Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 3159 Old 12-19-2016, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Its looking more and more like nearfield is going to be mandatory in my room. If I am going to do that, then they are going to sit on top of some 18's near-field like the rest of you guys
I tried it nearfield behind my seat with a small 10" front ported Velodyne and I definitely liked it playing the John Wick scene, since then I've been thinking about adding one (or two) of these Berry's but I'd either have to place them side seat or move them for movie time only as my setup is a combo family room/HT.

That Berry looks like a toy next to those JBL's...
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post #1562 of 3159 Old 12-19-2016, 06:05 PM
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Okay, folks, volume 1 is ready.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post49126305
Volume 2 will be "tuned" a little lower, and will probably be ready in a couple of months.
Thanks for the suggestions.
BTW, my 1200 is still in Buffalo, NY.
Better it than me.
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post #1563 of 3159 Old 12-22-2016, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Any new 1200d's or MBMs for xmas yet?
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post #1564 of 3159 Old 12-22-2016, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Any new 1200d's or MBMs for xmas yet?
Tempted. Wonder if I could fashion an end table around them?
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post #1565 of 3159 Old 12-22-2016, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Any new 1200d's or MBMs for xmas yet?


I keep thinking about trying one,but my HSU MBM works great right behind the main MLP. Watched Inception tonight,Bass and Mid-Bass for days in that movie! I remember when it first came out guys were blowing up their subs because of the Tub Scene near the beginning.


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post #1566 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Here is another potential (cheap) MBM for those who already own or can find one.

Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer

I have one in my master bedroom as the lone subwoofer. It fits under or behind my dresser or under the bed. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to fit under my theater seating due to the recline mechanisms. I'll try and post some REW captures. It seems to be tuned right at 40Hz as it rises sharply from 80Hz to a peak at 40Hz followed by a steep drop. I don't measure ±3dB 25Hz-150Hz, maybe -10dB.


Acoustic Research FPS-10 Subwoofer
MSRP - $499.99
Street price - $49 - $199

Dimensions - 23.1" x 17.5" x 4.9"
Item Weight- 29.4 lbs

Features:
ICE amplification
200 Watts RMS / 550 Watts Dynamic
Fits under/behind couch, entertainment center or other furniture
Frequency Response 25Hz-150Hz
10-Inch non-compressed paper cone provides stiffer construction
High performance compressor/Limiters for high dynamic output and low distortion

Description:
Spoiler!


Edit: I just read that the LFE input of the FPS10 has undefeatable EQ (40Hz), rumble filter (20Hz?), and low pass filter (80Hz?) (-all based on my measurements). I need to use the line in inputs to setup & test this sub properly. I will update this post after I re-measure.
After 5 months of searching I finally found a 2nd AR FPS10 locally last week. I didn't post more about this MBM because I didn't want competition bidding until I had a 2nd in hand. 🐵

In our master bedroom suite we have a split king bed and 5.1. We use the room a lot for TV and kids movies. The MBM adds so much tactile feel we just had to have two because sticking it in the middle just wasn't as satisfying! My son and I watched Despicable Me on Blu-ray this morning and it rocked!

I am running these without a ULF sub, something I would never do with the B1200d. It's a shame these ARs won't fit under my theater seats! These are gold if you can find one.
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post #1567 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 12:48 AM
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My wife is a trained vocalist and recently performed Handel's Messiah with a mass vocal ensemble, soloists and string orchestra. No percussion! It was a visceral, tactile experience. From the vocals to the violins, cellos, and especially the basses. You felt the music, not just heard it.

15+ years ago [after sub crawling then EQ'ing my sub with a BFD, radio shack SPL meter, and a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet] I thought I knew it all in regards to home theater audio. Every week on AVS these days reminds me just how little I know. I can't even stay caught up with my subscribed threads... I installed but haven't even touched VS!

2016 was great… keep moving the bar forward!
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post #1568 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 05:45 AM
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Finally hooked up my 2 additional B1200's last night. I also hooked up a balanced minidsp 2x4 to control them. I figured it would be a nightmare to try to get the gain and crossover levels correct on all four of them. The mini dsp makes it so easy. I maxed the level and crossover knobs on all four and used the output controls in the minidsp to lower the signal 15db on each sub. I plan to use an SPL meter to get them all level matched. I then played around with various high and low pass crossovers until I got it sounding the way I liked it. Right now I have a 48db/oct at 40hz high pass and a 24db/oct lowpass at 80hz. They sound great and I now get the tactile feel across all seats on my couch. I am sure I will make many adjustments as it is very easy to do is with my laptop from the MLP. Maxing the knobs on the subs and using the minidsp gives me peace of mind that if a child messes with the knobs all they can do is lower the volume. It is easily for me to set it right back without a recalibration by maxing the knobs again. I liked it so much I ordered another balanced minidsp for my 4 S2's which I will use the same way.

Here is a picture of them siting on top of the S2's. Looks like I have room for one more on the right side . To the right of the last sub is an Elan Zpower. It turns on all of the B1200 subs via a 12v trigger from my pre pro (S2's also turned on by built in triggers).

I need to clean up all of the wires today. There is a couch in front of those subs!

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Last edited by raynist; 12-23-2016 at 06:03 AM.
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post #1569 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 06:24 AM
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Sick setup!

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post #1570 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Finally hooked up my 2 additional B1200's last night. I also hooked up a balanced minidsp 2x4 to control them. I figured it would be a nightmare to try to get the gain and crossover levels correct on all four of them. The mini dsp makes it so easy. I maxed the level and crossover knobs on all four and used the output controls in the minidsp to lower the signal 15db on each sub. I plan to use an SPL meter to get them all level matched. I then played around with various high and low pass crossovers until I got it sounding the way I liked it. Right now I have a 48db/oct at 40hz high pass and a 24db/oct lowpass at 80hz. They sound great and I now get the tactile feel across all seats on my couch. I am sure I will make many adjustments as it is very easy to do is with my laptop from the MLP. Maxing the knobs on the subs and using the minidsp gives me peace of mind that if a child messes with the knobs all they can do is lower the volume. It is easily for me to set it right back without a recalibration by maxing the knobs again. I liked it so much I ordered another balanced minidsp for my 4 S2's which I will use the same way.



Here is a picture of them siting on top of the S2's. Looks like I have room for one more on the right side . To the right of the last sub is an Elan Zpower. It turns on all of the B1200 subs via a 12v trigger from my pre pro (S2's also turned on by built in triggers).



I need to clean up all of the wires today. There is a couch in front of those subs!





This is awesome! It's pretty telling that even with all of the firepower you had in your system (JTR 215's and S2's including nearfield), you still get some benefit with these firing into your back. Job well done. Hope all is well Ray and Merry Christmas!


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post #1571 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
This is awesome! It's pretty telling that even with all of the firepower you had in your system (JTR 215's and S2's including nearfield), you still get some benefit with these firing into your back. Job well done. Hope all is well Ray and Merry Christmas!


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Hi Dave - Merry Christmas to you too!

Hopefully we can get a GTG scheduled this spring and you can check them out.
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post #1572 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 11:37 AM
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Progress. I have an RMA. They want me to ship it to NY.
More progress.
"We've decided to replace your B1200D PRO with a brand new model. Please contact me Tuesday regarding your tracking number. "
So I may be up and running again eventually.
Michael
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post #1573 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Nice. Now flip them upside down.
Personally, if I was doing something like that...I'd just buy two quality PA drivers and DIY two MBMs. Would probably vastly improve headroom and SQ. Not sure about PVL, maybe 4 ports are better then 2.
Btw, would you be so kind and post a REW waterfall graph if you can spare a minute of your time?

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post #1574 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Nice. Now flip them upside down.
Personally, if I was doing something like that...I'd just buy two quality PA drivers and DIY two MBMs. Would probably vastly improve headroom and SQ. Not sure about PVL, maybe 4 ports are better then 2.
Btw, would you be so kind and post a REW waterfall graph if you can spare a minute of your time?
I did have one of them flipped in the beginning but didn't like it so much as the port was right at my head. I may have to try it again though.

Will try to do a few waterfall maybe line the week. Will not have much time to tweak over the weekend.
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post #1575 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Finally hooked up my 2 additional B1200's last night. I also hooked up a balanced minidsp 2x4 to control them. I figured it would be a nightmare to try to get the gain and crossover levels correct on all four of them. The mini dsp makes it so easy. I maxed the level and crossover knobs on all four and used the output controls in the minidsp to lower the signal 15db on each sub. I plan to use an SPL meter to get them all level matched. I then played around with various high and low pass crossovers until I got it sounding the way I liked it. Right now I have a 48db/oct at 40hz high pass and a 24db/oct lowpass at 80hz. They sound great and I now get the tactile feel across all seats on my couch. I am sure I will make many adjustments as it is very easy to do is with my laptop from the MLP. Maxing the knobs on the subs and using the minidsp gives me peace of mind that if a child messes with the knobs all they can do is lower the volume. It is easily for me to set it right back without a recalibration by maxing the knobs again. I liked it so much I ordered another balanced minidsp for my 4 S2's which I will use the same way.

Here is a picture of them siting on top of the S2's. Looks like I have room for one more on the right side . To the right of the last sub is an Elan Zpower. It turns on all of the B1200 subs via a 12v trigger from my pre pro (S2's also turned on by built in triggers).

I need to clean up all of the wires today. There is a couch in front of those subs!

Wicked!! That's gotta slam!! My 3 sealed 18's right behind me and the one 1200 sitting on top of them at my upper back does ...and you've got more firepower than me right behind you, so I'm sure once you get it all dialed in, it's gonna kill!

I agree about the miniDSP. I use a couple of them. It pretty much allows you do what ever is needed (HPF's LPF's, delays, PEQ tweaks - pre and or post Audy, etc) to get them all integrated well and tweaked to personal preference.

About the flipping it upside down, I wouldn't think you'd need to flip them either, as they are right now the port and driver is about at the mid to upper part of your back like mine is, which is probably going to be the most optimal for PVL and chest slam IMO.

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post #1576 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 01:45 PM
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More progress.
"We've decided to replace your B1200D PRO with a brand new model.
Michael
Brand new model different than the 1200d?
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post #1577 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 01:49 PM
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I'll let you know. I'm wondering, too.
He probably just means a new 1200, but we'll see.
Michael
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post #1578 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 01:56 PM
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I'll let you know. I'm wondering, too.
He probably just means a new 1200, but we'll see.
Michael
They just meant they will give you another B1200D. There is no new model of that size. There are some new models with 15" and 18".

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The kids have been out for Christmas break, so we have been watching a movie or 2 every night and I am absolutely amazed at how my system sounds since adding the 1200d pair . Many times, my kids said 'wow daddy, my chair just shake', I turned and looked at their faces and had a 'priceless' moment. We watched Edge of Tomorrow last night and Obvilion the night before, I kept smiling and said to myself 'Outstanding, these movies just sound outstanding'. IMO and I said it before, no system is completed without adding an MBM or MBMs.
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post #1580 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 06:50 PM
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Hi Ray,

have you fired up all those MBM and S2? eager to read your listening impression
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post #1581 of 3159 Old 12-23-2016, 11:52 PM
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Ran some Omnimic sweeps tonight. Did some tweaking also and here is the current graph.



I noticed that any HPF I put on messed up the response below 40hz so I turned it off. I think the unit might have one built in. Also my LPF at 80hz was too steep. Changed it from a 48db to 24db per octave and it smoothed out the response above 80hz. Added a tiny bit of delay but it really didn't need anything.

Sounds even better now! Can adjust the levels easily in the mini dsp app to add a bit more midbass as needed.

Just found a longer USB cable to attach to my minidsp. Can quickly A/B turning the MBM's on and off. It sounds great without them, but when I turn them on gunshots have so much more weight to them. I added about a 2db increase in level from the above graph and think I will keep it there.

2 great test scenes to get a feel for how well these work are in the Book of Eli. The first one is the shootout scene (ch 12 @ 52 min) and the assault on the house scene (ch 18 @ 78 min). Huge difference with the MBM's on/off. At reference the Gatling gun feels like it is taking over my heartbeat.
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post #1582 of 3159 Old 12-25-2016, 08:26 AM
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So going against the advices that was given to me, I picked up 2 Cerwin Vega CVA-121 used locally on Craigslist. They were a little rough, but nothing a few cans of spray paint couldn't fix. I got both for $1100 so I couldn't pass up on this deal.

Let me just say that the bass is nothing short of chest crushing! Only one is hooked up at the moment due to the fact that I'm still waiting for a XLR to RCA connector.

These Vegas were added onto my already existing dual Reaction Audio BPS-215s, and a custom DIY 15" Adire Audio Tempest subwoofer.

I am now happy for the moment!



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post #1583 of 3159 Old 12-25-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Any new 1200d's or MBMs for xmas yet?


I just ordered two 1200D. I've been thinking I should get two more subs to help flatting out the response for the two sealed SI18D4 subs I already have. They go deep in my small room to 7-8hz so I don't really need more down there. I do have problems with the 50 to 100 Hz frequencies so I hope the 1200D's will do good with that too. These will hopefully sound good beside the couch.
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post #1584 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 06:11 AM
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I just ordered two 1200D. I've been thinking I should get two more subs to help flatting out the response for the two sealed SI18D4 subs I already have. They go deep in my small room to 7-8hz so I don't really need more down there. I do have problems with the 50 to 100 Hz frequencies so I hope the 1200D's will do good with that too. These will hopefully sound good beside the couch.


Please let us know how that works out.


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post #1585 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 02:45 PM
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Please let us know how that works out.


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Also curious - I'm going to pull the trigger on a couple of pa380s and debating going sealed or ported.

My mains and my subs are sealed so I'm a little concerned about integration with a ported MBM.

I remember having issues when I had ported subs mixed with sealed nearfields.


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post #1586 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 02:52 PM
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Sealed don't work for this purpose.
See first post.
Michael
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post #1587 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
Also curious - I'm going to pull the trigger on a couple of pa380s and debating going sealed or ported.

My mains and my subs are sealed so I'm a little concerned about integration with a ported MBM.

I remember having issues when I had ported subs mixed with sealed nearfields.


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You never know who will be reading the thread at a particular time, so perhaps one of the people I am thinking of will speak up. But, there are several people who have augmented their normal complement of sealed subs with a 1200 or two. In one or two cases, I can recall, the 1200 helped to resolve a measured problem in the mid-bass region.

But, I can also recall people buying the 1200 purely for the increased tactile impact in its bandwidth-limited region, and disregarding the impact on the overall frequency response. So, it may or may not give you a better measurement, and yet may give you some additional mid-bass SPL and/or TR that you crave. FWIW, I do think it is easier to integrate than a full-range sub would be.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1588 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
Also curious - I'm going to pull the trigger on a couple of pa380s and debating going sealed or ported.

My mains and my subs are sealed so I'm a little concerned about integration with a ported MBM.

I remember having issues when I had ported subs mixed with sealed nearfields.


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I'll think you'll be ok with integrating the sealed full range subs and ported MBM's together. mthomas47 is right, the MBM will probably be easier to integrate with sealed subs than a full range ported sub would be. Full range you can definitely run into some phase issues. The most problematic areas seem to be the lower frequencies. It can be done, but takes some work.

I run sealed and ported full range subs and then the ported MBM 1200D. The miniDSP allowed me to integrate them all together without to much problem, but did take some tweaking to get the phase differences to line up and work together with the full range subs. The mbm 1200d integrated without much problem at all though.

If you don't already have one, you might consider getting a miniDSP to allow you a lot of control and flexibility. And of course, either REW or Omni will be a must.
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post #1589 of 3159 Old 12-26-2016, 07:30 PM
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I'll think you'll be ok with integrating the sealed full range subs and ported MBM's together. mthomas47 is right, the MBM will probably be easier to integrate with sealed subs than a full range ported sub would be. Full range you can definitely run into some phase issues. The most problematic areas seem to be the lower frequencies. It can be done, but takes some work.



I run sealed and ported full range subs and then the ported MBM 1200D. The miniDSP allowed me to integrate them all together without to much problem, but did take some tweaking to get the phase differences to line up and work together with the full range subs. The mbm 1200d integrated without much problem at all though.



If you don't already have one, you might consider getting a miniDSP to allow you a lot of control and flexibility. And of course, either REW or Omni will be a must.


Sounds good - might as well go ported and give it a shot. I have 1 output channel left on my ddrc-88BM and a DEQ2496 I could use as well (I plan on building 2 at once).


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post #1590 of 3159 Old 12-27-2016, 06:10 AM
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Also curious - I'm going to pull the trigger on a couple of pa380s and debating going sealed or ported.
Hey bouf, I'm curious what you have in mind for your PA380s. If you stick with sealed would the cab size be ~0.7 cu ft as recommended on parts-express? Or different?

I plan on using a couple PA380s in ported cabs along with a UM18 in a large ported cab. I have one 380 already, currently testing it out in a ported 3 cu ft test box (I've posted a couple times in my build thread and the VibSensor thread about it). And i plan on trying a couple of cab sizes to compare. So far it seems like a very capable MBM for my needs. First tests seem a bit muddy/loose. Good response after some PEQ adjustments in my inuke DSP but could use more punch. Could be the large cab size. I plan on bringing it down to 1.5-2.0 cu ft for further testing.

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