Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 3158 Old 10-18-2016, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
B1200D on Amazon right now for $271.88. I finally ordered one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I'm using two of them and their performance is incredible. They kick some serious arse. If you integrate them properly with calibration and placement they will take your system to a whole other level.
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post #632 of 3158 Old 10-18-2016, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
B1200D on Amazon right now for $271.88. I finally ordered one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Not sure there is anything else that is bigger bang for the buck than this...
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post #633 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
B1200D on Amazon right now for $271.88. I finally ordered one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Thanks. You know I will be waiting for your FULL report....
Well, not so much a "full" report since I just got the B1200D yesterday and set it up last night, but my first impression? O...M...F...G!!

I knew from reading this thread that the little 1200D could indeed make a difference even in systems with multiple, large subs...but I just wasn't expecting what I experienced last night.

I have 2 PSA T-18s (front corners) and 2 PSA S3000s (rear corners) and I have never felt mid-bass like this. I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D. It must be due to the ported design, that's all I can think of.

I haven't done any real setup yet, basically I just split the signal from one of my rear subs, plopped it down behind my chair and turned it on. Gain is set to 9:00 (level matched with the other rear subs, 75dB @ MLP), boost at 65hz (straight up), phase at 0. Still need to get out the REW rig and measure the response, but not really sure if I want to...it sounds so good now, and if I see an ugly graph I may change things so that it doesn't anymore.

Played a bunch of music, and then bass clips from the AVS demo discs. Music sounded great! The mid-bass was much more "punchy" than before, but not overwhelming or localize-able. Playing the movie clips was when I couldn't get a silly grin off my face! Even giggled out loud a few times.

Everest, the storm arrives scene literally shook my chair & body like never before...I think I have finally experienced the "wobble" effect you all talk about. Felt like my breath was pulsating in and out of my lungs instead of a smooth stream, if that makes sense. And this was at only -10MV (usually listen around -15 to -12).

My first thought after playing with it for a couple hours? "I need 4 or 5 more of these things!"
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post #634 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, not so much a "full" report since I just got the B1200D yesterday and set it up last night, but my first impression? O...M...F...G!!

I knew from reading this thread that the little 1200D could indeed make a difference even in systems with multiple, large subs...but I just wasn't expecting what I experienced last night.

I have 2 PSA T-18s (front corners) and 2 PSA S3000s (rear corners) and I have never felt mid-bass like this. I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D. It must be due to the ported design, that's all I can think of.

I haven't done any real setup yet, basically I just split the signal from one of my rear subs, plopped it down behind my chair and turned it on. Gain is set to 9:00 (level matched with the other rear subs, 75dB @ MLP), boost at 65hz (straight up), phase at 0. Still need to get out the REW rig and measure the response, but not really sure if I want to...it sounds so good now, and if I see an ugly graph I may change things so that it doesn't anymore.

Played a bunch of music, and then bass clips from the AVS demo discs. Music sounded great! The mid-bass was much more "punchy" than before, but not overwhelming or localize-able. Playing the movie clips was when I couldn't get a silly grin off my face! Even giggled out loud a few times.

Everest, the storm arrives scene literally shook my chair & body like never before...I think I have finally experienced the "wobble" effect you all talk about. Felt like my breath was pulsating in and out of my lungs instead of a smooth stream, if that makes sense. And this was at only -10MV (usually listen around -15 to -12).

My first thought after playing with it for a couple hours? "I need 4 or 5 more of these things!"
Awesome!! Glad to hear its making such a difference ...it really is amazing what this little thing can do for the feeling in the chest when its behind your chair!! This thing is going to want to make you watch all your favorite movies again. I've been having a blast watching all the Marvel's again recently.

LOL ..yeah I've been thinking about adding more of these myself, one behind each chair (not just MLP) because it definitely gives the strongest feeling in the chest for which ever chair it is behind IME.

Looking at the posted graphs and my own graphs, I'm thinking this thing might be tuned more towards 45hz or so instead of 55-60hz. That's OK though if that's the case ..it still can create crazy pressure in the chest. I'm still finding that feeling is strongest in the 55-68ish area for me just by running various movie scenes and then bumping the 1200D at certain frequencies with the MiniDSP. Cant imagine what this thing would be like if it was ported a little higher in that area, if indeed it is tuned a little lower than we originally thought.
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post #635 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
my first impression? O...M...F...G!!

I knew from reading this thread that the little 1200D could indeed make a difference even in systems with multiple, large subs...but I just wasn't expecting what I experienced last night.

I have 2 PSA T-18s (front corners) and 2 PSA S3000s (rear corners) and I have never felt mid-bass like this. I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D. It must be due to the ported design, that's all I can think of.

it sounds so good now

Playing the movie clips was when I couldn't get a silly grin off my face! Even giggled out loud a few times.

Everest, the storm arrives scene literally shook my chair & body like never before...I think I have finally experienced the "wobble" effect you all talk about. Felt like my breath was pulsating in and out of my lungs instead of a smooth stream, if that makes sense. And this was at only -10MV (usually listen around -15 to -12).
Ok, that's enough, I am getting one knowing you would do anything whether tweaking after tweaking or adding more subs to bring your system up a notch. I don't remember reading these very positive notes I quoted above from you. One question: did the improvement
from this 1200d more pronounce than adding the s3000 pair?

Edit: make it 2 questions: sound quality improves, the same or worse?
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post #636 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Ok, that's enough, I am getting one knowing you would do anything whether tweaking after tweaking or adding more subs to bring your system up a notch. I don't remember reading these very positive notes I quoted above from you. One question: did the improvement
from this 1200d more pronounce than adding the s3000 pair?

Edit: make it 2 questions: sound quality improves, the same or worse?
Well, I'm going to order one of these after the rave reviews. Since I'm a noob, can someone tell me how I hook this up to a Denon 4200 with just sub outs? I don't see any corresponding input on these things.
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post #637 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Ok, that's enough, I am getting one knowing you would do anything whether tweaking after tweaking or adding more subs to bring your system up a notch. I don't remember reading these very positive notes I quoted above from you. One question: did the improvement
from this 1200d more pronounce than adding the s3000 pair?

Edit: make it 2 questions: sound quality improves, the same or worse?
I'm really gonna need more time with the 1200D before I go making any final judgements. Suffice it to say that I would NOT trade my S3000s for 1200Ds..but then again, I would have to try the 1200D without the S3000s to be sure of that. Regardless, I'm not looking to replace them.

I would say (so far) that the sound "quality" has remained the same, I'm just getting boat-loads more TR (tactile response).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilious72 View Post
Well, I'm going to order one of these after the rave reviews. Since I'm a noob, can someone tell me how I hook this up to a Denon 4200 with just sub outs? I don't see any corresponding input on these things.
All you need is an RCA cable, y-splitter if needed, and one of these RCA>XLR adapters:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

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I'm really gonna need more time with the 1200D before I go making any final judgements. Suffice it to say that I would NOT trade my S3000s for 1200Ds..but then again, I would have to try the 1200D without the S3000s to be sure of that. Regardless, I'm not looking to replace them.

I would say (so far) that the sound "quality" has remained the same, I'm just getting boat-loads more TR (tactile response).




All you need is an RCA cable, y-splitter if needed, and one of these RCA>XLR adapters:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

Thank you very much. I'll get those ordered as well. I'm really looking for the tactile response as well. I'm replacing my sub with a pair of SVS PC-12 Pluses, but I want to put this behind the couch. Now, I just have to get it done before the wife gets back from visiting her family...

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post #639 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I would say (so far) that the sound "quality" has remained the same, I'm just getting boat-loads more TR (tactile response).
This ^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D.
and this ^ along with bunches of positive posts are what pushes me to get one or two or ...

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post #640 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
This ^


and this ^ along with bunches of positive posts are what pushes me to get one or two or ...

Mine will be here Wednesday. The wife will be back, but this will help ease her into things before the SVS stuff arrives
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This lil'wonder has been at the top of the list since Dom started this thread. But just as I'm about to order it, it gets bumped. This included a 20 percent off coupon. Now it just got bumped again. I think I'm gonna have to put my foot down this time.
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post #642 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 03:26 PM
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After 7 long months of home theater reconstruction and soundproofing, I'm almost ready to see what these little bad boys can do. Can't wait!


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post #644 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 03:43 PM
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OK guys, I pulled out the REW rig. Here's what I got...doesn't look like much of a difference...but man, does it feel different.

So glad I don't even have to re-run Audyssey or pull the MiniDSP out of mothballs...the response I'm getting is very acceptable IMO.

When I plopped the 1200D down last night, I had the boost at 65hz and it felt awesome! After measuring, I remembered I have that null at about 75hz...so I changed the boost on the 1200D and viola! It didn't really change the experience all that much, but it's just a bit more awesome now.

Blue trace is without the 1200D, red trace is with. Little bit of cancellation between 35-55hz, and again between 90-100hz. I'll tweak it some more when I have the time, but for now I'm a very happy camper.

The John Wick Club Shootout was completely transformed! Kicked my ***! (In a good way )

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post #645 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 03:46 PM
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OK guys, I pulled out the REW rig. Here's what I got...doesn't look like much of a difference...but man, does it feel different.

So glad I don't even have to re-run Audyssey or pull the MiniDSP out of mothballs...the response I'm getting is very acceptable IMO.

When I plopped the 1200D down last night, I had the boost at 65hz and it felt awesome! After measuring, I remembered I have that null at about 75hz...so I changed the boost on the 1200D and viola! It didn't really change the experience all that much, but it's just a bit more awesome now.

Blue trace is without the 1200D, red trace is with. Little bit of cancellation between 35-55hz, and again between 90-100hz. I'll tweak it some more when I have the time, but for now I'm a very happy camper.

The John Wick Club Shootout was completely transformed! Kicked my ***! (In a good way )

Thanks for posting. That's a pretty healthy 60Hz to 90Hz boost. I pulled the trigger on this and the SVS PC13 Ultra tonight, so I'm anxiously awaiting their arrival.
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post #646 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 03:49 PM
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I GIVE UP!
I'M IN.
Also at Musician's Friend, free shipping, no tax:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...b1200d&index=1

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^^^

Bumped??
Pushed down the Home Theater gear procurement list. It's day is coming though.
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post #648 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, not so much a "full" report since I just got the B1200D yesterday and set it up last night, but my first impression? O...M...F...G!!
Wow that's an inexpensive investment for so much impact. I guess I need to add this to my list of things I want.
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post #649 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK guys, I pulled out the REW rig. Here's what I got...doesn't look like much of a difference...but man, does it feel different.

So glad I don't even have to re-run Audyssey or pull the MiniDSP out of mothballs...the response I'm getting is very acceptable IMO.

When I plopped the 1200D down last night, I had the boost at 65hz and it felt awesome! After measuring, I remembered I have that null at about 75hz...so I changed the boost on the 1200D and viola! It didn't really change the experience all that much, but it's just a bit more awesome now.

Blue trace is without the 1200D, red trace is with. Little bit of cancellation between 35-55hz, and again between 90-100hz. I'll tweak it some more when I have the time, but for now I'm a very happy camper.

The John Wick Club Shootout was completely transformed! Kicked my ***! (In a good way )

Alan, it fills up that 55-90hz gap nicely with ~5db bump which explains why you gain more mid bass punch. Now, add a +5db or more LS around 25hz and it could be even better. Thanks for your report/graph. Can you post a picture of where it's sitting?
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post #650 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 05:57 PM
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Wow that's an inexpensive investment for so much impact. I guess I need to add this to my list of things I want.
No, you need to add it to your list of things you NEED.

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post #651 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 2 PSA T-18s (front corners) and 2 PSA S3000s (rear corners) and I have never felt mid-bass like this. I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D. It must be due to the ported design, that's all I can think of.
Correct. It IS because of the ported design.

  • Sound Intensity is how we 'feel' sound and causes the Tactile Response (vibration) of objects
  • Sound Intensity (SIL) = Pressure (SPL) * Particle Velocity (PVL)
  • If SPL is held constant, and there is more Tactile Response than there MUST be more PVL
  • @3ll3d00d ran a sim in hornresp comparing a 14hz tuned 12in sub vs a sealed 18in UXL that shows that ported designs do produce more PVL around tune (see image below)...many many multiples more in fact, extending about an octave
  • This means that a sealed design at 90db SPL will be less tactile that a ported design at 90db around tune. There have been many documented examples of this. Look at Post 1 of this thread.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Alan, it fills up that 55-90hz gap nicely with ~5db bump which explains why you gain more mid bass punch.
SPL certainly plays a part, but it's the combination of SPL and PVL which creates the TR through increased Sound Intensity. If you look at the graph above, around tune PVL is almost 10 TIMES greater than a sealed design.

This is why (as @Alan P cites) when he tried his T18 (triple 18in drivers) and S3000 (dual 15in drivers) in the same position behind his couch, the 1200D still crushed them with regard to Tactile Response.


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Looking at the posted graphs and my own graphs, I'm thinking this thing might be tuned more towards 45hz or so instead of 55-60hz.
@Marc Alexander did a close mic test of the 1200D:



As you can see, it's around 65hz.

So based on the above, PVL is at its peak at around 65hz, and about 10X than sealed at that frequency.

And...




Since our chest cavity is 'tuned' to around 50-100hz, it's no wonder the 1200D shines at the "kick in the chest", "heart racing", "lose your breadth" categories!

High SPL and High PVL = High Intensity!


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post #652 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 06:54 PM
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Didn't read the entire thread but was wondering how these would perform to the sides of the MLP, I could use some extra mid bass slam but at the moment don't have room behind the MLP. Thanks
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post #653 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 07:03 PM
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Where would these 1200Ds benefit me with this sub only graph



How about this C+Subs



Thanks guys, I don't have the room behind the MLP though, I guess I can make room if the sides of MLP won't work.
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post #654 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 07:38 PM
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^^ @Marc Alexander has a couple of the 1200d's, each on the side slightly infront of his couch and it works well for him also. As @dominguez1 has been explaining, it's not about FR but mainly TR, so I truly believe anyone can benefit adding the little mbm. I will find out for myself next week.
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post #655 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 07:59 PM
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Where would these 1200Ds benefit me with this sub only graph.
As I demonstrated, and as many on this thread have commented...it's not about the FR graph. Your graph can/will remain exactly the same, but the PVL/TR can/will increase exponentially. I say you got nothing to lose Jefferey, go for it!
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post #656 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
After following this thread about the Beringer 1200D subwoofer used as a mid bass module I became very interested in trying it out. I've always been interested in the idea of a near field MBM. Several others in the thread have multiple or a handful of large subwoofers in their room. I have six fifteens in my theater but never really had the mid bass I was looking for. I also have large mains with fifteen inch woofers. I have tried all sorts of different calibrations and crossovers. I even moved the entire room around which took me nearly two weeks to move everything and rewire the system. The sound improved but I still thought it could be even better. Especially in the music department.

A couple of days ago I got a Beringer 1200D subwoofer. Instead of placing it behind my couch I placed it on the wall just to the right side of my couch. That distance is about 2ft from the LP. The driver and ports are firing across the LP at your feet. I think this is a good way to place these subs versus a rear placement. Placing the MBM behind the couch will work. But I think the couch will act as an absorber. So some of the subs energy is wasted.

Next I got the subwoofer up and running. I was amazed at how well this subwoofer performs. It completely changed the way my system sounds. Now it has very accurate, tight mid bass. One of these subwoofers would of probably done fine. But I decided to add a second Beringer 1200D subwoofer. I placed the second MBM right next to the other one. Adding the second one just put the icing on the cake. Music sounds live. It has a very clean warm sound. You can feel the guitars and the drum kick as well. It wasn't that difficult to blend all of my other subwoofers with the two MBM's.

I highly recommend adding one of these MBM's to your system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Here are some pictures of my theater with the Beringer mid bass modules.
After I purchased a 2nd B1200d ($255/each Crutchfield Outlet), stacking two behind the MLP made no appreciable difference vs one for me. I tried duplicating Secret Squirrel's setup and only the nearfield, side seat benefitted. I moved the two to opposite walls and bingo! Suddenly all my seats (one row of four seats) seem to benefit equally including the MLP.

So, a sidewall placement can work... just be prepared to buy two as it may be necessary depending on the room.

If you can't see Secret Squirrel's pics, just clickback to post 250.
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post #657 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
As I demonstrated, and as many on this thread have commented...it's not about the FR graph. Your graph can/will remain exactly the same, but the PVL/TR can/will increase exponentially. I say you got nothing to lose Jefferey, go for it!
They can also fill in some gaps in your FR as I experienced and you just demonstrated a few posts back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ @Marc Alexander has a couple of the 1200d's, each on the side slightly infront of his couch and it works well for him also. As @dominguez1 has been explaining, it's not about FR but mainly TR, so I truly believe anyone can benefit adding the little mbm. I will find out for myself next week.
Luckily Enrico would never dare even peek into this thread… your secret is safe with me! I'm glad his rants didn't scare you away.
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post #658 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

@Marc Alexander , I know you've posted a lot of helpful information on integrating this MBM...is there a good post I can reference and include in Post 2 as well?
I've had some unexpected health setbacks. I will be documenting Audyssey SubEQ's behavior here in detail very soon.
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post #659 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:41 PM
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Anyone know how these behringers compare to the diysg offerings? I'm only asking because it would be easier for me to use a passive option as I don't have a circuit nearby.
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post #660 of 3158 Old 10-21-2016, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have 2 PSA T-18s (front corners) and 2 PSA S3000s (rear corners) and I have never felt mid-bass like this. I have tried both a S3000 and a T-18 directly behind my chair, but neither came close to the little 1200D.
Call me Alan P Jr.! 🤓

I have dual PSA S1500s at ⅓ & ⅔ up front and a S3000i midwall in the rear. I also tried the S3000i directly behind the MLP with less than stellar results.
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