Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 55 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1621 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I don't have REW, or a calibration mike, but I might be investing in this at some point. At this point, I'm not as concerned about measurements as what I'm not hearing or feeling.


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What do you hear/feel with all your subs turned off but the B1200? Something obviously is wrong with your sub if none of these suggestions are working.

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post #1622 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 09:36 AM
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Ok FINALLY got around to comparing the Yamaha dsr118w (18 inch PA sub) and the Behringer b1200d that I have sitting around for almost 2 months now. After using the Yamaha in my system for the past 2 months and very happy with the TR I was surprised at how good the B1200D performed. I have 4 PSA V1800s running on average at 2/3 gain and 6db hot in my avr so I like my bass hot. After getting my 4 main subs dialed in in the 4 corners of the room and running room correction (Anthem arc2),I daisy chained the mbm subs with my two rear subs. I ran both the Yamaha and b1200d in normal phase both integrate really well. When both are directly behind my seat, like within 3 inches I could not tell a lot of difference in terms of TR. I am not as sensitive to TR as others in this thread apparently but both can hit really hard when required and can have you lose your breath after a little while. I had the Yamaha at about 75% gain and I had to have the b1200d at 100% with boost on to level match and get similar TR. I have the Yamaha upside down on the floor to get the port at the middle of my back. The b1200d was right side up on a 20 inch stand and port was on about the same level as the Yamaha. The pros of the b1200d are that it is a lot cleaner/tighter even at high gain setting and doesn't add as much to the sound while giving good TR compared to the yamaha. The pros of the Yamaha are that it is just larger so it vibrates more of the back of the chair but it also penetrates through the chair better, and vibrates the bottom of the chair better - when the action in a movie is right in front of me vibrating the bottom of the chair as well as the back is a more authentic reaction than just the back of the chair alone. The other pro and the reason I will be keeping the yamaha over the B1200D is that i can't have the mbm right behind my seat because I like to recline my seat, so it has to move about 8 inches back. Doesn't sound like much but the B1200d could not keep up with the Yamaha in terms of TR when placed further back. I tried to return the B1200D to Amazon a few weeks ago before my return period expired but they wouldn't pay for or accept return shipping but since I spend ridiculous amounts of money on Amazon they just refunded all my money and didn't ask for the sub back. So free mbm! I will probably post it for sale here at some point soon.

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post #1623 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Bass boost is on (60). Haven't done anything with phase, but I will try boosting the gin and playing with phase and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestions.


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Having it 2 feet back would be too far for me with either the Yamaha or the Beringer. The closer the better but it had to definitely be within 1 ft for me to get the TR I want. Given your name I assume you work out. I think we floated the theory that the more muscular types may not be as sensitive to TR since Hopinator is a personal trainer or worked out a lot or something and wasn't feeling much either. I think I subscribe to that theory. I don't work out but most would describe me as muscular.


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post #1624 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I completely understand the frustration your having and asking for an REW graph seems like a flippant response that doesn't seem very helpful. However, measurements will tell you exactly what your hearing or feeling while removing the guesswork. More importantly, it will allow the community to help you because it allows everyone to see an objective view into your room and possibly find the root cause of the problem. Do you hear the MBM with the Mariana sub turned off?


I am able to hear a sort of heaviness overhanging the sound field without the Mariana.


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post #1625 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giftedmd View Post
Having it 2 feet back would be too far for me with either the Yamaha or the Beringer. The closer the better but it had to definitely be within 1 ft for me to get the TR I want. Given your name I assume you work out. I think we floated the theory that the more muscular types may not be as sensitive to TR since Hopinator is a personal trainer or worked out a lot or something and wasn't feeling much either. I think I subscribe to that theory. I don't work out but most would describe me as muscular.


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Thanks, I will try to move it closer, and yes, I am quite lean so I think you could be on to something there. It has gotten better with the gain increased. I plan on watching Terminator Salvation and seeing if I can get some of the impact others have reported.


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post #1626 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giftedmd View Post
Ok FINALLY got around to comparing the Yamaha dsr118w (18 inch PA sub) and the Behringer b1200d that I have sitting around for almost 2 months now. After using the Yamaha in my system for the past 2 months and very happy with the TR I was surprised at how good the B1200D performed. I have 4 PSA V1800s running on average at 2/3 gain and 6db hot in my avr so I like my bass hot. After getting my 4 main subs dialed in in the 4 corners of the room and running room correction (Anthem arc2),I daisy chained the mbm subs with my two rear subs. I ran both the Yamaha and b1200d in normal phase both integrate really well. When both are directly behind my seat, like within 3 inches I could not tell a lot of difference in terms of TR. I am not as sensitive to TR as others in this thread apparently but both can hit really hard when required and can have you lose your breath after a little while. I had the Yamaha at about 75% gain and I had to have the b1200d at 100% with boost on to level match and get similar TR. I have the Yamaha upside down on the floor to get the port at the middle of my back. The b1200d was right side up on a 20 inch stand and port was on about the same level as the Yamaha. The pros of the b1200d are that it is a lot cleaner/tighter even at high gain setting and doesn't add as much to the sound while giving good TR compared to the yamaha. The pros of the Yamaha are that it is just larger so it vibrates more of the back of the chair but it also penetrates through the chair better, and vibrates the bottom of the chair better - when the action in a movie is right in front of me vibrating the bottom of the chair as well as the back is a more authentic reaction than just the back of the chair alone. The other pro and the reason I will be keeping the yamaha over the B1200D is that i can't have the mbm right behind my seat because I like to recline my seat, so it has to move about 8 inches back. Doesn't sound like much but the B1200d could not keep up with the Yamaha in terms of TR when placed further back. I tried to return the B1200D to Amazon a few weeks ago before my return period expired but they wouldn't pay for or accept return shipping but since I spend ridiculous amounts of money on Amazon they just refunded all my money and didn't ask for the sub back. So free mbm! I will probably post it for sale here at some point soon.

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Nice review!

Very interesting how you felt the 18in yamaha had more penetrating TR from further away. Can't begin to theorize why...this is where only a Sound Intensity meter could give us the answer. But, I think this is great information as no one has yet to do this type of comparison. Well done.

And to top it all off, Amazon comes through with the free MBM . I've heard of that happening before...it's happened to me, but for something less that $20...

I know you've linked before, but can you link the Yamaha model you purchased? I will include in the first few posts as another viable commercial offering. I think you provided the FR showing tune as well? That would be helpful.
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post #1627 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giftedmd View Post
I think we floated the theory that the more muscular types may not be as sensitive to TR since Hopinator is a personal trainer or worked out a lot or something and wasn't feeling much either. I think I subscribe to that theory. I don't work out but most would describe me as muscular.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks, I will try to move it closer, and yes, I am quite lean so I think you could be on to something there.
I think it's less to do with your build and more to do with your chest cavity resonance.

I work out and consider myself fit, and am sensitive to the chest slam TR.
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post #1628 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
I think it's less to do with your build and more to do with your chest cavity resonance.



I work out and consider myself fit, and am sensitive to the chest slam TR.


Tight chest to feel tight bass - makes sense to me


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post #1629 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Nice review!

Very interesting how you felt the 18in yamaha had more penetrating TR from further away. Can't begin to theorize why...this is where only a Sound Intensity meter could give us the answer. But, I think this is great information as no one has yet to do this type of comparison. Well done.

And to top it all off, Amazon comes through with the free MBM . I've heard of that happening before...it's happened to me, but for something less that $20...

I know you've linked before, but can you link the Yamaha model you purchased? I will include in the first few posts as another viable commercial offering. I think you provided the FR showing tune as well? That would be helpful.
Here is my previous post with fr graph for the dsr118w (http://m.usa.yamaha.com/products/liv...s/dsr118w.html)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=48053297

and the graph from REW


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post #1630 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 01:50 PM
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Ran some Omnimic sweeps tonight. Did some tweaking also and here is the current graph.



I noticed that any HPF I put on messed up the response below 40hz so I turned it off. I think the unit might have one built in. Also my LPF at 80hz was too steep. Changed it from a 48db to 24db per octave and it smoothed out the response above 80hz. Added a tiny bit of delay but it really didn't need anything.

Sounds even better now! Can adjust the levels easily in the mini dsp app to add a bit more midbass as needed.

Just found a longer USB cable to attach to my minidsp. Can quickly A/B turning the MBM's on and off. It sounds great without them, but when I turn them on gunshots have so much more weight to them. I added about a 2db increase in level from the above graph and think I will keep it there.

2 great test scenes to get a feel for how well these work are in the Book of Eli. The first one is the shootout scene (ch 12 @ 52 min) and the assault on the house scene (ch 18 @ 78 min). Huge difference with the MBM's on/off. At reference the Gatling gun feels like it is taking over my heartbeat.
Any thoughts on how the MBM's can be affecting my response down below 20hz?
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post #1631 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 02:11 PM
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After incorporating a couple of helpful suggestions (MBM right up against seat back, increased volume), I was able to experience my first MBM moment! I was watching GOT season 5 when the dragon fire blows up the Sept. wow!! I felt it in front from the Mariana, under the seat from the Crowsons and in the back from the MBM. I'm reluctance to fool with measuring and calibrating it's so good the way it is now. I can die a happy man! Thanks for all of your help and suggestions!


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post #1632 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Any thoughts on how the MBM's can be affecting my response down below 20hz?
most likely explanation is your main subs received a stronger signal, the measurement of the 1200D shows that it has v little output in that range after all.
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post #1633 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 02:34 PM
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Tight chest to feel tight bass - makes sense to me.
So now we need to run a few tests with our (female) sig others?

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post #1634 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by giftedmd View Post
Ok FINALLY got around to comparing the Yamaha dsr118w (18 inch PA sub) and the Behringer b1200d that I have sitting around for almost 2 months now. After using the Yamaha in my system for the past 2 months and very happy with the TR I was surprised at how good the B1200D performed. I have 4 PSA V1800s running on average at 2/3 gain and 6db hot in my avr so I like my bass hot. After getting my 4 main subs dialed in in the 4 corners of the room and running room correction (Anthem arc2),I daisy chained the mbm subs with my two rear subs. I ran both the Yamaha and b1200d in normal phase both integrate really well. When both are directly behind my seat, like within 3 inches I could not tell a lot of difference in terms of TR. I am not as sensitive to TR as others in this thread apparently but both can hit really hard when required and can have you lose your breath after a little while. I had the Yamaha at about 75% gain and I had to have the b1200d at 100% with boost on to level match and get similar TR. I have the Yamaha upside down on the floor to get the port at the middle of my back. The b1200d was right side up on a 20 inch stand and port was on about the same level as the Yamaha. The pros of the b1200d are that it is a lot cleaner/tighter even at high gain setting and doesn't add as much to the sound while giving good TR compared to the yamaha. The pros of the Yamaha are that it is just larger so it vibrates more of the back of the chair but it also penetrates through the chair better, and vibrates the bottom of the chair better - when the action in a movie is right in front of me vibrating the bottom of the chair as well as the back is a more authentic reaction than just the back of the chair alone. The other pro and the reason I will be keeping the yamaha over the B1200D is that i can't have the mbm right behind my seat because I like to recline my seat, so it has to move about 8 inches back. Doesn't sound like much but the B1200d could not keep up with the Yamaha in terms of TR when placed further back. I tried to return the B1200D to Amazon a few weeks ago before my return period expired but they wouldn't pay for or accept return shipping but since I spend ridiculous amounts of money on Amazon they just refunded all my money and didn't ask for the sub back. So free mbm! I will probably post it for sale here at some point soon.

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Interesting comparison, and I understand your reasons for keeping the Yamaha. One thing that struck me in reading your post, is that the Yamaha was on the floor, and the 1200 was on a 20" stand. I would expect the Yamaha to be getting much more boundary gain from the floor than the 1200 was getting on a stand. Although I know you wanted to have the 1200 firing higher into your back, having both subs on the floor might also make for an interesting comparison.

Regards,
Mike
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post #1635 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 08:12 PM
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Here's an update to integrating two 1200d's into my system. I started with having them Co located on a sidewall very close to my LP. It sounded good but I knew it could be better. So I moved both of the MBM's. I put one on each end of my couch. I adjusted the time alignment with my 6 large subs on my back wall and made some very small gain adjustments on all of the subs. And bammmm, it all came together. Both with music and movies. The bass is so tight with music and the slam with movies is awesome. The blend between my large subwoofers and the MBM subs is seamless. I'm very happy with the results but it took a lot of trial and error.

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post #1636 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Interesting comparison, and I understand your reasons for keeping the Yamaha. One thing that struck me in reading your post, is that the Yamaha was on the floor, and the 1200 was on a 20" stand. I would expect the Yamaha to be getting much more boundary gain from the floor than the 1200 was getting on a stand. Although I know you wanted to have the 1200 firing higher into your back, having both subs on the floor might also make for an interesting comparison.

Regards,
Mike
Good idea. I tried again with both sitting on the floor upside down and they felt the same except the B1200d felt like it was shaking a lower part of the back of the chair but still not the same all around impact as the Yamaha which shakes the whole back of the chair and a lot of the bottom as well and I feel it more in my chest/more forceful from a few inches away from the seat. Not sure why, I brought up the idea before of the larger port on the 18 in just moving more air and therefore interacting with a larger surface area so it feels more impactful and more tactile even if it measures at the same SPL. Like a larger speaker at the same SPL has a larger sound than a smaller one at the same SPL. Maybe what I'm feeling as a more penetrating tactile response is just a function of more of my chair and my body experiencing the tactile response from the Yamaha relative to the Behringer.

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post #1637 of 3154 Old 01-02-2017, 09:26 PM
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I'm very happy with the results but it took a lot of trial and error.
It would be nice if we could come up with a more systematic approach.
Glad you got it working for you, though.
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post #1638 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 10:10 AM
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Its great to see all the success you guys are having with this sub giving you such TR. I haven't been in this thread for awhile, are most of you still finding the best success with it located behind your MLP or are more guys trying it out to the sides and getting success?

That was my problem, I had success with it behind my MLP but I wouldn't have been able to keep it there and when it was off to the side where I could keep it I lost the TR unless I turned it up to the point of losing SQ. It's cool to see so many of you getting such great response.

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post #1639 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 10:45 AM
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Its great to see all the success you guys are having with this sub giving you such TR. I haven't been in this thread for awhile, are most of you still finding the best success with it located behind your MLP or are more guys trying it out to the sides and getting success?

That was my problem, I had success with it behind my MLP but I wouldn't have been able to keep it there and when it was off to the side where I could keep it I lost the TR unless I turned it up to the point of losing SQ. It's cool to see so many of you getting such great response.
hopinator..that kind of sucks to hear..thats exactly how i was going to set mine up..I dont have room behind my couch for these...I wonder what others have had any success with them beside their couch as opposed to behind.
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post #1640 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 11:11 AM
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hopinator..that kind of sucks to hear..thats exactly how i was going to set mine up..I dont have room behind my couch for these...I wonder what others have had any success with them beside their couch as opposed to behind.


I'll be putting a 15" MBM on each side of the couch in a week or so. I'll let you guys know if it adds to the 18s that are already behind my couch.


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post #1641 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 11:33 AM
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hopinator..that kind of sucks to hear..thats exactly how i was going to set mine up..I dont have room behind my couch for these...I wonder what others have had any success with them beside their couch as opposed to behind.
The best successes along the side vs directly behind seems to require 2 MBMs (one on each side) instead of one.
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post #1642 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
I'll be putting a 15" MBM on each side of the couch in a week or so. I'll let you guys know if it adds to the 18s that are already behind my couch.
I did something similar to what you are contemplating only I used the PA460 instead. I built two MBMs tuned at 40hz based on some suggestions in this thread. Here's my build thread: Slot Ported Nearfield MBM w/ PA460. I compared designs using the PA460, PA380 and PA310.

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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
Well I ordered 2 pa380s. Should be here by the end of the week. I'm going to design the ported boxes tonight - something along the lines of 18w x 22h x 10d with a slotted port or some sort.
Aren't those dimensions a little on the smaller side for that driver? I think the volume that I was playing with for the PA380 was a slightly larger.
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post #1643 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The best successes along the side vs directly behind seems to require 2 MBMs (one on each side) instead of one.
+1.
Mark, Squirrel and myself have successfully integrated a pair of 1200D's on each side of the mlp and achieve great results.
If a sub (not just mbm)is not directly behind the mlp, 2 on each side is recommended. In the case of Hop, I believe he didn't run Audyssey or tried hard enough to integrate the 1200d to his system.
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post #1644 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
I did something similar to what you are contemplating only I used the PA460 instead. I built two MBMs tuned at 40hz based on some suggestions in this thread. Here's my build thread: Slot Ported Nearfield MBM w/ PA460. I compared designs using the PA460, PA380 and PA310.







Aren't those dimensions a little on the smaller side for that driver? I think the volume that I was playing with for the PA380 was a slightly larger.


Ya I redesigned the whole thing - final net volume is 1.9 cu ft tuned to ~58hz. 3 ports so if I need a lower tune i can just block a port and it should drop it about 10hz.


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post #1645 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
Ya I redesigned the whole thing - final net volume is 1.9 cu ft tuned to ~58hz. 3 ports so if I need a lower tune i can just block a port and it should drop it about 10hz.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
What are your final dimensions (including port size and length)? Do you have a build thread? Looking forward to seeing your completed design and build. The max output at 60hz based on sims for the three drivers (PA460, PA380 and PA310) in the three cabs that I was modeling came out to approximately 128db for two PA460s, 121db for two PA380s, and 117db for two PA310s.
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post #1646 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
+1.
Mark, Squirrel and myself have successfully integrated a pair of 1200D's on each side of the mlp and achieve great results.
If a sub (not just mbm)is not directly behind the mlp, 2 on each side is recommended. In the case of Hop, I believe he didn't run Audyssey or tried hard enough to integrate the 1200d to his system.
thats good to know..thank you.
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post #1647 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
What are your final dimensions (including port size and length)? Do you have a build thread? Looking forward to seeing your completed design and build. The max output at 60hz based on sims for the three drivers (PA460, PA380 and PA310) in the three cabs that I was modeling came out to approximately 128db for two PA460s, 121db for two PA380s, and 117db for two PA310s.
I dont think ill be doing a build thread for this one, depends how many pictures I end up taking. This time around im getting someone that lives a few streets down to cnc the whole thing for me due to the ice/rain/snow weve been getting.

I forgot I had changed it a bit thanks to @lz7j

- tuning will be ~60hz (if its within +/-5hz im happy)
- box is 20.75h x 18w x 14.75d
- ports are 2h x 5w x 7.5d
- hpf will be set at 55hz

I have 2 RA500s kicking around so i will be bridging them to power the pa380s.
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post #1648 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
+1.
Mark, Squirrel and myself have successfully integrated a pair of 1200D's on each side of the mlp and achieve great results.
If a sub (not just mbm)is not directly behind the mlp, 2 on each side is recommended. In the case of Hop, I believe he didn't run Audyssey or tried hard enough to integrate the 1200d to his system.
That's probably true. But the main reason I didn't dig into it deeper was because as you pointed out, it seems that most (or maybe even all) the guys who are putting them on the sides have to use two of them to make it work. I wasn't prepared to buy a 2nd one at the time so I decided to back out before investing more time. But I do believe it would have worked had I gone with duals as you did. Who knows, I may venture back down this road someday in the future. I'm glad you guys are getting such great results with it.
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post #1649 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey Tony, thanks for your simple setup solution, I just got approved for the Sweetwater 48 0% month card and it's ridiculous to not take advantage of that with two B1200Ds which I will place the order Friday morning, the price went up I see to $299, the free financing makes up for that.
@ahblaza , haven't seen you post here for a while. Did you not like the 1200D's added into your system?
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post #1650 of 3154 Old 01-03-2017, 05:51 PM
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Who knows, I may venture back down this road someday in the future.
Me says I will take that bet
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