Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 3143 Old 07-17-2016, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Is it more difficult to blend the B1200 with sealed subs than ported? I have dual PSA S1500s cater-corner ~2' from the corners.

Any suggested test material to determine if mid-bass tactile response is lacking? I believe my mains should have good midbass. They have 2 8" carbon fibre woofs each with downfacing ports, -3dB @25Hz (Mirage OMD-28s). They are -10dB @18Hz but don't blend well with subs full range. X-over currently set @ 60Hz.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...pj6gp.97<br />



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No, both ported or sealed will typically require the same effort to integrate the 1200D.

Not sure if this will tell you if midbass is lacking, but it's certainly a great AB test if you trying to compare if your new setup has more midbass than the old:

Terminator Salvation: The opening credits, at the end of that when the Title shows up...that is my favorite midbass demo! Heart pounding midbass in that scene, and the 1200D really shined.
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post #332 of 3143 Old 07-17-2016, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I played around with new Sub locations today in anticipation of the MBM sub coming. Below are the graphs for both subs up front, no EQ, No Smoothing, and MV set to -20. Spot 6 is left side, and spot 7 is right side. I turned them facing wall because I got a slightly better reading that way.

Now I need to rerun some wires. I'm still not sure how best to setup the MBM sub with Audyssey XT32? I have the Denon X6200.

Not sure if I should run them all off of one output with the true subs LPF set to 40-50Hz, or split one True Sub with MBM and other on it's own output. Or run both true subs on one output and the MBM on the second output.

In any of the combinations above, would it be feasible to run one or both true subs with no LPF?

It would be nice if I could somehow run all subs off one and still use the second sub output (with no EQ) for shakers, but I don't think Audyssey will allow this.
As I mentioned above, I wouldn't apply an LPF and just let them blend together.

Check out this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post45361577

I would run off 1 sub out, get your phase and TR where you want it from the MBM perspective, and the tweak your other subs to get your FR correct. Then run Audyssey.
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post #333 of 3143 Old 07-17-2016, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
First, congrats on the 1200D!

As far as including an LPF, I wouldn't do it. I would just run it wide open. It should help flatten your FR potentially.

As I mentioned a few posts above, I would get the 1200D integrated (phase) with the HSUs so that you get the mid bass slam you're looking for and then adjust the HSUs EQ (if it has one), and then let audyssey run its course. I would also only use 1 sub out, and Y cable everything out of that. If you use two, Audyessy could change the relative phase/eq settings that you set prior to running audyssey. By just using one sub out, audyssey may adjust things, but it will keep the relative settings between your two HSUs and the MBM the same.

One comment though: you know you are going to be trading ULF TR for MBM TR, correct? I'm surprised that you were lacking midbass slam with the HSU right behind you. Leads me to believe that it may have been a setup issue (phase problem) between the two subs or Audyssey perhaps eq'd the midbass out of the rear.

As for as ULF TR, I have recently put in 4 Dayton Bass shakers set at 40Hz LPF.
The spot behind me shows a bad low frequency graph, but shows good Mid Bass. So I moved the Nearfield HSU to the spot that showed the best rise in low frequencies. This should help even everything out (I hope).


Dr. HSU recommended I do this awhile back when I sent him graphs. He said to put a ULS-15 behind me and move my current subs to the location with best low frequency rise. Then to cross both true subs to 45Hz LPF and set ULS-15 in MB mode.

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Last edited by Soupy1970; 07-18-2016 at 09:24 PM.
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post #334 of 3143 Old 07-17-2016, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
As I mentioned above, I wouldn't apply an LPF and just let them blend together.

Check out this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post45361577

I would run off 1 sub out, get your phase and TR where you want it from the MBM perspective, and the tweak your other subs to get your FR correct. Then run Audyssey.
Thanks, I will try with no LPF first.

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post #335 of 3143 Old 07-18-2016, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Terminator Salvation: The opening credits, at the end of that when the Title shows up...that is my favorite midbass demo! Heart pounding midbass in that scene, and the 1200D really shined.
Great, so now I need to put together a mid-bass demo disc.


Okay, I'll bite. I'll take suggestions and give it some thought.
New thread for that?
Michael
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post #336 of 3143 Old 07-19-2016, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Great, so now I need to put together a mid-bass demo disc.


Okay, I'll bite. I'll take suggestions and give it some thought.
New thread for that?
Michael
I think that's a great idea! Most demo disks are centered around the ULF range (wobble effect) but none around the kick in the chest, mid bass slam, leave your heart racing type effects.

Go for it...
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post #337 of 3143 Old 07-19-2016, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Terminator Salvation: The opening credits, at the end of that when the Title shows up...that is my favorite midbass demo! Heart pounding midbass in that scene, and the 1200D really shined.
Haha, awesome! Same here. I love that whole beginning. Looks and sounds awesome.
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post #338 of 3143 Old 07-23-2016, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
After following this thread about the Beringer 1200D subwoofer used as a mid bass module I became very interested in trying it out. I've always been interested in the idea of a near field MBM. Several others in the thread have multiple or a handful of large subwoofers in their room. I have six fifteens in my theater but never really had the mid bass I was looking for. I also have large mains with fifteen inch woofers. I have tried all sorts of different calibrations and crossovers. I even moved the entire room around which took me nearly two weeks to move everything and rewire the system. The sound improved but I still thought it could be even better. Especially in the music department.

A couple of days ago I got a Beringer 1200D subwoofer. Instead of placing it behind my couch I placed it on the wall just to the right side of my couch. That distance is about 2ft from the LP. The driver and ports are firing across the LP at your feet. I think this is a good way to place these subs versus a rear placement. Placing the MBM behind the couch will work. But I think the couch will act as an absorber. So some of the subs energy is wasted.

Next I got the subwoofer up and running. I was amazed at how well this subwoofer performs. It completely changed the way my system sounds. Now it has very accurate, tight mid bass. One of these subwoofers would of probably done fine. But I decided to add a second Beringer 1200D subwoofer. I placed the second MBM right next to the other one. Adding the second one just put the icing on the cake. Music sounds live. It has a very clean warm sound. You can feel the guitars and the drum kick as well. It wasn't that difficult to blend all of my other subwoofers with the two MBM's.

I highly recommend adding one of these MBM's to your system.
I just received a B1200D-PRO from the Crutchfield outlet ($255). It looks like someone returned it after seeing only XLR inputs. The manual and even the power cord were still sealed. The sub appears brand new, even the silica gel was still present in the sub's protective plastic.

Has anyone else noticed that this sub is designed to be stacked like Legos? @Secret Squirrel , have you tried vertical stacking vs side-by-side placement. I plan to experiment with a sidewall placement similar to yours. I'd like to try turning it upside down so that the ports closer to waist level. Either way, I would ultimately like to stack 2 or more. My ceiling is 8.5' so I could fit up to 6 of these MBMs in one stack if I wanted.

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post #339 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Great, so now I need to put together a mid-bass demo disc.


Okay, I'll bite. I'll take suggestions and give it some thought.
New thread for that?
Michael
Yay, I'm intersted. Who do I send the blank check to?
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post #340 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 12:07 AM
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I noticed the circular guides for stacking the subwoofers. I haven't tried stacking them yet but I might try it at some point. I would only try stacking them to save space. Having the ports close to the floor might help output depending on the room. Two pairs of my larger subwoofers are stacked on the back wall of my theater. I'm listing to music with my Beringer 1200D's right now. I really like these little subwoofers.
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post #341 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
Yay, I'm intersted. Who do I send the blank check to?
Great idea, but I'll settle for suggestions for demo material. I'll start a thread soon.
First track is opening credits of Terminator: Salvation (arriving via Netflix tomorrow).
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post #342 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I just received a B1200D-PRO from the Crutchfield outlet ($255). It looks like someone returned it after seeing only XLR inputs. The manual and even the power cord were still sealed. The sub appears brand new, even the silica gel was still present in the sub's protective plastic.

Has anyone else noticed that this sub is designed to be stacked like Legos? @Secret Squirrel , have you tried vertical stacking vs side-by-side placement. I plan to experiment with a sidewall placement similar to yours. I'd like to try turning it upside down so that the ports closer to waist level. Either way, I would ultimately like to stack 2 or more. My ceiling is 8.5' so I could fit up to 6 of these MBMs in one stack if I wanted.
^^^YES!!!

Congrats on a great deal...but more importantly, I love how you're thinking about stacking them vertically. That was something that I was actually thinking about...

My theory would be that vertically stacked MBMs (especially ported) will provide even MORE PR (Pressure Response: kick in the chest/midbass slam) because you are raising the directional Sound Intensity so that it directly aimed at your chest, head, etc. Tactile Response (TR: how much your couch vibrates) may also increase, but I would think that the PR would be the most noticeable.

You have my full support for you to buy another 1200D to try this out...
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post #343 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
My theory would be that vertically stacked MBMs (especially ported) will provide even MORE PR (Pressure Response: kick in the chest/midbass slam) because you are raising the directional Sound Intensity so that it directly aimed at your chest, head, etc. Tactile Response (TR: how much your couch vibrates) may also increase, but I would think that the PR would be the most noticeable.
Definitely could increase the midbass slam to your chest especially since the driver cone will be higher and closer to your chest. But I wonder in your setup, since you will probably gain SPL by stacking another on top, you may have to lower the gain a bit on both units (as opposed to being able to set the gain higher on just one) to avoid it possibly becoming a little to boomy, especially in that 45-60hz range. If this is the case, would two 1200D's with the gain a little less on both give you more chest slam verses one 1200D with a higher gain setting? Would be and interesting test for you. If the MBM's were pretty close to the back of your seat, the one stacked on top and closer to your upper back may give you more impact.

If boomyness became an issue though, you may be able to cancel out a bit of the SPL gain from the two combined MBM's a little bit though, kind of a like you did with your 30hz range and take advantage of those cones working harder and the extra slam without possibly becoming offensive to the ears with the extra SLP.

I tried a 1200D stacked on top of my one of my sealed 18's right behind me, kind of along your same line of thinking about stacking them, getting that driver a little higher. Unfortunately (at least for my setup), the SPL gain was a bit to much and got a little boomy if I didn't bring the gain down a bit on either the MBM or the sealed 18" and wasn't really able to phase out the SPL gain much. Either way, it kind of seemed to be a wash, with about the same amount of chest slam. Was fun experimenting though. I was curious. The 1200D is definitely a nice little unit that can provide a ton of chest slam!
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Yes, any time you stack you are gaining +6dB. You turn gain down and you gain more headroom.

I will see how well I can integrate the MBM before/if I add a second. Worse case scenario I can use the MBMs with my home PA system for parties.
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post #345 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
If boomyness became an issue though, you may be able to cancel out a bit of the SPL gain from the two combined MBM's a little bit though, kind of a like you did with your 30hz range and take advantage of those cones working harder and the extra slam without possibly becoming offensive to the ears with the extra SLP.
That's also another good test! 2 1200D's stacked on on top of another, but both perfectly 180 degress out of phase with one another. SPL should be very little, but PR and TR should be higher: get rid of the boominess (minimize SPL), but keep all the slam (maximize PR and TR). This would certainly work if they were the only two subs in your system...not sure what happens when you try and integrate that configuration with other subs...

Quote:
I tried a 1200D stacked on top of my one of my sealed 18's right behind me, kind of along your same line of thinking about stacking them, getting that driver a little higher. Unfortunately (at least for my setup), the SPL gain was a bit to much and got a little boomy if I didn't bring the gain down a bit on either the MBM or the sealed 18" and wasn't really able to phase out the SPL gain much. Either way, it kind of seemed to be a wash, with about the same amount of chest slam. Was fun experimenting though. I was curious. The 1200D is definitely a nice little unit that can provide a ton of chest slam!
What did you end up doing with the 1200D if not placed on top?
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post #346 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Definitely could increase the midbass slam to your chest especially since the driver cone will be higher and closer to your chest. But I wonder in your setup, since you will probably gain SPL by stacking another on top, you may have to lower the gain a bit on both units (as opposed to being able to set the gain higher on just one) to avoid it possibly becoming a little to boomy, especially in that 45-60hz range. If this is the case, would two 1200D's with the gain a little less on both give you more chest slam verses one 1200D with a higher gain setting? Would be and interesting test for you. If the MBM's were pretty close to the back of your seat, the one stacked on top and closer to your upper back may give you more impact.

If boomyness became an issue though, you may be able to cancel out a bit of the SPL gain from the two combined MBM's a little bit though, kind of a like you did with your 30hz range and take advantage of those cones working harder and the extra slam without possibly becoming offensive to the ears with the extra SLP.

I tried a 1200D stacked on top of my one of my sealed 18's right behind me, kind of along your same line of thinking about stacking them, getting that driver a little higher. Unfortunately (at least for my setup), the SPL gain was a bit to much and got a little boomy if I didn't bring the gain down a bit on either the MBM or the sealed 18" and wasn't really able to phase out the SPL gain much. Either way, it kind of seemed to be a wash, with about the same amount of chest slam. Was fun experimenting though. I was curious. The 1200D is definitely a nice little unit that can provide a ton of chest slam!
As you stack subs or raise them you change your modal response, accentuating midbass frequencies.
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post #347 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
That's also another good test! 2 1200D's stacked on on top of another, but both perfectly 180 degress out of phase with one another. SPL should be very little, but PR and TR should be higher: get rid of the boominess (minimize SPL), but keep all the slam (maximize PR and TR). This would certainly work if they were the only two subs in your system...not sure what happens when you try and integrate that configuration with other subs...
Good idea on running two of the 1200D's stacked and 180 degrees perfectly out of phase with each other. I agree that would be a great test. Actually I forgot that I did that with the 180 degree phase switch on the 1200D. I mainly messed with the distance for phase tweak when I was trying to reduce the combined SPL a little and leave the gain alone on the 1200D to keep that increased mid bass slam without the bit of boominess that it added. When I flipped the phase switch to reverse, oddly enough my FR (overall and also the nearfeilds (bank of 3 sealed 18's and the farfield on there own) looked about the same (FR on the 1200D did change a bit though). But it didn't sound the same. TR felt the same but the overall bass was quite a bit thinner sounding. I guess I was experiencing what you guys were discussing earlier in this thread about out of phase - less SPL but still have the TR. I probably should have up'd the gain on all subs to see what kind of TR brutality I could get out of it. Problem is I don't think I have enough subs and headroom to increase the gain a substantial amount without putting to much stress on everything. Maybe if I went from 4 to 8 subs or more. As is right now with the 4 subs (3 of them nearfield right behind me and a pretty hefty LS filter to lift the bottom end) it seems to be fine at my listening levels between -10 to 0 MV and subs about 6db hot on most movies.

The crazy thing is, by switching the phase on the 1200D, even though the FR looked basically the same, about half the bass sound was gone. Some times this stuff is so hard for me to wrap my head around. About the time I think I got the whole FR, TR, PR, nearfield and farfield stuff figured out, something like this happens. Dom, what you did with your 30hz peak reductions with the NF & FF subs with phase makes since to me. But what I was experiencing doesn't.

I've ran Audyssey XT32 several times over the last couple of months just playing around. Sometimes tweaking pre Audyssey with a miniDSP only using 1 Subout for all subs and also using 2 Subouts (farfield on one bank and the nearfields on the other bank). Both work very well and I'm usually quite pleased with the results. BUT, even though the overall FR and also the farfield and the nearfields FR by them selves look real similar, it usually always feels just a tiny bit different. I think some folks wouldn't notice it and might not even care, but I'm so used to certain demo scenes that I can always feel the minuet differences in TR. IMO I think that's one of the coolest things about the nearfield subs right behind the LP - whether its a true full range sub or an MBM, you can feel all the little nuances in the bass frequencies that they cover.

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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
What did you end up doing with the 1200D if not placed on top?

At the moment I dont have it hooked up at all, nor the FV15HP. I dont really feel like they add much if anything to what I already have running now, other than more headroom which is always good. I may play around with the 1200D and FV a bit more and try to integrate them into the mix a little better. I don't have the Cap any more.


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As you stack subs or raise them you change your modal response, accentuating midbass frequencies.
Well it definitely changed my response in the midbass area by raising it a little and accentuated it, hence the increased SPL in the midbass frequencies. It did increase chest slam a little but accompanied by a little boominess as well.

One thing I found quite interesting a while back when messing with these nearfield subs and raising the drivers up higher, is the effect on the sound and TR when raised vs. on the ground. I used to run a JTR cap2400 directly behind my seat and loved it. I was curious what it would feel like if I raised it up off the floor to up behind my upper back area instead of the driver firing into my low back/butt. When I did this FR stayed pretty much identical, but felt and sounded different. Midbass chest slam was better but it didn't sound as big or feel as big in the lower frequencies.

The most brutal and severe HT bass experience I've ever had is when I stacked two full range subs right behind me to get the best of both worlds (the JTR cap2400 on bottom and the Rythmik FV15HP on top). They were EQed together close to flat and then ran about 6-8db hot on a handful of big bass movies. Mad Max Fury Road bass was brutal and seriously punishing, leaving me feeling beaten and tingly all over. Although almost to much, its was awesome!! Here's an old crappy cell phone pic of that set up about a year ago ...



While that temporary set up would never pass WAF in the living room, it was ridiculously fun! But these 3 smaller sealed 18's nearfield do Pass the WAF (thanks wife!) and they do look a lot better I have to admit, its still not quite as brutal, but very close. If I could get away with it and have my way, I'd stack one more sealed 18" (two high) on top of each 18 behind the 3 main seats. Actually if I had my way, I'd put one of the new JTR 4000ULF's behind each seat I guess the wife has to draw the line somewhere LOL. Here's recent pic of the 3 sealed 18's behind the seats now ...



I gotta say, that as much as I love the really low ULF wobble sensation awesomeness and the gut punch 25-50hz stuff, I think I love the mid bass chest slam the most. IMO its just exhilarating and brings out the experience that much more. I'd hate to loose any of it though. Good times - I'm so glad I discovered this place and learned about nearfields, TT's, etc.
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post #348 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 09:41 PM
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Qty 2 used (great condition) B1200d at Guitar Center Orlando. $189/each

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Beh...r-112262607.gc

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Beh...r-112262608.gc
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post #349 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Qty 2 used (great condition) B1200d at Guitar Center Orlando. $189/each

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Beh...r-112262607.gc

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Beh...r-112262608.gc
Good find. Says it can be picked up at my local store in 3-7 days. My fingers starting to shake.
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post #350 of 3143 Old 07-24-2016, 10:53 PM
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Here is another potential (cheap) MBM for those who already own or can find one.

Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer

I have one in my master bedroom as the lone subwoofer. It fits under or behind my dresser or under the bed. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to fit under my theater seating due to the recline mechanisms. I'll try and post some REW captures. It seems to be tuned right at 40Hz as it rises sharply from 80Hz to a peak at 40Hz followed by a steep drop. I don't measure ±3dB 25Hz-150Hz, maybe -10dB.


Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer
MSRP - $499.99
Street price - $49 - $199

Dimensions - 23.1" x 17.5" x 4.9"
Item Weight- 29.4 lbs

Features:
ICE amplification
200 Watts RMS / 550 Watts Dynamic
Fits under/behind couch, entertainment center or other furniture
Frequency Response 25Hz-150Hz
10-Inch non-compressed paper cone provides stiffer construction
High performance compressor/Limiters for high dynamic output and low distortion

Description:
Spoiler!


Edit: I just read that the LFE input of the FPS10 has undefeatable EQ (40Hz), rumble filter (20Hz?), and low pass filter (80Hz?) (-all based on my measurements). I need to use the line in inputs to setup & test this sub properly. I will update this post after I re-measure.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 07-25-2016 at 02:59 AM.
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post #351 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Good find. Says it can be picked up at my local store in 3-7 days. My fingers starting to shake.
If you are not local to Orlando to pick up at that store they will charge you a bundle for shipping to your local store. Same charge as shipping to home. Sorry if I got your hopes up. 🤓

You could call the store to see if they can apply a more reasonable shipping charge.
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post #352 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
^^^YES!!!

Congrats on a great deal...but more importantly, I love how you're thinking about stacking them vertically. That was something that I was actually thinking about...

My theory would be that vertically stacked MBMs (especially ported) will provide even MORE PR (Pressure Response: kick in the chest/midbass slam) because you are raising the directional Sound Intensity so that it directly aimed at your chest, head, etc. Tactile Response (TR: how much your couch vibrates) may also increase, but I would think that the PR would be the most noticeable.

You have my full support for you to buy another 1200D to try this out...
I did some testing with the B1200d tonight (insomnia). The results were not what I expected .

Placing the MBM behind the MLP produced the best TR & PR at the MLP and all LPs for the most part. Placing against the side wall was dissapointing in comparison.

Turning the MBM upside-down produced no discernible or measurable difference. Raising the MBM 18" off of the ground was detrimental to performance. I believe this can be explained by the [lack of] boundary gain provided by the floor.

My main speakers have good TR below 60Hz but get very weak progressing up to 150Hz. My next step is trying to integrate the MBM with 2 PSA S1500s without a miniDSP. The room sim modelling looks promising based on my current placement. Luckily all 4 (2 balanced and 2 unbalanced) sub outputs on the Marantz AV7702mkII are all active simultaneously with enough voltage (XLR 2.4V) to light up the Clip indicator on the B1200d.

I'm going to try and integrate it all without a miniDSP but if you are using an unbalanced to balanced adaptor and can't light the clip indicator it would be a good idea to invest in the balanced miniDSP 2x4 to drive the B1200d XLR input.
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post #353 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 06:37 AM
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If you are not local to Orlando to pick up at that store they will charge you a bundle for shipping to your local store.
You're not kidding. $125 shipping, and tax on top of that.

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post #354 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 07:43 PM
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post #355 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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@SBuger , great comments above.

You're spot on about running Audyssey and it always changing the TR. It happens in my setup as well. What I did, was once I found the Audyssey mix that I liked, I just ran the FR of the nearfield FVs to see what kind of response I was getting. This then became my target nearfield curve. When EQing prior to Audyssey, I'd try and match that nearfield FR. Then, run Audyssey, and see what changes occurred to the nearfield FR, and then tweak.

But here's the thing: with VibSensor, we don't have to guess anymore! Any changes in TR should show up on the VS...perhaps PR may not, but certainly another tool in the tool box to see what's happening to TR after audyssey runs.

Give your INSANE TR/PR (triple 18s nearfield, crowsons) setup...yeah, I can see why it would be hard to integrate the 1200D and make it worth while...the other theory that I have which I haven't explored yet is that larger drivers also product more TR/PR than smaller ones. The larger driver expands the area of the "very nearfield" where PVL is most prevalent.

It could be that your larger 18in driver nearfield are providing that extra TR as a result...

@healthnut , did you ever run your 24 nearfield? Just curious...
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post #356 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Here is another potential (cheap) MBM for those who already own or can find one.

Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer

I have one in my master bedroom as the lone subwoofer. It fits under or behind my dresser or under the bed. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to fit under my theater seating due to the recline mechanisms. I'll try and post some REW captures. It seems to be tuned right at 40Hz as it rises sharply from 80Hz to a peak at 40Hz followed by a steep drop. I don't measure ±3dB 25Hz-150Hz, maybe -10dB.


Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer
MSRP - $499.99
Street price - $49 - $199

Dimensions - 23.1" x 17.5" x 4.9"
Item Weight- 29.4 lbs

Features:
ICE amplification
200 Watts RMS / 550 Watts Dynamic
Fits under/behind couch, entertainment center or other furniture
Frequency Response 25Hz-150Hz
10-Inch non-compressed paper cone provides stiffer construction
High performance compressor/Limiters for high dynamic output and low distortion

Description:
Spoiler!


Edit: I just read that the LFE input of the FPS10 has undefeatable EQ (40Hz), rumble filter (20Hz?), and low pass filter (80Hz?) (-all based on my measurements). I need to use the line in inputs to setup & test this sub properly. I will update this post after I re-measure.
Very cool! They don't seem to make it anymore, but very interesting design. Interested in those results...try using Vibsensor to measure TR...
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post #357 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
If you are not local to Orlando to pick up at that store they will charge you a bundle for shipping to your local store. Same charge as shipping to home. Sorry if I got your hopes up. 🤓

You could call the store to see if they can apply a more reasonable shipping charge.
No worries. I prefer to spend a little more and buy new for the peace of mind.
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post #358 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I did some testing with the B1200d tonight (insomnia). The results were not what I expected .

Placing the MBM behind the MLP produced the best TR & PR at the MLP and all LPs for the most part. Placing against the side wall was dissapointing in comparison.

Turning the MBM upside-down produced no discernible or measurable difference. Raising the MBM 18" off of the ground was detrimental to performance. I believe this can be explained by the [lack of] boundary gain provided by the floor.
Just curious, what were you expecting? Nearfield placement will typically provide the most TR. Perhaps you thought raising it might provide more PR? My guess is that it would provide more PR, but less TR since it looses a boundary. Sounds like it wasn't noticeable.

Have you tried your PSA's nearfield?
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post #359 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@SBuger , great comments above.



You're spot on about running Audyssey and it always changing the TR. It happens in my setup as well. What I did, was once I found the Audyssey mix that I liked, I just ran the FR of the nearfield FVs to see what kind of response I was getting. This then became my target nearfield curve. When EQing prior to Audyssey, I'd try and match that nearfield FR. Then, run Audyssey, and see what changes occurred to the nearfield FR, and then tweak.



But here's the thing: with VibSensor, we don't have to guess anymore! Any changes in TR should show up on the VS...perhaps PR may not, but certainly another tool in the tool box to see what's happening to TR after audyssey runs.



Give your INSANE TR/PR (triple 18s nearfield, crowsons) setup...yeah, I can see why it would be hard to integrate the 1200D and make it worth while...the other theory that I have which I haven't explored yet is that larger drivers also product more TR/PR than smaller ones. The larger driver expands the area of the "very nearfield" where PVL is most prevalent.



It could be that your larger 18in driver nearfield are providing that extra TR as a result...



@healthnut , did you ever run your 24 nearfield? Just curious...

I have not tried that yet. My theater room is under construction for a couple more months. Once it's completed, I'll test that out and report the results. The Mariana 24" is sealed, but it has a 4,000 watt amp. It'll be interesting to see how it does. I recently bought 3 Behringer 1200D's to go behind the seats after reading this thread. I have very high expectations!



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post #360 of 3143 Old 07-25-2016, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Just curious, what were you expecting? Nearfield placement will typically provide the most TR. Perhaps you thought raising it might provide more PR? My guess is that it would provide more PR, but less TR since it looses a boundary. Sounds like it wasn't noticeable.

Have you tried your PSA's nearfield?
I was trying to duplicate Secret Squirrel's setup. I was expecting more PR with the MBM along the side-wall firing across the LP. I was also hoping for more PR by raising the MBM, which would encourage me to try stacking at this location. TR, PR, and FR all were best behind the couch. The couch did not act as an absorber.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
A couple of days ago I got a Beringer 1200D subwoofer. Instead of placing it behind my couch I placed it on the wall just to the right side of my couch. That distance is about 2ft from the LP. The driver and ports are firing across the LP at your feet. I think this is a good way to place these subs versus a rear placement. Placing the MBM behind the couch will work. But I think the couch will act as an absorber. So some of the subs energy is wasted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Here are some pictures of my theater with the Beringer mid bass modules.
I have tried one of the PSA's nearfield but FR suffered greatly. I considered adding a 3rd PSA (15s or S3000i) but after experiencing great PR watching Disney's Planes with my son from his favorite position in front of my bed and a couple feet from the FRS10 I did more research and found this thread. I had only been concerned with ULF TR prior.
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