Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1715Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2851 of 3120 Old 12-15-2017, 06:29 PM
Senior Member
 
banyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 87
can someone guide me please?
banyar is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2852 of 3120 Old 12-17-2017, 09:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 271
this is more of a general question that deals with tactile motion as compared to Midbass. Would a sub provide more tactile when its on the floor vs on top of another sub? Please note that I'm not talking about sub at NF but like 15 feet away.
harrisu is offline  
post #2853 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 09:53 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post
can someone guide me please?
Beyond my previous response, what exactly do you need guidance with?
Alan P is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2854 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 09:56 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
this is more of a general question that deals with tactile motion as compared to Midbass. Would a sub provide more tactile when its on the floor vs on top of another sub? Please note that I'm not talking about sub at NF but like 15 feet away.
The is nothing inherently advantageous about stacking subs that would increase TR besides the inherent gain in dB. The sub on the floor would theoretically provide more TR since it would benefit from more boundary gain (the floor). The best way to increase TR is to place the sub (or subs) nearfield.
Alan P is offline  
post #2855 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 10:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The is nothing inherently advantageous about stacking subs that would increase TR besides the inherent gain in dB. The sub on the floor would theoretically provide more TR since it would benefit from more boundary gain (the floor). The best way to increase TR is to place the sub (or subs) nearfield.
Got it thx. I moved the sub on the floor. Will try that out. I agree that when sub is placed NF, I'd get the best TR but in my experience so far, it gives too much of TR The main reason I wanted to place sub NF was to get the chest slam. I didn't get it but instead I got more TR. That more TR translated into more shake which reduced the hearing of bass and also reduction the chest slam (what ever I was getting). I did dial the NF sub to play along with my existing subs using delay/gain but I never got the chest slam. I really wish if there was someone in NJ/NY/PA that claims to have great chest slam so that I can experience it and try to reproduce it. At this point, all I konw is the term and assume that its more of a chest impact that makes you break slower (or faster may be) and you feel it in your chest.
harrisu is offline  
post #2856 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 03:07 PM
Senior Member
 
banyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post
can someone guide me please?
Beyond my previous response, what exactly do you need guidance with?
thanks for the reply alan,

i need to know what to do first, wich would be the sequence:

run audyssey, run sweeps fron REW, make measurements with the miniDSP?
banyar is online now  
post #2857 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 03:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
^^^

Maybe you should re-read my post above.

We need to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish before we can give you any steps to follow. In particular, we need to know the answers to my questions in that previous post:

Quote:
First of all, what are you planning to do with the MiniDSP? Are you going to use it for the 1200D only, or are you planning on EQ'ing your current subs as well?
And, two more questions; does your AVR have Audyssey XT32? If so, are you using both sub outs for your current subs?
Alan P is offline  
post #2858 of 3120 Old 12-18-2017, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
banyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Maybe you should re-read my post above. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

We need to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish before we can give you any steps to follow. In particular, we need to know the answers to my questions in that previous post:

Quote:
First of all, what are you planning to do with the MiniDSP? Are you going to use it for the 1200D only, or are you planning on EQ'ing your current subs as well?
And, two more questions; does your AVR have Audyssey XT32? If so, are you using both sub outs for your current subs?
i'm planning to EQ'ing all the subs, my current dual Rythmiks in front wall and the new 1200D in the back wall

my AVR have Audyssey MultEQ (Denon S720w)

i'm using both sub outs.

Last edited by banyar; 12-18-2017 at 04:50 PM.
banyar is online now  
post #2859 of 3120 Old 12-19-2017, 08:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Here's a very good setup guide by forum member @neutro :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html

And another written by @AustinJerry :

How to Time-Align Multiple Subs on a Single Output Channel


You may want to post in the MiniDSP thread. The guys over there know more than I do about it.

Basically, you would feed the MiniDSP with a single sub output from your AVR, then connect the subs to the MiniDSP. You would then run REW sweeps on the individual subs to create EQ filters for each, then run Audyssey, then check the results with REW and tweak as necessary.
Marc Alexander likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #2860 of 3120 Old 12-21-2017, 06:32 PM
Senior Member
 
banyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Here's a very good setup guide by forum member @neutro :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html

And another written by @AustinJerry :

How to Time-Align Multiple Subs on a Single Output Channel


You may want to post in the MiniDSP thread. The guys over there know more than I do about it. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Basically, you would feed the MiniDSP with a single sub output from your AVR, then connect the subs to the MiniDSP. You would then run REW sweeps on the individual subs to create EQ filters for each, then run Audyssey, then check the results with REW and tweak as necessary.
thanks a lot alan

I read a lot about REW and I already made several measurements, I imported them to the miniDSP but the subs does not sound when they are connected to the miniDSP... only the speakers.

will my receiver's subwoofer inputs not be compatible with the miniDSP voltage? i have a denon s720w.
banyar is online now  
post #2861 of 3120 Old 12-22-2017, 05:15 PM
Senior Member
 
banyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post
thanks a lot alan

I read a lot about REW and I already made several measurements, I imported them to the miniDSP but the subs does not sound when they are connected to the miniDSP... only the speakers.

will my receiver's subwoofer inputs not be compatible with the miniDSP voltage? i have a denon s720w.
ok, I solved the problem, the main volume in the miniDSP was set too low and the subs did not emit any sound.

thanks Alan
Alan P likes this.
banyar is online now  
post #2862 of 3120 Old 01-22-2018, 02:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 271
@SBuger , @Alan P , @Marc Alexander and others:

Please let me share my very recent experience with this BAD ASS 1200D sub. As some of you already know that I have been trying to get this chest slam for a while and wasn't successful.

I tried MBM NF on the floor, 1' higher, VNF facing right towards my chest and what not. Tried better integration, delays but I wasn't getting what I was looking for UNTIL NOW. I have been told that one needs to overlook FR when it comes to NF placement. So in my last experiment, I did just that. I completely ignored the Fr and placed it NF and tried 1200D on its own. It provided greate tactile but not the chest salm I was looking for. This clean hit in the chest that I was looking for. So I finally thought that its really not possible to me to get it or I'm may be thinking of getting that hit that may be just doesn't exist in Home threater. But then I know many have experienced it here.

Finally, decided to see what FR looks like it had a dip starting from 65Hz. FR should be going to 50 but it was dropping because of room mode. I thought, instead of keeping it NF, what if I place it somewhere it has flat response. MLP is 56" away from back wall and my main subs are 75" away on each side of MLP. The back wall is empty besides the entrance door. So I placed the sub closest to door entry to keep it as close to MLP as possible. This is 50" away from MLP. First try and perfect. A flat response. no dips. Perfect. Let's try it out. Turned on 1200 along with my main subs and right away noticed this kick in the chest. Wait.. I'm confused. 1200D is not even NF at this point. Its 50" away from MLP. Even then, it provided this very clean kick in the chest. Please note that I haven't done extensive testing but playing TRON clips from Bass Demo disc had never sounded so well and with the hit in the chest. So there it is. Now I know what you all have been talking about. I"m sure its a lot more in your cases since you all have it placed NF.

I won't say that its very chest pounding yet but I'm off to a good start. Gain on 1200D was set in the middle and sub trim in avr is at 0. So I have to play around with it to increase the imapact. But the imapact is there now and its a matter of adjusting it. Also main FR of all subs together is flat as well. MB integrated very well when it had its own FR.

First off, what changed??? Two possibilites
1 - Flat response from MBM made 50-65 Hz produced that changed it.
2 - If its not the Flat response then may be it was too much tactile for me when it was NF and I was just not able to hear it because of that.

What do you guys think????

Finally, let's turn our attention to main subs now. The fact that I couldn't get that impact from my main subs made me worry. Why couldn't my main subs do that???? I thought that may be its the FR and if I can produce the same FR from my mains only as I have with main subs+1200D, it might produce the same sound. So I fired up REW, took FR at MLP with 1200D included, then adjusted the curve in Dirac for my mains and was able to get the same FR with only mains (without 1200D). Time to test and see if my main subs can do that. Nope. Missing it. This clearly shows that my main subs don't hit as hard and clean as this little guy does in Midbass reagion. Main subs do great for low frequencies though. What does this mean????? Does it mean that my main subs are weak in MidBass range???????
SBuger likes this.

Last edited by harrisu; 01-22-2018 at 02:54 PM.
harrisu is offline  
post #2863 of 3120 Old 01-22-2018, 03:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,208
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2541 Post(s)
Liked: 2186
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
@SBuger , @Alan P , @Marc Alexander and others:

Please let me share my very recent experience with this BAD ASS 1200D sub. As some of you already know that I have been trying to get this chest slam for a while and wasn't successful.

I tried MBM NF on the floor, 1' higher, VNF facing right towards my chest and what not. Tried better integration, delays but I wasn't getting what I was looking for UNTIL NOW. I have been told that one needs to overlook FR when it comes to NF placement. So in my last experiment, I did just that. I completely ignored the Fr and placed it NF and tried 1200D on its own. It provided greate tactile but not the chest salm I was looking for. This clean hit in the chest that I was looking for. So I finally thought that its really not possible to me to get it or I'm may be thinking of getting that hit that may be just doesn't exist in Home threater. But then I know many have experienced it here.

Finally, decided to see what FR looks like it had a dip starting from 65Hz. FR should be going to 50 but it was dropping because of room mode. I thought, instead of keeping it NF, what if I place it somewhere it has flat response. MLP is 56" away from back wall and my main subs are 75" away on each side of MLP. The back wall is empty besides the entrance door. So I placed the sub closest to door entry to keep it as close to MLP as possible. This is 50" away from MLP. First try and perfect. A flat response. no dips. Perfect. Let's try it out. Turned on 1200 along with my main subs and right away noticed this kick in the chest. Wait.. I'm confused. 1200D is not even NF at this point. Its 50" away from MLP. Even then, it provided this very clean kick in the chest. Please note that I haven't done extensive testing but playing TRON clips from Bass Demo disc had never sounded so well and with the hit in the chest. So there it is. Now I know what you all have been talking about. I"m sure its a lot more in your cases since you all have it placed NF.

I won't say that its very chest pounding yet but I'm off to a good start. Gain on 1200D was set in the middle and sub trim in avr is at 0. So I have to play around with it to increase the imapact. But the imapact is there now and its a matter of adjusting it. Also main FR of all subs together is flat as well. MB integrated very well when it had its own FR.

First off, what changed??? Two possibilites
1 - Flat response from MBM made 50-65 Hz produced that changed it.
2 - If its not the Flat response then may be it was too much tactile for me when it was NF and I was just not able to hear it because of that.

What do you guys think????

Finally, let's turn our attention to main subs now. The fact that I couldn't get that impact from my main subs made me worry. Why couldn't my main subs do that???? I thought that may be its the FR and if I can produce the same FR from my mains only as I have with main subs+1200D, it might produce the same sound. So I fired up REW, took FR at MLP with 1200D included, then adjusted the curve in Dirac for my mains and was able to get the same FR with only mains (without 1200D). Time to test and see if my main subs can do that. Nope. Missing it. This clearly shows that my main subs don't hit as hard and clean as this little guy does in Midbass reagion. Main subs do great for low frequencies though. What does this mean????? Does it mean that my main subs are weak in MidBass range???????
Yeap, the 1200D is tuned at ~60hz midbass region. My FV15 pair alone does not provide that mid bass punch sensations. Thor Ragnarok has lots of midbass awesomeness.

Last edited by tvuong; 01-22-2018 at 03:06 PM.
tvuong is online now  
post #2864 of 3120 Old 01-22-2018, 04:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Now you got me thinking about moving the 1200D further away...I'm an easily influenced tweak-aholic.

What the hell, it's worth a try and costs me nothing!
unretarded likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #2865 of 3120 Old 01-22-2018, 04:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Yeap, the 1200D is tuned at ~60hz midbass region. My FV15 pair alone does not provide that mid bass punch sensations. Thor Ragnarok has lots of midbass awesomeness.
So all these amazing subs can't give us the chest slam and a 300.00 sub can???? Sub Like Cap 1400 with all the raving reviews can rumble your house but can't give you a chest slam? Does a sub have to have a port tuned around 50-60 to do that? If yes then what having a sub tuned to 50-60 does that causes it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Now you got me thinking about moving the 1200D further away...I'm an easily influenced tweak-aholic.

What the hell, it's worth a try and costs me nothing!
Where did you have it before? Weren't you happy with result or just wondering if it can get better? Please do update us with you results.
harrisu is offline  
post #2866 of 3120 Old 01-23-2018, 08:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SBuger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 2,142
Mentioned: 322 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked: 3597
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
@SBuger , @Alan P , @Marc Alexander and others:

Please let me share my very recent experience with this BAD ASS 1200D sub. As some of you already know that I have been trying to get this chest slam for a while and wasn't successful.

I tried MBM NF on the floor, 1' higher, VNF facing right towards my chest and what not. Tried better integration, delays but I wasn't getting what I was looking for UNTIL NOW. I have been told that one needs to overlook FR when it comes to NF placement. So in my last experiment, I did just that. I completely ignored the Fr and placed it NF and tried 1200D on its own. It provided greate tactile but not the chest salm I was looking for. This clean hit in the chest that I was looking for. So I finally thought that its really not possible to me to get it or I'm may be thinking of getting that hit that may be just doesn't exist in Home threater. But then I know many have experienced it here.

Finally, decided to see what FR looks like it had a dip starting from 65Hz. FR should be going to 50 but it was dropping because of room mode. I thought, instead of keeping it NF, what if I place it somewhere it has flat response. MLP is 56" away from back wall and my main subs are 75" away on each side of MLP. The back wall is empty besides the entrance door. So I placed the sub closest to door entry to keep it as close to MLP as possible. This is 50" away from MLP. First try and perfect. A flat response. no dips. Perfect. Let's try it out. Turned on 1200 along with my main subs and right away noticed this kick in the chest. Wait.. I'm confused. 1200D is not even NF at this point. Its 50" away from MLP. Even then, it provided this very clean kick in the chest. Please note that I haven't done extensive testing but playing TRON clips from Bass Demo disc had never sounded so well and with the hit in the chest. So there it is. Now I know what you all have been talking about. I"m sure its a lot more in your cases since you all have it placed NF.

I won't say that its very chest pounding yet but I'm off to a good start. Gain on 1200D was set in the middle and sub trim in avr is at 0. So I have to play around with it to increase the imapact. But the imapact is there now and its a matter of adjusting it. Also main FR of all subs together is flat as well. MB integrated very well when it had its own FR.

First off, what changed??? Two possibilites
1 - Flat response from MBM made 50-65 Hz produced that changed it.
2 - If its not the Flat response then may be it was too much tactile for me when it was NF and I was just not able to hear it because of that.

What do you guys think????

Finally, let's turn our attention to main subs now. The fact that I couldn't get that impact from my main subs made me worry. Why couldn't my main subs do that???? I thought that may be its the FR and if I can produce the same FR from my mains only as I have with main subs+1200D, it might produce the same sound. So I fired up REW, took FR at MLP with 1200D included, then adjusted the curve in Dirac for my mains and was able to get the same FR with only mains (without 1200D). Time to test and see if my main subs can do that. Nope. Missing it. This clearly shows that my main subs don't hit as hard and clean as this little guy does in Midbass reagion. Main subs do great for low frequencies though. What does this mean????? Does it mean that my main subs are weak in MidBass range???????
Nice find! So glad to hear your getting that kick in the chest you were looking for now!

Sounds like even with the mbm that FR is key for you in that 50-65hz range, even if it's further away from you. Then compared to your normal subs, makes the difference as well even with comparable FR in this area.

Also, with the 1200d right behind you in combo with the dip, it sounds like its' still just too much shake/tactile for you and not enough kick (and probably sound), especially with the dip in the 50-65hz region. Makes sense and sounds like have found the solution. Awesome!!

Not sure if this means your main subs could be better in this region or not. Possibly, and that your subs wheelhouse of power is down lower, and the reason they seem to excel with lower bass and not so much the mid bass area. And/Or maybe just really reinforces, that tuning around port (this 50hz area on the mbm), really does make a difference, in this case chest slam.
unretarded likes this.

My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
SBuger is offline  
post #2867 of 3120 Old 01-23-2018, 08:53 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
^^^

I've never got as much chest-slam as I would prefer...have always just assumed it's my room. Don't get me wrong, the 1200D definitely adds to the effect, but I'm always up for trying to improve things.

Currently, the 1200D is on the floor about 4" behind my recliner, firing directly into my back/butt. Last night I tried moving it into the corner next to one of my rear S3000s...but, I didn't get much time to evaluate the new placement because I was also working on time-aligning my new Crowsons...and in that process, I have found that my main subs don't seem to be working together as well as they could. I am going to have to do a serious time-alignment of all subs/MBM/Crowsons to make sure the whole system is in synergy and I'm going to need a whole day to get the REW rig out for that process.

I need a job that lets me work from home.
unretarded likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #2868 of 3120 Old 01-23-2018, 11:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,654
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2363 Post(s)
Liked: 1988
No, you need a job that lets you not work.

Don't we all!

Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #2869 of 3120 Old 01-23-2018, 10:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Brazle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 379
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 196
@harrisu
My guess is time alignment. Having them NF put the time alignment off with your other subs (or maybe even mains) but moving them put them in a "better" time alignment for FR AND chest slam. Sounds like you found an easy fix! Nice!
darrellh44 likes this.

HT setup: Vizio 50" 4K | Xbox & PS3 | Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX | Bose 701 towers (V1) | JBL S Center | Def Tech Reference SuperCube & DIY Nearfield cabinet ported UM18 dual ported PA380 ULF+MBM
Brazle is offline  
post #2870 of 3120 Old 01-24-2018, 10:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
@harrisu
My guess is time alignment. Having them NF put the time alignment off with your other subs (or maybe even mains) but moving them put them in a "better" time alignment for FR AND chest slam. Sounds like you found an easy fix! Nice!
When I had MBM NF, I did time align it by taking impulse response. Right now when the sub is placed 56" away from MLP, its still not at same distance as main subs. Main are 75" away. There is some distance b/w them. When I align MBM with main subs, they don't sound well. Having a delay of 5ms produced the best sound. Aligning their phases doesn't. I came to conclusion of 5ms by not aligning their impluse but by taking fr with different delays and seeing which one gives the best response. 5ms adds 3db right around 50Hz.

May be if I place it NF and then time align such that same fr can be achieved, I might get similar results. But problem with having it NF is that first it starts shaking more than giving the chest slam and 2nd the FR of MBM itself is not flat at NF. Having it 50" away gives a flat response.
harrisu is offline  
post #2871 of 3120 Old 01-24-2018, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Brazle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 379
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
When I had MBM NF, I did time align it by taking impulse response. Right now when the sub is placed 56" away from MLP, its still not at same distance as main subs. Main are 75" away. There is some distance b/w them. When I align MBM with main subs, they don't sound well. Having a delay of 5ms produced the best sound. Aligning their phases doesn't. I came to conclusion of 5ms by not aligning their impluse but by taking fr with different delays and seeing which one gives the best response. 5ms adds 3db right around 50Hz.

May be if I place it NF and then time align such that same fr can be achieved, I might get similar results. But problem with having it NF is that first it starts shaking more than giving the chest slam and 2nd the FR of MBM itself is not flat at NF. Having it 50" away gives a flat response.
Yea, there was a lot of discussion somewhere about getting more tactile response by "mis-adjusting" the time alignment. Can't remember if it was Sbuger or someone else. But it seemed like getting the "out-of-phaseness" just right was key to getting some serious TR improvement.

HT setup: Vizio 50" 4K | Xbox & PS3 | Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX | Bose 701 towers (V1) | JBL S Center | Def Tech Reference SuperCube & DIY Nearfield cabinet ported UM18 dual ported PA380 ULF+MBM
Brazle is offline  
post #2872 of 3120 Old 01-24-2018, 05:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
darrellh44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: North Dallas
Posts: 1,533
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1033 Post(s)
Liked: 499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
Yea, there was a lot of discussion somewhere about getting more tactile response by "mis-adjusting" the time alignment. Can't remember if it was Sbuger or someone else. But it seemed like getting the "out-of-phaseness" just right was key to getting some serious TR improvement.
Are you talking about the 'trick' where you intentionally set the MBM 180 deg out-of-phase with the main subs to get SPL cancellation, but then add boost where the mains/MBM overlap? That way you would get more TR from the NF MBM, but less SPL where they overlap. I read this a few months ago somewhere, so may not be remembering it exactly right.
Brazle likes this.

darrellh44's Home Theater
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

"Faith is not about everything turning out OK, Faith is being OK no matter how things turn out".
darrellh44 is offline  
post #2873 of 3120 Old 01-25-2018, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Are you talking about the 'trick' where you intentionally set the MBM 180 deg out-of-phase with the main subs to get SPL cancellation, but then add boost where the mains/MBM overlap? That way you would get more TR from the NF MBM, but less SPL where they overlap. I read this a few months ago somewhere, so may not be remembering it exactly right.
This is how my 1200D is setup and it works great!
Alan P is offline  
post #2874 of 3120 Old 01-31-2018, 11:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Awesome thread! but boy is it long! I've read every single post while having coffee every morning for the past two weeks, so hopefully, I'll not ask any redundant questions.

I'm about to embark on an MBM journey of my own, but wanted to see if others had already tried some of these options and just not posted yet.

First, background: I have a very complex 5.2.4 setup with active L/C/R driven by a DBX DriveRack 4800 speaker processor, Marantz AV8802 pre-pro and I have Audyssey Pro. Current DIY subs are a 4x15 IB and a UM18 based sub in a 15CuFt sealed enclosure driven by a Crown XLS2500 bridged. Subs are at mid-point of front wall (IB) and mid-point of back wall. Room is 15x26x10 dedicated HT with floated floor (over a crawl space with equal volume as room, thus perfect IB rear chamber). Room has extensive Acoustic treatments, I mean a literal ton of them. Bass decay is very clean.

I have good ULF performance, and thanks to IB rear chamber being beneath the floor, lots of TR down low. What is missing is the mid-bass at the MLP, partially due to unfortunate room nulls in the 50 to 70Hz range where seating is, and partially due to my huge Electrostatic panels overpowering the woofers on the L/R at higher volumes.

To fix the later issue, I am about to deploy a pair of MBM where MB = 50 - 250Hz, and location is right next to the L/R Monoliths. I'll be using the DriveRack 4800 speaker processor to create a new bandpass specifically for the front MBM to operate from 55 to 250Hz. The box is the same Goldwood 12” ported 1.5CuFt box suggested earlier in this thread. The driver is a HiVi M12 (Al/Mg cone) designed to have very clean upper bass performance for good SQ at crossover to the ESL panel.
I have these built, and will test them as NF MBM just for grins this weekend. Here’s a pic of them next to the Monolith and its aftermarket Eminence woofer (covering 60-300Hz) I put in a decade or so ago.



The plan is to build / buy a NF MBM and place directly behind MLP Ekorness recliner. Since going to subs >2, will deploy either a MiniDSP HD or a DBX DriverRack Venue360 for EQ/Delay/etc. and present Audy a single optimized sub channel. Might even build out a second (have the box, not the driver or amp) UM18 based 15CuFt sealed to place side-wall parallel to MLP to fill in some nulls and give MSO more to work with.

My questions are:

Has anyone tried that Goldwood box + a Dayton PA310 (or equivalent) as a NF MBM focused on 50-100Hz?

Besides the DIYSG MBM described earlier in the thread, any other deployments of that MBM?

I kind of prefer to have the amps in the AC cooled equipment room along with the rest of the gear. But if I must, can do the pro-sound PA subs with built in amps as long as no fans. Suggestions welcome.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	MBMpic.jpg
Views:	383
Size:	126.5 KB
ID:	2354404  

Jonathan

Last edited by JonFo; 01-31-2018 at 03:31 PM.
JonFo is offline  
post #2875 of 3120 Old 01-31-2018, 11:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Since I know you guys enjoy audio p0rn, here is a gratuitous pic of my custom 4x15" IB (the first ever in-room manifold) and custom ESL Center channel (build thread). Missing in the pic are the full-coverage room treatments on the front wall behind the gear, and of course, the acoustically transparent screen.

For reference, the IB/center is a total of 6' tall by 2' wide, same as the L/R monoliths (actually they are 27" wide, panels are 24" wide x4 8" tall), gives a new meaning to 'wall of sound'

Since this is an MBM thread, that sealed line of array of Adire Extremis 7" drivers can really put out mid-bass like you would not believe, and super clean. It's driven by 2x200w (three woofers per channel), so even though line-arrays project more energy farfield, I have a room-induced null at the MLP So NF MBM is being researched and planned as well as the FF MBM augmentation for the L/R so they keep up with the line array.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Final3QtrView_sml.JPG
Views:	7
Size:	80.3 KB
ID:	2423476  

Jonathan

Last edited by JonFo; 07-02-2018 at 03:11 PM.
JonFo is offline  
post #2876 of 3120 Old 02-02-2018, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,345
Mentioned: 163 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Awesome thread! but boy is it long! I've read every single post while having coffee every morning for the past two weeks, so hopefully, I'll not ask any redundant questions.

I'm about to embark on an MBM journey of my own, but wanted to see if others had already tried some of these options and just not posted yet.

First, background: I have a very complex 5.2.4 setup with active L/C/R driven by a DBX DriveRack 4800 speaker processor, Marantz AV8802 pre-pro and I have Audyssey Pro. Current DIY subs are a 4x15 IB and a UM18 based sub in a 15CuFt sealed enclosure driven by a Crown XLS2500 bridged. Subs are at mid-point of front wall (IB) and mid-point of back wall. Room is 15x26x10 dedicated HT with floated floor (over a crawl space with equal volume as room, thus perfect IB rear chamber). Room has extensive Acoustic treatments, I mean a literal ton of them. Bass decay is very clean.

I have good ULF performance, and thanks to IB rear chamber being beneath the floor, lots of TR down low. What is missing is the mid-bass at the MLP, partially due to unfortunate room nulls in the 50 to 70Hz range where seating is, and partially due to my huge Electrostatic panels overpowering the woofers on the L/R at higher volumes.

To fix the later issue, I am about to deploy a pair of MBM where MB = 50 - 250Hz, and location is right next to the L/R Monoliths. I'll be using the DriveRack 4800 speaker processor to create a new bandpass specifically for the front MBM to operate from 55 to 250Hz. The box is the same Goldwood 12” ported 1.5CuFt box suggested earlier in this thread. The driver is a HiVi M12 (Al/Mg cone) designed to have very clean upper bass performance for good SQ at crossover to the ESL panel.
I have these built, and will test them as NF MBM just for grins this weekend. Here’s a pic of them next to the Monolith and its aftermarket Eminence woofer (covering 60-300Hz) I put in a decade or so ago.



The plan is to build / buy a NF MBM and place directly behind MLP Ekorness recliner. Since going to subs >2, will deploy either a MiniDSP HD or a DBX DriverRack Venue360 for EQ/Delay/etc. and present Audy a single optimized sub channel. Might even build out a second (have the box, not the driver or amp) UM18 based 15CuFt sealed to place side-wall parallel to MLP to fill in some nulls and give MSO more to work with.

My questions are:

Has anyone tried that Goldwood box + a Dayton PA310 (or equivalent) as a NF MBM focused on 50-100Hz?

Besides the DIYSG MBM described earlier in the thread, any other deployments of that MBM?

I kind of prefer to have the amps in the AC cooled equipment room along with the rest of the gear. But if I must, can do the pro-sound PA subs with built in amps as long as no fans. Suggestions welcome.
Good post! Thanks for sharing your journey.

Sounds like you're doing all the rights things to optimize TR. Love the IB rear chamber underneath the floor...combined with your floating floor!

So in the next week or so, you're going to be adding 3 MBMs to your system? Two up front, and one NF behind you? Will it be NF or VNF (inches) away from your seat?

Re: your questions: while we get a lot of DIY'rs visiting this thread, you might have more luck with specific builds in the DIY section...but definitely post back with your impressions, and help with optimization.

-Dom
dominguez1 is offline  
post #2877 of 3120 Old 02-04-2018, 11:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Good post! Thanks for sharing your journey.

Sounds like you're doing all the rights things to optimize TR. Love the IB rear chamber underneath the floor...combined with your floating floor!
Thanks Dom. Yes, looking to optimize TR at MLP as well as fill a room null there with a unit placed close to the MLP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
So in the next week or so, you're going to be adding 3 MBMs to your system? Two up front, and one NF behind you? Will it be NF or VNF (inches) away from your seat?
...

-Dom
Basically, yes. I just tested the pictured MBM placed near my MLP recliner, and it is inches away when I recline for the typical movie viewing position.

In some testing I did yesterday, it sure adds the TR on both movies and music. But the timing integration was not quite satisfactory (I guesstimated delay), so this morning I spent some time measuring and getting the Frequency response right, and next week I'll focus on the timing, although I did tweak it today, and seems improved. But until I fully measure, I won't know what further changes are required.

Here is nearfield measure of the MBM, and it shows the 60Hz resonance peak this particular driver/cabinet combo have, and even that is already knocked down by the EQ.
I have a 48dB/octave LR high pass on it, and the effect of the preamps, 80Hz low-pass sub crossover is affecting the upper end response.



And this is the response at the MLP itself:



And the waterfall shows very good decay, and the THD is 0.13% at this level, this driver is very clean:



And finally the response with Audyssey engaged:




So enough of this, off to watch a movie
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	MBM-CloseMic.jpg
Views:	313
Size:	52.9 KB
ID:	2356168   Click image for larger version

Name:	MBMAtMLP.jpg
Views:	299
Size:	52.1 KB
ID:	2356174   Click image for larger version

Name:	MBMatMLPWaterfall.jpg
Views:	314
Size:	101.4 KB
ID:	2356176   Click image for larger version

Name:	MBMAtMLP-AudyOn.jpg
Views:	309
Size:	55.3 KB
ID:	2356178  

Jonathan
JonFo is offline  
post #2878 of 3120 Old 02-20-2018, 05:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
Soupy1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St Louis Metro (IL.)
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 349
I haven't kept up with this thread. Is anyone else having problems with their EUROLIVE B1200D? I have two of them and haven't used the theater room in awhile. I just noticed neighter one is powering on. I replaced the fuze with no luck. I didn't know I was supposed to register these. I bought them both in July 2016, Just over 1 1/2 years. I setn a service request off to Behringer, hopefully they will cover them.

Denon X6200W - Klipsch KLF-10 Fronts - Klipsch KLF-C7 Center - Klipsch KLF-C7 X 2 Surrounds - Klipsch RB-61 II Back surround -OSD ACE850 ceiling x 4 Atmos - Dual HSU VTF-3 MK4 Subs - 4 Dayton Audio BST-1 Bass Shakers with SA230 Amp - BenQ W1070 projector - 106" Antra fixed Screen
Soupy1970 is offline  
post #2879 of 3120 Old 02-21-2018, 09:28 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,411
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5366
^^^

Just went through the same thing a few months back. My B1200D wouldn't power on and I didn't register mine either. It was about two moths past the standard one year warranty, but they replaced the amp for me anyways. I did have to pay to have it shipped to a service center though, about $60.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55266492
Soupy1970 likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #2880 of 3120 Old 02-21-2018, 11:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
Soupy1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St Louis Metro (IL.)
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Just went through the same thing a few months back. My B1200D wouldn't power on and I didn't register mine either. It was about two moths past the standard one year warranty, but they replaced the amp for me anyways. I did have to pay to have it shipped to a service center though, about $60.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55266492
Alan, Did your responce look similar to this? I can't tell if they are going to cover them or not? They sent an RA# but in the responce mention that warranty is 1 year from date of purchase. I'm just a little confused if this is a warranty exceptance, or if I'll get billed.

Regarding your inquiry: Service Request.
Thank you for your patience while we process your warranty claim.



For the repair of your B1200D-Pro please find the Authorized Service Center information below along with the RA# and instructions.



Product and Serial Number:



B1200D-Pro - ***********

B1200D-Pro - ***********



Return Authorization Number: ********



Service Center Address:



Electronic Express

1809 E. Fabyan Parkway

West Chicago, IL 60185

United States

Phone: +1 (630) 208-4600



Please provide the RA# along with a quick description of the fault to the assigned Service Center for their reference, along with your daytime telephone number.



If you are shipping your unit to the service center, please write the RA# clearly on the exterior of the box, and make sure the unit is shipped in an appropriate shipping box and packaging materials. Please make sure to include the power supply or cable (if included) that comes with the unit so we can test your unit with your equipment.



Warranty is covered for any manufacturing defects within the first year from the date of purchase from an authorized MUSIC Group dealer. Your warranty includes parts and labor as well as return shipping to you after the repair is completed. Please make sure your unit is delivered to the service center in an appropriate shipping box with adequate packaging in case the unit needs to be shipped. It is your responsibility to see that the unit is delivered to the service center in a safe manner. If the technicians cannot find anything wrong with the unit then it will be shipped back to you in the same condition it was received, and you will be responsible for the return shipping cost.





If you have any questions or problems regarding your warranty service, please don't hesitate to contact us. Please use email address: [email protected] Anyone in Customer Care will be glad to assist you.

Thank you again for contacting us and please let me know if I can be of further assistance or if you have any further question. Alternatively please visit our website for support and further information.

Kind regards
Matt Carlos
Your Specialist, CARE
MUSIC
Tel:
Web: www.music-group.com
This email is intended exclusively for the addressee(s) named above and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not (among) the intended recipient(s), you may not copy, utilize or distribute any of the information contained herein. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately via return email and delete the original from your mailbox. Thank you.

Denon X6200W - Klipsch KLF-10 Fronts - Klipsch KLF-C7 Center - Klipsch KLF-C7 X 2 Surrounds - Klipsch RB-61 II Back surround -OSD ACE850 ceiling x 4 Atmos - Dual HSU VTF-3 MK4 Subs - 4 Dayton Audio BST-1 Bass Shakers with SA230 Amp - BenQ W1070 projector - 106" Antra fixed Screen
Soupy1970 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off