Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I thought it was about 4db boost per 5db bellow reference? My normal listening level is -15 to -10, so upping my sub trims by 10 for the main subs and 8 for the MBMs are not that much at all with Dyneq off.
I used to think it was about 3db of boost per -5db below Reference. But, I believe that Alan took some measurements a while back demonstrating the actual amount of boost. Or perhaps he merely correctly interpreted the results of Austin Jerry's measurements in the technical addendum to the FAQ. I don't remember which it was now. But, we have Alan to thank for destroying our illusions with respect to the correct amount of bass boost with DEQ.

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post #1472 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Interesting. Mine was probably about 3 feet from chest. Tried to get closer and a variety of settings and didn't get the desired effect. It was close...but it can be better imo. I think my MV level was too low. My sub is also boosted 8-10dB, but half of that is on AVR trim and half on SVS volume control. 1200 is daisy chained to SVS so I have no clue if daisy chained sub also gets volume boost from SVS.
I will experiment further when I get a replacement.
Btw, I had rehearsal with a band today...my electric guitar hooked up to a Marshall cabinet with 4 Celestion full range drivers.Whoever played on it before me had some low end boost turned on. Anyway, chest vibration from that thing is INSANE (and volume knob was only half-way ). Its not slam...I doubt you can get slam with tubes because they chop off big peaks...but it is a constant violent rattle and vibration. I am definitely sure now that distortion and harmonics contribute a lot, but high SPL helps too. (I read somewhere here on forum that you need at least 105 dB peak for chest slam)
Yeah you'll have to mess with it some more when you get your replacement. Hopefully you can get a little closer to what you after.

As great as the 1200D is at adding to the chest slam, I still don't think I'd be getting quite as much as I wanted even with it at my back without the 3 nearfield 18's right behind me as well. They contribute a lot in this area, but the 1200D definitely helps!

Cool about the electric guitar and Marshall cab! I used to play guitar quite a bit (still mess around with it a little) and had a Marshall valve state half stack amp. Was so fun! I never could play as good as I wanted but I gave it hell trying! Played a lot of metal rhythm type stuff - Pantera, Slayer, Metallica, etc. Lots of palm muting, galloping and speed picking. Damn, now I'm gonna have to go get my guitar out and play a few riffs haha! Maybe start with a little 'Seek and Destroy' \m/

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post #1473 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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@SBuger , can you post VS 50-100hz sweeps of with and without the 1200D? Interested to see the difference.

Also, do you have an FR sweep with and without?
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post #1474 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Kind of related, Dom was saying a while back in the discussion of why we may or may not feel mid bass TR and impact as strongly, is that along with the mid bass frequencies, if its accompanied by strong LF and ULF it could result in a higher impact of mid bass. I know our HT's are not outdoors here, BUT nearfield (full range bass frequencies) certainly helps get us closer to that I think, and probably even more so in larger rooms because of not as much or even no room gain IMO.

As I've said before, I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones that can really feel the mid bass chest slam and pressure. Besides NF, it makes me wonder if maybe this is true what Dom is saying and if other LF and ULF frequencies are increasing the impact of the mid bass chest slam and pressure feeling, or at least maybe increasing the perception of it.
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I don't think its ULF/LF. I mean, you can gradually low cut your subwoofers and measure midbass TR, but I think its upper bass and upper harmonics that increase slam and perception. And it makes sense, if you every listened to strong bass in open space, you won't enjoy much ULF, but punch is insane.
Outdoor, you essentially have no room gain. The theory is that room gain does not produce any significant TR.

In a room, your 15hz-50hz output (as an example) is part sub and part room gain. The part of that output that is room gain, doesn't have impact on TR, but does on SPL.

Outdoor, it's essentially all sub, and therefore has more TR than it would in a room at the same SPL levels.

Because midbass frequencies are accompanied by LF/ULF frequencies, even those non-midbass frequencies will have an impact on TR (because there is no room gain).

Nearfield placement mimics outdoors closer because the LP is essentially 'seeing' the close mic response (no room gain).
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post #1475 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Outdoor, you essentially have no room gain. The theory is that room gain does not produce any significant TR.

In a room, your 15hz-50hz output (as an example) is part sub and part room gain. The part of that output that is room gain, doesn't have impact on TR, but does on SPL.

Outdoor, it's essentially all sub, and therefore has more TR than it would in a room at the same SPL levels.

Because midbass frequencies are accompanied by LF/ULF frequencies, even those non-midbass frequencies will have an impact on TR (because there is no room gain).

Nearfield placement mimics outdoors closer because the LP is essentially 'seeing' the close mic response (no room gain).
I see my mistake, let me rephrase. There is a strong chance that often if you listen a sub outside (concert or whatever) that subs wont be designed to produce ULF we like to enjoy in our rooms, basically...you will listen to bunch of huge midbass modules.
Regardless, not really fair comparison.

What you are saying is relatively easy to prove. Measure tactile response on your couch in room, then move your couch and MBM outside...keep same distance and don't touch levels. If Vibsensor shows similar results, your theory could very well be proven.

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post #1476 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yeah you'll have to mess with it some more when you get your replacement. Hopefully you can get a little closer to what you after.

As great as the 1200D is at adding to the chest slam, I still don't think I'd be getting quite as much as I wanted even with it at my back without the 3 nearfield 18's right behind me as well. They contribute a lot in this area, but the 1200D definitely helps!

Cool about the electric guitar and Marshall cab! I used to play guitar quite a bit (still mess around with it a little) and had a Marshall valve state half stack amp. Was so fun! I never could play as good as I wanted but I gave it hell trying! Played a lot of metal rhythm type stuff - Pantera, Slayer, Metallica, etc. Lots of palm muting, galloping and speed picking. Damn, now I'm gonna have to go get my guitar out and play a few riffs haha! Maybe start with a little 'Seek and Destroy' \m/
Meh, MBM is least of my worries right now. I have asymmetrical room placement and only one sub (pretty flat though, even Audyssey does very few corrections) but at some frequencies my ears get unevenly pressurised which I find extremely annoying. I know more subs will fix that, but that will have to wait.

GL with guitar. I have a Peavey 6505 head and Orange box at home. Most of the times I am downright scared to turn it on at home since with volume knob at 1 its louder then my HT at 0MV.

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post #1477 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
What you are saying is relatively easy to prove. Measure tactile response on your couch in room, then move your couch and MBM outside...keep same distance and don't touch levels. If Vibsensor shows similar results, your theory could very well be proven.
Hmmmmm......
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post #1478 of 3159 Old 12-11-2016, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Been doing a Harry Potter marathon...pretty amazing how the LF/ULF mix changes from the 1st to the 5th one.

From my seat...little to no ULF in the 1st and 2nd, and starts to pick up in the third. The second has some very strong midbass (quidditch scene) that felt really nice.





As mentioned, I tweaked my integration with the 1200D recently...I essentially lowered my midbass FR, but increased the TR. It's amazing to me the difference it's made! I watched that quidditch scene again with the new settings, and it hit a lot harder, but also sounded tighter and blended more seamlessly at the same time. Purely subjective of course (with exception to the increased TR), but I'm happy with the tweaks for sure.

We'll see what happens when I watch a movie that doesn't call for strong midbass TR...(I keep remembering that's the reason I moved it further away!).
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post #1479 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This is 2 B1200s along sidewalls with mic ~7ft away:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47683001

1 behind should have plenty of headroom to hit ≥115dB peaks. If not placed directly behind MLP I recommend 2 MBMs.

It does not sound good by itself IMO. I had forgotten to turn the subs back on and it was quite noticeable.
How wide is your room Marc?
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post #1480 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
@Alan P , I have a question for you that I've been meaning to ask you for a while now, but forgot. My room is probably different than yours with it being very large and open, so I'm sure it changes things to a varying degree. But in my room and setup, nothing even comes close to the TR and slam that I get from the drivers (and ports if its ported) firing only about an away from the back of my chair (I'm talking placement of subs only here, not TT's). Even moving the drivers back a few inches can very noticeably reduce the effect.

IRCC, a while back you said you were underwhelmed when you tried your S3000 in this fashion. Do you think you were underwhelmed with it nearfield possibly from the DO (Dual Opposed) design? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the S3000's are DO right. I've never experienced DO before (FF or NF). I do know that from my experiences with my sealed 18's and the ported subs that I've used before (JTR cap 2400 and Rythmik FV15HP), that when NF and firing into the back of my chair, it most definitely makes a tremendous difference in TR and slam and drastically changes depending on which way the driver is pointing. For example, if I pointed the driver into the back of the couch compared to rotating the sub 45 degrees so the driver (and ports on the ported subs) faced to the side and not into the chair (with sub in same spot behind the seat), there was a huge difference in TR and slam, even though the FR's looked almost identical. With driver facing to the side and not into back of couch, I too was mostly underwhelmed. So PVL is definitely directional. What I'm getting at here is that the drivers in a DO design may not produce as much PVL at the drivers in Nearfield position with it placed right behind you (even if one of the drivers is firing into your seat) compared to a non DO design (I'm talking only NF here with drivers firing into MLP). Or not! LOL Its just that IME with the NF subs ran this way, LF and ULF can feel amazingly intense and borderline on extreme, depending on how high of a gain level is used and how much its contributing compared to the rest of the farfield subs. I know FR's of the NF subs can be not so good at ear level of MLP sometimes positioned like this, but even so, TR can still be very strong and accurate! Besides just subjectively, I've confirmed this objectively with VibSensor just recently.

Kind of related, Dom was saying a while back in the discussion of why we may or may not feel mid bass TR and impact as strongly, is that along with the mid bass frequencies, if its accompanied by strong LF and ULF it could result in a higher impact of mid bass. I know our HT's are not outdoors here, BUT nearfield (full range bass frequencies) certainly helps get us closer to that I think, and probably even more so in larger rooms because of not as much or even no room gain IMO.

As I've said before, I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones that can really feel the mid bass chest slam and pressure. Besides NF, it makes me wonder if maybe this is true what Dom is saying and if other LF and ULF frequencies are increasing the impact of the mid bass chest slam and pressure feeling, or at least maybe increasing the perception of it.
I have no idea if the Dual Opposed design would have anything to do with TR in this case, my problem was that the S3000s just won't fit behind my chair with a driver facing the chair...I had to place them long-ways and it wasn't very impressive IIRC. I may have to re-visit this option...thanks for bringing it up!
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post #1481 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
That is what everyone keeps saying, but, so far, the only graphs I've seen are mine (which showed, in my room, it made it much worse) and dom's.
Anyone else care to fire up REW?
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Pretty sure I posted this when I first got the 1200D, but here it is again. The 1200D made a positive difference in my FR, although a pretty small difference.
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post #1482 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I used to think it was about 3db of boost per -5db below Reference. But, I believe that Alan took some measurements a while back demonstrating the actual amount of boost. Or perhaps he merely correctly interpreted the results of Austin Jerry's measurements in the technical addendum to the FAQ. I don't remember which it was now. But, we have Alan to thank for destroying our illusions with respect to the correct amount of bass boost with DEQ.
Well, per my in-room measurements, it's actually about +2.2/2.3dB at 20hz for every 5dB below reference FWIW. I just round down to +2dB when people ask because it's easier.
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post #1483 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@SBuger , can you post VS 50-100hz sweeps of with and without the 1200D? Interested to see the difference.

Also, do you have an FR sweep with and without?
I thought I had them on my phone from all the VSing the other day but must have deleted it (I started getting way to many VS measurements going on and was getting hard to tell what was what).

So I just ran the ones you wanted to see again today.

VS for White Noise 50-100 with and without MBM:

Settings for all VS measurements: -5MV with subs -7 sub Trim (not hot) and No DEQ and no weight since it doesn't get a ton of bounce like the ULF 0-50hz White Noise. I ran them with weight as well (5lb bag of rice) but didn't post them. I can if you'd like

All subs only without MBM:


All subs only with MBM:


and the FR with and without MBM (crossover 90hz):


About the FR: I've had prettier FR's before but don't really remember it sounding and feeling better than it does now. Settings on 1200D are 10:00 gain and +10db boost at 60hz

Short version: The MBM doesn't show much of a TR increase objectively with the VS readings compared to with it on vs off, but subjectively is sure does. It does show that it picks it up a little in a few areas (but not a lot) and the reading across the board is a little smoother.

Longer version: Again, the 1200D MBM doesn't show a ton of difference in the VS reading, but subjectively, I can definitely feel it, so that kind of surprised me! But as far as the overall slam and TR goes, the 3 NF sealed 18's right behind me are the bread and butter in my system and are already contributing so much in the mid bass chest kick area. Since messing with this NF stuff over the last couple years or so, nothing comes close (talking subs only here) to the full range TR in my large open room than having them right behind me with driver firing into seat back about an inch away. The ported cap and FV15HP that I used to park right behind me did this as well. The HSU MBM that I've used before and now this 1200D makes a very noticeable difference as well being NF right behind me, even though its not showing much of a TR increase in the mid bass region in addition to what the NF 18's are doing in the VS readings. At least not at the seat cushion location. It might show differently if I were able to take a reading in different areas of the seat back, especially since I have the 1200D behind me up higher on my back on top of the 18's.

I tried to address this a little bit in the post I made for my White Noise 0-100hz VS measurements in the VibSensor thread HERE

I love the VibSensor and I think its an amazing tool to have for multiple reasons. It has helped me to dial in my system's TR better (Time aligning my BK's/MA's better with my subs among other things). It's nice when the VS measurements match up objectively with what we feel subjectively, but is not always the case 100% of the time. At least not with the VS reading on the seat cushion in my experience so far with 1200D MBM added in. Ultimately in the end, what we feel subjectively is the most important, but objective measurements are nice to back that up if possible.
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post #1484 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Short version: The MBM doesn't show much of a TR increase objectively with the VS readings compared to with it on vs off, but subjectively is sure does. It does show that it picks it up a little in a few areas (but not a lot) and the reading across the board is a little smoother.
Yeah, well you technically measure "couch slam", so that is the part where you could see improvement on graph. If you want to measure chest slam, better glue that sensor to your chest. Finding subjective improvement was easy for me. I put mbm in front of me, played some kick bass on loop (or you can cut out audio slam from your favourite movie scene and loop it), turned on boost, and then moved boost frequency knob across the spectrum until I zeroed in on subjectively strongest slam. Just do the same on MLP, ask someone else to turn the boost frequency knob while you are sitting.
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post #1485 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Been doing a Harry Potter marathon...pretty amazing how the LF/ULF mix changes from the 1st to the 5th one.

From my seat...little to no ULF in the 1st and 2nd, and starts to pick up in the third. The second has some very strong midbass (quidditch scene) that felt really nice.





As mentioned, I tweaked my integration with the 1200D recently...I essentially lowered my midbass FR, but increased the TR. It's amazing to me the difference it's made! I watched that quidditch scene again with the new settings, and it hit a lot harder, but also sounded tighter and blended more seamlessly at the same time. Purely subjective of course (with exception to the increased TR), but I'm happy with the tweaks for sure.

We'll see what happens when I watch a movie that doesn't call for strong midbass TR...(I keep remembering that's the reason I moved it further away!).

Cool, I like your changing graph! And that's no small amount of midbass TR gain!

I did the Harry Potter marathon not to long ago as well ...was a lot of fun. And your right, the LF/ULF mix changes a lot as they progress.

When you get there, be sure and try to pay attention to Ch. 4 in the 7th one, Harry Potter And The Deathly Hallows Part 1. It has a bunch of very cool mid bass in this whole chapter with lots of variety. Its one of my favorites.

About the midbass being to strong on certain movies that doesn't call for it, just remember that occasionally some movies seem to really have the bass mixed hot in the sound track (compared to most) and especially if it doesn't have a lot of ULF and LF to accompany it, it can sometimes seem like the mid bass is to much. For these movies its probably easy enough to turn down the 1200D, or maybe disengage the +10db boost, if your using that, or even lower overall sub trims levels a bit. Then put them back to where you usually have them afterwards. I have to do this ever once in a while on certain movies that don't call for it. It's usually a real quick fix for me to just lower the sub trims on the fly by a few db or so.

Question: Does your seat at the MLP recline back, getting you closer to the 1200D since you have it about 21 inches away?

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post #1486 of 3159 Old 12-12-2016, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Short version: The MBM doesn't show much of a TR increase objectively with the VS readings compared to with it on vs off, but subjectively is sure does. It does show that it picks it up a little in a few areas (but not a lot) and the reading across the board is a little smoother.

Longer version: Again, the 1200D MBM doesn't show a ton of difference in the VS reading, but subjectively, I can definitely feel it, so that kind of surprised me! But as far as the overall slam and TR goes, the 3 NF sealed 18's right behind me are the bread and butter in my system and are already contributing so much in the mid bass chest kick area. Since messing with this NF stuff over the last couple years or so, nothing comes close (talking subs only here) to the full range TR in my large open room than having them right behind me with driver firing into seat back about an inch away. The ported cap and FV15HP that I used to park right behind me did this as well. The HSU MBM that I've used before and now this 1200D makes a very noticeable difference as well being NF right behind me, even though its not showing much of a TR increase in the mid bass region in addition to what the NF 18's are doing in the VS readings. At least not at the seat cushion location. It might show differently if I were able to take a reading in different areas of the seat back, especially since I have the 1200D behind me up higher on my back on top of the 18's.

I tried to address this a little bit in the post I made for my White Noise 0-100hz VS measurements in the VibSensor thread HERE

I love the VibSensor and I think its an amazing tool to have for multiple reasons. It has helped me to dial in my system's TR better (Time aligning my BK's/MA's better with my subs among other things). It's nice when the VS measurements match up objectively with what we feel subjectively, but is not always the case 100% of the time. At least not with the VS reading on the seat cushion in my experience so far with 1200D MBM added in. Ultimately in the end, what we feel subjectively is the most important, but objective measurements are nice to back that up if possible.
Very interesting! Thanks for doing that.

Certainly not much change at all from the vibration of your seat standpoint...but this just goes to show that Vibsensor only detects INDIRECT TR; meaning sound waves impact an object, and vibsensor picks up the vibration as a result of that.

What you're noticing is DIRECT TR; the sounds waves directly hitting your body (chest). We also call this "Pressure Response, or PR". Examples of this are the chest slam, weight of room, ear popping, etc.

As you mention, adding the 1200D significantly increased that chest slam PR, but that won't show up on VS.

As a refresher, there are 3 quantities we've identified that make up the overall HT/Music experience:

Frequency Response (what we hear) - FR

Tactile Response (what we feel through other objects) - TR

Pressure Response (what we feel directly from sound waves) - PR

It's the combination of all three that make up the complete listening experience.

You can have the exact same FR at the same SPL, but have completely differently TR and PR...and they would absolutely be different experiences.

These are the components that will ultimately go into the updated ULF Scorecard.
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Very interesting! Thanks for doing that.

Certainly not much change at all from the vibration of your seat standpoint...but this just goes to show that Vibsensor only detects INDIRECT TR; meaning sound waves impact an object, and vibsensor picks up the vibration as a result of that.

What you're noticing is DIRECT TR; the sounds waves directly hitting your body (chest). We also call this "Pressure Response, or PR". Examples of this are the chest slam, weight of room, ear popping, etc.

As you mention, adding the 1200D significantly increased that chest slam PR, but that won't show up on VS.

As a refresher, there are 3 quantities we've identified that make up the overall HT/Music experience:

Frequency Response (what we hear) - FR

Tactile Response (what we feel through other objects) - TR

Pressure Response (what we feel directly from sound waves) - PR

It's the combination of all three that make up the complete listening experience.

You can have the exact same FR at the same SPL, but have completely differently TR and PR...and they would absolutely be different experiences.

These are the components that will ultimately go into the updated ULF Scorecard.
I know there has been discussion on the ULF Score thread about the ULF difference between being on concrete (or in a concrete box) and being on a wood or suspended floor. Has anyone tried to speculate about whether wall surfaces might make a difference with respect to mid-bass pressure response? Although, I believe that I may be slightly more sensitive to mid-bass TR/PR, I have wondered whether my thick wood paneling might also make a difference. The reason for my speculation is that I feel percussive waves playing music, even at what I would consider very moderate volumes, with no speakers within 12' (and no subs at all).

Does it make sense that the vertical surfaces in the room could reflect pressure waves in a way that enhances the tactile sensation in mid-bass frequencies? It seems to me that, with respect to the mid-bass frequencies, dense reflective vertical surfaces could be a factor in what we feel at chest level.

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Is it optimal to point the port at the listening positioning or simply orient the 1200 normally and have the port pointing at the ceiling?


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I know there has been discussion on the ULF Score thread about the ULF difference between being on concrete (or in a concrete box) and being on a wood or suspended floor. Has anyone tried to speculate about whether wall surfaces might make a difference with respect to mid-bass pressure response? Although, I believe that I may be slightly more sensitive to mid-bass TR/PR, I have wondered whether my thick wood paneling might also make a difference. The reason for my speculation is that I feel percussive waves playing music, even at what I would consider very moderate volumes, with no speakers within 12' (and no subs at all).

Does it make sense that the vertical surfaces in the room could reflect pressure waves in a way that enhances the tactile sensation in mid-bass frequencies? It seems to me that, with respect to the mid-bass frequencies, dense reflective vertical surfaces could be a factor in what we feel at chest level.
Smaller room = more gain. Various cabin materials have various absorptive and reflective properties. Also, concrete does not flex. Wood does...and it contributes somewhat to TR if vibrations have direct route to your MLP.
"Percussive" is very subjective, imo...upper frequencies (mid and high) greatly contribute to your overall feeling and coloration of tactile slam. Put high cut around 300-400 Hz. See if you still feel "percussive." Or sit on a plain chair right in front of MLP, that way you will conclude how much does your couch contribute to that description (I find chairs very non-tactile).

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Smaller room = more gain. Various cabin materials have various absorptive and reflective properties. Also, concrete does not flex. Wood does...and it contributes somewhat to TR if vibrations have direct route to your MLP.
"Percussive" is very subjective, imo...upper frequencies (mid and high) greatly contribute to your overall feeling and coloration of tactile slam. Put high cut around 300-400 Hz. See if you still feel "percussive." Or sit on a plain chair right in front of MLP, that way you will conclude how much does your couch contribute to that description (I find chairs very non-tactile).
Thanks! That flexing property of wood, or glass for that matter, was part of what I have in mind. But, sheetrock flexes too, so I think that density is also an aspect of what I am speculating about. I have a very large room and don't use a couch for either music listening or most of my movie viewing.

It seems to me that this is another dimension to the pressure response phenomenon that is worth discussing. Incidentally, the percussive sensation I am referring to is distinctly in the mid-bass range-- the strike of a kick drum; the deep strum of an upright bass, etc. Those sounds can each create a separate little pressure wave which is palpable from a distance.

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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Is it optimal to point the port at the listening positioning or simply orient the 1200 normally and have the port pointing at the ceiling?
Ceiling? That's not a port, it's a mounting hole for a pole to support main PA speakers.
The ports/vents are below the driver, on the bottom, which is why some people have the speaker upside down.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks! That flexing property of wood, or glass for that matter, was part of what I have in mind. But, sheetrock flexes too, so I think that density is also an aspect of what I am speculating about. I have a very large room and don't use a couch for either music listening or most of my movie viewing.

It seems to me that this is another dimension to the pressure response phenomenon that is worth discussing. Incidentally, the percussive sensation I am referring to is distinctly in the mid-bass range-- the strike of a kick drum; the deep strum of an upright bass, etc. Those sounds can each create a separate little pressure wave which is palpable from a distance.
Sheetrock isn't concrete either. You need much more SPL to bend concrete. Or a tactile transducer (like one used to destroy pavements ).

Imo, you are referring to a pretty normal bass sensation. When i walk around the room while listening at moderate levels, there are spots where bass is really tactile and sounds even better then at my flat MLP. REW measurement confirmed peak in response at those locations around midbass range. Besides...if you have any ported speakers with tune similar to B1200, you will find them more tactile...even at moderate levels. Comparing my Revel M106 with KEF LS50, makes KEF dull in comparison, simply because Revels port tune is lower.

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Sheetrock isn't concrete either. You need much more SPL to bend concrete. Or a tactile transducer (like one used to destroy pavements ).

Imo, you are referring to a pretty normal bass sensation. When i walk around the room while listening at moderate levels, there are spots where bass is really tactile and sounds even better then at my flat MLP. REW measurement confirmed peak in response at those locations around midbass range. Besides...if you have any ported speakers with tune similar to B1200, you will find them more tactile...even at moderate levels. Comparing my Revel M106 with KEF LS50, makes KEF dull in comparison, simply because Revels port tune is lower.
Hi,

I don't think we are quite communicating here, and I'm going to let it go after this post.

I am suggesting that room construction may be an influencing factor in determining the sensation of Pressure Response we feel. Just that, nothing more. I'm not talking about room gain in a small room, or about walking around the room and feeling more tactile sensation in some parts of the room, or about ported speakers delivering more Tactile Response.

Dom has differentiated between Tactile Response, which seems to be strongly influenced by floor construction, and by transmission through a riser, or chair or sofa; and Pressure Response, which is more of a direct free air sensation, and which may be influenced by proximity to a driver or a port. I simply speculated that I may be experiencing more mid-bass Pressure Response (it is occurring at chest level, after all) from the nature of the vertical surfaces in my room, which are fairly thick and dense wood paneling. So, if I am correct in that speculation, it is possible that there may be a reflected component to the Pressure Response, at mid-bass frequencies, which is not strictly direct (free air) and proximity-dependent.

I thought that Dom, and others, might want to consider that speculation as part of the increasing body of knowledge regarding the differences among FR, TR and PR, in the same way that room construction may be a factor in determining perceived ULF.

Regards,
Mike

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Last edited by mthomas47; 12-13-2016 at 10:56 AM.
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I am suggesting that room construction may be an influencing factor in determining the sensation of Pressure Response we feel. Just that, nothing more.
Yes, its called room mode distribution, but you already know that. Construction materials determine how sharp resonances will be in the room. And rigidity of construction materials determines how strong will TR be.

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Count me into the family.

Amazon has them on sale for $248, so I got a price match from B&H photo to bypass tax. I went ahead and bought two since my room is 20 ft wide and I am going to try to put them on the side walls to avoid running cables to the MLP. I have a nasty 60-90hz null in the xover region between my subs and mains that I haven't been able to dial out thus far. Hopefully, this will smooth things out in my room.
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Yeah. Except, I don't have original packaging any more. Don't ask.
I wonder how will they feel about that.
Progress. I have an RMA. They want me to ship it to NY.
Guess I need a box.

Looks like I get to pay for shipping, too.

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Count me into the family.

Amazon has them on sale for $248, so I got a price match from B&H photo to bypass tax. I went ahead and bought two since my room is 20 ft wide and I am going to try to put them on the side walls to avoid running cables to the MLP. I have a nasty 60-90hz null in the xover region between my subs and mains that I haven't been able to dial out thus far. Hopefully, this will smooth things out in my room.
Have you tried the sub distance tweak?

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Have you tried the sub distance tweak?
Yes, but that doesn't mean I did it properly.
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Yes, but that doesn't mean I did it properly.


You got REW up and running or no??

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Alan's being shy, but he did a nice write-up of the sub distance tweak here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post48610609
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