Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 3143 Old 11-28-2016, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Tip: so far i just put it on the floor behind the couch. However, since the driver is in the middle of the cabinet(height wise) with the ports below the driver, i just turned it upside down, thereby getting the ports higher up, closer to my back, instead of down by the floor. It made a difference in TR.

This one will stay in my system
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Congrats...welcome to mid bass

Good tip...I'm going to have to try that out! Can't believe I haven't yet!
So I tried this last night watching Mechanic Resurrection...literally just turned it upside down.

I didn't do any AB testing to tell a difference in TR, but there was a noticeable difference in sound...too much bass, especially in vocals. I flipped it back over midway through, and everything was much tighter and dialed in.

Lesson learned: I'm sure flipping it over will better focus TR, but it needs to be dialed in. Without dialing it in like I did when with it right side up, it is not a fair comparison. I would try and dial it in upside down...but I don't need any more midbass TR as it is! I've got it pretty much dialed in right now for optimal SQ mix and midbass TR.
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post #1352 of 3143 Old 11-28-2016, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
The performance of these little subwoofers as MBM's just keeps getting better. I decided to move my two MBM's that where co-located on my sidewall near my couch to another position. They sounded good but I wanted to experiment. So I put one on each end of my couch with the driver and ports firing out at the front of my room. All of my large subwoofers are stacked on the back wall of my room. The MBM's seem to blend into the room better and blend with my larger subwoofers even better now. I'm currently listing to music but I'm getting ready to watch a movie and I'm expecting the improvement in sound to carry over to movies as well.
Keep us posted!
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post #1353 of 3143 Old 11-28-2016, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I just happen to have dual stands (which I use for home PA). I've been busy with Thanksgiving and Black Friday. I will try this and post a few picks.
Very cool. Look forward to the pics and impressions.

Do they make adjustable stands that we could use to raise the height of the 1200D? Might be something that some could take advantage of.
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post #1354 of 3143 Old 11-28-2016, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I was finally able to spend some time with 1200d after a long and busy holiday weekend.

My initial impressions are that it is a very impressive piece of equipment....especially for the price tag. It is also very obvious that tweaking both the position and the settings is very key to making it work...or at least that is what I found with my trial and error.

My setup consists of the following"
3 x JBL 4722N's
8 x JBL SCS8's
2 x DSS Mariana 24's

The 4722's and 24's are behind my screen and fill my room beautifully. I just like what the near field sub can bring to the overall experience of the room.

All I simply did was plug the sub and connected it to an unused jack I previously was using for my old sub setup in the room. The subs all share the same signal and I didn't run ARC on my Anthem. Basically I went with a "plug and play" test.

The sub is located directly behind the MLP with about 8 inches of separation between the couch.

I tried various settings and tried to use what others had posted they had used. My main goal was to see if this unit could give me a nice boost in the mid bass region. The TR is secondary for me as I feel like the dual 24's take care of that end to my liking.

After playing the same scene of John Wick over and over again after each modification, I came up with the settings in the attached picture....except I went back to normal phase instead of reverse phase. Although, I do think that I could see myself using reverse phase depending on how the final placement goes.

Once I had those settings and the placement to my liking, I popped in "Book of Eli" and played the Gatling Gun scene. That was REALLY cool and showed how impressive the 1200 can be.

My final, initial impressions are this:
-During this test, I thought the ported design of the Behringer played well with the sealed Mariana 24's.
-The bass boost needs to be "on"....IMO, I didn't really feel much without it on.
-If I keep it, I will need to make sure I get the height correct. Initially I probably had it too low. Once I propped it up, it made a substantial difference in the performance for sure.
-Unlike the previous test I did with a near field sub in the same location, the ability to boost the mid bass region really allowed for a nice mix of mid bass boot and increased TR. I felt the TR was just subtle enough for my liking.
-The comments about having "boomy bass" are true....I think I was able to tune it down by adjusting the level of the sub.

My next step is to play around with another sub in the same spot and compare the two.

If the decision is made to make this a permanent part of my room, the location of the sub will change. I will have to test that location next to see if the added distance will still give me the results I had today.

ChadB will be down sometime in December and I am VERY confident he can really dial this thing in to be a nice feature in my room. This should also help with the final positioning of the sub.
Thanks for the update! Glad you got a glimpse of what some of us have been experiencing.

You mentioned that you get enough TR from your 24s...so adding the 1200D for you was really not about increasing midbass TR, but rather midbass sound?

The key with the 1200D is dialing it in. When trying to optimize TR, you have to throw the traditional FR optimization techniques out the windows really. It's an entirely different way to integrate it. At the same time though, you have to be cognizant of what it's doing to your FR as well, so it's definitely a balancing act.

As I posted earlier, just flipping the 1200D upside down (in my setup) caused it go from sounding and feeling great, to sounding and feeling bloated...it was like night and day...dialed in it was much much tighter in sound and TR.

I hadn't really had a bad experience yet with this thing because I got lucky, and it just sounded great with minimal integration. However, I did get a taste of improper integration...and yeah...I probably would have returned it if I left it like that.
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post #1355 of 3143 Old 11-28-2016, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

As I posted earlier, just flipping the 1200D upside down (in my setup) caused it go from sounding and feeling great, to sounding and feeling bloated...it was like night and day...dialed in it was much much tighter in sound and TR.

I hadn't really had a bad experience yet with this thing because I got lucky, and it just sounded great with minimal integration. However, I did get a taste of improper integration...and yeah...I probably would have returned it if I left it like that.
That'd explain why I had to turn the gain down a half notch when I flipped it upside down for Godzilla. It definitely seemed a greater portion of the B1200 bandwidth was heard and felt this way, but it sounded a little much/bloated around the midbass than I had ever experienced before. I haven't measured again with it in this orientation, and I may very well prefer it right side up or on its side better in the end. I'm going to try and dial it in to my liking for a week or two upside down. Keep up the good work all!
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post #1356 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Apparently, the new version can GENERATE the correct 50 to 100Hz signal, but the wav file is still incorrect. I couldn't check it while REW was in ASIO mode and WMP was using Java, so I just got around to looking at it. Deleted from Dropbox. Sorry.

But you CAN generate the signal and watch RTA yourself!

Michael
seems ok to me, what problem did you have?

I put a version in https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mc?usp=sharing and verified it in speclab btw
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post #1357 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Do they make adjustable stands that we could use to raise the height of the 1200D? Might be something that some could take advantage of.
I haven't pulled my stands out yet but these are what I have:

Hola! HPS-200PA, PRO Adjustable Height 6ft Tripod PA Speaker Stand with Carrying Bag, PAIR
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RZYYYPG..._GrvpybBRH5X55

"Adjustable height between 4ft and 6ft."
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post #1358 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Thanks for the update! Glad you got a glimpse of what some of us have been experiencing.

You mentioned that you get enough TR from your 24s...so adding the 1200D for you was really not about increasing midbass TR, but rather midbass sound?

The key with the 1200D is dialing it in. When trying to optimize TR, you have to throw the traditional FR optimization techniques out the windows really. It's an entirely different way to integrate it. At the same time though, you have to be cognizant of what it's doing to your FR as well, so it's definitely a balancing act.

As I posted earlier, just flipping the 1200D upside down (in my setup) caused it go from sounding and feeling great, to sounding and feeling bloated...it was like night and day...dialed in it was much much tighter in sound and TR.

I hadn't really had a bad experience yet with this thing because I got lucky, and it just sounded great with minimal integration. However, I did get a taste of improper integration...and yeah...I probably would have returned it if I left it like that.
Yes - I think the unit does a great job adding more mid bass sound to the experience. Having dual 24's on a suspended floor is plenty of TR for me.

Later this week I will be doing a test with another sub to duplicate the same thing for a comparison.

Might also turn it upside down like others have tried just to see how it responds..
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
seems ok to me, what problem did you have?
The problem I had was, when playing it back and looking at REW's RTA, the spectrum went below 50, just like before.
I've put my setup away, so I'm afraid I can't check yours, but I'll put mine back up if you say it was okay.
BTW, you may want to change the name on yours to make it easier to find; I downloaded half a dozen files before I found 50-100.
Michael

Okay, restored, for anyone who may still want it.
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post #1360 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
The key with the 1200D is dialing it in.
I gave up on it as an MBM. Just couldn't arrange it behind my seat and not have it totally mess up my FR.
However, when I put it where my Ultimax 10 had been, I have the best FR I've ever had with minimal distortion.







This is an untreated, open family room, BTW.

So I'm really happy after all.
Though I now have an Ultimax 10 in storage, next to my Fusion 8 towers.

Michael
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I was looking at that earlier, and that is crazy....who is going to try it first?
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I was looking at that earlier, and that is crazy....who is going to try it first?
No free shipping with Prime = BIG THUMBS DOWN
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It shows free shipping without prime.
There's a seatback version, too.

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This device is intriguing, but I wish the range were adjustable: it has a claimed 5-130hz range, but I'm thinking that's a bit too high. I don't want tactility from deep voices. Still, I'd like to see what the bassaholics on this thread think of it.


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post #1366 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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post #1367 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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post #1368 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
I was looking at that earlier, and that is crazy....who is going to try it first?
I can already see customer reviews:

"My wife wont allow 4 fridge sized subwoofers with 24" drivers in a living room. This is a great substitute."
"With this thing, foundation and drywall of my house is safe from infrasonic destruction caused by typical awesome subwoofer. I couldn't be happier"
"Caught my wife watching War of the Worlds the other day. I told her she is supposed to wear it on a torso"

Anyway, nice girly stuff. Now, will someone convince the guy from Stereo Integrity to make 30" sub driver with 50mm xmax?
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I can already see customer reviews:

"My wife wont allow 4 fridge sized subwoofers with 24" drivers in a living room. This is a great substitute."
"With this thing, foundation and drywall of my house is safe from infrasonic destruction caused by typical awesome subwoofer. I couldn't be happier"
"Caught my wife watching War of the Worlds the other day. I told her she is supposed to wear it on a torso"

Anyway, nice girly stuff. Now, will someone convince the guy from Stereo Integrity to make 30" sub driver with 50mm xmax?
That is one of the funniest "infomercials" I have read....
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post #1370 of 3143 Old 11-29-2016, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I can already see customer reviews:

"My wife wont allow 4 fridge sized subwoofers with 24" drivers in a living room. This is a great substitute."
"With this thing, foundation and drywall of my house is safe from infrasonic destruction caused by typical awesome subwoofer. I couldn't be happier"
"Caught my wife watching War of the Worlds the other day. I told her she is supposed to wear it on a torso"

Anyway, nice girly stuff. Now, will someone convince the guy from Stereo Integrity to make 30" sub driver with 50mm xmax?
Hilarious!
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Gives "strap-on" a whole new meaning.
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post #1372 of 3143 Old 11-30-2016, 08:47 AM
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So, I've got my DIY MBMs hooked up and at first I wasn't getting much TR. After remedying the problem with the input from the AVR, which was barely sending a signal to the iNuke, by raising the gain on the external iNuke gain dial, I still wasn't getting much of that chest thump. I had to be sitting really close to the subs to even feel anything. When I say really close, I mean on the floor with my back touching them. I was wondering what was wrong because I've experienced the chest thump from nearfield MBMs before. This morning I disconnected the mains and got out my SPL meter to see what was going on with my MBMs. It looks like I'll need to rerun Audyssey. When I increased the gain volume in the iNuke by 4db and turned the AVR volume up, these things are monsters. Wow. I still need to get them dialed in, but they are keepers. @dominguez1 - thanks for the suggestion of keeping the ports up because the most visceral energy is coming from the ports (which I still need to paint). Pics of my nearfield MBMs are below.

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post #1373 of 3143 Old 11-30-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post


I will not be the first...nope, no way.


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post #1374 of 3143 Old 11-30-2016, 11:21 AM
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I will not be the first...nope, no way.


lol ...c'mon Alan ...don't make me be first!

My 'Blacked Out' Home Theater | Tactile Response for BASS | BassEQ for Filtered Movies
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post #1375 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
So, I've got my DIY MBMs hooked up and at first I wasn't getting much TR. After remedying the problem with the input from the AVR, which was barely sending a signal to the iNuke, by raising the gain on the external iNuke gain dial, I still wasn't getting much of that chest thump. I had to be sitting really close to the subs to even feel anything. When I say really close, I mean on the floor with my back touching them. I was wondering what was wrong because I've experienced the chest thump from nearfield MBMs before. This morning I disconnected the mains and got out my SPL meter to see what was going on with my MBMs. It looks like I'll need to rerun Audyssey. When I increased the gain volume in the iNuke by 4db and turned the AVR volume up, these things are monsters. Wow. I still need to get them dialed in, but they are keepers. @dominguez1 - thanks for the suggestion of keeping the ports up because the most visceral energy is coming from the ports (which I still need to paint). Pics of my nearfield MBMs are below.

Awesome. Nice job on the build!

PA460s AND ported MBM tune...those have to provide quite the impact!

The way I would integrate it with audyssey is first figure out what gain, phase, and eq provide the most TR for you with the MBMs. Then run audyssey from one sub out so that it keeps the relative settings between your farfield and near field subs.

Post audyssey, tweak the MBMs to taste while maintaining a reasonable FR. This also may involve tweaking the farfield subs as well to offset FR changes from the near field tweaks.
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post #1376 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Awesome. Nice job on the build!

PA460s AND ported MBM tune...those have to provide quite the impact!

The way I would integrate it with audyssey is first figure out what gain, phase, and eq provide the most TR for you with the MBMs. Then run audyssey from one sub out so that it keeps the relative settings between your farfield and near field subs.

Post audyssey, tweak the MBMs to taste while maintaining a reasonable FR. This also may involve tweaking the farfield subs as well to offset FR changes from the near field tweaks.
Thanks. Does this suggestion require SubEQ?
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post #1377 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 09:19 AM
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Thanks. Does this suggestion require SubEQ?
I'm sure Dom knows best, but a miniDSP gives a whole lot of control to adjust pre and post Audy if need be, especially if using one subout for all subs. I use it for this and gives a lot of flexibility to make tweaks to FF subs, NF subs and or NF MBM. Its a pretty inexpensive solution to insert into the chain for outboard PEQ/control.
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post #1378 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
I'm sure Dom knows best, but a miniDSP gives a whole lot of control to adjust pre and post Audy if need be, especially if using one subout for all subs. I use it for this and gives a lot of flexibility to make tweaks to FF subs, NF subs and or NF MBM. Its a pretty inexpensive solution to insert into the chain for outboard PEQ/control.
I have DSP in the three iNukes I have, and I also have a miniDSP for the two SVS subs that I have. Since the MBMs are being run off an iNuke 1000DSP, I was just planning on using the DSP in the iNuke and not connecting it to the MBMs to the minidsp. I know that SubEQ allows you to run Audyssey for multiple subs. My current AVR doesn't have SubEQ (just lowly MultiEQXT and not even XT32). I'll be upgrading my AVR within the next few months depending on whether I want to upgrade my furniture, projector or AVR first.
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post #1379 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
Thanks. Does this suggestion require SubEQ?
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
I have DSP in the three iNukes I have, and I also have a miniDSP for the two SVS subs that I have. Since the MBMs are being run off an iNuke 1000DSP, I was just planning on using the DSP in the iNuke and not connecting it to the MBMs to the minidsp. I know that SubEQ allows you to run Audyssey for multiple subs. My current AVR doesn't have SubEQ (just lowly MultiEQXT and not even XT32). I'll be upgrading my AVR within the next few months depending on whether I want to upgrade my furniture, projector or AVR first.
The biggest advantage of SubEQ is to enable users to set distances and levels separately for a pair of subs. And, even with more than two subs, there can be advantages to being able to change levels using the AVR remote for Sub1 (front soundstage) and Sub 2 (rear soundstage) for instance. But, the EQ performed is essentially the same regardless of the number of subs in a system, as they are all EQed together, based on their combined performance. That's what makes some additional outboard DSP potentially helpful, when you are introducing significantly dissimilar subs. That's one of those occasions where you may get lucky just having Audyssey, or not.

SubEQ with its two sub outs aside, though, XT-32 is definitely worth the price of admission, in my opinion, compared to the earlier versions of Audyssey. There are more control points in all of the channels, and the distribution of the taps is more global in the higher frequencies, and more targeted in the lower frequencies (where more specific EQ is most needed), compared to the earlier versions.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1380 of 3143 Old 12-01-2016, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The biggest advantage of SubEQ is to enable users to set distances and levels separately for a pair of subs. And, even with more than two subs, there can be advantages to being able to change levels using the AVR remote for Sub1 (front soundstage) and Sub 2 (rear soundstage) for instance. But, the EQ performed is essentially the same regardless of the number of subs in a system, as they are all EQed together, based on their combined performance. That's what makes some additional outboard DSP potentially helpful, when you are introducing significantly dissimilar subs. That's one of those occasions where you may get lucky just having Audyssey, or not.

SubEQ with its two sub outs aside, though, XT-32 is definitely worth the price of admission, in my opinion, compared to the earlier versions of Audyssey. There are more control points in all of the channels, and the distribution of the taps is more global in the higher frequencies, and more targeted in the lower frequencies (where more specific EQ is most needed), compared to the earlier versions.

Regards,
Mike
I agree that SubEQ is worthwhile as I had it in a previous receiver. I just finished my dedicated space and I'm using my older equipment until I finally decide what AVR to get (deciding between Marantz 6011, 7010 or Denon 6200) and which projector to get (leaning towards Epson 5040). So I will definitely be upgrading both, not sure which is more important first though. As of right now, I need to manually zoom my projector for my scope screen as my 5010 doesn't have lens memory. Projectors aside, I do know that I should be able to have a significant benefit from the AVR upgrade. In the meantime, I plan on using mtg90's sub integration method.
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