me :-) ), is the response that you want to hear, unencumbered by the effects of the room.

Given this, all we have to do is make two measurements, one close to the subwoofer where the room has almost zero effect, and one at the listening position. Now we simply apply EQ until the second response curve matches the first. Bingo.... no need to know what that curve should actually look like, no need to know what the microphone does.

Some conditions:
The mic has to be able to respond with some sufficient signal to noise ratio down to the lowest frequencies.
The nearfield level must be such that the mic does not overload but high enough that we get sufficient s/n ratio.

This does not make the subwoofer "better" than the designer intended. It does not apply EQ to extend the response to be flatter and wider than the designer intended. It just lets you hear what the designer wanted you to hear. If that's not the sound you like, you should pick a different designer!! ;-)

If you still feel that you should be using a "better" microphone, then go and buy the Dayton plug in mic available from parts express. It will plug directly into the 3.5mm socket on your phone. It may make you feel better about the process.

I hope this explanation clarifies our approach to calibration.
I'm sure I'll hear from all of you if it doesn't! :-)

Andrew
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post #67 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 01:24 PM
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Awesome info Andrew, and it makes perfect sense........... Loving my B5s by the way (just had to throw that in there)
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post #68 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 02:12 PM
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[QUOTE=markus767;42198241]"it only needs to have some response down to the lowest frequencies, which in practice most mics do" – pretty vague. How do I know that my particular phone is one of "most mics"?

Markus, I hope I answered this question in my posted replies, but as I said, there is nothing to stop you from adding the plug-in Dayton mic should you wish to. As you can see from marks measurement, the mic in his phone responded pretty well down to low frequencies. If when you make the nearfield measurement you see a curve that looks reasonably smooth and flat down to around 30Hz with just some roll-off below that, then you can be reasonably assured that the mic is good enough.

Inverting a single point in space doesn't work if the response is non-minimum phase. Furthermore optimizing just a single point might make other locations worse.
Again, modal EQ needs to be very precise. What might look like a broad and shallow peak requires a very narrow notch.
Agreed. But I don't mathematically invert a single point measurement. I don't believe in doing that. First, if the response in-room is not minimum phase then inversion would not be a reasonable thing to do. Even if it is minimum phase (I believe that Toole showed that it is, but I need to cite the reference) a true inversion can be catastrophic because of trying to fully equalize the nulls.
I'm not trying to solve all the ills of the room interaction. If you have room problems, then the simple answer is fix the room! However, I know that most people will not or cannot do that. What does that then leave us with? Subwoofer placement and/or multiple subs. Freedom of placement is not available to a lot of folks either.
So, is there some easy fix that will work better than nothing?
Many receivers have some form of auto EQ, but in the low frequency range some of them do a poor job.
Many room correction algorithms try to average over a number of locations. I'm not a big believer in that approach for a single sub, because you end up nether fully fixing one preferred location nor fixing location to location variation, and so end up with potentially worse results for some of the locations.
In a simple system, I prefer to fix for one location and to use just gentle EQ, parametric equalization. It won't fully pull down the peaks or pull up the dips, but it will be better than nothing and being minimum phase it will improve the time response as well as the frequency response.

andrew
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post #69 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
My PR sub I remove the thing every two years and rotate it 180 degrees to keep the suspension from sagging at an angle--but it is vertical so that helps. The Elac does not go deep so it would probably not have a heavily weighted PR to prevent too much sag I guess.

Any way you could measure the sag upside down and right side up? It would be interesting to see what it actually does with that test.
You are correct about the amount of mass that I use in the passive. It is much lower than in a convention passive radiator that is designed according to the "rules" for an optimally designed passive radiator passive speaker. However this is an active system with inbuilt EQ. I was therefore able to bend the rules and use a different ratio of mass/stiffness for the passive radiator and then apply EQ. The result is that I do not get much sag. I just re-measured this to give you some quick idea. Total change in cone position from upside down to right side up measured 3.3mm, so -1.5mm compared to if the passive was mounted facing forward. This is very small compared to the total travel of the passive radiator.
Of course, this was a quick test and does not account for long term creep. I don't expect to see much, but I'll get back to you in a few years with that result..... LOL


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post #70 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 02:51 PM
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1.5 mm of sag is not bad,

About what an active aluminum cone automotive sub does when mounted horizontally. Not bad, must have very little weight on it (as you stated) tuned higher but let active EQ do the rest.

Added bonus, if you have hardwood floors--lay it on it's side so the PR will shake the floor for added physical effect. Any plans on coming out with dual PR subs in the future? It is good to see passive radiators showing up again although some companies call them weird names (KEF cough, cough)
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post #71 of 96 Old 03-08-2016, 05:59 PM
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Clarification on my comments about Android 6.0 updates on non-Nexus devices

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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
First of all Marshmallow is being installed on a host of other than Nexus phones currently but it remains in the small majority still, it simply takes longer for carrier branded phones to receive the update due to their testing requirements, plus Google likes to showcase their latest OS via their newest Nexus phones. It's a practice not a policy. I went to the play store to check out the comments, and found the latest 3 commenting as you do having problems, 2 specifically mention a Nexus device, so I wonder if it's a Nexus or a Marshmallow problem.?
I didn't mean to imply non-Nexus devices would never get the Android 6x upgrade, but that Google's devices will always be first, ahead of the other Android devices from other manufacturers. In fact Nexus devices began getting the 6.0 update about five months ago. Sure other devices will eventually get the 6.0 update this year, but Nexus Android is already at 6.0.1. Nexus devices will also be first to get 6.0.2 or Android 6.1 this year, and the first to get updates forever. And while it may seem nice to say it takes longer for carrier branded phones to receive the updates much later because of QA testing issues, it also takes longer for the carriers and manufacturers to junk up the newest OS with their proprietary stuff.

Since the ELAC debut speakers were released to the public for the first time last October, and Google released the Android 6.0 update the very same month, you will understand the answer to your question re is it Nexus or Marshmallow issue? It is Marshmallow for sure.

Here is a good report on update schedules for the other Android devices.
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2016/02...ate-breakdown/

By the way, I purposely avoided using the term 'Marshmallow' instead choosing to use Android 6.0, because when a user checks the OS version on their device, the dessert names Google uses for the various versions is not shown: only the numeric. All Android 5x versions are aka as Lollipop, while all 6x versions are Marshmallow.

PS
I have been told recently by ELAC management that they are hard at work solving this 6x compatibility problem, hoping it will be solved very soon.
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post #72 of 96 Old 03-09-2016, 09:36 AM
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I thought i read from a few different respected posters on this forum its impossible to correct room nulls/modes with eq alone. you need room treatments etc...

now this review/product seems to totally debunk eq cant solve room modes

I am very interested as both my subs are very old. thanks for the review.

any opinions on how this elac sub would compare with my very old velodyne subs (hgs 12 and va1512)

audyssey xt32 doesnt correct for my 60hz null or maybe its just user error

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post #73 of 96 Old 03-09-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I thought i read from a few different respected posters on this forum its impossible to correct room nulls/modes with eq alone. you need room treatments etc...
If the null is directly associated to your room you can't fix it with EQ. Now matter how much you boost in that range the room will still win. In that case placement is one of your few legitimate options.

 
If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite...
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post #74 of 96 Old 03-09-2016, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I thought i read from a few different respected posters on this forum its impossible to correct room nulls/modes with eq alone. you need room treatments etc...

now this review/product seems to totally debunk eq cant solve room modes

I am very interested as both my subs are very old. thanks for the review.

any opinions on how this elac sub would compare with my very old velodyne subs (hgs 12 and va1512)

audyssey xt32 doesnt correct for my 60hz null or maybe its just user error
I state in my responses that I don't agree with trying to fix deep nulls. The EQ I apply is to help out with improving the performance when you cannot optimally locate the subwoofer or use multiple subs. No amount of EQ will totally negate the effects of a bad room, bad placement and single sub!

Andrew
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post #75 of 96 Old 03-09-2016, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I thought i read from a few different respected posters on this forum its impossible to correct room nulls/modes with eq alone. you need room treatments etc...

now this review/product seems to totally debunk eq cant solve room modes......



Not quite what happened torii, i.e., "correct" nulls with the EQ.

See here for the pertinent remarks from Mark:


Quote:
I took some basic measurements with REW to see how they correlated to my subjective listening experience. A close-mic'd sine-wave sweep (with EQ disabled) yielded a flat response, as one would hope. Another measurement taken at the listening position (again, with EQ disabled) revealed a sizable null centered around 55 Hz, and the output was 12 dB higher at 22 Hz than at 80 Hz.

After enabling Auto-EQ, a close-mic'd measurement showed a response curve that included a peak at 55Hz, indicating that it was attempting to compensate for the null. Another measurement from the listening position (with Auto-EQ enabled) showed a much flatter in-room response. While the null was still there (you can’t EQ your way out of one), it covered a much narrower range of frequencies that it did before calibration.

The REW readings matched up well with what the app reported it did: boost the frequencies surrounding the null (40-60 Hz) by 6 dB and attenuate frequencies below that by 6 dB.

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post #76 of 96 Old 03-17-2016, 06:43 PM
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I've been waiting for a well rounded review of this sub.
Thank you very much. This really makes the decision of getting one easy.
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post #77 of 96 Old 03-26-2016, 02:20 PM
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Question I don't understand prices

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Originally Posted by DustinF View Post
I've been waiting for a well rounded review of this sub.
Thank you very much. This really makes the decision of getting one easy.
I perfectly agree with DustinF...well I would agree..if prices in Europe were equivalent to US'.

To ELAC representatives: could you help me understand how the price increases from 700$ in USA, to 800€ in Germany and then to 830€ in Italy from lpaudio.it the official Italian reseller?
Is the product produced in China? If so, shipping it to europe or USA Should not justify an increase of more than 100€. And nowadays, European economy is not so wealthy compared to USA .. I don't understand.
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post #78 of 96 Old 03-29-2016, 09:35 PM
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This review comes out just when I was ready to pull the trigger on dual SB-2000's. Now what to do???
Wait for the review of the new Emotiva subs?
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post #79 of 96 Old 04-01-2016, 12:29 PM
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Regarding the single connection point, how would one connect a stereo amp that doesn't have a LFE output?
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post #80 of 96 Old 09-13-2016, 01:45 AM
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Very interesting review. Still loving my SVS PB-10 ISD as it seems better than even the one that replaced it going by the woofer design. Maybe they made amp improvements since then but have you guys seen the difference of the woofers. The newer PB-1000 looks far cheaper in design. Probably because it was made after the economy tanked in 2008.
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post #81 of 96 Old 12-06-2016, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
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Not explicitly, afaik. I will ask Andrew Jones what needs to be considered when EQing dual subs.
Hi Mark,

Thank you for the review. I was playing with the idea of replacing my PC-2000 with two of these, but this was the question I had as well and I didn't see you commenting about this any further in this thread - is there something specific that would be needed to be taken care of when using two of these?
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post #82 of 96 Old 02-18-2017, 11:58 AM
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Bumping this as I didnt readily find a S12 thread aside from this thread (which convinced me to buy the sub).

So after reading all the positives about this sub and reading through this thread, I decide to take the plunge and replace my polk 505. Currently, my "theater" consists of yamaha a760, elac c5 and f5s, onkyo atmos fronts and just some onkyo HTIB for surrounds (they work extremely well).

My problem is...I'm finding this sub EXTREMELY underwhelming and wondering if its either a) faulty or b) not being set up right.

I ran the yamaha auto eq first and then ran the elac eq for the sub. The elac eq is extremely quiet and boring (for lack of a better word). Even turning it up via the app, very lackluster. Turning the auto eq off produces more bass but its not as clear as one would expect. The AVR set the levl for the sub to -6.0 (Ive run it numerous times and it always dials it in right around there). I have my crossovers for the fronts at 80. It almost seems like only the passive driver it hitting and the front firing is doing nothing. Ive got the gain set to +3 in the AVR if that matters.

The currently sits in the corner of my living room, where the polk used to reside. The auto eq was supposed to make it so that there is no real need to move the sub around (my understanding at least).

The app is kind of crappy as it crashes often, doesnt let me set phase, etc. I run the sub in cinema which helps slightly.

Am I doing something wrong? The polk sounded far better, which makes me just a bit upset. I gotta be missing something.
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post #83 of 96 Old 03-12-2017, 04:23 AM
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Was considering an SVS SB-1000 to fill in the bottom end of my KEF LS50W but after hearing what the active EQ/DSP has done for them over their passive cousin this Elac has me intrigued.
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post #84 of 96 Old 03-12-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCG Mook View Post
Bumping this as I didnt readily find a S12 thread aside from this thread (which convinced me to buy the sub).

So after reading all the positives about this sub and reading through this thread, I decide to take the plunge and replace my polk 505. Currently, my "theater" consists of yamaha a760, elac c5 and f5s, onkyo atmos fronts and just some onkyo HTIB for surrounds (they work extremely well).

My problem is...I'm finding this sub EXTREMELY underwhelming and wondering if its either a) faulty or b) not being set up right.

I ran the yamaha auto eq first and then ran the elac eq for the sub. The elac eq is extremely quiet and boring (for lack of a better word). Even turning it up via the app, very lackluster. Turning the auto eq off produces more bass but its not as clear as one would expect. The AVR set the levl for the sub to -6.0 (Ive run it numerous times and it always dials it in right around there). I have my crossovers for the fronts at 80. It almost seems like only the passive driver it hitting and the front firing is doing nothing. Ive got the gain set to +3 in the AVR if that matters.

The currently sits in the corner of my living room, where the polk used to reside. The auto eq was supposed to make it so that there is no real need to move the sub around (my understanding at least).

The app is kind of crappy as it crashes often, doesnt let me set phase, etc. I run the sub in cinema which helps slightly.

Am I doing something wrong? The polk sounded far better, which makes me just a bit upset. I gotta be missing something.
I would try running the EQ on the Elac first, and then on your AVR (which should require less tweaking since the Elac's already done it.)
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post #85 of 96 Old 05-13-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill_B4 View Post
Was considering an SVS SB-1000 to fill in the bottom end of my KEF LS50W but after hearing what the active EQ/DSP has done for them over their passive cousin this Elac has me intrigued.
I just bought some LS50W (picked them up 10 days ago). Thinking about a sub to fill that bottom octave. What did you end up doing and how did it work?
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post #86 of 96 Old 07-29-2017, 09:03 PM
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were these done with the phone or with an external mic? id like to see how the 2 directly compare

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post #87 of 96 Old 07-29-2017, 09:33 PM
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After finding that video I'm sold. I'll take two.

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post #88 of 96 Old 07-29-2017, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Bumping this as I didnt readily find a S12 thread aside from this thread (which convinced me to buy the sub).

So after reading all the positives about this sub and reading through this thread, I decide to take the plunge and replace my polk 505. Currently, my "theater" consists of yamaha a760, elac c5 and f5s, onkyo atmos fronts and just some onkyo HTIB for surrounds (they work extremely well).

My problem is...I'm finding this sub EXTREMELY underwhelming and wondering if its either a) faulty or b) not being set up right.

I ran the yamaha auto eq first and then ran the elac eq for the sub. The elac eq is extremely quiet and boring (for lack of a better word). Even turning it up via the app, very lackluster. Turning the auto eq off produces more bass but its not as clear as one would expect. The AVR set the levl for the sub to -6.0 (Ive run it numerous times and it always dials it in right around there). I have my crossovers for the fronts at 80. It almost seems like only the passive driver it hitting and the front firing is doing nothing. Ive got the gain set to +3 in the AVR if that matters.

The currently sits in the corner of my living room, where the polk used to reside. The auto eq was supposed to make it so that there is no real need to move the sub around (my understanding at least).

The app is kind of crappy as it crashes often, doesnt let me set phase, etc. I run the sub in cinema which helps slightly.

Am I doing something wrong? The polk sounded far better, which makes me just a bit upset. I gotta be missing something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_B4 View Post
I would try running the EQ on the Elac first, and then on your AVR (which should require less tweaking since the Elac's already done it.)
That's right. Doing it the other way around is actually gonna screw things up big-time. Gotta EQ the sub first. The sub's EQ routine has no idea what EQ settings the AVR chose. Whereas the AVR knows what EQ settings the sub chose. So, you can only do it in that order if you want a good result.

Position still matters as far as actual output. EQ can help flatten response but does not make positioning totally irrelevant.

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post #89 of 96 Old 07-30-2017, 06:04 AM
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https://youtu.be/-WeOCdk23Dk

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The idea is valid but the problem is that the near field of a subwoofer in a room is NOT somewhere within 1ft as the software suggests. In fact the response varies quite a bit within a couple of inches. See http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/...ld%20Paper.pdf
That and the apparantly rather coarse frequency resolution of the measurements probably doesn't lead to good results. Don't get me wrong, it's probably "better than nothing" but how much better is that? You decide...

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Last edited by markus767; 07-30-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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post #90 of 96 Old 10-10-2017, 03:14 AM
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Great thread!! I'm considering upgrading from my Polk PSW505 sub, because I'm slowly upgrading all my speakers to ELAC Debut's. Can anyone tell me what I would get in terms of improved sound from the S12EQ vs the PSW505? Thanks in advance!
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