Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 3154 Old 06-17-2016, 02:28 AM
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Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response

Yep, I thought it was funny that I could fully place my old sub, bic pl-200, fully into the mouth of the OS that replaced it.

So I have the OS directly behind the middle seat of my couch and it just beats people up. Even when I'm running it only +3db the feeling in your chest/gut is violent.

What I find really odd though is that you don't really feel much of anything in the seating areas to the left and right of center. I would have expected a gradual decrease, but it's far more than that.

Another thing I find odd is that even though it's more visceral in the center seat, it sounds louder on the left and right seats.

*Edit, Btw this is why I asked earlier about running the sub up to the higher frequencies vs having seperate sub/mid bass enclosures. I've ran my sub up to 120hz and it still sounds good IMO. Also, do you have any phase issues running ported mbm to your sealed sub?

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post #212 of 3154 Old 06-17-2016, 10:30 AM
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So I have the OS directly behind the middle seat of my couch and it just beats people up. Even when I'm running it only +3db the feeling in your chest/gut is violent.

What I find really odd though is that you don't really feel much of anything in the seating areas to the left and right of center. I would have expected a gradual decrease, but it's far more than that.

Another thing I find odd is that even though it's more visceral in the center seat, it sounds louder on the left and right seats.
I don't have an OS directly behind me , but I've had a Cap 2400, a Rythmik FV15HP, and now a sealed 18 directly behind me and all slam you hard. I experienced pretty much the same thing as you with the seat to the left and right of the seat with the sub behind it, it was a pretty big let down compared to the seat with the sub behind it (not that it was bad, its just that the seat with sub behind it spoils you rotten and then moving to the other seats just doesn't do it). The sound is still there, but not that violent slam. So for me the way around that was to put one behind each seat ...problem solved!

My 'Blacked Out' Home Theater | Tactile Response for BASS | BassEQ for Filtered Movies
1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.7.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB | Eyes 6.5' to 120" 16:9 AT Seymour Screen | Oppo 203 | Xbox 1X | Apple TV4K | 6x 18" Sealed Subs w/3x VNF | Subwoofer Riser w/6x JBL-12s | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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post #213 of 3154 Old 06-18-2016, 05:29 PM
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Is there any point in buying the 1200D as a subwoofer? i.e. not just for TR to supplement other subs. I have a single 12" sub right now (SVS) and if most of the chest thump can be reproduced by adding this then is it worth it? Or should I save up for a 15"/18" sub instead? But then people with multiple 18's say its not enough...

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post #214 of 3154 Old 06-18-2016, 06:22 PM
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Is there any point in buying the 1200D as a subwoofer? i.e. not just for TR to supplement other subs. I have a single 12" sub right now (SVS) and if most of the chest thump can be reproduced by adding this then is it worth it? Or should I save up for a 15"/18" sub instead? But then people with multiple 18's say its not enough...


I can identify with your feelings. I had 2 15" subs, inadequate. I now have 24" sub with a 4,000 watt amp, not good enough (and I'm quite sure 4 of these would still not satisfy me, and would cost a small fortune). My proposed solution for satisfying bass? 3 1200D's directly behind my front 3 seats, coupled with Crowson Tactile Transducers. I plan to keep my big Mariana 24", but now it is only a part of the bass equation and I'm not depending on it for the full experience. Since the really tactile bass is on the 50-70 HZ range, and I can experience an authentic low bass sensation from the Crowson's, it makes far more sense than adding bigger and more powerful subs in the quest for bass nirvana. As a bonus, I can keep the sub volume at sane levels and still get a powerful, chest-rattling, tactile experience.
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post #215 of 3154 Old 06-18-2016, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I can identify with your feelings. I had 2 15" subs, inadequate. I now have 24" sub with a 4,000 watt amp, not good enough (and I'm quite sure 4 of these would still not satisfy me, and would cost a small fortune). My proposed solution for satisfying bass? 3 1200D's directly behind my front 3 seats, coupled with Crowson Tactile Transducers. I plan to keep my big Mariana 24", but now it is only a part of the bass equation and I'm not depending on it for the full experience. Since the really tactile bass is on the 50-70 HZ range, and I can experience an authentic low bass sensation from the Crowson's, it makes far more sense than adding bigger and more powerful subs in the quest for bass nirvana. As a bonus, I can keep the sub volume at sane levels and still get a powerful, chest-rattling, tactile experience.
Wow...what you just laid out could be the perfect recipe!

Capable sealed farfield to get good FR and PR (pressure/weightiness) down to single digits.

Nearfield MBMs to get massive midbass/kick in the chest.

Fill in the TR for ULF with Crowsons.

I like it...I like it a lot.

The MBMs and Crowsons will probably run you less than another 24...
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post #216 of 3154 Old 06-18-2016, 08:29 PM
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I should point out that every situation is different and if Heathnut were on a suspended floor, the story would likely be completely different.

I look forward to hearing how your system turns out Heathnut, sounds like you're on the right track.

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post #217 of 3154 Old 06-18-2016, 09:40 PM
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I should point out that every situation is different and if Heathnut were on a suspended floor, the story would likely be completely different.

I look forward to hearing how your system turns out Heathnut, sounds like you're on the right track.
Exactly. Lean against your room wall or touch your ceiling or sit on the floor above your basement if your wondering where's the bass, its there. Those walls and ceilings are suspended.

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post #218 of 3154 Old 06-19-2016, 11:29 PM
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I should point out that every situation is different and if Heathnut were on a suspended floor, the story would likely be completely different.

I look forward to hearing how your system turns out Heathnut, sounds like you're on the right track.
Exactly. Lean against your room wall or touch your ceiling or sit on the floor above your basement if your wondering where's the bass, it there. Those walls and ceilings are suspended.
So with the subs behind you on a suspended floor as opposed to the couch touching the floor you get more tactile feel?? I just picked up this couch cheap. So i noticed under each seat i have 6" of clearance. Now if i make a frame another 6" high ill have 12" high I think i can make a 12" deep x 18" wide x 18" long cube under each seat. I might be able to fit 1 sub under the seat and 1 sub behind the back.
Hhmmm. I might be able to feel something with 900 watts to each seat.
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post #219 of 3154 Old 06-21-2016, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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So with the subs behind you on a suspended floor as opposed to the couch touching the floor you get more tactile feel?? I just picked up this couch cheap. So i noticed under each seat i have 6" of clearance. Now if i make a frame another 6" high ill have 12" high I think i can make a 12" deep x 18" wide x 18" long cube under each seat. I might be able to fit 1 sub under the seat and 1 sub behind the back.
Hhmmm. I might be able to feel something with 900 watts to each seat.
Exactly.

@Scott Simonian did this exact thing with great results.

As far as I know, there is no other sub riser in existence...avs wise anyway.
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post #220 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 09:33 AM
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LOL!

There is NO way I have the only subwoofer riser. People have been building those forever. I could be the first one with dual 18's, maybe.

I'm sure there are people here who have some. They just don't participate in our threads.
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post #221 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 10:47 AM
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LOL!

There is NO way I have the only subwoofer riser. People have been building those forever. I could be the first one with dual 18's, maybe.

I'm sure there are people here who have some. They just don't participate in our threads.
I could see why some people would hesitate to do something like that. It mean tearing into your couch. Lol. Which personally i dont mind. I paid 100.00 for the couch. And its just fabric and cheap wood. Nothing you cant buy at a local fabric store or home depot. Im all about modifing stuff.

WOW!!! 18's. You have a massage chair man. Thats awesome.
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post #222 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 10:50 AM
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Huh?

Who is tearing into the couch?
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post #223 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 11:00 AM
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LOL!

There is NO way I have the only subwoofer riser. People have been building those forever. I could be the first one with dual 18's, maybe.

I'm sure there are people here who have some. They just don't participate in our threads.
But your the "Original". About 2005 I built a two step 14" tall riser that had a 2ft X 6ft cutout and I placed a DefTech Supercube in that cutout then an unmodified couch over it. TR was better in the first row chairs than the couch. I don't consider that a sub riser though.
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post #224 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 11:07 AM
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I don't know about "original" but I sure caught a lot of attention with this thing.
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post #225 of 3154 Old 06-22-2016, 12:54 PM
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I'm still waiting on the complete pictorial.
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post #226 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 06:22 AM
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Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response

I thought he came up with the Riser(TM) in 1905, not 2005?
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post #227 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 04:29 PM
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I'm still waiting on the complete pictorial.
Who me? I posted the only three photos I ever took of it way back when I made it. I need to re-post them.

There really was nothing to my riser. Just 2x8's all around. A single 2x4 running down the middle and then topped and bottom with a single full sheet of 3/4" standard ply. Although I had to raise the area where the drivers go with some unused MDF baffles I made (for a sub I never built) because the depth of the drive wouldn't fit. Filled most of the internals with some leftover R13 or R19 or whatever.
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post #228 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 04:35 PM
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post #229 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 04:48 PM
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I see Scott has a nice project underway. Well, I got the first part of the sub project done. Definite increase in mid-bass at the MLP. I'm not using an MBM but, a sub right behind the sectional couch(not the black ones in the back). I can't wait til the other Deep Invader sub is done and then start some VS testing. Operating at 3/4 full strength.

I am definitely getting more of the chest stuff. The phone of the VS testing will need a seatbelt, lol.
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post #230 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 05:16 PM
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Lol, no. That's "finished". Have had it operational for about a year or so now.

But thanks anyway.

Nice new sub, Derrick.
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post #231 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 06:54 PM
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Uhhh...it doesn't get more nearfield than that. I'm guessing you don't need any fiber in your diet?
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post #232 of 3154 Old 06-24-2016, 07:01 PM
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I see Scott has a nice project underway. Well, I got the first part of the sub project done. Definite increase in mid-bass at the MLP. I'm not using an MBM but, a sub right behind the sectional couch(not the black ones in the back). I can't wait til the other Deep Invader sub is done and then start some VS testing. Operating at 3/4 full strength.

I am definitely getting more of the chest stuff. The phone of the VS testing will need a seatbelt, lol.
Nice serious but inviting setup Derrick.
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post #233 of 3154 Old 06-26-2016, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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So I watched Zootopia the other night with the fam...

Did anyone else think that when they played the Shakira theme song "Try Everything" in the beginning and end, the midbass was ran really really hot?

With the 1200D, this is one of those scenes that in my mind doesn't call for it, but the midbass was way overpowering.

I've been trying to get a setting where it works for everything...so I went back to Scuba Steve's demo disk, and fiddled around with level on the 1200D, placement, etc. and played those scenes as well as that Shakira scene.

Conclusion? I don't think it's possible to have a 1 setting fits all for Tactile Response for all content. Why? Because the folks that create the content for these tracks don't consider TR at all in their mix; they have no reference! So while we could replicate what's on the disc from a Frequency Response standpoint, Tactile Response is pure taste and will vary widely with everyone's setup.

So in my setup, I landed on this: For movies that call for the big midbass impact, I turn the 1200D 10db boost at 45-50hz ON. For all other movies, I turn that boost OFF. Zootopia sounds much more natural, but when I turn it on for the right content, I still get that "kick in your chest/loose your breath" feeling.

@coolrda , it would be interesting to hear how this Shakira scene feels with your flat PSD. You'd have to run it with your subs and Crowsons because that midbass is highly audible...but interested what your thoughts are with that scene.
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post #234 of 3154 Old 06-26-2016, 03:20 PM
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Enjoyed the movie. I'll check that part out @dominguez1 .

First, I agree with your conclusion. While the dubbing stages are highly acoustically modified, it's still s room with boundaries. They have the same FR/TR relationship problems we have. I've never found much of any research discussing the Frequency and Tactile responses in a closed environment. Yet everyday here we have post after post of symptoms of this relationships imbalance. My thoughts/guesses were that FR/TR tracked properly in a ground plane environment and @Okv confirmed that was indeed the case. That being said, that is our reference. However, until we go through a GP or DataBass type of measuring process, we won't know for sure what those numbers are. My guess is that the area between our Room Gain(below 15-25hz)and Room Boom(above 30hz)the 15-30hz probably behaves much like an outdoor GP setup would, if that gives you an idea.

There's two types of reference here. True system Calibrated Reference where FR/PR/TR match end to end. Then there Individual pReference where it set according to our likes and tastes. Until we get this all hashed out we don't how reference will feel to us. Maybe the two line up perfectly.

As far as soundtracks go, there will always be differences in volume and dynamics that warrant minor changes/adjustment to suit us.

One thing to remember when using an MBM is that while it can be used very effectively as a TR only component(separate tune ability and strategic placement), it's still an FR/TR component. The deeper I get into this thing, the more it looks like a September TR-only component is a necessity, end to end, not just for ULF. While it true that the MA's and TT's vibrate the seating, and the seating has a FR has a FR because of that, it's 30-40db below the subs output so its of no consequence(exception is above 40hz which I've found can be fixed).
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post #235 of 3154 Old 06-26-2016, 05:55 PM
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In general, at what master volume should I expect a tactile response (TR)? I'm guessing that maybe unless I'm listening at 70 dB or higher, then I shouldn't expect to get TR. But that is just a guess. You all seem likely to know the answer.

And for increasing TR, do you all suggest a MBM or just another subwoofer?

(I asked this in another thread, but no good answers there).
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post #236 of 3154 Old 06-27-2016, 06:25 AM
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Can I do this to "build" my own MBM?

I have an old unused JBL PSW 1200. I haven't used it, since I bought my Seaton MFW15 Turbo SS.

So my idea is to repurpose it as a MBM - IF it is a good idea that might work.

On the subwoofer cable, I add an inline high pass filter. Maybe a 60 Hz. That will attenuate any frequencies below that level. Then on the subwoofer itself, I set the Crossover Filter (which I assume is a low pass filter) to 90. (I can choose values between 90 and 150 Hz).

So the subwoofer would only be concentrating on 60 to 90 Hz, which is where you all say TR takes place.

Do you all think this might work?
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post #237 of 3154 Old 06-27-2016, 09:07 AM
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Can I do this to "build" my own MBM?

I have an old unused JBL PSW 1200. I haven't used it, since I bought my Seaton MFW15 Turbo SS.

So my idea is to repurpose it as a MBM - IF it is a good idea that might work.

On the subwoofer cable, I add an inline high pass filter. Maybe a 60 Hz. That will attenuate any frequencies below that level. Then on the subwoofer itself, I set the Crossover Filter (which I assume is a low pass filter) to 90. (I can choose values between 90 and 150 Hz).

So the subwoofer would only be concentrating on 60 to 90 Hz, which is where you all say TR takes place.

Do you all think this might work?


You really want a proper signal processor like the MiniDSP, and if you want to build it, something designed for the purpose like the Magnum-12 MBM. JBL2226 also is popular. Check out the MBM integration thread by @tuxedocivic if you haven't already.


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post #238 of 3154 Old 07-04-2016, 07:55 AM
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After following this thread about the Beringer 1200D subwoofer used as a mid bass module I became very interested in trying it out. I've always been interested in the idea of a near field MBM. Several others in the thread have multiple or a handful of large subwoofers in their room. I have six fifteens in my theater but never really had the mid bass I was looking for. I also have large mains with fifteen inch woofers. I have tried all sorts of different calibrations and crossovers. I even moved the entire room around which took me nearly two weeks to move everything and rewire the system. The sound improved but I still thought it could be even better. Especially in the music department.

A couple of days ago I got a Beringer 1200D subwoofer. Instead of placing it behind my couch I placed it on the wall just to the right side of my couch. That distance is about 2ft from the LP. The driver and ports are firing across the LP at your feet. I think this is a good way to place these subs versus a rear placement. Placing the MBM behind the couch will work. But I think the couch will act as an absorber. So some of the subs energy is wasted.

Next I got the subwoofer up and running. I was amazed at how well this subwoofer performs. It completely changed the way my system sounds. Now it has very accurate, tight mid bass. One of these subwoofers would of probably done fine. But I decided to add a second Beringer 1200D subwoofer. I placed the second MBM right next to the other one. Adding the second one just put the icing on the cake. Music sounds live. It has a very clean warm sound. You can feel the guitars and the drum kick as well. It wasn't that difficult to blend all of my other subwoofers with the two MBM's.

I highly recommend adding one of these MBM's to your system.
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post #239 of 3154 Old 07-04-2016, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
After following this thread about the Beringer 1200D subwoofer used as a mid bass module I became very interested in trying it out. I've always been interested in the idea of a near field MBM. Several others in the thread have multiple or a handful of large subwoofers in their room. I have six fifteens in my theater but never really had the mid bass I was looking for. I also have large mains with fifteen inch woofers. I have tried all sorts of different calibrations and crossovers. I even moved the entire room around which took me nearly two weeks to move everything and rewire the system. The sound improved but I still thought it could be even better. Especially in the music department.

A couple of days ago I got a Beringer 1200D subwoofer. Instead of placing it behind my couch I placed it on the wall just to the right side of my couch. That distance is about 2ft from the LP. The driver and ports are firing across the LP at your feet. I think this is a good way to place these subs versus a rear placement. Placing the MBM behind the couch will work. But I think the couch will act as an absorber. So some of the subs energy is wasted.

Next I got the subwoofer up and running. I was amazed at how well this subwoofer performs. It completely changed the way my system sounds. Now it has very accurate, tight mid bass. One of these subwoofers would of probably done fine. But I decided to add a second Beringer 1200D subwoofer. I placed the second MBM right next to the other one. Adding the second one just put the icing on the cake. Music sounds live. It has a very clean warm sound. You can feel the guitars and the drum kick as well. It wasn't that difficult to blend all of my other subwoofers with the two MBM's.

I highly recommend adding one of these MBM's to your system.
Very cool! These are really good at what they do, aren't they?

Have any pics?

Did you ever try one of your subs in the same position?
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post #240 of 3154 Old 07-04-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Very cool! These are really good at what they do, aren't they?



Have any pics?



Did you ever try one of your subs in the same position?


Very glad to read your comments, as I am also planning on adding these. How did you dial them in and integrate them?


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