Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 3159 Old 12-08-2016, 11:29 AM
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post #1442 of 3159 Old 12-08-2016, 12:04 PM
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Fantastic.
I just got an email requesting all the information I gave them on the original complaint form.
Oh, well, at least I have someone's attention.
Michael
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post #1443 of 3159 Old 12-08-2016, 12:17 PM
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Meh, the **** we have to endure.

Anyone cares to comment on my idea to implement MBM with proper crossovers between subs and mains? If I am gonna fail at it I should at least fail ASAP.

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post #1444 of 3159 Old 12-08-2016, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
How much of the sound and tactile vibration comes from the port?
the port will dominate output around port tune where around is about 1/2 octave either side, if the point is TR then you want that firing straight at you though you may want to use multiple ports to distribute the output somewhat. There's very little (i.e. none) evidence on what works best here but I suspect more ports is better than 1 for a TR delivery mechanism though it will depend on the target area and seating.
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post #1445 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I don't either.
Returned it. They will give me new one, without the box.

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post #1446 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
If you go to the first page of https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...st-thread.html thread, it should give you some instructions. @coolrda , do you have a better instructional writeup in other posts in that thread?

It will also have the .wav files you can download to use with VS. There are two White Noise sound files need to run VS with to measure things appropriately.

One is from 0-50hz (white noise containing all those frequencies). And then another from 50-100hz.
I'll look as I did have something in the ULF Scorecard originally. I will update it to include all the latest soon though.

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post #1447 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Returned it. They will give me new one, without the box.
Great news.
I'm still at the "giving them the information they already have" stage.
Michael
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post #1448 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Great news.
I'm still at the "giving them the information they already have" stage.
Michael
I just went to local store where I bought it, its just 2 miles from me and I am pretty regular there.

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post #1449 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Did a little more playing around tonight with VS and the 1200D to try and dial it in more...





Look at what a difference just 3 inches closer makes!!!!

Look at the difference at 50hz, 75hz, and 85hz...10-20db difference for just 3 inches closer! Wow...
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post #1450 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Did a little more playing around tonight with VS and the 1200D to try and dial it in more...





Look at what a difference just 3 inches closer makes!!!!

Look at the difference at 50hz, 75hz, and 85hz...10-20db difference for just 3 inches closer! Wow...
Very cool!! Yep, it amazes me what even 1 inch closer can do sometimes!!

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post #1451 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 09:26 PM
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What do you mean 3 inches closer?
Oh I see, you guys still aren't holding your MBM in the lap.

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post #1452 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
What do you mean 3 inches closer?
Oh I see, you guys still aren't holding your MBM in the lap.
lol ...almost! Mine cant get any closer as its touching the seat back up high chest level. The next step would be to mod the couch and insert so the grill on the 1200d can be the seat back ....TR and crazy chest slam is a sickness! The same goes for a driver and or port almost touching the seat back for crazy ULF wobble! Nothing beats it IME! Once experienced, there is no going back.

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post #1453 of 3159 Old 12-09-2016, 10:35 PM
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@Alan P , I have a question for you that I've been meaning to ask you for a while now, but forgot. My room is probably different than yours with it being very large and open, so I'm sure it changes things to a varying degree. But in my room and setup, nothing even comes close to the TR and slam that I get from the drivers (and ports if its ported) firing only about an away from the back of my chair (I'm talking placement of subs only here, not TT's). Even moving the drivers back a few inches can very noticeably reduce the effect.

IRCC, a while back you said you were underwhelmed when you tried your S3000 in this fashion. Do you think you were underwhelmed with it nearfield possibly from the DO (Dual Opposed) design? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the S3000's are DO right. I've never experienced DO before (FF or NF). I do know that from my experiences with my sealed 18's and the ported subs that I've used before (JTR cap 2400 and Rythmik FV15HP), that when NF and firing into the back of my chair, it most definitely makes a tremendous difference in TR and slam and drastically changes depending on which way the driver is pointing. For example, if I pointed the driver into the back of the couch compared to rotating the sub 45 degrees so the driver (and ports on the ported subs) faced to the side and not into the chair (with sub in same spot behind the seat), there was a huge difference in TR and slam, even though the FR's looked almost identical. With driver facing to the side and not into back of couch, I too was mostly underwhelmed. So PVL is definitely directional. What I'm getting at here is that the drivers in a DO design may not produce as much PVL at the drivers in Nearfield position with it placed right behind you (even if one of the drivers is firing into your seat) compared to a non DO design (I'm talking only NF here with drivers firing into MLP). Or not! LOL Its just that IME with the NF subs ran this way, LF and ULF can feel amazingly intense and borderline on extreme, depending on how high of a gain level is used and how much its contributing compared to the rest of the farfield subs. I know FR's of the NF subs can be not so good at ear level of MLP sometimes positioned like this, but even so, TR can still be very strong and accurate! Besides just subjectively, I've confirmed this objectively with VibSensor just recently.

Kind of related, Dom was saying a while back in the discussion of why we may or may not feel mid bass TR and impact as strongly, is that along with the mid bass frequencies, if its accompanied by strong LF and ULF it could result in a higher impact of mid bass. I know our HT's are not outdoors here, BUT nearfield (full range bass frequencies) certainly helps get us closer to that I think, and probably even more so in larger rooms because of not as much or even no room gain IMO.

As I've said before, I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones that can really feel the mid bass chest slam and pressure. Besides NF, it makes me wonder if maybe this is true what Dom is saying and if other LF and ULF frequencies are increasing the impact of the mid bass chest slam and pressure feeling, or at least maybe increasing the perception of it.

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post #1454 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
The same goes for a driver and or port almost touching the seat back for crazy ULF wobble!
At which point it becomes a TT.
Michael
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post #1455 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
As I've said before, I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones that can really feel the mid bass chest slam and pressure. Besides NF, it makes me wonder if maybe this is true what Dom is saying and if other LF and ULF frequencies are increasing the impact of the mid bass chest slam and pressure feeling, or at least maybe increasing the perception of it.
I don't think its ULF/LF. I mean, you can gradually low cut your subwoofers and measure midbass TR, but I think its upper bass and upper harmonics that increase slam and perception. And it makes sense, if you every listened to strong bass in open space, you won't enjoy much ULF, but punch is insane.

Btw, what are your current settings on 1200? And what is minimal volume setting on your system that causes chest punch? And do you hear port noise from 1200 while getting chest slammed in?

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post #1456 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
At which point it becomes a TT.
Michael
Basically yes , but with no actual PR (pressure response) to the body. Although my BK LFE's can totally trick me into thinking that I'm getting more PR than I actually am, making me believe it has to be coming from subs. I've been tricked on more than a few occasions when playing the same demo scene over and turning off the BK's and MA's. It amazes me that they can do this.

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post #1457 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I don't think its ULF/LF. I mean, you can gradually low cut your subwoofers and measure midbass TR, but I think its upper bass and upper harmonics that increase slam and perception. And it makes sense, if you every listened to strong bass in open space, you won't enjoy much ULF, but punch is insane.

Btw, what are your current settings on 1200? And what is minimal volume setting on your system that causes chest punch? And do you hear port noise from 1200 while getting chest slammed in?
True, maybe I'm talking more about LF contributing. IDK, maybe its all nonsense about it contributing and harmonics etc, I was just trying to make sense out of what Dom was saying. But that said, there are a couple scenes (in Terminator Salvation to be specific) that I thought I was getting way more chest slam and chest pressure than I actually was when turning off my full range 18's right behind me and playing the 1200D only. Surprisingly the effect of chest pressurization even lessened somewhat on these scenes when turning off the TT's. I'm not talking about music here, just with movie clips, which is my main thing. Obviously there are a lot of clips that also have a lot of LF mixed in with mid bass frequencies in movies.

As for the settings on the 1200D, at the moment I have gain at 10:00 and the 10db boost at 60hz on the 1200D. I'm not exactly sure what the minimum AVR master volume is that causes that great chest punch feeling, but I can say that at -15mv, which is where I'll demo at a fair amount of the time, chest slam can feel pretty extreme to me on certain movie material. For instance: Avengers in chapter 12 from about 1:16:45 to about 1:17:50. Holy chest slam/pressure! At -15mv it can feel pretty crazy. Bump to -8mv or so and it takes it to another level. Same goes with pretty much the entire chapter 7 of Avengers: Age of Ultron. Although, it has to be about 5db higher on the MV compared to the 1rst Avengers because the overall levels seem to be lower. FYI, bass is ran about 10db hot with no DEQ to get that sensation. 10db hot seems to be about perfect on these two movies on my setup.

For port noise, I actually have never heard it from the 1200D, maybe partially because it's behind the seat back and not as easily heard.

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post #1458 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
At which point it becomes a TT.
Michael
I started out with mine being essentially a TT since it complemented my Crowsons so well. But in my sealed, dedicated room it has become much more than that and has really improved the SQ.

I have a couch-high bookcase that I use as a makeshift bar for the second row. During my initial tweaking/measuring I had it pulled away from the MBM to get to the controls. When I moved the bookcase back right behind it I didn't bother to re-measure the frequency response. Well, when I did re-measure, the midbass output increased which must mean the bookcase was acting as a room boundry and giving me some room gain (at least around the LP) So I was able to eq the midbass down more in my main subs which looks to be improving the SQ even more (because I'm not activating my room mode as much). So besides increasing TR, it certainly looks like nearfield MBMs are a great tool for improving the midbass SQ in a tough room.

The most dramatic SQ improvement so far has been with the first TMNT movie. When I rented it the first time, I hated the bass track. The midbass (especially in the long downhill truck chase) was often a bloated, one-note mess. At the time I suspected it was room-mode related, but I didn't know what to do about it (since I was already using EQ) I just rented this again, and the difference is absolutely night and day. The formally annoying chase scene now has lots of detail and punch and sounds outstanding. I'd definitely recommend this movie as a midbass demo or for MBM testing.
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post #1459 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:01 AM
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But in my sealed, dedicated room it has become much more than that and has really improved the SQ.
That is what everyone keeps saying, but, so far, the only graphs I've seen are mine (which showed, in my room, it made it much worse) and dom's.
Anyone else care to fire up REW?
[while I'm still waiting for a reply from customer support....]
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post #1460 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:06 AM
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I'd definitely recommend this movie as a midbass demo
That would be me.
Are you talking about the "Original" movie from 1990?
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post #1461 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:12 AM
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That would be me.
Are you talking about the "Original" movie from 1990?
Michael
No, the first "live action" one from 2014.
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post #1462 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Did a little more playing around tonight with VS and the 1200D to try and dial it in more...





Look at what a difference just 3 inches closer makes!!!!

Look at the difference at 50hz, 75hz, and 85hz...10-20db difference for just 3 inches closer! Wow...
Dom,

How far away was your 1200 before you moved it just 3" closer and got such a difference? I think I remember you saying that your 1200 was about 2' away. If so, that makes the difference, with such a small incremental change in position, even more remarkable. I'm going downstairs now to move my full-range sub a few inches closer.

Regards,
Mike

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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1463 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:49 AM
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No, the first "live action" one from 2014.
Thanks. In my queue.
Michael
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post #1464 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 11:51 AM
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I'm going downstairs now to move my full-range sub a few inches closer.
Which, of course, messes with the delay, if you're a follower of the "sub distance tweak."
Michael
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post #1465 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Which, of course, messes with the delay, if you're a follower of the "sub distance tweak."
Michael
Hi Michael,

I'm mostly a follower of whatever I like most, works best, so we'll see.

Regards,
Mike

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post #1466 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
True, maybe I'm talking more about LF contributing. IDK, maybe its all nonsense about it contributing and harmonics etc, I was just trying to make sense out of what Dom was saying. But that said, there are a couple scenes (in Terminator Salvation to be specific) that I thought I was getting way more chest slam and chest pressure than I actually was when turning off my full range 18's right behind me and playing the 1200D only. Surprisingly the effect of chest pressurization even lessened somewhat on these scenes when turning off the TT's. I'm not talking about music here, just with movie clips, which is my main thing. Obviously there are a lot of clips that also have a lot of LF mixed in with mid bass frequencies in movies.

As for the settings on the 1200D, at the moment I have gain at 10:00 and the 10db boost at 60hz on the 1200D. I'm not exactly sure what the minimum AVR master volume is that causes that great chest punch feeling, but I can say that at -15mv, which is where I'll demo at a fair amount of the time, chest slam can feel pretty extreme to me on certain movie material. For instance: Avengers in chapter 12 from about 1:16:45 to about 1:17:50. Holy chest slam/pressure! At -15mv it can feel pretty crazy. Bump to -8mv or so and it takes it to another level. Same goes with pretty much the entire chapter 7 of Avengers: Age of Ultron. Although, it has to be about 5db higher on the MV compared to the 1rst Avengers because the overall levels seem to be lower. FYI, bass is ran about 10db hot with no DEQ to get that sensation. 10db hot seems to be about perfect on these two movies on my setup.

For port noise, I actually have never heard it from the 1200D, maybe partially because it's behind the seat back and not as easily heard.
Interesting. Mine was probably about 3 feet from chest. Tried to get closer and a variety of settings and didn't get the desired effect. It was close...but it can be better imo. I think my MV level was too low. My sub is also boosted 8-10dB, but half of that is on AVR trim and half on SVS volume control. 1200 is daisy chained to SVS so I have no clue if daisy chained sub also gets volume boost from SVS.
I will experiment further when I get a replacement.
Btw, I had rehearsal with a band today...my electric guitar hooked up to a Marshall cabinet with 4 Celestion full range drivers.Whoever played on it before me had some low end boost turned on. Anyway, chest vibration from that thing is INSANE (and volume knob was only half-way ). Its not slam...I doubt you can get slam with tubes because they chop off big peaks...but it is a constant violent rattle and vibration. I am definitely sure now that distortion and harmonics contribute a lot, but high SPL helps too. (I read somewhere here on forum that you need at least 105 dB peak for chest slam)
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post #1467 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Dom,

How far away was your 1200 before you moved it just 3" closer and got such a difference? I think I remember you saying that your 1200 was about 2' away. If so, that makes the difference, with such a small incremental change in position, even more remarkable. I'm going downstairs now to move my full-range sub a few inches closer.

Regards,
Mike
It went from 24in to 21in
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post #1468 of 3159 Old 12-10-2016, 06:16 PM
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I have to give this a try, I can not fathom running my subs 10dB hot over Audy trim set even without DEQ engaged, we'll see what happens. I'm about to load Terminator Salvation.........
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post #1469 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 06:50 AM
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I have to give this a try, I can not fathom running my subs 10dB hot over Audy trim set even without DEQ engaged, we'll see what happens. I'm about to load Terminator Salvation.........
In that case, I hesitate to tell you how much Alan P. and I boost post-Audyssey.

DEQ adds about 2db of bass boost per every 5db below Reference. So, at -5 MV, it is boosting +2db in all channels, not just the subwoofer channel; at -10 MV, it is boosting +4db, and so on. If you are watching movies at -20, which is a pretty typical listening volume, DEQ is already boosting your subs by 8db (and boosting bass in the other channels, as well). So, adding a 10db boost, to just the subs, wouldn't really be that much with DEQ off.

Most of those who prefer not to use DEQ mention the surround boost, or the bass boost in the CC, which can make dialogue harder to hear, as reasons for preferring to do without it. In addition to those specific issues, the idea of being easily able to restrict my bass boost to those frequencies where I really want it (< about 120Hz) while keeping my other channels relatively clean, is a big plus for me. But, I really enjoy going to town on the ULF, so I boost quite a bit to get it. I am probably averaging around a 15db sub boost, at an average listening volume in the low to mid teens. I might adjust sub boost and MV a bit, depending on the particular movie.

Regards,
Mike
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post #1470 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 10:20 AM
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DEQ adds about 2db of bass boost per every 5db below Reference.
Regards,
Mike
I thought it was about 4db boost per 5db bellow reference? My normal listening level is -15 to -10, so upping my sub trims by 10 for the main subs and 8 for the MBMs are not that much at all with Dyneq off.
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