Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 63 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1861 of 3120 Old 02-05-2017, 10:48 AM
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I have to admit that some of the discussions are a little over my head at times, too. But, I have followed the thread from the beginning, and there is no doubt in my mind that ported subs can deliver more measured and perceived tactile response, near their port tunes, than their sealed equivalents.

I think it is worth noting that, most scientific inquiry starts with empirical observation, as it did here. Ported subs appear to provide more tactile response than equivalent sealed subs. More sophisticated methods of measuring the observed phenomenon follow, as they have here. And, theories to explain the observed phenomenon are generated, tested, debated, modified, discarded, until some general consensus is reached (if it ever is). But, the observed phenomenon exists independently of the theories which attempt to explain its causality. And, that is also the case, here.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that any of what is being discussed on this thread is ready for journal publication. But, irrespective of having completely satisfying theories to explain the phenomenon, people reading the thread can certainly benefit from implementing some of the ideas expressed in the thread, in their own home theaters.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #1862 of 3120 Old 02-05-2017, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amnesia0287 View Post
Has anyone tested with Rhytmik subs? If his theory is right then the adjustable Q should change the TR pretty drastically no?
I have a pair of FV15HPs.

Adjusting the Q can have an impact on the amount of TR as it may increase/decrease the SPL, in turn affecting SIL.

However, the ratio of SPL to PVL will not change. IOW, that ratio is solely based on the design of the sub...no amount of EQ can change that.
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post #1863 of 3120 Old 02-05-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have to admit that some of the discussions are a little over my head at times, too. But, I have followed the thread from the beginning, and there is no doubt in my mind that ported subs can deliver more measured and perceived tactile response, near their port tunes, than their sealed equivalents.

I think it is worth noting that, most scientific inquiry starts with empirical observation, as it did here. Ported subs appear to provide more tactile response than equivalent sealed subs. More sophisticated methods of measuring the observed phenomenon follow, as they have here. And, theories to explain the observed phenomenon are generated, tested, debated, modified, discarded, until some general consensus is reached (if it ever is). But, the observed phenomenon exists independently of the theories which attempt to explain its causality. And, that is also the case, here.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that any of what is being discussed on this thread is ready for journal publication. But, irrespective of having completely satisfying theories to explain the phenomenon, people reading the thread can certainly benefit from implementing some of the ideas expressed in the thread, in their own home theaters.

Regards,
Mike
+1. Very well said sir.
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post #1864 of 3120 Old 02-05-2017, 12:53 PM
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So TR = High SPL @ midbass port tune with nearfield subs ÷ booty shake, and this equals a happy butt? Yes! Moar sciency sound stuff please, me likey 😃.

In all seriousness, I'm grateful for those that are passionate experts and pioneers in this wonderful field of audio, so that little ol' Joe can have a sublime setup with minimal effort.
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post #1865 of 3120 Old 02-06-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1866 of 3120 Old 02-06-2017, 02:52 PM
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Hey @dominguez1 , thanks for the mention! All the discussion here in this thread is a big inspiration and source of motivation.

Just a note to those running ported subs and MBMs behind the couch ( @lz7j , @raynist , @SBuger , etc):
I did some testing today (measured current through the sub) to see what the actual box tune was of the 3 cuft MBM I built for a 15" Dayton PA380.
I found out that positioning it immediately behind the couch effectively lowers the tune! With 2 ports my tune went from 46.5Hz to 44Hz. With 1 port the box tune went from 35Hz to 33.5 Hz. I have the port positioned a half inch or so from the couch, so pretty close.
I'm not sure if I had really thought about it before, but having the ports so close to the couch is just like extending the port which lowers the tune of any box. Just like having the port close to the floor or close to a wall. Ports also extend along boundaries inside the box (which is probably the main reason my box tune turned out lower than I expected anyway). My couch is cloth, so it breathes a bit. I imagine a leather couch might have an even more pronounced effect.

So, I'm sure this isn't really news to most of you guys, but I measured the results today, so I just thought I'd share them with you.

HT setup: Vizio 50" 4K | Xbox & PS3 | Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX | Bose 701 towers (V1) | JBL S Center | Def Tech Reference SuperCube & DIY Nearfield cabinet ported UM18 dual ported PA380 ULF+MBM
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post #1867 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
Hey @dominguez1 , thanks for the mention! All the discussion here in this thread is a big inspiration and source of motivation.

Just a note to those running ported subs and MBMs behind the couch ( @lz7j , @raynist , @SBuger , etc):
I did some testing today (measured current through the sub) to see what the actual box tune was of the 3 cuft MBM I built for a 15" Dayton PA380.
I found out that positioning it immediately behind the couch effectively lowers the tune! With 2 ports my tune went from 46.5Hz to 44Hz. With 1 port the box tune went from 35Hz to 33.5 Hz. I have the port positioned a half inch or so from the couch, so pretty close.
I'm not sure if I had really thought about it before, but having the ports so close to the couch is just like extending the port which lowers the tune of any box. Just like having the port close to the floor or close to a wall. Ports also extend along boundaries inside the box (which is probably the main reason my box tune turned out lower than I expected anyway). My couch is cloth, so it breathes a bit. I imagine a leather couch might have an even more pronounced effect.

So, I'm sure this isn't really news to most of you guys, but I measured the results today, so I just thought I'd share them with you.
Nice! I had heard that it could have the effect, but don't think anyone's tested it before. Good example.
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@ViciousDelicious (I feel silly calling another grown @$$ man Delicious!), why do you believe sealed will give you higher quality bass?
We could always call him Mr.VD :O
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post #1869 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 03:22 PM
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My biggest problem with this is the audio fad flip that it represents...

Not long ago the obsession was crossing lower and not crossing higher is all the rage
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Demo material

I discovered AVCHDCoder, a freeware program for making, as you might imagine, an AVCHD disc from video files. It is VERY basic, but, as far as I can tell, it works.
The opening screen displays for about 20 seconds and lists the files. Pay attention, because the main menu only offers generic boxes with numbers. You can fast forward or skip through a selection to get back to the menu, but stop ends the program.
I mention this because, as an experiment and to gauge interest (and because I don't have a real life ), I have a 3.0 GB file of mid-bass music available as a torrent, zip attached.
Also posted to Mega:
https://mega.nz/#!EdlSDRBB!m1XwieBTO...-BMayj9qDQZrnE
Let me know if it works and if you enjoy it.
Michael
Attached Files
File Type: zip mid-bass demo music.zip.torrent.zip (15.4 KB, 25 views)
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1871 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
My biggest problem with this is the audio fad flip that it represents...

Not long ago the obsession was crossing lower and not crossing higher is all the rage
I am still curious... How do you handle localization?
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post #1872 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@ViciousDelicious (I feel silly calling another grown @$$ man Delicious!), why do you believe sealed will give you higher quality bass?
From what I understand ported subs, while being more efficient in some frequencies exhibit more overall distortion of the sound due to 2 things - quite a significant group delay near port tune as well as longer decay of the notes near the tune (similar but not the same). From what I've seen on Databass ported subs always have a lot more "rinigng" and quite an extreme rise in groupd delay, unless I missed a really great ported sub it always seemed to be the conventional wisdom that if you want to go for precision the sealed subs are a better option. Sealed subs also potentailly go lower (but you need more of them), there aren't many ported subs that can go to single digits, but some definitely can and are tuned to do so. Would this not be a correct asssessment of ported vs sealed "situation" ?

P.S. I guess the point of having a nickname is having funny ones, if I'm going to have one

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I think this way may get you close to ported "particle velocity" yet using a sealed subs. The manifold will act as a port, is my theory anyway and increase efficiency.(I don't know how to use Horn Resp to look at the #s to compare them) I also don't know if it would show what you would actually feel or experience in real life because a smaller port will have higher particle velocity but it can't be too small, like a port 1" vs a 6" will show higher air velocity but it needs to be a minimum size at the same time to work in the real world.

I know this works as far as increasing output and efficiency just from trying two separate subwoofers out in my room and putting one corner of them touching so they in a V shape with drivers firing towards each other(this could work with 2 1200D also I would imagine if someone wanted to use 2 on 1 chair, unless it would put the ports too far back for the chair?). It increases the output and subjectively it feels like more tactile feel just having them in the V out in the room. I haven't actually tried it and measured it for tactile feel directly behind my chair but it seems like it should help since it is "funneling" and "focusing" the air more.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post50409841
This is really interesting. Thanks for this! Has anyone measured the actual vibration using this technique? Physically one explanation that I could think of is that since there's less air in a certain space and more "force" exherted on that region from both woofers the particles are "squeezed out" of that space with higher velocity. I have a couple of subs here I could try this on (more in my next post).


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think it is worth noting that, most scientific inquiry starts with empirical observation, as it did here. Ported subs appear to provide more tactile response than equivalent sealed subs. More sophisticated methods of measuring the observed phenomenon follow, as they have here. And, theories to explain the observed phenomenon are generated, tested, debated, modified, discarded, until some general consensus is reached (if it ever is). But, the observed phenomenon exists independently of the theories which attempt to explain its causality. And, that is also the case, here.
This is mostly true but whether the phenomenon exists isn't debated as much as trying to understand why it does and trying to use that understanding to help finetune other theater setups that aren't necessarily using a near field ported setup to do so.
I am still very interested in more detailed measurements of the waves generated by both subs (more in the anecdotal evidence in the next post).

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We could always call him Mr.VD :O
That would be sir Vin Diesel. But I'm sure some would argue that he's sort of Vicious and Delicious as well...
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post #1873 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 05:21 PM
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I wanted to share some anecdotal evidence as something quite interesting happened in my theater recently that's quite relevant to the subject at hand.

So I'm currenlty in the process of upgrading the overall acoustics and the sound quality of the theater and waiting on 4 funk subs on order as well as speaker upgrades.
I was never happy with the base produced by my B&W subs. My room was done by a professional acoustician that supposedly did big mastering rooms and yada yada.
But I never really "felt" the base as much as I expected and there were more other acoustical problems in the room that I was able to measure with REW and wasn't quite happy.
Long story short I brought another acoustician to look at the room and what he immediately pointed out was a "rookie mistake" where all of my front speakers/subs were placed on a wooden built pedestal.
This pedestal was quite heavy but not nearly as heavy as the speakers or the subs (each weighing at around 70-80 pounds).
What this meant in his words is that the speaker is not able to efficiently push air since some of the energy is being absorbed by vibrating the pedestal.
We did a quick test where we took the LR speakers and the 2 subs from behind the transparent screen and placed them on the floor.


This is how theater "debugging" looks like...

I have calibrated the system with Dirac after it to get the same frequency response as before. The waterfall chart - identical, FR - almost identical, SPL measrued - identical. RT60? identical.
But WHAT A HUGE FREAKING DIFFERENCE IN SOUND.

I couldn't believe how much better both the speakers and the subs sounded when positioned on the floor...
In fact I'm now listening to a system with just the 2 subs and not 4 as I used to! The two back subs are disabled for the sake of testing as well as them being put on the equipment rack carpentry so I'm trying to avoid the same "vibration problem"
The mud in the sound is gone, the couch is going crazy and I can feel the close to "single digit" vibrations with low base drone slides.

So in both cases the subs are playing the same signal, the waves are measured the same SPL and same FR but the tactile response is VERY different.
In both cases these were the same sealed subs and the difference is staggering.
Note that the pedestal wasn't very high and in both cases there's Dirac EQ so the difference in FR is minimal (if any) so it can't be attributed to speakers being closer to the floor. Not the character of the sound and the transparancy.
This is why I think the actual shape of physical waves produced by the sub matters just as much for the resulting TR.
Maybe having a "sharper" and less compressed or smeared base means that you get more vibration just because of the nature of waves.

I will have to look into how to rebuild the front wall to accomodate this since I'm going with bigger subs and speakers too...
Super excited to hear how Funk Audio subs will sound since that's a whole different beast comparing to B&W.
I'm also looking into proper base trapping using diaphragmatic absorbtion that should further decrease "echo" in the base in the room and make it even sharper with less wave cancellations in MLP which should result in an even better TR (I hope).

Note that RT60 in this room is quite great - under 150-200ms for all frequencies. But still pre-Dirac FR has some dips and peaks in the response which means that there's phase cancellation happening due to the reflections of the base within the room. Using 4 subs makes the measurements much better but it does not minimize the reflections and the resulting "phase craze" that's happening. Only true base trap can clean up the base and restore the proper "impact", most say. So I'm looking forward to the difference this will make.
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post #1874 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
My biggest problem with this is the audio fad flip that it represents...

Not long ago the obsession was crossing lower and not crossing higher is all the rage
I agree. There may be an element of audio fad. However, many here are pushing the limits of in-home bass reproduction. A single or dual MBMs can and has taken many people's listening/watching/feeling experience to another level. The tactile element can be considered its own dimension of a theater experience (ever tried D-box). Now, I can't stop watching Mad Max: Fury Road. I feel like I am in and on the vehicles (I have 3D, Atmos, multiple sealed subs, TTs, and MBMs).

I feel that someone without a mic and the ability to proficiently utilize REW or Omnimic has no business trying to integrate a MBM.

Someone with just a single sub should not be trying to integrate a MBM without integrating dual subs first.

I also feel that many should invest in Tactile Tranducers or Motion Actuators before trying to integrate an MBM. My MBMs pick up where my TTs drop off.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 02-09-2017 at 05:04 PM.
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post #1875 of 3120 Old 02-07-2017, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ViciousDelicious View Post
So I'm currenlty in the process of upgrading the overall acoustics and the sound quality of the theater and waiting on 4 funk subs on order as well as speaker upgrades.
What are the dimensions of your room? Why were your subs on a platform? Is your seating on a platform? I'm sure you will love the Funks. I wish I could afford them. Instead I am "slumming" with PSAs, 4 sealed 15s in a 3000ft³ room.

I'm lucky that my room is upstairs and on a 6" platform floor. Mad Max: Fury Road is night/day when I flip off the TTs and/or MBMs. People don't even know I have TTs. I feel like the MBMs also help hide this fact. Everyone just believes my subs are out of this world until I show them the TTs. I don't even try to explain the MBMs. They are just additional subs. I just say I have four 15s and two 12s.

I'm currently working with GIK on bass traps.

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Originally Posted by ViciousDelicious View Post
P.S. I guess the point of having a nickname is having funny ones, if I'm going to have one
I've been posting since the early days back before everyone on the Internet was anonymous, so unfortunately I have no cool nickname.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 02-07-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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post #1876 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
My biggest problem with this is the audio fad flip that it represents...

Not long ago the obsession was crossing lower and not crossing higher is all the rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
I am still curious... How do you handle localization?
Hi,

I agree that there is a somewhat faddish aspect to this, in that as soon as someone discovers a slightly different way to experience bass in movies or music, other people will naturally become curious, as well. But, FWIW, this isn't an entirely new concept. Dr. Earl Geddes, for instance, has long been an advocate of emphasizing frequencies from about 50Hz and up, via the use of mid-bass modules. The newness here lies more in Dom's exploration of the tactile benefits of an MBM. I believe that there is a certain amount of self-selection involved in this renewed interest in MBM's, as there is in many aspects of audio. People who would like to experience more mid-bass chest compression, or impact, are good candidates to try a nearfield MBM.

With respect to the localization issue, I think that is also somewhat dependent on the individual, in terms of how his system is configured, and with respect to his personal preferences. As Marc pointed out, most of the people experimenting with an MBM already have at least dual subs, and many have more than that. So, overall bass is not going to be particularly localizable. But, even with a single sub, which I know is the case with at least one or two people on the thread, there may be some willing acceptance of a degree of localization for mid-bass phenomena.

In my opinion, chest impact--a mid-bass sound that is fairly sudden and emphatic--is directional, by definition. Whether it is the low strum of an upright bass (one of my personal favorites) or a kick-drum, or an explosion, the sound typically has to have some degree of directionality to register as a chest punch to me. There certainly may be exceptions to that, but I don't think that localization is necessarily a bad thing in this particular context.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 02-09-2017 at 08:24 AM.
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post #1877 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousDelicious View Post
I wanted to share some anecdotal evidence as something quite interesting happened in my theater recently that's quite relevant to the subject at hand.

So I'm currenlty in the process of upgrading the overall acoustics and the sound quality of the theater and waiting on 4 funk subs on order as well as speaker upgrades.
I was never happy with the base produced by my B&W subs. My room was done by a professional acoustician that supposedly did big mastering rooms and yada yada.
But I never really "felt" the base as much as I expected and there were more other acoustical problems in the room that I was able to measure with REW and wasn't quite happy.
Long story short I brought another acoustician to look at the room and what he immediately pointed out was a "rookie mistake" where all of my front speakers/subs were placed on a wooden built pedestal.
This pedestal was quite heavy but not nearly as heavy as the speakers or the subs (each weighing at around 70-80 pounds).
What this meant in his words is that the speaker is not able to efficiently push air since some of the energy is being absorbed by vibrating the pedestal.
We did a quick test where we took the LR speakers and the 2 subs from behind the transparent screen and placed them on the floor.


This is how theater "debugging" looks like...

I have calibrated the system with Dirac after it to get the same frequency response as before. The waterfall chart - identical, FR - almost identical, SPL measrued - identical. RT60? identical.
But WHAT A HUGE FREAKING DIFFERENCE IN SOUND.

I couldn't believe how much better both the speakers and the subs sounded when positioned on the floor...
In fact I'm now listening to a system with just the 2 subs and not 4 as I used to! The two back subs are disabled for the sake of testing as well as them being put on the equipment rack carpentry so I'm trying to avoid the same "vibration problem"
The mud in the sound is gone, the couch is going crazy and I can feel the close to "single digit" vibrations with low base drone slides.

So in both cases the subs are playing the same signal, the waves are measured the same SPL and same FR but the tactile response is VERY different.
In both cases these were the same sealed subs and the difference is staggering.
Note that the pedestal wasn't very high and in both cases there's Dirac EQ so the difference in FR is minimal (if any) so it can't be attributed to speakers being closer to the floor. Not the character of the sound and the transparancy.
This is why I think the actual shape of physical waves produced by the sub matters just as much for the resulting TR.
Maybe having a "sharper" and less compressed or smeared base means that you get more vibration just because of the nature of waves.

I will have to look into how to rebuild the front wall to accomodate this since I'm going with bigger subs and speakers too...
Super excited to hear how Funk Audio subs will sound since that's a whole different beast comparing to B&W.
I'm also looking into proper base trapping using diaphragmatic absorbtion that should further decrease "echo" in the base in the room and make it even sharper with less wave cancellations in MLP which should result in an even better TR (I hope).

Note that RT60 in this room is quite great - under 150-200ms for all frequencies. But still pre-Dirac FR has some dips and peaks in the response which means that there's phase cancellation happening due to the reflections of the base within the room. Using 4 subs makes the measurements much better but it does not minimize the reflections and the resulting "phase craze" that's happening. Only true base trap can clean up the base and restore the proper "impact", most say. So I'm looking forward to the difference this will make.
Hi,

I think that the four Funk subs will be terrific. I have a very high regard for Nathan, and for his subs. I will enjoy hearing about them once they are installed. In most respects, I think that you are very lucky to have a wood floor in your HT. Some kind of treatment, like what you have added to yours, is certainly desirable for mid-range and higher frequencies. But, it won't affect the lower bass frequencies, at all. And, wood floors transmit tactile bass sensations to listeners, in a way that concrete, for instance, simply can't.

In raising the subs up off the floor, your former acoustician was not only reducing the subs' potential boundary gain, due to their contact with the floor, he was also reducing the amount of tactile bass which the subs were capable of transmitting. I have a concrete floor, and I have to work much harder to achieve good tactile ULF, than you will ever have to with your wood floor. Four Funks should light you up!

Regards,
Mike
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post #1878 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 08:19 AM
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Hi,

I agree that there is a somewhat faddish aspect to this, in that as soon as someone discovers a slightly different way to experience bass in movies or music, other people will naturally become curious, as well. But, FWIW, this isn't really a new concept. Dr. Earl Geddes, for instance, has long been an advocate of emphasizing frequencies from about 50Hz and up, via the use of mid-bass modules. I believe that there is a certain amount of self-selection involved in this too, as there is in many aspects of audio. People who would like to experience more mid-bass chest compression, or impact, are good candidates to try a nearfield MBM.

With respect to the localization issue, I think that is also somewhat dependent on the individual, in terms of how his system is configured, and with respect to his personal preferences. As Marc pointed out, most of the people experimenting with an MBM already have at least dual subs, and many have more than that. So, overall bass is not going to be particularly localizable. But, even with a single sub, which I know is the case with at least one or two people on the thread, there may be some willing acceptance of a degree of localization for mid-bass phenomena.

In my opinion, chest impact--a mid-bass sound that is fairly sudden and emphatic--is directional, by definition. Whether it is the low strum of an upright bass (one of my personal favorites) or a kick-drum, or an explosion, the sound typically has to have some degree of directionality to register as a chest punch to me. There certainly may be exceptions to that, but I don't think that localization is necessarily a bad thing in this particular context.

Regards,
Mike
Directional from behind you instead of Infront sounds terrible...

This all seems like everyone is plugging their ears (lalala can't hear you, this problem isn't real) about localization. Seems like a terrible trade off.
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post #1879 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 08:43 AM
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Directional from behind you instead of Infront sounds terrible...

This all seems like everyone is plugging their ears (lalala can't hear you, this problem isn't real) about localization. Seems like a terrible trade off.
That's two "seems like" in consecutive sentences. So, is it terrible because you have personally tried a nearfield mid-bass monitor, and it sounded terrible, or is this just speculative? I'm not being unkind in asking that question. Most people can start to localize bass sounds to some extent from about 60Hz, or 80Hz, up. Some tactile sensations may be localizable at even lower frequencies than that.

But, the mid-bass chest thump that people are talking about here only starts at about 50Hz, and goes up to about 120Hz, or so. And, it will generally have overtones higher than that. So, the sounds are, indeed, probably going to be somewhat localizable, regardless. Getting your subs to integrate properly to have the sound you want is always going to be very much a personal endeavor. But, I would certainly not assume that all of the people on this thread have their fingers in their ears, denying that their audio now sounds terrible, due to the addition of one or more MBM's. There will be a lot of YMMV in how they integrate their subs.

I think it's a long stretch to go from "faddish" to "terrible". And, there are some very experienced, and keenly interested, audio enthusiasts who are trying nearfield MBM's. I would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing with their HT's, even if I tried it, and it didn't work as well for me. Just a personal viewpoint.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #1880 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 09:35 AM
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I have two very large subs in the front of my room, along with two slightly smaller, less powerful subs in the back of the room which are about 12' closer to the MLP. Add in the little 1200D directly behind my chair and the bass just seems to come from everywhere all at once. Not directional, not localizable...just very pleasing to the ears. Well, to my ears at least.
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post #1881 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 01:43 PM
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That's two "seems like" in consecutive sentences. So, is it terrible because you have personally tried a nearfield mid-bass monitor, and it sounded terrible, or is this just speculative? I'm not being unkind in asking that question. Most people can start to localize bass sounds to some extent from about 60Hz, or 80Hz, up. Some tactile sensations may be localizable at even lower frequencies than that.

But, the mid-bass chest thump that people are talking about here only starts at about 50Hz, and goes up to about 120Hz, or so. And, it will generally have overtones higher than that. So, the sounds are, indeed, probably going to be somewhat localizable, regardless. Getting your subs to integrate properly to have the sound you want is always going to be very much a personal endeavor. But, I would certainly not assume that all of the people on this thread have their fingers in their ears, denying that their audio now sounds terrible, due to the addition of one or more MBM's. There will be a lot of YMMV in how they integrate their subs.

I think it's a long stretch to go from "faddish" to "terrible". And, there are some very experienced, and keenly interested, audio enthusiasts who are trying nearfield MBM's. I would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing with their HT's, even if I tried it, and it didn't work as well for me. Just a personal viewpoint.
My point is something is wrong... Either a or b... Bass is localized or it is not... Which is it?
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My point is something is wrong... Either a or b... Bass is localized or it is not... Which is it?
I think that is a very fair question. I just don't know the answer to it. And, I'm not sure that it's a binary yes/no answer. There are at least two aspects to localization: sound and tactile response. For most people, sounds are localizable above about 80Hz, so where speakers cross over to subs can also be a factor. But, then there is tactile response, and I'm not sure at what frequency felt bass is localizable. Personally, I think that we can "feel" directionality at much lower frequencies than we can hear it.

Then there is another variable which might be important. A few months ago, there was a good discussion on the thread about the extent to which different people feel tactile mid-bass, and the way that they characterize it as chest punch, versus chest pressure. I came away from that discussion convinced that we don't all feel mid-bass tactile effects in the same way, and that we don't all describe what we feel in the same way.

So, take Alan's post for instance. When he says that he can't localize the bass--that it "sounds" good to his ears--that suggests to me that he is talking about the audible aspect of bass localization. But, if he feels an increase in mid-bass tactile response, from a nearfield MBM, is he aware of directionality with respect to that tactile sensation? I am aware of directionality with respect to tactile sensations, even more than I am for fairly low bass sounds. But, I just don't know how common or uncommon that directional sense is. And, if it is common for people to feel some directionality from increased tactile mid-bass, due to a nearfield MBM, are they consciously aware of it? And, if they are consciously aware of it, is there some willing acceptance of that tactile localization effect, in order to have more chest punch?

That last part was sort of where I was going with this idea in my two previous posts. But, we would have to hear an answer, from some other people, to find out whether there is even the most general consensus on the issue. I do know that some people on the thread have found that the volume of the MBM has to be carefully regulated, so that the MBM will integrate well acoustically (sound wise) with other subs in their systems, and not call too much attention to itself. And, I also know that even the tactile effects can be more overwhelming for some people than for others and that some individuals have backed off the volume, or even the nearfield distance in order to equalize the tactile effects. In a few cases, people have added a second nearfield MBM to avoid the too close proximity of a single sub, and to spread-out the acoustical and tactile effects.

All of those variances in implementation tell me that there is significant variability in the way that we experience bass sounds and tactile effects. How much that individual variability is affected by rooms and system configurations, and how much of it involves our own physiological and psycho-acoustic differences, I have no idea. So, again, I think you are asking a good question, but I think that the answer to it is going to be very individualistic. An awful lot of questions involving audio are best answered with the phrase: It depends.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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My point is something is wrong... Either a or b... Bass is localized or it is not... Which is it?
tactile response is localised because it is a physical effect felt on specific parts of your body, that's unavoidable. If the delivery mechanism for that tactile response also delivers an audible effect that pulls your perception of the sound towards that location as well then IMV something is wrong, that something IME is the nearfield sub is running too hot. However I suppose some people may well prioritise tactile response over localised audible sound so accept that is the cost of getting that tactile hit.
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post #1884 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 03:32 PM
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tactile response is localised because it is a physical effect felt on specific parts of your body, that's unavoidable. If the delivery mechanism for that tactile response also delivers an audible effect that pulls your perception of the sound towards that location as well then IMV something is wrong, that something IME is the nearfield sub is running too hot. However I suppose some people may well prioritise tactile response over localised audible sound so accept that is the cost of getting that tactile hit.
The tactile effects I feel from my MBM (and my other subs for that matter) are not localizable at all. I feel it in my body and in my chair from what seem to me equally from all directions, and no direction at all (if that makes sense). If I can localize the MBM, it is just like d00d said, something is not right (gain, crossover, phase).
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post #1885 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 05:08 PM
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My biggest problem with this is the audio fad flip that it represents...
From your posts it sounds like you have no intention of trying a MBM. You are not alone, but most don't post here. What is your goal here in this thread? Why do you feel there is any problem? Are we pan&scanning widescreen movies?
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post #1886 of 3120 Old 02-09-2017, 07:18 PM
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Directional from behind you instead of Infront sounds terrible...

This all seems like everyone is plugging their ears (lalala can't hear you, this problem isn't real) about localization. Seems like a terrible trade off.
That's two "seems like" in consecutive sentences. So, is it terrible because you have personally tried a nearfield mid-bass monitor, and it sounded terrible, or is this just speculative? I'm not being unkind in asking that question. Most people can start to localize bass sounds to some extent from about 60Hz, or 80Hz, up. Some tactile sensations may be localizable at even lower frequencies than that.

But, the mid-bass chest thump that people are talking about here only starts at about 50Hz, and goes up to about 120Hz, or so. And, it will generally have overtones higher than that. So, the sounds are, indeed, probably going to be somewhat localizable, regardless. Getting your subs to integrate properly to have the sound you want is always going to be very much a personal endeavor. But, I would certainly not assume that all of the people on this thread have their fingers in their ears, denying that their audio now sounds terrible, due to the addition of one or more MBM's. There will be a lot of YMMV in how they integrate their subs.

I think it's a long stretch to go from "faddish" to "terrible". And, there are some very experienced, and keenly interested, audio enthusiasts who are trying nearfield MBM's. I would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing with their HT's, even if I tried it, and it didn't work as well for me. Just a personal viewpoint.
Tactile bass cannot be localized by feeling. It may be that the MBM is overpowering the other subs so you are HEARING localized sound, but the sensation of feeling sound is an effect of resonance which means it's literally part of you vibrating (as in back and forth). It is not as if the subwoofer is blowing on you.

You also cannot localize low frequency sound from directly behind as the phase shift would be consistent for both ears. I'd also imagine given how close many people are putting the MBMs, and that there is a couch between them and the MBM, they may we'll be effecting the phase and reflections more than that. If I remember right, low frequency sound is much harder to localize when you are within 1/4th wavelength of the point of origin. 80hz is 14ft, which means ~3.5ft is the cutoff (I could be wrong about this as I cannot remember where I read it).
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Tactile bass cannot be localized by feeling. It may be that the MBM is overpowering the other subs so you are HEARING localized sound, but the sensation of feeling sound is an effect of resonance which means it's literally part of you vibrating (as in back and forth). It is not as if the subwoofer is blowing on you.

You also cannot localize low frequency sound from directly behind as the phase shift would be consistent for both ears. I'd also imagine given how close many people are putting the MBMs, and that there is a couch between them and the MBM, they may we'll be effecting the phase and reflections more than that. If I remember right, low frequency sound is much harder to localize when you are within 1/4th wavelength of the point of origin. 80hz is 14ft, which means ~3.5ft is the cutoff (I could be wrong about this as I cannot remember where I read it).
Hi,

I respectfully, but comprehensively disagree with that statement, as I absolutely can identify directionality with mid and low bass sensations--not sounds. And, I suspect that many others can, as well. I do not, if fact, have an MBM, precisely because I already feel tactile bass fairly keenly in the mid-bass range, and don't need one. And, I can quite frequently tell what general direction it is coming from. Tactile effects in the mid-bass range, typically associated with chest punch, are actually fairly easy for me to distinguish as front or rear, as the percussive point of origin is different, and again I won't be alone in that regard. And, the ears are not involved at all in that chest punch sensation. It is just the torso reverberating from certain mid-bass frequencies.

Although, I don't require an MBM in my system to get perfectly adequate tactile mid-bass, I do, however have a nearfield full-range sub, located just behind my listening position, in order to increase my tactile ULF. And, again those sound waves create distinguishable physical pressure that is, at times, directional. Some people refer to the phenomenon of feeling bass sensations (not sounds) as bass envelopment. I have four subs, on four opposing walls, largely to equalize my bass envelopment, because it is too easy for me to feel where bass is coming (and not coming) from. Not so much as a sound, but as a tactile sensation. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
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It is not about the ears/hearing where the bass is coming from, it is the physical sensation of the bass hitting the back of my chair and I can tell it is coming from behind me. Versus having the sub out in front of me and even though the tactile intensity is reduced I can then feel it hitting me from the front(my thighs and shins especially since they are at the subwoofer's level and so is the port). It is pretty simple to test for yourself and see.

Or even go lay right in front of any sub you have with it cranked up, first with your back towards the sub and then with your front/chest towards the sub, you mean to tell me you cannot feel where/direction the sound waves that are hitting you are coming from?

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Hi,

I respectfully, but comprehensively disagree with that statement, as I absolutely can identify directionality with mid and low bass sensations--not sounds. And, I suspect that many others can, as well. I do not, if fact, have an MBM, precisely because I already feel tactile bass fairly keenly in the mid-bass range, and don't need one. And, I can quite frequently tell what general direction it is coming from. Tactile effects in the mid-bass range, typically associated with chest punch, are actually fairly easy for me to distinguish as front or rear, as the percussive point of origin is different, and again I won't be alone in that regard. And, the ears are not involved at all in that chest punch sensation. It is just the torso reverberating from certain mid-bass frequencies.

Although, I don't require an MBM in my system to get perfectly adequate tactile mid-bass, I do, however have a nearfield full-range sub, located just behind my listening position, in order to increase my tactile ULF. And, again those sound waves create distinguishable physical pressure that is, at times, directional. Some people refer to the phenomenon of feeling bass sensations (not sounds) as bass envelopment. I have four subs, on four opposing walls, largely to equalize my bass envelopment, because it is too easy for me to feel where bass is coming (and not coming) from. Not so much as a sound, but as a tactile sensation. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
I would imagine what you are actually feeling is the difference between your couch vibrating which in turn vibrates your back, and then your chest resonating in the front. I also find your claims dubious as you are ignoring psycho-acoustics and the idea that your brain is hearing sounds you may not be. Your brain is smart, if you hear low frequency sound and feel low frequency sound, your brain will use those cues to associate the two and provide the perception of localization. Believe it or not, even just seeing your subwoofers as they produce bass effects your perception of localization.

Unless you are testing your system while rocking like earplugs covered by heavy duty earmuffs, you have no possible way to determine which effect is causing localization.

You have to remember human sound localization is EXTREMELY complex and a big part of what allows our localization to be as accurate as it is, is the proximity from our ear drums to our brains. Humans ability to identify and separate sound generally exceeds the abilities of machines. And we are able to identify and separate direct source sound from reflected sound even when the reflected sound is heard first because of the time scale which our brain can hear and process data. The nerves in your chest and back enjoy no such benefits. Your ears might not be a part of the chest impact sensation, BUT, the association of that impact with a direction is.

Even with hearing, the way we identify direction is by measuring phase shift at a ridiculous time scale, there is NO WAY your nerves are fast enough to feel the pressure wave hit one part of your body before another. And given that the speed of your nerves for the sense of touch is around 76.2 m/s. the speed of sound is 340m/s at sea level there is not enough time to differentiate the direction of vibration.

This is easily demonstrated though a deaf people generally cannot localize bass and generally even people with single ear deafness struggle greatly with sound localization.


Also, it's not until you hit 195db where you cross the threshold from sound moving through air to sound moving air (a pressure wave/explosion). Anything below this level is just soundwave bouncing around the room.

And once again, you are not feeling the sound wave hit you. The sound waves are passing through you and making you vibrate.
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post #1890 of 3120 Old 02-10-2017, 12:09 AM
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The tactile effects I feel from my MBM (and my other subs for that matter) are not localizable at all. I feel it in my body and in my chair from what seem to me equally from all directions, and no direction at all (if that makes sense). If I can localize the MBM, it is just like d00d said, something is not right (gain, crossover, phase).
that sounds quite surprising given that one's body has different sensitivities to different frequencies, strange to me anyway as it's not my experience. TR does seem to be even more subjective than audible sound though
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